Trust the guys you pay to evaluate the position and make a move. It's as simple as that. Most QB's strike out, but you have to swing. And this franchise hasn't drafted a QB since 2019 which is absurd.
Either the QB can play or can't. I'll never understand the thought that Penix (or any name) can be drafted in the second round, but not first. If he can play, the most important position in the sport is solved for at least the duration of the rookie contract.
Let's say the Giants take Penix at 6, outrage will follow by a lot of fans, but if he shows he can play, it will be forgotten.
It goes back to conviction for me and I'll support any of the QBs drafted by the Giants if they go that route at 6 assuming Schoen/Daboll feel strongly about it.
I love how he stood tall in the pocket. The rumors about his desire have seemed to be proven true. I will still continue to value QBs high who stand tall in the pocket when the rush comes over the guy who bails out at the first sign of trouble after his first read isn't open. That isn't a QB, yet so many people gravitate towards those types of players. About 90% of plays are made in the pocket, maybe 80%. Why so we go crazy over that 10-20% of plays outside the pocket?
Haha well I've seen him for a while.... not lately though? Hmm.
Either the QB can play or can't. I'll never understand the thought that Penix (or any name) can be drafted in the second round, but not first. If he can play, the most important position in the sport is solved for at least the duration of the rookie contract.
Let's say the Giants take Penix at 6, outrage will follow by a lot of fans, but if he shows he can play, it will be forgotten.
It goes back to conviction for me and I'll support any of the QBs drafted by the Giants if they go that route at 6 assuming Schoen/Daboll feel strongly about it.
+1 if you’re drafting a guy who you think can be a franchise QB and he hits, there’s no such thing as overdrafting
And that Malik Willis thread didn't age well... oopha
I made pro Willis comments that are buried somewhere.
Evaluating college QBs isn't my strength. But it doesn't seem to be a strength of a lot of people, including NFL teams.
I have never, really I don't think ever - been right about a college QB. Like not even broken clock right. And I still defend Daniel Jones. lol. Now that I typed all that I'm starting to rethink my position... lol
After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RE: Danold and Rosen
LakeGeorgeGiant : 11/12/2017 6:45 pm : link
In comment 13687183 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Are the two top rated guys and it isn't even close. Reading the opinions here I wonder if posters actually watch the games ?
Wonder no more, they don't watch them, but they continue to arrogantly spout uninformed opinions.
He landed in places with horrible OLs (and the Giants would have been that, too), took a zillion sacks, and I think he got ruined. That said, maybe he didn't have the personality to have worked out in a better situation, anyway.
I preferred Rosen, but would have been fine with Darnold. He didn't have much around him with the Jets, either.
IMO, both Rosen and Darnold landed in very difficult situations to succeed in.
The guy who scared the shit out of me was Allen. Big arm, but his accuracy looked terrible coming out of college. Rare to see a guy improve that so much once in the NFL.
I was completely wrong on all accounts. But so were a lot of teams' scouting departments.
After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
Quarterback is the most important, and most difficult position to play in all of professional sports. No one should be surprised the hit rate for teams is low, and the hit rate for fans guessing doesn't show up on the scale.
The best lesson when looking back over the years, is to cut ties immediately ASAP if it doesn't work out.
I can't say I was a fan pre se but I honestly expected Haskins to be
I feel like everyone pretty much wanted to say or knew that there was a huge chance Rosen would be a complete bust, but because had this awesome arm talent everyone loved him, and they didn’t want to say things like “he has other interests! It’s ok!” Meanwhile he was practically spelling out for people that he didn’t actually love playing the game of football.
who read all those threads looking for their user name praying they didn't say anything stupid...
I've said a lot of stupid stuff, but I think I dodged these particular threads.
Haha me too. I know I liked both Mayfield and Rosen that draft. But I defended Eli because of the terrible OL play. Sounds familiar lol. Eli was done by that point... but it is true that our OL play has been horrid for way Way WAY WAAAAY too long.
... Is Malik Willis worth the 5th pick overall? - ( New Window )
Those posts in there. My word.
Producer (with a new alias these days) couldn't get off his knees over a QB who had/has no accuracy. Elite traits. Man, and I'm no expert or close to one but it didn't take much to see Willis was going to be supremely awful. And he has been.
pro Rosen and Haskins so I thought I would be in some, but all I found was
Quote:
I don't think
Amtoft : 3/21/2019 11:42 am : link
SF wants to move out of the second pick. I think they want Bosa or Williams as they are special. Top of the draft is not always about QBs.
I don't mind coming in and missing on some posts. You are right some and you are wrong some. When everyone was drooling over Sam Darnold I was dead set again him. Pretty sure I had it Rosen, Allen, Mayfield, Jackson, and then Darnold out of ranking the 5. Rosen turned out to be the worst while Allen/Jackson are the best. Mayfield isn't great, but is serviceable.
After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
You’re totally wrong. He was absolutely a failure/bust given the expectations and cost to obtain him and getting one season out of him. Even aside from injury, he never matured or improved as a passer.
You can blame the organization for sure but RGIII became a bust that they were lucky they doubled down on Cousins to avoid a 4-5 year painful rebuild and purgatory.
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Always remember - the Giants could draft an inanimate carbon rod in April and by July a certain segment of fans will be talking themselves into it. Look no further than 2019, when they drafted an inanimate carbon rod #6 overall to be their QB.
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Well... say what you want but we aren't winning a playoff game last year with Stidham or Finley. I don't think Jones is our guy anymore, but that said he is definitely better than what is portrayed here ad nauseum. He took a huge step back because Thomas went down and they had Ezeudu at LT. The folly of the beginning of this season was palpable, all the way around. Including the lack of preparation for the start of the season and some seriously head scratching roster decisions. C'est La Vie.
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
if Rosen had some late career success. His career has been very odd... nearly every team he's played for either drafted/acquired another highly touted QB (or a QB with immense potential) or wanted to be in position to do so early in his tenure with them.
On the other hand, he never gave any of these teams reason to pass on these touted QBs...
if Rosen had some late career success. His career has been very odd... nearly every team he's played for either drafted/acquired another highly touted QB (or a QB with immense potential) or wanted to be in position to do so early in his tenure with them.
You wouldn't? He's out of the league right now. If he was hanging around as a backup maybe, but he has basically not played since getting some spot duty in his second stop in 2019. It's been 5 teams since then and he can't even stick on a roster.
If the rumors were true, it's a case of him thinking he's a lot better than he is and not taking well to coaching. That's a rough combo.
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
We've tried the non 1st round
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:21 pm : link
tier 1 QB thing, and it hasn't worked. This will be a disaster if we do something like this.
This thread linked below proves it. March of 2019. The thought of Jones to NYG put most here in a complete panic. Link - ( New Window )
Including this guy:
Quote:
I just can't buy the notion that we passed
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:20 pm : link
on Darnold, Rosen, Allen, and Haskins, for Daniel Jones or Will Grier. I just can't wrap my head around that...and if that's true, Shurmur and Gettleman will need a new job in a year.
I stand by what I said. We'd have been better off than what we actually did.
Fucking how? Wasting a 1st round pick on a guy not selected until the third round and already supplanted by a 2nd Round QB the following season (Levis) would make us better off in what universe? You're truly making the argument that drafting Willis at 5 (or even 7), a guy with a grand total of 350 yards passing, 53% completion rate, no TDs, 3 Ints, and 1 rushing TD over two seasons, would have been a better move than taking Thibodeaux and Neal?
Say what you will about Thibodeaux and Neal, but they at least have some positive tape. Thibodeaux certainly flashes, and Neal still has a chance to become a quality NFL olinemen. Willis has one throw in the preseason to hang his hat on. That's it. He'll be stocking shelves soon enough. Fucking ludicrous take.
The one thing you can learn from these threads is if the draft were left up to a lot of our resident QB experts, we'd be in a different kind of QB hell. The kind where you repeatedly draft a QB at the top of the 1st round every single year despite their ability because "their tools" or whatever. We definitely have to move on from Jones, but drafting a QB just to draft a QB at the expense of actually talented players just isn't the way to build a successful team.
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
I won't argue that, except to say that was just one game, we did win another 9. I'd rather win than lose regardless of the situation, but that's just me. And I don't know about you, but I (and the guys I was watching the game with) were all pretty damn happy after that playoff game ended. The next one not so much obviously.
And ones that needs to be applied wholesale to QB situation now is you can miss on QBs in draft and not suffer inexorably. The problem and mistake is not recognizing the failure sufficiently and not continuing to double down multiple years on a mistake or seizing opportunity to reset to advantage. Heck you can miss on multiple QBs over couple years and not suffer irreparably.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
for all the shots NFL GMs take they tend to be more right than given credit for relative to the talking heads on TV and WFAN callers who just want new meat.
Quote:
it almost entirely comes down to what they think of his processing
Eric on Li : mute : 3/4/2022 10:22 am : link
which is impossible for anyone to know from afar based on what he's done on the field.
his skills are obviously high end but that doesn't matter if you don't have an ability to run an NFL passing offense.
the closest recent prospect was Lamar Jackson and he'd proven a lot more than Willis in that area, and every team in the first round passed on him (including his own).
It sounds like Willis is a great kid so someone will likely take the chance on the skills and it could be as high as 2 or 5 or anywhere. But more than any other position fans are just guessing when it comes to what the NFL truly thinks about QBs.
