Nate Tice & Dane Brugler discussed the Giants pick and all of the top 12 picks in the podcast linked below. NYG discussion starts at the 29:00 minute mark. Some good points:
--NYG is a big wildcard as to what they will do.
--Would they trade up to 3 with NE if a QB they like is sitting there?
--4 is another trade up target spot if Daniels/Maye are still there.
--Could NYG part with a 2025 first to move up for Maye at 4 if he's there?
--Nabers is the type of guy you can draft and worry about WR later.
--Could they move Neal inside and draft an OT?
--They both are hesitant for NYG to move up if the cost is too rich considering the Jones contract. You aren't getting the true rookie deal discount in 2024 and 2025. But, they think it's worth it for Maye.
--They hinted at Jones & Daniels having similarities with throwing the ball, but did not expand on it.
They seem to think Williams & Maye are locked in at 1 & 2 in the draft. They think the Patriots can go in many different directions. They expect the Fields talk to ramp up next week at the combine.
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Maybe they've been reading our responses.
Neal was not the reach that Flowers, Pugh, and even Thomas to a lesser extent (some argued he was behind Wirfs and Becton) were thought to be.
Neal was a legitimate number 1 overall pick option at one point, albeit early in his draft's process. We now know that Dallas, who churn out great olinemen every year, had Neal rated highly.
I just don't see us moving him to guard after 2 injury plagued season so early in his career.
Neal was not the reach that Flowers, Pugh, and even Thomas to a lesser extent (some argued he was behind Wirfs and Becton) were thought to be.
Neal was a legitimate number 1 overall pick option at one point, albeit early in his draft's process. We now know that Dallas, who churn out great olinemen every year, had Neal rated highly.
I just don't see us moving him to guard after 2 injury plagued season so early in his career.
Agreed.
I would actually LOVE for the Giants to take an OT at 6. You just can't have too many. They're never ALL healthy at the same time. If so, one guy (not Thomas) slides inside to OG. I don't care which.
But scouting depot should be put on notice, thus far they have not done an excellent job, mediocre at best.
No.
If the Giants use #6 on OT the OL will have:
Thomas #4 overall
TBD #6 overall
Neal #7 overall
JMS #57 overall
Ezeudu #67 overall
3 1sts (all top 10) a 2nd and a 3rd
by far the greatest draft pick investment in the OL in the league. And no one still knows if the OL will be good or not and then people will need to get paid/2nd contracts. Thomas already got paid. He is 2nd in the entire league for LT's guaranteed $$, 2nd in average cap hit per year, 2nd in total contract value.
More assets into the OL, especially draft picks, hinders the growth of the team.
And the lack of attention paid to any other position with premium picks means what? best case you're the Titans? But without Derrick Henry.
You can maybe run the ball and that's it? because you don't have elite WR's or an elite passing QB.
Even Dallas with their great OL's didn't have this much investment in the lines and they also didn't win anything. Maybe not even 1 playoff game.
The cost of adding an OL at #6 means no QB this year or no elite WR or whatever else position they would consider in that spot.
the Giants have almost forced themselves to not take an OL at #6.
The fact some fans want them to draft an OL at 6 is crazy to me.
If the Giants use #6 on OT the OL will have:
Thomas #4 overall
TBD #6 overall
Neal #7 overall
JMS #57 overall
Ezeudu #67 overall
3 1sts (all top 10) a 2nd and a 3rd
by far the greatest draft pick investment in the OL in the league. And no one still knows if the OL will be good or not and then people will need to get paid/2nd contracts. Thomas already got paid. He is 2nd in the entire league for LT's guaranteed $$, 2nd in average cap hit per year, 2nd in total contract value.
More assets into the OL, especially draft picks, hinders the growth of the team.
And the lack of attention paid to any other position with premium picks means what? best case you're the Titans? But without Derrick Henry.
You can maybe run the ball and that's it? because you don't have elite WR's or an elite passing QB.
Even Dallas with their great OL's didn't have this much investment in the lines and they also didn't win anything. Maybe not even 1 playoff game.
The cost of adding an OL at #6 means no QB this year or no elite WR or whatever else position they would consider in that spot.
the Giants have almost forced themselves to not take an OL at #6.
The fact some fans want them to draft an OL at 6 is crazy to me.
And all in front of a QB who may be causing many of the OL issues to begin with through his lack of processing what he seeing pre and post snap and holding on to the ball too long.
#6 must be EDGE, QB or WR, or manipulated in some way to draft one of those positions either earlier (in the case of QB) or later (in the case of EDGE or WR, along with additional assets) in my opinion.
