“You start your franchise with a quarterback. Your fans identify with your quarterback” - George Young |
In response to critics who said that Simms was a late first round pick, Young countered by saying he didn't have a late first round pick so what difference did it make? He needed to make the selection earlier. I love that. A first round QB is a first round QB. Draft the QB at 6 if you have the first round grade on him.
Video clip linked below. And I also agree with Young on this still today. You need a QB and a pass rush. The Giants have 4 lombardi trophies in the case thanks to that philosophy.
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You start with the QB. If they know in their hearts, they can't win with Jones, then they HAVE to draft a QB.
You can get on Gettleman for arriving at the grade after watching a drive at the senior bowl. But, if you hit on the QB, it doesn't matter where in the first they are drafted.
I never understood on liking a QB to draft at 20, but not at 6. What's the difference?
Well, Gettleman had another 1st round pick that year if we’re splitting hairs. Jones was the wrong guy anyway and it ultimately wouldn’t matter but they could have picked him later.
I believe in the spirit of the quote though. If you’re convinced, it shouldn’t matter. People make too much of where players are picked in general. You don’t want to be rounds too early, but if you are some picks early and the guy is a player, who cares?
People bitched about the Lions draft last year as it was unfolding. A lot of experts yelling about them taking guys too early. Looking back a year later, they nailed all of those picks.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
But if you are drafting your 3rd ranked QB at 6, it's probably a bad move since QBs success rates are so low and there most likely will be a top rated player available. I havent looked at the draft much but aside from QB, Im sure there are 5-6 top position players available worthy of that spot.
If you are going to get a QB then get the one you want, not whats left. I dont agree with drafting a QB this year but if you are, at least get the best one and if you can't draft a guy to develop later on. You should always have a late round / undrafted guy on the roster/PS. You never know.
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You can get on Gettleman for arriving at the grade after watching a drive at the senior bowl. But, if you hit on the QB, it doesn't matter where in the first they are drafted.
I never understood on liking a QB to draft at 20, but not at 6. What's the difference?
It depends on how willing you are to bypass better players at 6, and 2019 presented some.
I have debated the Montana argument....just not sure Montana would be Mkntana on the Giants.
It's fun to look back and see the names of other players and where they were taken by which teams. Revisionist history never gets old, does it?
A Look Back: the 1979 Draft - Phil Simms - ( New Window )
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
The 49ers thought Simms would be available to pick with the first pick in the second round (#29 at the time), and Bill Walsh would have drafted him if he were there.
The 49ers would have had the overall #1 pick, but they had traded it to the Bills for OJ Simpson. The Bills picked Tom Cousineau, who never played for them, choosing to sign in Canada instead.
But if you are drafting your 3rd ranked QB at 6, it's probably a bad move since QBs success rates are so low and there most likely will be a top rated player available. I havent looked at the draft much but aside from QB, Im sure there are 5-6 top position players available worthy of that spot.
If you are going to get a QB then get the one you want, not whats left. I dont agree with drafting a QB this year but if you are, at least get the best one and if you can't draft a guy to develop later on. You should always have a late round / undrafted guy on the roster/PS. You never know.
Exactly. Cherry picking things like George Young saying it doesn't matter is the exact same thing Gettleman did. They both loved their guy. It isn't about taking the QB when you take him. It is taking the right guy. You can find examples of anything you want to fit a narrative but you can also find the opposite to be true too.
The sin is not drafting a bust at QB. The sin is sticking with him after he's proven a bust. The Giants may trade up to #1 and draft Drake Maye...that's not a guarantee he will succeed. Even if the Giants do what we all want them to do, that doesn't mean the new QB should have the job bequeathed to him for 3+ years. THAT is the lesson of the Daniel Jones disaster.
If the Giants like one of the so-called Day 2 guys and draft him at 6, I'm all for it. Draft him, start him, and let him sink or swim. If after 2 years you're not sure (like Houston is sure with Stroud) he's the guy, be open to options if they become available.
That is the way to approach the QB position in 2024, in this CBA.
You've got to keep swinging until you hit. Sticking with a forked Eli and then bequeathing his job to Daniel Jones is how you end up with nearly a decade of some of the worst QB play in the league.
*coughcoughryanmkeanecough*
Phil Simms was a very fine QB who had a fantastic Super Bowl.
But he was no superstar.
He was a system QB who was blessed with a take-no-prisoners defense and a very strong, dedicated run game.
But his game was not that large when he had to throw off-schedule, had to move laterally or faced a pass rush.
And speaking of pass rush. There was absolutely zero, nada, nothing against Denver when he won the Super Bowl MVP. That is not a criticism. It is just a fact. His pocket that day fortress-like.
And one last point. After Phil Simms’ first 5 seasons with the Giants (1979-1983), fans wanted him gone. As in don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I have debated the Montana argument....just not sure Montana would be Mkntana on the Giants.
He wouldn't have been facing the Giants defense at Giants Stadium in that scenario.
He played more than fine in two regular season games at the Meadowlands. In the first (in 1984) he threw 3 TDs and the 49ers won 31-10.
In the second (1988) he came off the bench and won the game on a 78-yard TD to Jerry Rice.
He wasn't great in the playoff games in '85 or '86, I'm not sure I'd hold either against him, considering the opponent and the fact that he missed two months in 1986 with back surgery.