He landed in places with horrible OLs (and the Giants would have been that, too), took a zillion sacks, and I think he got ruined. That said, maybe he didn't have the personality to have worked out in a better situation, anyway.
I preferred Rosen, but would have been fine with Darnold. He didn't have much around him with the Jets, either.
IMO, both Rosen and Darnold landed in very difficult situations to succeed in.
The guy who scared the shit out of me was Allen. Big arm, but his accuracy looked terrible coming out of college. Rare to see a guy improve that so much once in the NFL.
I was completely wrong on all accounts. But so were a lot of teams' scouting departments.
If Rosen got "ruined" in as few games as he actually played, then he was missing any semblance of toughness to begin with. He played a grand total of 24 games, starting 16. In that time, he was sacked 61 times. 45 of them came in his rookie year. It's a high number, but not extraordinarily high.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
That actually makes sense to me BW. You know, I wonder how good Aikman was compared to the last few years of top picks. He was obviously very good... but damn those teams he played on were loaded...
Malik Willis is one of the worst quarterbacks to come into the NFL in a long time. I’d rather have Daniel Jones than him, yes.
So given the choice between two QBs that both are incapable of winning a championship, you'd rather have the one with the albatross contract instead of the fail-fast ripcord option?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
You’re totally wrong. He was absolutely a failure/bust given the expectations and cost to obtain him and getting one season out of him. Even aside from injury, he never matured or improved as a passer.
You can blame the organization for sure but RGIII became a bust that they were lucky they doubled down on Cousins to avoid a 4-5 year painful rebuild and purgatory.
Sammo, you have no memory. He was Lamar before Lamar, and Washington absolutely destroyed him and his wheels.
if your pro RGIII, then you have the right take. The anti RGIII comment, that he had no talent, was not accurate. He was very impactful and hard to defend. His legs, Like Lamar's, were his best asset and Washington, allowing him to back on the field, destroyed his career.
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
People are wrong all the time when it comes to the draft. I though Joey Harrington was going to be great. On the flip side, I thought Matt Ryan was going to suck.
The one thing-if I can-pat myself on the back-is remembering in the moment that it was wild that TB12 lasted until the sixth round. I watched a ton of Wolverine games when he was there, culminating in their Orange Bowl win on New Year's Day '00 vs. 'Bama...I thought Brady was going to be good in the NFL. Obviously I didn't see what he'd become, Haha.
Again, Malik Willis tried and failed so miserably at playing quarterback that they basically wasted no time at all in benching him to make sure he never played again, and then they drafted another QB in the second round to basically ensure that Willis would not be the only option they had besides Tannehill.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
There was also that guy who really liked Carson Strong in 2022.
Again, Malik Willis tried and failed so miserably at playing quarterback that they basically wasted no time at all in benching him to make sure he never played again, and then they drafted another QB in the second round to basically ensure that Willis would not be the only option they had besides Tannehill.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
I never thought I'd say "ryanmkeane was right", but you were dead right about drafting Jones being a disaster. Well done.
Would be stars. I was completely wrong. And like most said, the problem isnt being wrong about a decision, it’s compounding that decision by doubling down on the wrong initial decision. That’s what has kept the giants as one of the worst organizations in the NFL, and why Jones will be under center for a long time to come.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
Shouldn't you reserve judgment on Willis until he's had five years to play the position...
Let's be honest. Your guy has played five years and we're still uncertain what we have?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
Yeah, but those 3 decisions wouldnt have been an option, if you wouldnt have drafted Jones in the first place. So yeah.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
This is what happens when you listen to other DJ enthusiasts, Ryan. What record did DJ set in that win? Is it a record that the NFL tracks? Could you tell anyone who held this record before DJ?
Maybe we'll add "NFL record" to the list of things you don't quite understand.
Recall it was something like the first QB to throw 300 yards but also
have 70 yards rushing and a TD or something like that.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
That's my recollection as well. And my point was, that's not an NFL record in the way that people commonly mean it (i.e., most passing yards in a game, highest completion percentage in a game, most single-season rushing TDs, etc.).
So when someone calls DJ's performance in that Minnesota playoff game "a[n] NFL record," they're either being intentionally misleading, or they don't really understand what an NFL record actually is.
In this case, I'd bet on the latter because I think the former requires cleverness and guile.
RE: RE: Recall it was something like the first QB to throw 300 yards but also
have 70 yards rushing and a TD or something like that.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
That's my recollection as well. And my point was, that's not an NFL record in the way that people commonly mean it (i.e., most passing yards in a game, highest completion percentage in a game, most single-season rushing TDs, etc.).
So when someone calls DJ's performance in that Minnesota playoff game "a[n] NFL record," they're either being intentionally misleading, or they don't really understand what an NFL record actually is.
In this case, I'd bet on the latter because I think the former requires cleverness and guile.
A Game That Will Live In Infamy
Mostly because that epic win also came with this result:
Daniel Jones signed a 4 year contract with the New York Giants worth a base value of $160.0 million with $82 million guaranteed at signing and total guarantee of $105 million. Jones has full guaranteed salaries and work out bonuses in 2023 and 2024, and a $36 million signing bonus. $23 million of the 2025 base salary is guaranteed for injury at signing, with $12 million of that scheduled to vest into a full guarantee at the start of the 2025 league year. Jones can also earn a $1 million roster bonus at the start of the 2026 league year. An available $35 million through performance incentives is also available. Details courtesy of PFT.
humbling as well...goes to show you that a QBs job is to run the offense. The basics...
1.He's got to be a leader.
2.Football IQ - He needs to be able to read the Defenses and put the players in the right position after the play is called from the sideline.
3.Execution - needs to make the throws when needed, sometimes scramble or buy time in the pocket.
4.Pocket awareness - avoid sacks
5.Health - avoid injuries, know when to throw it away, slide, etc
The rest is athleticism, arm strength and whatever.
I dont need my QB to be able to throw 80 yards on his knees or run a 4.3 40 time.
Again, Malik Willis tried and failed so miserably at playing quarterback that they basically wasted no time at all in benching him to make sure he never played again, and then they drafted another QB in the second round to basically ensure that Willis would not be the only option they had besides Tannehill.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
And you said you don’t treat his 2022 like it was an MVP season. He set an arbitrary made up record
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
Lots of people bat 1.000 in hindsight.
He gave him an 80 rating which is 2nd rounder. He also gave the same to Kenny Pickett and Desmond Ridder. While Pickett and Ridder have struggled more than not, Willis hasn't shown a lick of promise whatsoever. He was always going to be raw with his mechanics and accuracy; his "traits" people liked were arm strength and scrambling ability. Lots of failed players in the past had a strong arm but was a woeful QB. Mike Vick and Kyle Bollee for starters. Running against your low end college schools is completely different than the pros. He hasn't shown a flashes there, either.
Matt Corral also had some faves from this board. He's been an absolute dud.
The draft is such a crap shoot, you never know what you're going to end up with. If you hit 50% on a particular class you've done a fantastic job. The QB position is the most enigmatic when it comes to making the jump from college to the pros. Even if your scouts identify a can't-miss prospect, there is no guarantee your coaching staff isn't going to screw him up. the variables are incalculable.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
This is what happens when you listen to other DJ enthusiasts, Ryan. What record did DJ set in that win? Is it a record that the NFL tracks? Could you tell anyone who held this record before DJ?
Maybe we'll add "NFL record" to the list of things you don't quite understand.
It's the "Pu pu Platter" of select single game stats combined to make it seem like totaling 379 yards and 2 TDs is a historic playoff performance.
I don't think anyone has a problem acknowledging Jones had a really good game against Minnesota. But the next logical step in the order of operations is 1) why? 2) was it a signal of things to come?
You simply can't evaluate his performance without taking into consideration how truly bad the Vikings defense was. To ignore that is intellectually dishonest and frankly naive.
The enduring memory I have from the playoffs is how easily and thoroughly the Eagles dismantled the Giants. And how completely out of their league Jones looked. That performance, from the Giants at large, resembled the coming season way more than the Vikings game.
So today the Giants find themselves in a position presumably contemplating replacing Jones, 82M in on an investment that has netted .5 games of good football, and coming of double digit loss season 8 in the last decade.
The Minnesota game or the Eagle game? Answer is easy
Exactly -- and this is where the practical economics come into play.
In the hypothetical where you draft Willis. The Giants had already signed Taylor, and declined Jones's option. Let's imagine they try and trade Jones or just cut him.
If the Giants draft Willis at 5 or 7, any number of draft scenarios might have played out. We can all imagine good, better, or worse scenarios. So I won't harp on that.
But let's simply imagine Willis goes the Lance route, and it's clear after 2 years he's no good.
Standing here today the Giants would not have invested 82M in Jones, and they would be looking to draft a quarterback.
RE: Recall it was something like the first QB to throw 300 yards but also
have 70 yards rushing and a TD or something like that.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
I'd say pull up some of your points in the above threads, because I'm quite sure you have some doozies. But how would we track which of the 37 prior BBI usernames you posted under in those threads? Too confusing. I bet you can't even track them anymore. lol
The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
lofl
The day you actually contribute something to a thread will be the first
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
Lots of people bat 1.000 in hindsight.