If Schoen takes an OT at #6 this team is in huge trouble because we don't have the right people leading it.
2. McCarthy - 25%
3. Odunze - 10%
4. Other - 25%
Also think that, as McCarthy rises - he may end up the favorite for NE at #3. Then, #5 becomes a huge trade destination for teams like Minn.
Dave G just called and asked "What about RB"?
1---- The new OL coach sees something in Neal he hates and wants him at Guard instead.
2---- Thy project one of the OL as s sure-fire All-Pro for next 10 years and just as high or higher on the draft board than the WR's. There aren't just good OL available in RD 2 but there are also good WR's available in that rd. as well.
With that sidi - imo QB is the way to go with what I've read. If the value of the QB isn't at 6 - find a way to get the QB while trading back.
You CAN have too many top-10 picks at the same position group. Not only does it cause a cap bottleneck if they all hit (which you should hope they do, obviously), but it also means that you are ignoring every other position group when it comes to ultra-premium draft assets.
And that's without the consideration that you're guaranteeing that even the best case scenario results in a top-10 pick moving to OG with a position change, rather than getting a comparable IOL-only prospect 50+ picks later into the draft.
It's just really awful resource allocation. And in the cap era, with finite resources, you just can't have one non-QB position group occupying such an outsized resource footprint when there is a mountain of evidence to demonstrate that it simply isn't necessary to throw that many resources at OL in order to be successful. Look around the league at the best OL groups, and see how they were assembled.
It isn't by throwing three top-10 OT picks at the group in a five-year span, that's for sure.
In my opinion, the answer would be yes. Grab him if he's there. I'd rather not give up a first if he's there, but if it has to be done, then don't dwell on it with the Cardinals too much. Just do it. My first offer would be the two number twos this year, then add a two from next year of they balk. I doubt they love MHJr that much to balk, unlike Gettledweeb and Saquon 6 years ago.
In my opinion, the answer would be yes. Grab him if he's there. I'd rather not give up a first if he's there, but if it has to be done, then don't dwell on it with the Cardinals too much. Just do it. My first offer would be the two number twos this year, then add a two from next year of they balk. I doubt they love MHJr that much to balk, unlike Gettledweeb and Saquon 6 years ago.
MHjr is in a class above the rest of the WRs, so I would expect AZ demands more if they passed on selecting him, which I believe they won't do.
If the Giants really want a QB in the 2nd round then they should try to trade into the late 1st to get him and not wait till the 2nd. Again if you’re not willing to do that then wait till later in the draft and get a developmental QB. A 2nd round QB is generally not considered a starting caliber QB. Yes it happens but generally if you think a guy is a starting caliber QB you take them in the 1st round if at all possible. To me you are better off for the Giants finding a cheap Vet FA and use the draft to get your future stars. The 1st and 2nd round picks should be absolute starters for the Giants out of the gate.
We lack so much talent, especially on the offensive side of the ball that it would be a disservice for the Giants to trade a lot of capital to draft a QB when we are paying Jones and foregoing drafting an impact player. Again, waiting for a QB to drop in the 2nd round is really saying you don’t think they are an immediate starter and not getting a player that can help you now is a mistake. The Giants need above average starting caliber players and they should be able to get at least 2 where they are drafting.
I also don’t want an OL in the 1st round, OL needs to be fixed in FA and coaching. If the new OL coach doesn’t think Neal is an OT then sign an OT in FA and move Neal inside. If he does think Neal is an OT then sign at least 1 G in FA possibly 2. The one thing about FA is you can find OL in FA but you have to pay to get them.
The last several years have shown that it’s difficult to find WRs in FA, you have to trade for them or draft them. The smart move for the Giants is to get a WR at 6. A stud WR would solve a lot of issues on O.
^ this. I do not think their QB will be there, either.
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In my opinion, the answer would be yes. Grab him if he's there. I'd rather not give up a first if he's there, but if it has to be done, then don't dwell on it with the Cardinals too much. Just do it. My first offer would be the two number twos this year, then add a two from next year of they balk. I doubt they love MHJr that much to balk, unlike Gettledweeb and Saquon 6 years ago.
MHjr is in a class above the rest of the WRs, so I would expect AZ demands more if they passed on selecting him, which I believe they won't do.
MHJr is arguably the best player in this entire draft. It'd be one thing if the Cards were guaranteed of still getting him at 6, but it isn't. That's what sucks about not picking 5th. This wouldn't be an issue. Effin' Tommy DeVito. $hit!
I would say that the last several years have shown that it's difficult to find any FAs at premium positions, unless those players are mid-tier (or otherwise flawed in some way), but will seek top-tier paydays.