Phil Simms was a very fine QB who had a fantastic Super Bowl.
But he was no superstar.
He was a system QB who was blessed with a take-no-prisoners defense and a very strong, dedicated run game.
But his game was not that large when he had to throw off-schedule, had to move laterally or faced a pass rush.
And speaking of pass rush. There was absolutely zero, nada, nothing against Denver when he won the Super Bowl MVP. That is not a criticism. It is just a fact. His pocket that day fortress-like.
And one last point. After Phil Simms’ first 5 seasons with the Giants (1979-1983), fans wanted him gone. As in don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
He was also blessed with crappy receivers his whole career so there's that.
The game was much different when he played but name one Pro Bowl or all pro WR he had? Bavaro was his best target over his career.
George Young was an excellent GM. The switch to free agency in 1993 was a bit to much for Young but he knew how to build a team.
As for QB, we need one and I think 3 or 4 of them are worth the 6th pick. We hope to never have to pick this high again for a decade.
You draft the best talent
Phil Simms was a very fine QB who had a fantastic Super Bowl.
But he was no superstar.
He was a system QB who was blessed with a take-no-prisoners defense and a very strong, dedicated run game.
But his game was not that large when he had to throw off-schedule, had to move laterally or faced a pass rush.
And speaking of pass rush. There was absolutely zero, nada, nothing against Denver when he won the Super Bowl MVP. That is not a criticism. It is just a fact. His pocket that day fortress-like.
And one last point. After Phil Simms’ first 5 seasons with the Giants (1979-1983), fans wanted him gone. As in don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I disagree that Simms was a system QB. I say that because the system he played in held him back more than hid his flaws. The Giants were a run first offense, and left Phil to bail them out on 3rd down. Bill Walsh loved him, he probably doesn’t draft Montana if Phil had been there for SF.
Exactly.... Did you compare Eli Manning to YA Tittle? Hakeem Nicks to Frank Gifford?
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
Yes, they could have picked OJ Anderson at #7 and draft Montana at a round past the first.
And BTW, Bill Walsh not only wanted Simms, but told him that he would make him a Hall of Fame quarterback.
You start with the QB. If they know in their hearts, they can't win with Jones, then they HAVE to draft a QB.
Well, to state the obvious: No they don't. They don't have to. I mean, what if they didn't? Would they cancel the season? Fold the franchise? No.
What if they don't like this year's QB class as much as the draftniks do?
George Young really liked Simms. In that pre-world-wide-web era, the fans didn't know about him, but other teams did. The liked him enough to make him the face of the franchise. That worked out with Simms. It didn't work with Dave Brown. It worked with Eli. So far, it hasn't worked with DJ, not really.
Eventually you have to get your guy, but if you don't think your guy is there, you don't have to take a guy you don't really believe in.
Simms was great but when I think of Young it is first about a devastating front 7. Then a high quality OL, outstanding running game and enough big play at the QB position. Perfect QB for the team. With the perfect HC.
I have missed a lot of the George Young values for over a decade.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
Bill Walsh wanted Simms, Montana fell in his lap.
That seasoning used to be the rule and why would it not apply today?
We really should think about extending Daniel Jones another 4 or 5 years if we want to get the most out of him.
Phil Simms was a very fine QB who had a fantastic Super Bowl.
But he was no superstar.
He was a system QB who was blessed with a take-no-prisoners defense and a very strong, dedicated run game.
But his game was not that large when he had to throw off-schedule, had to move laterally or faced a pass rush.
And speaking of pass rush. There was absolutely zero, nada, nothing against Denver when he won the Super Bowl MVP. That is not a criticism. It is just a fact. His pocket that day fortress-like.
And one last point. After Phil Simms’ first 5 seasons with the Giants (1979-1983), fans wanted him gone. As in don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I will go so far as to say Simms was a better passer than Montana. Joe was a very accurate passer and could not be fooled by a defense, he was a great technician, but Simms had the stronger arm and was nearly as accurate. Had he not been robbed by injury and an inexplicable decision by Parcells to start Brunner that one season, he'd be in the conversation for the Hall.
The fans today would have had him cut after year 2.
Btw, Simmis was drafted in 1979. Parcells benched him for Brunner in 1983. It wasn't until 1984 that he threw for over 4,000 yards and became the Phil Simms that we all know and love. Eli was drafted in 2004 and there are probably still a lot of posters on this site who wanted him gone in 2005, 2006, and even during the 2007 season before he became the Eli we know and love. I sure as hell don't know if Jones gets one more shot, and if he does, if he's capable of confounding what has become the conventional wisdom. All I know is that it's happened before.
The NFCE and the NFC as a whole had so much talent back then in the 1980s so it was incredibly difficult to navigate through to get to a Super Bowl. But Simms was pretty damn credible in making the Giants a tough out for a good part of that decade.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
I believe Walsh has said he was going to draft Phil if he had been available
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Or Joe Montana at #82?
You decide.
I believe Walsh has said he was going to draft Phil if he had been available
According to Simms, Walsh told him before the draft that San Francisco would draft him with the first pick in the second round. When Simms told Walsh he didn’t think he’d still be available, Walsh told him that they had checked around and were pretty sure no one was taking him in the first round.