He gave him an 80 rating which is 2nd rounder. He also gave the same to Kenny Pickett and Desmond Ridder. While Pickett and Ridder have struggled more than not, Willis hasn't shown a lick of promise whatsoever. He was always going to be raw with his mechanics and accuracy; his "traits" people liked were arm strength and scrambling ability. Lots of failed players in the past had a strong arm but was a woeful QB. Mike Vick and Kyle Bollee for starters. Running against your low end college schools is completely different than the pros. He hasn't shown a flashes there, either.
Matt Corral also had some faves from this board. He's been an absolute dud.
Michael Vick was woeful? You're really going to lump him in Kyle Bolle[r]? Vick finished in the top five of MVP voting twice in his career, top five for OPOY twice, won Comeback Player of the Year, and made four Pro Bowls across a 13-season career. That's what you're considering "woeful"?
The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
lofl
Compared to the Giants' actual decision-making and results?
I have a three day old combo plate sitting in my office fridge that could have done a better job as GM than the Giants have, in the aggregate, over the past decade.
He gave him an 80 rating which is 2nd rounder. He also gave the same to Kenny Pickett and Desmond Ridder. While Pickett and Ridder have struggled more than not, Willis hasn't shown a lick of promise whatsoever. He was always going to be raw with his mechanics and accuracy; his "traits" people liked were arm strength and scrambling ability. Lots of failed players in the past had a strong arm but was a woeful QB. Mike Vick and Kyle Bollee for starters. Running against your low end college schools is completely different than the pros. He hasn't shown a flashes there, either.
Matt Corral also had some faves from this board. He's been an absolute dud.
The grade was an 80. And in Sy's scale, a first rounder is an 81-84. So, Willis was right on the cusp. That's why I said essentially.
Here is part of Sy's review:
Quote:
In a quarterback class that lacks clarity, Willis is the one standout that could flip this group (and entire draft class) upside down. While there is a lot of work to be done, Willis is the potential superstar. While I doubt we see him come off the board at #2 to Detroit, the value of the position in relation to team-success in this league can certainly lead to it happening. Someone is going to take a swing for the fence with this kid. Keep in mind, there isn’t a scout or coach or GM that doesn’t believe in Willis’ intangibles. He is a rock-solid kid that is going to be great for a locker room and will work hard at his craft...
I wouldn't call Mike Vick a "woeful QB" or insult him by coupling him with Boller. That's incredibly unfair.
You simply can't evaluate his performance without taking into consideration how truly bad the Vikings defense was. To ignore that is intellectually dishonest and frankly naive.
Look, you give Jones credit for executing against Minnesota. Dabka put him in a position to succeed and he made the plays.
But here is how bad the Minnesota pass D was. Basically, the bottom of the barrel in:
Points allowed, defensive DVOA, yards allowed, passing yards allowed, yards per play allowed, yards per pass allowed, giving up plays of 10+, 15+ and 25+ yards.
to wince on my take but all things considered I think I nailed it! (minus Rosen a little)
Not sure
Giantophile : 11/12/2017 5:00 pm : link
why Lamar Jackson isn't in the conversation, he should be. I would rank him and Allen over Darnold, whom I think is "meh" at best. Rosen is a stud but again there are concerns around him re: personality.
I'd like to say I trust the FO to make the right call but I have no trust in them.
The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
lofl
The day you actually contribute something to a thread will be the first
lol lighten up Francis I'm just breaking you guys ballz.
Look, you give Jones credit for executing against Minnesota. Dabka put him in a position to succeed and he made the plays.
But here is how bad the Minnesota pass D was. Basically, the bottom of the barrel in:
Points allowed, defensive DVOA, yards allowed, passing yards allowed, yards per play allowed, yards per pass allowed, giving up plays of 10+, 15+ and 25+ yards.
They were Swiss Cheese.
Yup, and that's why they should have franchised Jones. That Minnesota game was a data point, not a proof point.
I'm not of the camp that I think he sucks, I believe that's harsh. And I get why some people pushback on that and reference the Vikings game since it's a natural rebuttal. There involves a level of competence to win a road playoff game regardless of the defense. It's something.
If you believe the article Breer wrote after the contract was done, he said Daboll really became sold on Jones after the Packers win abroad. Jones made some plays in that come from behind win. He executed the offense and did what was asked of him. I think the momentum of the Colts & Vikings wins late pushed everything towards the contract and franchising Barkley.
It was an error. There needed to be more sample size before assuming there was another step up for Jones.
There isn't enough of a jump to Jones from Taylor and that's the problem. If Jones gets hurt in 2022 and Taylor fills in and wins a few games, I'm sure the thought process is different. Jones just is not worth anything near $40M.
On another note, I think the Cardinals have the same issue with Murray. He's making a ton of money, but how much better was Murray than Dobbs? In the last 2 years Murray has played healthy, his Y/A is 6.1 and 6.7. Nowhere near what he's getting paid.
I'm not of the camp that I think he sucks, I believe that's harsh. And I get why some people pushback on that and reference the Vikings game since it's a natural rebuttal. There involves a level of competence to win a road playoff game regardless of the defense. It's something.
If you believe the article Breer wrote after the contract was done, he said Daboll really became sold on Jones after the Packers win abroad. Jones made some plays in that come from behind win. He executed the offense and did what was asked of him. I think the momentum of the Colts & Vikings wins late pushed everything towards the contract and franchising Barkley.
It was an error. There needed to be more sample size before assuming there was another step up for Jones.
There isn't enough of a jump to Jones from Taylor and that's the problem. If Jones gets hurt in 2022 and Taylor fills in and wins a few games, I'm sure the thought process is different. Jones just is not worth anything near $40M.
On another note, I think the Cardinals have the same issue with Murray. He's making a ton of money, but how much better was Murray than Dobbs? In the last 2 years Murray has played healthy, his Y/A is 6.1 and 6.7. Nowhere near what he's getting paid.
Good post Sean. And again highlights why the right move was the 5th year option. Cheap, 2 years instead of 1 to prove it, and a fixed, no cost exit.
I agree with most of your post. And maybe not a disagreement, but an observation. If Schoen let the developments with Barkley influence how he handled Jones, he deserves an elephant sized kick in his balls.
from a overall talent perspective. Lazy analysis just making it about a poor ranking Vikings D.
The next week against was about the Giants being outmanned at most positions in that matchup against the Eagles. On both sides of the ball. Jones part in that loss is debatable but some of the takes to the negative are pretty over the top.
How Daboll handled the end of the first Giants offensive series suggested to me he knew he had a less talented team.
I agree with most of your post. And maybe not a disagreement, but an observation. If Schoen let the developments with Barkley influence how he handled Jones, he deserves an elephant sized kick in his balls.
I agree. I just think there was no world where in Daboll's first year and the first playoff win since SB46, both Jones & Barkley weren't returning for year two with Daboll. I'm not defending it, I just see no scenario where that was realistic.
And it goes back to your original point. If the Giants liked Jones enough to start him in 2022, they should have protected themselves with the 5th year option. They walked right into the scenario and were unprepared. There should have been no scenario which took them off the tag for Jones in the event of a good year once they declined the 5th year option.
I think Schoen was unprepared for the (illusion) of success. Which is disappointing, because he had a front row seat in Buffalo in 2017.
Beane wasn't fooled by the 9-7, playoff bid, Taylor-led season. Beane went right to work to upgrade the QB position.
There's no need to overcomplicate the outcome of the Vikings playoff game. Jones played well against a very bad defense. That was a poor reference point to judge Jones. I'm sure it didn't help when Schoen's boss declared they were back after.
Mediocre offense has success against horrendous defense...
from a overall talent perspective. Lazy analysis just making it about a poor ranking Vikings D.
The next week against was about the Giants being outmanned at most positions in that matchup against the Eagles. On both sides of the ball. Jones part in that loss is debatable but some of the takes to the negative are pretty over the top.
How Daboll handled the end of the first Giants offensive series suggested to me he knew he had a less talented team.
The Mike White Jets, Mac Jones Patriots and Teddy Bridgewater/Skylar Thompson Dolphins also really "matched up" well with the Vikings in 2022. Three of the 10 opponents that gained over 400 total yards against them.
from a overall talent perspective. Lazy analysis just making it about a poor ranking Vikings D.
Should we ignore how epically bad the Vikings D was? That playoff loss to the Giants was just a continuation how bad their D had been all year.
But they defied logic with their improbable one-score wins. A testament to that offense and Cousins/O'Connell.
Mac Jones had a better game against Minnesota in 22 then DJ, with more passing yards than DJ had pass+rushing, and also with 2 TDs. Mike White put up 369 yards against Minnesota that season in a losing effort.
If DJ puts up the exact same stat line, but the Giants lose the game (like NE and NYJ had in the reg season) is his performance heralded? Does he get the big contract?
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
Shouldn't you reserve judgment on Willis until he's had five years to play the position...
Let's be honest. Your guy has played five years and we're still uncertain what we have?
NO,
YOU
are uncertain.
The Giants, the current management had him for a year and then gave him a nice contract.
He won a playoff game away with a shit cast and was the NFL player of the week during the playoffs. You are all free to circumstance that away all you want. Jones was great a number of times in 2022. Go back and look at the games Jones played in 2023 BEFORE he was injured and evaluate the OL play. It was on pace for over 100 sacks.