All premium positions should be viewed as draft-only, IMO. QB, WR, EDGE, OT, CB. Those guys don't hit FA without warts.
Yes, they should, because Evan Neal, at the same stage that Joe Alt is currently in, was also a stud OT that could hold down the position for the next decade.
Alt isn't any more can't miss than Neal ever was, and might not even be an upgrade over Neal with better coaching, assuming the raw physical tools that made Neal a top prospect are all still there waiting to be unlocked by a competent NFL OL coach.
Dallas took Lamb when WR was probably one of their least needy positions and look now. Just because we have Neal doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take OT if they love the guy.
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The last several years have shown that it’s difficult to find WRs in FA, you have to trade for them or draft them. The smart move for the Giants is to get a WR at 6. A stud WR would solve a lot of issues on O.
I would say that the last several years have shown that it's difficult to find any FAs at premium positions, unless those players are mid-tier (or otherwise flawed in some way), but will seek top-tier paydays.
All premium positions should be viewed as draft-only, IMO. QB, WR, EDGE, OT, CB. Those guys don't hit FA without warts.
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#6 will be QB, WR, or Edge.
The only way they go Edge is in a trade down. If it's not a QB or WR with the 6th overall pick it will be Bowers. Bowers won't just be the QB's best friend, he'll be popular with Hyatt and Wan'Dale as well.
Edge is a position of need as much as any of other premium positions - QB, WR, CB.
I do not think Bowers is a real consideration at #6.
If the Giants use #6 on OT the OL will have:
Thomas #4 overall
TBD #6 overall
Neal #7 overall
JMS #57 overall
Ezeudu #67 overall
3 1sts (all top 10) a 2nd and a 3rd
by far the greatest draft pick investment in the OL in the league. And no one still knows if the OL will be good or not and then people will need to get paid/2nd contracts. Thomas already got paid. He is 2nd in the entire league for LT's guaranteed $$, 2nd in average cap hit per year, 2nd in total contract value.
More assets into the OL, especially draft picks, hinders the growth of the team.
And the lack of attention paid to any other position with premium picks means what? best case you're the Titans? But without Derrick Henry.
You can maybe run the ball and that's it? because you don't have elite WR's or an elite passing QB.
Even Dallas with their great OL's didn't have this much investment in the lines and they also didn't win anything. Maybe not even 1 playoff game.
The cost of adding an OL at #6 means no QB this year or no elite WR or whatever else position they would consider in that spot.
the Giants have almost forced themselves to not take an OL at #6.
The fact some fans want them to draft an OL at 6 is crazy to me.
Over the same three drafts we spent a 1st and a 2nd on DEs. So that position group must be out as well.
Dallas used 3-1st rounders on oline over four years and ended up with Tyron Smith, Fredricks, and Martin. I don’t think they regret that.
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be awful. it would fit the epitome of the saying "throwing good money after bad". At some point, you have got to get OL production outside the premium draft picks. Historically every winning team does. Even the Giants most recent titles.
If the Giants use #6 on OT the OL will have:
Thomas #4 overall
TBD #6 overall
Neal #7 overall
JMS #57 overall
Ezeudu #67 overall
3 1sts (all top 10) a 2nd and a 3rd
by far the greatest draft pick investment in the OL in the league. And no one still knows if the OL will be good or not and then people will need to get paid/2nd contracts. Thomas already got paid. He is 2nd in the entire league for LT's guaranteed $$, 2nd in average cap hit per year, 2nd in total contract value.
More assets into the OL, especially draft picks, hinders the growth of the team.
And the lack of attention paid to any other position with premium picks means what? best case you're the Titans? But without Derrick Henry.
You can maybe run the ball and that's it? because you don't have elite WR's or an elite passing QB.
Even Dallas with their great OL's didn't have this much investment in the lines and they also didn't win anything. Maybe not even 1 playoff game.
The cost of adding an OL at #6 means no QB this year or no elite WR or whatever else position they would consider in that spot.
the Giants have almost forced themselves to not take an OL at #6.
The fact some fans want them to draft an OL at 6 is crazy to me.
We spent 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks on WR over the last three years so should I assume you think it would be crazy to draft a wr as well?
Over the same three drafts we spent a 1st and a 2nd on DEs. So that position group must be out as well.
Dallas used 3-1st rounders on oline over four years and ended up with Tyron Smith, Fredricks, and Martin. I don’t think they regret that.
All the players I mentioned from the OL investment are still on the roster. Toney is not. If the Giants traded Neal it would be similar to the WR position. Then drafting an OL might make sense.
The Giants current roster WR investment is a 2nd, 3rd and not much else.
Which pales in comparison to what you are suggesting for the OL.
and to the Dallas point (which still is less investment than the what you are suggesting for the Giants if you are beating the OL at #6 drum), what did it get the Cowboys? The Cowboys with that OL won one playoff game.
This is not the way. Look at every SB winner the past decade and review their OL investment and configuration. It is rare to win without OL contribution coming from non-premium draft picks/other sources. Just look at the Giants own history with SB XLII and SB XLVI OLs.
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But did they not kinda clean house on the scouts after last years’s Draft ?
No.
All premium positions should be viewed as draft-only, IMO. QB, WR, EDGE, OT, CB. Those guys don't hit FA without warts.
Which pales in comparison to what you are suggesting for the OL.
and to the Dallas point (which still is less investment than the what you are suggesting for the Giants if you are beating the OL at #6 drum), what did it get the Cowboys? The Cowboys with that OL won one playoff game.
This is not the way. Look at every SB winner the past decade and review their OL investment and configuration. It is rare to win without OL contribution coming from non-premium draft picks/other sources. Just look at the Giants own history with SB XLII and SB XLVI OLs.
I’m not suggesting taking an OT just to take an OT, I just really like what I see from Alt (if available) and still see high potential for Neal as a guard. If those two hit then instead of Philly or Dallas, we become the NFC east team with the dominant oline. And that opens up our offense and greatly improves our next QB’s chance of being successful.
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In comment 16404299 JonC said:
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#6 will be QB, WR, or Edge.
The only way they go Edge is in a trade down. If it's not a QB or WR with the 6th overall pick it will be Bowers. Bowers won't just be the QB's best friend, he'll be popular with Hyatt and Wan'Dale as well.
Edge is a position of need as much as any of other premium positions - QB, WR, CB.
I do not think Bowers is a real consideration at #6.
He's not, but he seems to be Milton's crush this year. I'm sure we'll be regaled with stories of Bowers' parents meeting at Utah State where they were both excellent athletes, and how Brock and his sister are both D-1 athletes themselves, so the bloodline is strong, and how Bowers' background playing baseball, basketball, and soccer will translate to something in the NFL, etc.
It's the same as the Rosen script, just with a new player at a different position.
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#6 will be QB, WR, or Edge.
The only way they go Edge is in a trade down. If it's not a QB or WR with the 6th overall pick it will be Bowers. Bowers won't just be the QB's best friend, he'll be popular with Hyatt and Wan'Dale as well.
I doubt it, there's blue chip WRs and very red chip Edges to boot.
Neal was not the reach that Flowers, Pugh, and even Thomas to a lesser extent (some argued he was behind Wirfs and Becton) were thought to be.
Neal was a legitimate number 1 overall pick option at one point, albeit early in his draft's process. We now know that Dallas, who churn out great olinemen every year, had Neal rated highly.
I just don't see us moving him to guard after 2 injury plagued season so early in his career.
Wirfs wais a RT and Becton is a bust
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Which pales in comparison to what you are suggesting for the OL.
and to the Dallas point (which still is less investment than the what you are suggesting for the Giants if you are beating the OL at #6 drum), what did it get the Cowboys? The Cowboys with that OL won one playoff game.
This is not the way. Look at every SB winner the past decade and review their OL investment and configuration. It is rare to win without OL contribution coming from non-premium draft picks/other sources. Just look at the Giants own history with SB XLII and SB XLVI OLs.
I agree that with 5 starters you absolutely should have some late round contributors but I will never understand avoiding bpa because of prior years drafts especially when it’s on the weakest position group.
I’m not suggesting taking an OT just to take an OT, I just really like what I see from Alt (if available) and still see high potential for Neal as a guard. If those two hit then instead of Philly or Dallas, we become the NFC east team with the dominant oline. And that opens up our offense and greatly improves our next QB’s chance of being successful.
BPA in a vacuum is not a thing, what if every year at your draft spot BPA is a WR. Does that mean you take WR's in the first round every year?
No, it doesn't.
While OL is without a doubt a need, prior investment in the position HAS to be taken into consideration because investment in one position comes at the cost of another. Especially with a teams most valuable assets to roster building (premium draft picks).
So, while an OT could be the BPA at #6 (it's not from what I read but I am not an expert), once you marry up BPA, need and roster construction there really is no good case for taking one at #6.
You don't take one if you don't find one good value (either position philosophy, or no good candidates). Or if there's better value to be had.
You don't not take one just because you've already invested in the position, but still find it a position of need. That's like saying we shouldn't take a QB because we've invested in DJ. I don't think you'll get many BBI takers on that line of thinking.