That said. I would draft a QB because of Jones injuries but we know Jones can play. I can easily imagine what he could do with better players. I am with Colin on Jones. Is he stupid too? He could be wrong but the take isn't ABSURD LIKE ALLL OF YOU TRY TO PAINT IT.
I think Schoen was unprepared for the (illusion) of success. Which is disappointing, because he had a front row seat in Buffalo in 2017.
Beane wasn't fooled by the 9-7, playoff bid, Taylor-led season. Beane went right to work to upgrade the QB position.
There's no need to overcomplicate the outcome of the Vikings playoff game. Jones played well against a very bad defense. That was a poor reference point to judge Jones. I'm sure it didn't help when Schoen's boss declared they were back after.
Not to defend Schoen, but Beane was moving off a sixth round QB which was drafted by the Ravens. Schoen would have been moving off a first round (6th pick) QB drafted by the same team. A QB in which the owner made public statements about including right after the Vikings win labeling him "a franchise QB" - it was much less complicated for Beane to move off Taylor as it would be for Schoen to move off Jones.
It's not an excuse to Schoen, just because his situation was much more complicated with the ownership dynamic doesn't mean he couldn't have franchised Jones, or had the foresight to pick up Jones' option to buy time. I think you referred to it as a 2 year, $30M contract at the time.
I don't understand all of the focus on the Vikings game, from either side of the Jones fence. They were not a strong team, but it was still a good win. The Giants brass did not base their contract to Jones on just that one stupid playoff win. Our team is not a good team. It was not wrong to feel DJ elevated the play of a bad team on offense specifically along the OL, and landing them some good wins including in the playoffs. He did. Our OL and offense overall could not handle a front like Philly's, so LoS matchup comment is not off base. And then we started 2023 against teams that we matched up with terribly the prior year... that FG block and Andrew Thomas was lost for those first 6-7 games was gigantic. As was a very real and obvious lack of preparation in preseason. I know the popular thing is back to shitting all over DJ again, but he is what he is, a middle of the road NFL starter. Saying dumb shit like Taylor and/or Devito (or Stidham etc. lol) are somehow better than him is disingenuous at best.
It's not an excuse to Schoen, just because his situation was much more complicated with the ownership dynamic doesn't mean he couldn't have franchised Jones, or had the foresight to pick up Jones' option to buy time. I think you referred to it as a 2 year, $30M contract at the time.
I agree, much more complex because of ownership. But in reality, 2017 Taylor had accomplished more as a Bill than Jones had as a Giant.
It was such a confounding choice to not pick up the option. If Schoen didn't believe in what he saw on tape, he should have cut him. And if he did believe in it, he should have picked up the option.
Do you think Trubisky is worth paying $82M guaranteed?
I don't understand all of the focus on the Vikings game, from either side of the Jones fence. They were not a strong team, but it was still a good win. The Giants brass did not base their contract to Jones on just that one stupid playoff win. Our team is not a good team. It was not wrong to feel DJ elevated the play of a bad team on offense specifically along the OL, and landing them some good wins including in the playoffs. He did. Our OL and offense overall could not handle a front like Philly's, so LoS matchup comment is not off base. And then we started 2023 against teams that we matched up with terribly the prior year... that FG block and Andrew Thomas was lost for those first 6-7 games was gigantic. As was a very real and obvious lack of preparation in preseason. I know the popular thing is back to shitting all over DJ again, but he is what he is, a middle of the road NFL starter. Saying dumb shit like Taylor and/or Devito (or Stidham etc. lol) are somehow better than him is disingenuous at best.
I agree, but I also don't get why we act like these are the only two seasons Jones has had.
I think from year 2 on, Jones has consistently been unable to produce in the passing game (yards or touchdowns) who has a few elite games a season. Reasons can vary (Jones himself, surroundings, etc.), but I never saw someone with a particularly high ceiling.
Daboll did a great job designing run plays for him last season and Jones did a superb job executing them. But I didn't view last season to be as gargantuan a step as some made it out to be.
I know the popular thing is back to shitting all over DJ again, but he is what he is, a middle of the road NFL starter.
I'm not even interested in shitting on Jones. It's not his fault he was drafted #6 and it's not his fault that the Giants gave him that absurd contract.
I have literally nothing against Daniel Jones, except that he's going to cost nearly 20% of the cap in 2024 to play QB for the NY Giants. That's on Mara, Schoen, and Daboll.
I will absolutely shit on that trio, in that order.
sad to see another thread about sort of football gets taken over by the usual suspects - christian, Terps, bw, Mike, rsj et al(and I apologize to those I left out) - tirelessly repeating the same strawman arguments, quoting the same tired cherry-picked stats, misquoting anyone and anything that challenges their narrative etc etc.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
Darnold is one of my FA targets this year for the Giants
Since his time with the Jets ended, he's 8-9 as a starter. Since his rookie year, he's 25-29.
For backup money, a guy that does have some really good games on his ledger, can compete with Jones, can reasonably serve as a bridge QB to a rookie, and is a guy I'd like to see get a chance to work with Daboll for a late-bloom gamble...it's an intriguing possibility for me.
Probably won't happen but I'd love to see it. I get the perception of him, but he's not as bad as most people think, and we're talking about backup QB money here. I think it would be prudent, in particular because it would allow the Giants to start the season with DJ on short-term IR. Taylor is gone after this year, I don't think with DJ's injury issues you want to start the year with DJ, rookie QB, and DeVito.
RE: RE: Do you think Trubisky is worth paying $82M guaranteed?
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
I was a miserable dickhead in my teens and twenties and again in my 30s and 40s when going through that shit with my ex wife. I still get peeved at times, but my wife and kids have totally changed me. Therapy also helps, I am DETERMINED to be the best person I can, and I never stop trying. God I was a dick, it's embarassing.
The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
If we can't complain about Daniel Jones sucking, what are we going to talk about?
RE: Darnold is one of my FA targets this year for the Giants
Since his time with the Jets ended, he's 8-9 as a starter. Since his rookie year, he's 25-29.
For backup money, a guy that does have some really good games on his ledger, can compete with Jones, can reasonably serve as a bridge QB to a rookie, and is a guy I'd like to see get a chance to work with Daboll for a late-bloom gamble...it's an intriguing possibility for me.
Probably won't happen but I'd love to see it. I get the perception of him, but he's not as bad as most people think, and we're talking about backup QB money here. I think it would be prudent, in particular because it would allow the Giants to start the season with DJ on short-term IR. Taylor is gone after this year, I don't think with DJ's injury issues you want to start the year with DJ, rookie QB, and DeVito.
I agree completely. I don't see Shanahan letting him leave though.
Since his time with the Jets ended, he's 8-9 as a starter. Since his rookie year, he's 25-29.
For backup money, a guy that does have some really good games on his ledger, can compete with Jones, can reasonably serve as a bridge QB to a rookie, and is a guy I'd like to see get a chance to work with Daboll for a late-bloom gamble...it's an intriguing possibility for me.
Probably won't happen but I'd love to see it. I get the perception of him, but he's not as bad as most people think, and we're talking about backup QB money here. I think it would be prudent, in particular because it would allow the Giants to start the season with DJ on short-term IR. Taylor is gone after this year, I don't think with DJ's injury issues you want to start the year with DJ, rookie QB, and DeVito.
I agree completely. I don't see Shanahan letting him leave though.
sad to see another thread about sort of football gets taken over by the usual suspects - christian, Terps, bw, Mike, rsj et al(and I apologize to those I left out) - tirelessly repeating the same strawman arguments, quoting the same tired cherry-picked stats, misquoting anyone and anything that challenges their narrative etc etc.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024.
If you are suggesting that Jones will be the starter for NYG in 2024, and likely beyond, I couldn't agree more.
And let me be the first to thank you for having narrative-less posts.
sad to see another thread about sort of football gets taken over by the usual suspects - christian, Terps, bw, Mike, rsj et al(and I apologize to those I left out) - tirelessly repeating the same strawman arguments, quoting the same tired cherry-picked stats, misquoting anyone and anything that challenges their narrative etc etc.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
I was a miserable dickhead in my teens and twenties and again in my 30s and 40s when going through that shit with my ex wife. I still get peeved at times, but my wife and kids have totally changed me. Therapy also helps, I am DETERMINED to be the best person I can, and I never stop trying. God I was a dick, it's embarassing.
You're alright in my book (not that it matters), even if you did rag on Jay Bromley's calves.
sad to see another thread about sort of football gets taken over by the usual suspects - christian, Terps, bw, Mike, rsj et al(and I apologize to those I left out) - tirelessly repeating the same strawman arguments, quoting the same tired cherry-picked stats, misquoting anyone and anything that challenges their narrative etc etc.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
We lost? 2024 is Jones’ last year on the roster. I’d say we won
sad to see another thread about sort of football gets taken over by the usual suspects - christian, Terps, bw, Mike, rsj et al(and I apologize to those I left out) - tirelessly repeating the same strawman arguments, quoting the same tired cherry-picked stats, misquoting anyone and anything that challenges their narrative etc etc.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
Jones played well enough in 2022 to be the starting quarterback. In 2023 has one of the best possible excuses: his offensive line increased its sacks allowed from a dreadful 49 in 2022 to an impossibly awful 85 in 2023. Even Mahomes under pressure threw one awful interception and almost another. Also played without Barkley.
Average of 5 sack/game in six DJ games. Average of 5 sacks/game in the other 11 games.
Using 3 or 4 prime pick to pick a quarterback when there is no consensus on which is the best is a big gamble. Lose and you set the team back two or three years. Draft OL and Edge with high picks. A good O-Line makes all the skill players look better.
Start Jones on a short leash. Have another young quarterback ready to audition if Jones fails. A draft pick they don’t have to trade up for or a young quarterback who was drafted high and failed with his first team.
No GM is polling his peers for a consensus. And the consensus (or lack thereof) you see on Twitter is just a bunch of media and fans deciding to agree or not.
There was no OT consensus in 2020. Should we have sat that one out?
DJ enthusiasts are a wild bunch. Not much for logical arguments, but hellbent on passion and loyalty.
Should say "The obsession about 'consensus' is strange
No GM is polling his peers for a consensus. And the consensus (or lack thereof) you see on Twitter is just a bunch of media and fans deciding to agree or not.
There was no OT consensus in 2020. Should we have sat that one out?
DJ enthusiasts are a wild bunch. Not much for logical arguments, but hellbent on passion and loyalty.
No GM is polling his peers for a consensus. And the consensus (or lack thereof) you see on Twitter is just a bunch of media and fans deciding to agree or not.
There was no OT consensus in 2020. Should we have sat that one out?
DJ enthusiasts are a wild bunch. Not much for logical arguments, but hellbent on passion and loyalty.
Come on dude. Get outta here with that shit.
Do you have a better explanation for the common fallback argument of "there's no consensus player at that position for where we're drafting!" whenever someone simply doesn't want the team to draft a player at that position?
There's never a consensus among GMs because that's not a polling sample that actually exists.
I assumed he means consensus or more accurately "conviction" among the Giants brass. Maybe I'm wrong. But that goes back to being against making a pick, which I agree with.
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
I assumed he means consensus or more accurately "conviction" among the Giants brass. Maybe I'm wrong. But that goes back to being against making a pick, which I agree with.
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
Ugh. These pop up ads keep pulling me out of the text box when I'm typing. I can never finish a sentence without clicking back in. Super annoying.
That should say "But that goes back to being against making a pick JUST TO MAKE A PICK, which I agree with.
I assumed he means consensus or more accurately "conviction" among the Giants brass. Maybe I'm wrong. But that goes back to being against making a pick, which I agree with.
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
I have a hard time accepting that explanation because you'd never hear about individual views on specific players, you'd only hear about generalized "team" views on those players, at least until after the draft.
I honestly believe that some fans just think that if Street & Smith's has a different positional ranking than Mel Kiper, and both of them have a different ranking than Todd McShay, and all three of them are different from NFL.com, that means that none of those prospects are worth drafting at all.
Or maybe they just think that anyone else will buy that as an excuse when they really just don't want to see their favorite player potentially get replaced.
I assumed he means consensus or more accurately "conviction" among the Giants brass. Maybe I'm wrong. But that goes back to being against making a pick, which I agree with.
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
I have a hard time accepting that explanation because you'd never hear about individual views on specific players, you'd only hear about generalized "team" views on those players, at least until after the draft.
I honestly believe that some fans just think that if Street & Smith's has a different positional ranking than Mel Kiper, and both of them have a different ranking than Todd McShay, and all three of them are different from NFL.com, that means that none of those prospects are worth drafting at all.
Or maybe they just think that anyone else will buy that as an excuse when they really just don't want to see their favorite player potentially get replaced.
Maybe? I can only speak for myself. I know you guys consider me a fanboi, lol... I want DJ to succeed if he's the Guy they stay with, but at the end of the day I just want the Giants to win. If they REALLY like one of these QBs, I want them to go get him. I'll root for whoever starts behind center to succeed.
The Case for Josh Rosen - ( New Window )
The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
So, BBI did good.
Is Malik Willis worth the 5th pick overall? - ( New Window )
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
Let's say the Giants take Penix at 6, outrage will follow by a lot of fans, but if he shows he can play, it will be forgotten.
It goes back to conviction for me and I'll support any of the QBs drafted by the Giants if they go that route at 6 assuming Schoen/Daboll feel strongly about it.
I made pro Willis comments that are buried somewhere.
Evaluating college QBs isn't my strength. But it doesn't seem to be a strength of a lot of people, including NFL teams.
LOL
Let's say the Giants take Penix at 6, outrage will follow by a lot of fans, but if he shows he can play, it will be forgotten.
It goes back to conviction for me and I'll support any of the QBs drafted by the Giants if they go that route at 6 assuming Schoen/Daboll feel strongly about it.
+1 if you’re drafting a guy who you think can be a franchise QB and he hits, there’s no such thing as overdrafting
Greg from LI : 11/12/2017 7:38 pm : link
.
Quote:
And that Malik Willis thread didn't age well... oopha
I made pro Willis comments that are buried somewhere.
Evaluating college QBs isn't my strength. But it doesn't seem to be a strength of a lot of people, including NFL teams.
I have never, really I don't think ever - been right about a college QB. Like not even broken clock right. And I still defend Daniel Jones. lol. Now that I typed all that I'm starting to rethink my position... lol
Quote:
None of them are going to be an top NFL QB
Greg from LI : 11/12/2017 7:38 pm : link
.
Haha I saw that Greg, I was actually going to give you props for that in my Joey post. But I didn't. lol
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
LakeGeorgeGiant : 11/12/2017 6:45 pm : link
In comment 13687183 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Are the two top rated guys and it isn't even close. Reading the opinions here I wonder if posters actually watch the games ?
Wonder no more, they don't watch them, but they continue to arrogantly spout uninformed opinions.
I preferred Rosen, but would have been fine with Darnold. He didn't have much around him with the Jets, either.
IMO, both Rosen and Darnold landed in very difficult situations to succeed in.
The guy who scared the shit out of me was Allen. Big arm, but his accuracy looked terrible coming out of college. Rare to see a guy improve that so much once in the NFL.
I was completely wrong on all accounts. But so were a lot of teams' scouting departments.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
The best lesson when looking back over the years, is to cut ties immediately ASAP if it doesn't work out.
I stand by what I said. We'd have been better off than what we actually did.
🤌
The case for Lamar Jackson - ( New Window )
I've said a lot of stupid stuff, but I think I dodged these particular threads.
I've said a lot of stupid stuff, but I think I dodged these particular threads.
I wondered if I was shooting myself in the foot.
LOL
BTW, a quick Google search brought up a ton of these threads. I just picked the first ones that appeared.
I've said a lot of stupid stuff, but I think I dodged these particular threads.
Haha me too. I know I liked both Mayfield and Rosen that draft. But I defended Eli because of the terrible OL play. Sounds familiar lol. Eli was done by that point... but it is true that our OL play has been horrid for way Way WAY WAAAAY too long.
But the heart wants what it wants, and full bloom love is hard to find.
Those posts in there. My word.
Producer (with a new alias these days) couldn't get off his knees over a QB who had/has no accuracy. Elite traits. Man, and I'm no expert or close to one but it didn't take much to see Willis was going to be supremely awful. And he has been.
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Amtoft : 3/21/2019 11:42 am : link
SF wants to move out of the second pick. I think they want Bosa or Williams as they are special. Top of the draft is not always about QBs.
I don't mind coming in and missing on some posts. You are right some and you are wrong some. When everyone was drooling over Sam Darnold I was dead set again him. Pretty sure I had it Rosen, Allen, Mayfield, Jackson, and then Darnold out of ranking the 5. Rosen turned out to be the worst while Allen/Jackson are the best. Mayfield isn't great, but is serviceable.
Willis really hasn't played much. He doesn't even have 100 pass attempts yet, and it was generally accepted that he would enter the league raw.
I don't think that book has been completed yet.
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After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
You’re totally wrong. He was absolutely a failure/bust given the expectations and cost to obtain him and getting one season out of him. Even aside from injury, he never matured or improved as a passer.
You can blame the organization for sure but RGIII became a bust that they were lucky they doubled down on Cousins to avoid a 4-5 year painful rebuild and purgatory.
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... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Always remember - the Giants could draft an inanimate carbon rod in April and by July a certain segment of fans will be talking themselves into it. Look no further than 2019, when they drafted an inanimate carbon rod #6 overall to be their QB.
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... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Well... say what you want but we aren't winning a playoff game last year with Stidham or Finley. I don't think Jones is our guy anymore, but that said he is definitely better than what is portrayed here ad nauseum. He took a huge step back because Thomas went down and they had Ezeudu at LT. The folly of the beginning of this season was palpable, all the way around. Including the lack of preparation for the start of the season and some seriously head scratching roster decisions. C'est La Vie.
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... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
On the other hand, he never gave any of these teams reason to pass on these touted QBs...
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Joey's post in the first link is pure Gold... lol
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
Ahh, the good ol' days. *grin*
You wouldn't? He's out of the league right now. If he was hanging around as a backup maybe, but he has basically not played since getting some spot duty in his second stop in 2019. It's been 5 teams since then and he can't even stick on a roster.
If the rumors were true, it's a case of him thinking he's a lot better than he is and not taking well to coaching. That's a rough combo.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16404491 Johnny5 said:
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Joey's post in the first link is pure Gold... lol
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
Ahh, the good ol' days. *grin*
Joey was like Al Pacino in Scarface.
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In comment 16404482 Eric from BBI said:
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... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:21 pm : link
tier 1 QB thing, and it hasn't worked. This will be a disaster if we do something like this.
Including this guy:
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:20 pm : link
on Darnold, Rosen, Allen, and Haskins, for Daniel Jones or Will Grier. I just can't wrap my head around that...and if that's true, Shurmur and Gettleman will need a new job in a year.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
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::chefs kiss::
I stand by what I said. We'd have been better off than what we actually did.
Fucking how? Wasting a 1st round pick on a guy not selected until the third round and already supplanted by a 2nd Round QB the following season (Levis) would make us better off in what universe? You're truly making the argument that drafting Willis at 5 (or even 7), a guy with a grand total of 350 yards passing, 53% completion rate, no TDs, 3 Ints, and 1 rushing TD over two seasons, would have been a better move than taking Thibodeaux and Neal?
Say what you will about Thibodeaux and Neal, but they at least have some positive tape. Thibodeaux certainly flashes, and Neal still has a chance to become a quality NFL olinemen. Willis has one throw in the preseason to hang his hat on. That's it. He'll be stocking shelves soon enough. Fucking ludicrous take.
The one thing you can learn from these threads is if the draft were left up to a lot of our resident QB experts, we'd be in a different kind of QB hell. The kind where you repeatedly draft a QB at the top of the 1st round every single year despite their ability because "their tools" or whatever. We definitely have to move on from Jones, but drafting a QB just to draft a QB at the expense of actually talented players just isn't the way to build a successful team.
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This thread linked below proves it. March of 2019. The thought of Jones to NYG put most here in a complete panic. Link - ( New Window )
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Exactly. None of us here are scouts (except Sy), and even the scouts get stuff wrong.
But you don't need to be an expert to see how and why the Giants keep getting it wrong. It's been an amateur operation for a decade.
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In comment 16404601 sb from NYT Forum said:
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In comment 16404482 Eric from BBI said:
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... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
I won't argue that, except to say that was just one game, we did win another 9. I'd rather win than lose regardless of the situation, but that's just me. And I don't know about you, but I (and the guys I was watching the game with) were all pretty damn happy after that playoff game ended. The next one not so much obviously.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
Eric on Li : mute : 3/4/2022 10:22 am : link
which is impossible for anyone to know from afar based on what he's done on the field.
his skills are obviously high end but that doesn't matter if you don't have an ability to run an NFL passing offense.
the closest recent prospect was Lamar Jackson and he'd proven a lot more than Willis in that area, and every team in the first round passed on him (including his own).
It sounds like Willis is a great kid so someone will likely take the chance on the skills and it could be as high as 2 or 5 or anywhere. But more than any other position fans are just guessing when it comes to what the NFL truly thinks about QBs.
I preferred Rosen, but would have been fine with Darnold. He didn't have much around him with the Jets, either.
IMO, both Rosen and Darnold landed in very difficult situations to succeed in.
The guy who scared the shit out of me was Allen. Big arm, but his accuracy looked terrible coming out of college. Rare to see a guy improve that so much once in the NFL.
I was completely wrong on all accounts. But so were a lot of teams' scouting departments.
If Rosen got "ruined" in as few games as he actually played, then he was missing any semblance of toughness to begin with. He played a grand total of 24 games, starting 16. In that time, he was sacked 61 times. 45 of them came in his rookie year. It's a high number, but not extraordinarily high.
Rosen didn't get ruined. Rosen sucked.
If Dave Gettleman posted on BBI, he would be mocked as the one of the dumber posters we have.
Thank you so much for all of your organizational crippling decisions, Dave!
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Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
That actually makes sense to me BW. You know, I wonder how good Aikman was compared to the last few years of top picks. He was obviously very good... but damn those teams he played on were loaded...
If Dave Gettleman posted on BBI, he would be mocked as the one of the dumber posters we have.
Thank you so much for all of your organizational crippling decisions, Dave!
Recently, someone posted the thread on Jones right after he was drafted. That one is a bloodbath...
So given the choice between two QBs that both are incapable of winning a championship, you'd rather have the one with the albatross contract instead of the fail-fast ripcord option?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
I think quite a few drafted QB's would show more if they landed on a really good team.
The old school approach of having the good OL and running game will help most QB's.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
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the QB experts about Willis.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
I had "high level" discussions with people who understand QB's.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
I had "high level" discussions with people who understand QB's.
I take comfort in the fact these warnings and discussions influenced the experts. This Bud's for you my friend.
I think quite a few drafted QB's would show more if they landed on a really good team.
The old school approach of having the good OL and running game will help most QB's.
Hear hear. And a good coach and system wouldn't hoyt! lol
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In comment 16404701 Lines of Scrimmage said:
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the QB experts about Willis.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
I had "high level" discussions with people who understand QB's.
Did those people say anything about giving Jones $82M, because we'd have been better off drafting 3 Malik Willises than doing that.
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In comment 16404525 Sammo85 said:
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After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
You’re totally wrong. He was absolutely a failure/bust given the expectations and cost to obtain him and getting one season out of him. Even aside from injury, he never matured or improved as a passer.
You can blame the organization for sure but RGIII became a bust that they were lucky they doubled down on Cousins to avoid a 4-5 year painful rebuild and purgatory.
Sammo, you have no memory. He was Lamar before Lamar, and Washington absolutely destroyed him and his wheels.
I was just mocking Christian with the "high level" comment. He would understand. Well, maybe not.
Willis was a pretty easy call and that draft proved it.
Greg from LI clearly had the right call. Well done
Is he even still in the league? Haha. I think he was/is on like 7 teams.
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
Lots of people bat 1.000 in hindsight.
I sadly won't place. I roughly wanted Darnold and Willis.
The one thing-if I can-pat myself on the back-is remembering in the moment that it was wild that TB12 lasted until the sixth round. I watched a ton of Wolverine games when he was there, culminating in their Orange Bowl win on New Year's Day '00 vs. 'Bama...I thought Brady was going to be good in the NFL. Obviously I didn't see what he'd become, Haha.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
If Dave Gettleman posted on BBI, he would be mocked as the one of the dumber posters we have.
Thank you so much for all of your organizational crippling decisions, Dave!
I mean there's a reason why the pick was panned by practically everyone.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
I never thought I'd say "ryanmkeane was right", but you were dead right about drafting Jones being a disaster. Well done.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
Shouldn't you reserve judgment on Willis until he's had five years to play the position...
Let's be honest. Your guy has played five years and we're still uncertain what we have?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
Yeah, but those 3 decisions wouldnt have been an option, if you wouldnt have drafted Jones in the first place. So yeah.
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::chefs kiss::
🤌 The case for Lamar Jackson - ( New Window )
Credit where due, you nailed that one
This is what happens when you listen to other DJ enthusiasts, Ryan. What record did DJ set in that win? Is it a record that the NFL tracks? Could you tell anyone who held this record before DJ?
Maybe we'll add "NFL record" to the list of things you don't quite understand.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
That's my recollection as well. And my point was, that's not an NFL record in the way that people commonly mean it (i.e., most passing yards in a game, highest completion percentage in a game, most single-season rushing TDs, etc.).
So when someone calls DJ's performance in that Minnesota playoff game "a[n] NFL record," they're either being intentionally misleading, or they don't really understand what an NFL record actually is.
In this case, I'd bet on the latter because I think the former requires cleverness and guile.
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have 70 yards rushing and a TD or something like that.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
That's my recollection as well. And my point was, that's not an NFL record in the way that people commonly mean it (i.e., most passing yards in a game, highest completion percentage in a game, most single-season rushing TDs, etc.).
So when someone calls DJ's performance in that Minnesota playoff game "a[n] NFL record," they're either being intentionally misleading, or they don't really understand what an NFL record actually is.
In this case, I'd bet on the latter because I think the former requires cleverness and guile.
A Game That Will Live In Infamy
Mostly because that epic win also came with this result:
Daniel Jones signed a 4 year contract with the New York Giants worth a base value of $160.0 million with $82 million guaranteed at signing and total guarantee of $105 million. Jones has full guaranteed salaries and work out bonuses in 2023 and 2024, and a $36 million signing bonus. $23 million of the 2025 base salary is guaranteed for injury at signing, with $12 million of that scheduled to vest into a full guarantee at the start of the 2025 league year. Jones can also earn a $1 million roster bonus at the start of the 2026 league year. An available $35 million through performance incentives is also available. Details courtesy of PFT.
1.He's got to be a leader.
2.Football IQ - He needs to be able to read the Defenses and put the players in the right position after the play is called from the sideline.
3.Execution - needs to make the throws when needed, sometimes scramble or buy time in the pocket.
4.Pocket awareness - avoid sacks
5.Health - avoid injuries, know when to throw it away, slide, etc
The rest is athleticism, arm strength and whatever.
I dont need my QB to be able to throw 80 yards on his knees or run a 4.3 40 time.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
And you said you don’t treat his 2022 like it was an MVP season. He set an arbitrary made up record
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Lots of dumb on there.
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
Lots of people bat 1.000 in hindsight.
He gave him an 80 rating which is 2nd rounder. He also gave the same to Kenny Pickett and Desmond Ridder. While Pickett and Ridder have struggled more than not, Willis hasn't shown a lick of promise whatsoever. He was always going to be raw with his mechanics and accuracy; his "traits" people liked were arm strength and scrambling ability. Lots of failed players in the past had a strong arm but was a woeful QB. Mike Vick and Kyle Bollee for starters. Running against your low end college schools is completely different than the pros. He hasn't shown a flashes there, either.
Matt Corral also had some faves from this board. He's been an absolute dud.
It was one game... - ( New Window )
The draft is such a crap shoot, you never know what you're going to end up with. If you hit 50% on a particular class you've done a fantastic job. The QB position is the most enigmatic when it comes to making the jump from college to the pros. Even if your scouts identify a can't-miss prospect, there is no guarantee your coaching staff isn't going to screw him up. the variables are incalculable.
Who said I’ve never said anything nice about Jones!
It was only one game pt 2 - ( New Window )
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another fun one from the archives... It was one game... - ( New Window )
Who said I’ve never said anything nice about Jones!
Well played sir.
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Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
This is what happens when you listen to other DJ enthusiasts, Ryan. What record did DJ set in that win? Is it a record that the NFL tracks? Could you tell anyone who held this record before DJ?
Maybe we'll add "NFL record" to the list of things you don't quite understand.
It's the "Pu pu Platter" of select single game stats combined to make it seem like totaling 379 yards and 2 TDs is a historic playoff performance.
You simply can't evaluate his performance without taking into consideration how truly bad the Vikings defense was. To ignore that is intellectually dishonest and frankly naive.
The enduring memory I have from the playoffs is how easily and thoroughly the Eagles dismantled the Giants. And how completely out of their league Jones looked. That performance, from the Giants at large, resembled the coming season way more than the Vikings game.
So today the Giants find themselves in a position presumably contemplating replacing Jones, 82M in on an investment that has netted .5 games of good football, and coming of double digit loss season 8 in the last decade.
Exactly -- and this is where the practical economics come into play.
In the hypothetical where you draft Willis. The Giants had already signed Taylor, and declined Jones's option. Let's imagine they try and trade Jones or just cut him.
If the Giants draft Willis at 5 or 7, any number of draft scenarios might have played out. We can all imagine good, better, or worse scenarios. So I won't harp on that.
But let's simply imagine Willis goes the Lance route, and it's clear after 2 years he's no good.
Standing here today the Giants would not have invested 82M in Jones, and they would be looking to draft a quarterback.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
I'd say pull up some of your points in the above threads, because I'm quite sure you have some doozies. But how would we track which of the 37 prior BBI usernames you posted under in those threads? Too confusing. I bet you can't even track them anymore. lol
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
lofl
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The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
lofl
The day you actually contribute something to a thread will be the first
I won't believe they will stop until they do.
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In comment 16404806 bwitz said:
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Lots of dumb on there.
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
Lots of people bat 1.000 in hindsight.
He gave him an 80 rating which is 2nd rounder. He also gave the same to Kenny Pickett and Desmond Ridder. While Pickett and Ridder have struggled more than not, Willis hasn't shown a lick of promise whatsoever. He was always going to be raw with his mechanics and accuracy; his "traits" people liked were arm strength and scrambling ability. Lots of failed players in the past had a strong arm but was a woeful QB. Mike Vick and Kyle Bollee for starters. Running against your low end college schools is completely different than the pros. He hasn't shown a flashes there, either.
Matt Corral also had some faves from this board. He's been an absolute dud.
Michael Vick was woeful? You're really going to lump him in Kyle Bolle[r]? Vick finished in the top five of MVP voting twice in his career, top five for OPOY twice, won Comeback Player of the Year, and made four Pro Bowls across a 13-season career. That's what you're considering "woeful"?
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The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
lofl
Compared to the Giants' actual decision-making and results?
I have a three day old combo plate sitting in my office fridge that could have done a better job as GM than the Giants have, in the aggregate, over the past decade.
Let's skip the appeal to authority, shall we?
He gave him an 80 rating which is 2nd rounder. He also gave the same to Kenny Pickett and Desmond Ridder. While Pickett and Ridder have struggled more than not, Willis hasn't shown a lick of promise whatsoever. He was always going to be raw with his mechanics and accuracy; his "traits" people liked were arm strength and scrambling ability. Lots of failed players in the past had a strong arm but was a woeful QB. Mike Vick and Kyle Bollee for starters. Running against your low end college schools is completely different than the pros. He hasn't shown a flashes there, either.
Matt Corral also had some faves from this board. He's been an absolute dud.
The grade was an 80. And in Sy's scale, a first rounder is an 81-84. So, Willis was right on the cusp. That's why I said essentially.
Here is part of Sy's review:
I wouldn't call Mike Vick a "woeful QB" or insult him by coupling him with Boller. That's incredibly unfair.
You simply can't evaluate his performance without taking into consideration how truly bad the Vikings defense was. To ignore that is intellectually dishonest and frankly naive.
Look, you give Jones credit for executing against Minnesota. Dabka put him in a position to succeed and he made the plays.
But here is how bad the Minnesota pass D was. Basically, the bottom of the barrel in:
Points allowed, defensive DVOA, yards allowed, passing yards allowed, yards per play allowed, yards per pass allowed, giving up plays of 10+, 15+ and 25+ yards.
They were Swiss Cheese.
Not sure
Giantophile : 11/12/2017 5:00 pm : link
why Lamar Jackson isn't in the conversation, he should be. I would rank him and Allen over Darnold, whom I think is "meh" at best. Rosen is a stud but again there are concerns around him re: personality.
I'd like to say I trust the FO to make the right call but I have no trust in them.
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In comment 16405100 ajr2456 said:
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The mistake that kills you isn’t missing on a QB in the top 5. It’s not knowing when to move on.
The 49ers and Cardinals didn’t pay Rosen and Lance. The Jets let Darnold move on. For some reason the Giants decided Jones deserved a big contract, for at least two years, and may give him a 6th year. That’s the crippling mistake.
Dammit, why can't you be our GM?? You are SO fucking prescient! Why!!! Why oh why couldn't the Giants have at the very least listened to ajr2456 from BBI! Oh the pain, the pain!
lofl
The day you actually contribute something to a thread will be the first
lol lighten up Francis I'm just breaking you guys ballz.
Wait... Roy kids? WTH hell are those?
But here is how bad the Minnesota pass D was. Basically, the bottom of the barrel in:
Points allowed, defensive DVOA, yards allowed, passing yards allowed, yards per play allowed, yards per pass allowed, giving up plays of 10+, 15+ and 25+ yards.
They were Swiss Cheese.
Yup, and that's why they should have franchised Jones. That Minnesota game was a data point, not a proof point.
Wait... Roy kids? WTH hell are those?
You know I like you Johnny, so at worst you'd be Connor. I think we all know who Kendal would be.
If you believe the article Breer wrote after the contract was done, he said Daboll really became sold on Jones after the Packers win abroad. Jones made some plays in that come from behind win. He executed the offense and did what was asked of him. I think the momentum of the Colts & Vikings wins late pushed everything towards the contract and franchising Barkley.
It was an error. There needed to be more sample size before assuming there was another step up for Jones.
There isn't enough of a jump to Jones from Taylor and that's the problem. If Jones gets hurt in 2022 and Taylor fills in and wins a few games, I'm sure the thought process is different. Jones just is not worth anything near $40M.
On another note, I think the Cardinals have the same issue with Murray. He's making a ton of money, but how much better was Murray than Dobbs? In the last 2 years Murray has played healthy, his Y/A is 6.1 and 6.7. Nowhere near what he's getting paid.
If you believe the article Breer wrote after the contract was done, he said Daboll really became sold on Jones after the Packers win abroad. Jones made some plays in that come from behind win. He executed the offense and did what was asked of him. I think the momentum of the Colts & Vikings wins late pushed everything towards the contract and franchising Barkley.
It was an error. There needed to be more sample size before assuming there was another step up for Jones.
There isn't enough of a jump to Jones from Taylor and that's the problem. If Jones gets hurt in 2022 and Taylor fills in and wins a few games, I'm sure the thought process is different. Jones just is not worth anything near $40M.
On another note, I think the Cardinals have the same issue with Murray. He's making a ton of money, but how much better was Murray than Dobbs? In the last 2 years Murray has played healthy, his Y/A is 6.1 and 6.7. Nowhere near what he's getting paid.
Good post Sean. And again highlights why the right move was the 5th year option. Cheap, 2 years instead of 1 to prove it, and a fixed, no cost exit.
The next week against was about the Giants being outmanned at most positions in that matchup against the Eagles. On both sides of the ball. Jones part in that loss is debatable but some of the takes to the negative are pretty over the top.
How Daboll handled the end of the first Giants offensive series suggested to me he knew he had a less talented team.
I agree. I just think there was no world where in Daboll's first year and the first playoff win since SB46, both Jones & Barkley weren't returning for year two with Daboll. I'm not defending it, I just see no scenario where that was realistic.
And it goes back to your original point. If the Giants liked Jones enough to start him in 2022, they should have protected themselves with the 5th year option. They walked right into the scenario and were unprepared. There should have been no scenario which took them off the tag for Jones in the event of a good year once they declined the 5th year option.
I think Schoen was unprepared for the (illusion) of success. Which is disappointing, because he had a front row seat in Buffalo in 2017.
Beane wasn't fooled by the 9-7, playoff bid, Taylor-led season. Beane went right to work to upgrade the QB position.
There's no need to overcomplicate the outcome of the Vikings playoff game. Jones played well against a very bad defense. That was a poor reference point to judge Jones. I'm sure it didn't help when Schoen's boss declared they were back after.
It was the matchup, duh.
Should we ignore how epically bad the Vikings D was? That playoff loss to the Giants was just a continuation how bad their D had been all year.
But they defied logic with their improbable one-score wins. A testament to that offense and Cousins/O'Connell.
The next week against was about the Giants being outmanned at most positions in that matchup against the Eagles. On both sides of the ball. Jones part in that loss is debatable but some of the takes to the negative are pretty over the top.
How Daboll handled the end of the first Giants offensive series suggested to me he knew he had a less talented team.
The Mike White Jets, Mac Jones Patriots and Teddy Bridgewater/Skylar Thompson Dolphins also really "matched up" well with the Vikings in 2022. Three of the 10 opponents that gained over 400 total yards against them.
Lazy
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from a overall talent perspective. Lazy analysis just making it about a poor ranking Vikings D.
Should we ignore how epically bad the Vikings D was? That playoff loss to the Giants was just a continuation how bad their D had been all year.
But they defied logic with their improbable one-score wins. A testament to that offense and Cousins/O'Connell.
Mac Jones had a better game against Minnesota in 22 then DJ, with more passing yards than DJ had pass+rushing, and also with 2 TDs. Mike White put up 369 yards against Minnesota that season in a losing effort.
If DJ puts up the exact same stat line, but the Giants lose the game (like NE and NYJ had in the reg season) is his performance heralded? Does he get the big contract?
The sooner we move on, the better.
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So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
Shouldn't you reserve judgment on Willis until he's had five years to play the position...
Let's be honest. Your guy has played five years and we're still uncertain what we have?
YOU
are uncertain.
The Giants, the current management had him for a year and then gave him a nice contract.
He won a playoff game away with a shit cast and was the NFL player of the week during the playoffs. You are all free to circumstance that away all you want. Jones was great a number of times in 2022. Go back and look at the games Jones played in 2023 BEFORE he was injured and evaluate the OL play. It was on pace for over 100 sacks.
That said. I would draft a QB because of Jones injuries but we know Jones can play. I can easily imagine what he could do with better players. I am with Colin on Jones. Is he stupid too? He could be wrong but the take isn't ABSURD LIKE ALLL OF YOU TRY TO PAINT IT.
We know what the Giants thought.
We will find out what they think after the draft.
I admit, I don't know what they think right now.
We shall see.
I think Schoen was unprepared for the (illusion) of success. Which is disappointing, because he had a front row seat in Buffalo in 2017.
Beane wasn't fooled by the 9-7, playoff bid, Taylor-led season. Beane went right to work to upgrade the QB position.
There's no need to overcomplicate the outcome of the Vikings playoff game. Jones played well against a very bad defense. That was a poor reference point to judge Jones. I'm sure it didn't help when Schoen's boss declared they were back after.
Not to defend Schoen, but Beane was moving off a sixth round QB which was drafted by the Ravens. Schoen would have been moving off a first round (6th pick) QB drafted by the same team. A QB in which the owner made public statements about including right after the Vikings win labeling him "a franchise QB" - it was much less complicated for Beane to move off Taylor as it would be for Schoen to move off Jones.
It's not an excuse to Schoen, just because his situation was much more complicated with the ownership dynamic doesn't mean he couldn't have franchised Jones, or had the foresight to pick up Jones' option to buy time. I think you referred to it as a 2 year, $30M contract at the time.
I agree, much more complex because of ownership. But in reality, 2017 Taylor had accomplished more as a Bill than Jones had as a Giant.
It was such a confounding choice to not pick up the option. If Schoen didn't believe in what he saw on tape, he should have cut him. And if he did believe in it, he should have picked up the option.
I agree, but I also don't get why we act like these are the only two seasons Jones has had.
I think from year 2 on, Jones has consistently been unable to produce in the passing game (yards or touchdowns) who has a few elite games a season. Reasons can vary (Jones himself, surroundings, etc.), but I never saw someone with a particularly high ceiling.
Daboll did a great job designing run plays for him last season and Jones did a superb job executing them. But I didn't view last season to be as gargantuan a step as some made it out to be.
I'm not even interested in shitting on Jones. It's not his fault he was drafted #6 and it's not his fault that the Giants gave him that absurd contract.
I have literally nothing against Daniel Jones, except that he's going to cost nearly 20% of the cap in 2024 to play QB for the NY Giants. That's on Mara, Schoen, and Daboll.
I will absolutely shit on that trio, in that order.
Does it beat the Kyle Long photo I once used in BBI Mock Draft?
Obviously your comp is missing a key variable:
One of the biggest wins in franchise history.
Jones has the Minnesota win. Which we know per the DJFC, was only slightly below one of the Super Bowl wins.
Does it beat the Kyle Long photo I once used in BBI Mock Draft?
It's pretty close.
I'll see your Kyle Long, with this classic of the Mannings after a Jones pick 6.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
Since his time with the Jets ended, he's 8-9 as a starter. Since his rookie year, he's 25-29.
For backup money, a guy that does have some really good games on his ledger, can compete with Jones, can reasonably serve as a bridge QB to a rookie, and is a guy I'd like to see get a chance to work with Daboll for a late-bloom gamble...it's an intriguing possibility for me.
Probably won't happen but I'd love to see it. I get the perception of him, but he's not as bad as most people think, and we're talking about backup QB money here. I think it would be prudent, in particular because it would allow the Giants to start the season with DJ on short-term IR. Taylor is gone after this year, I don't think with DJ's injury issues you want to start the year with DJ, rookie QB, and DeVito.
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The NFL doesn't, and he's about to be on his fourth team.
Obviously your comp is missing a key variable:
One of the biggest wins in franchise history.
Jones has the Minnesota win. Which we know per the DJFC, was only slightly below one of the Super Bowl wins.
Not so sure it is slightly below for some.
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Joey's post in the first link is pure Gold... lol
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
If we can't complain about Daniel Jones sucking, what are we going to talk about?
Since his time with the Jets ended, he's 8-9 as a starter. Since his rookie year, he's 25-29.
For backup money, a guy that does have some really good games on his ledger, can compete with Jones, can reasonably serve as a bridge QB to a rookie, and is a guy I'd like to see get a chance to work with Daboll for a late-bloom gamble...it's an intriguing possibility for me.
Probably won't happen but I'd love to see it. I get the perception of him, but he's not as bad as most people think, and we're talking about backup QB money here. I think it would be prudent, in particular because it would allow the Giants to start the season with DJ on short-term IR. Taylor is gone after this year, I don't think with DJ's injury issues you want to start the year with DJ, rookie QB, and DeVito.
I agree completely. I don't see Shanahan letting him leave though.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost.
Everyone lost. You just don't know it yet.
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I'm not kidding.
Since his time with the Jets ended, he's 8-9 as a starter. Since his rookie year, he's 25-29.
For backup money, a guy that does have some really good games on his ledger, can compete with Jones, can reasonably serve as a bridge QB to a rookie, and is a guy I'd like to see get a chance to work with Daboll for a late-bloom gamble...it's an intriguing possibility for me.
Probably won't happen but I'd love to see it. I get the perception of him, but he's not as bad as most people think, and we're talking about backup QB money here. I think it would be prudent, in particular because it would allow the Giants to start the season with DJ on short-term IR. Taylor is gone after this year, I don't think with DJ's injury issues you want to start the year with DJ, rookie QB, and DeVito.
I agree completely. I don't see Shanahan letting him leave though.
I actually don't hate this idea... lol.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024.
If you are suggesting that Jones will be the starter for NYG in 2024, and likely beyond, I couldn't agree more.
And let me be the first to thank you for having narrative-less posts.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
You done that.
Wipe the drool off your face, Snablats.
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In comment 16404491 Johnny5 said:
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Joey's post in the first link is pure Gold... lol
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
I was a miserable dickhead in my teens and twenties and again in my 30s and 40s when going through that shit with my ex wife. I still get peeved at times, but my wife and kids have totally changed me. Therapy also helps, I am DETERMINED to be the best person I can, and I never stop trying. God I was a dick, it's embarassing.
You're alright in my book (not that it matters), even if you did rag on Jay Bromley's calves.
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
We lost? 2024 is Jones’ last year on the roster. I’d say we won
Its really kind of pathetic. Get over it guys. You lost. You are losers. The Giants have decided what they are doing at QB for 2024. Its a free country and you can state your opinion. You done that (endlessly) But for god's sake move on. The decision has been made and you sound like a bunch of drunks in a bar on a Saturday night bitching about women cause you don't have a date. Losers!!
Snorkels opening up a new thread...
You're gonna lose half the traffic to this site now!
Average of 5 sack/game in six DJ games. Average of 5 sacks/game in the other 11 games.
Using 3 or 4 prime pick to pick a quarterback when there is no consensus on which is the best is a big gamble. Lose and you set the team back two or three years. Draft OL and Edge with high picks. A good O-Line makes all the skill players look better.
Start Jones on a short leash. Have another young quarterback ready to audition if Jones fails. A draft pick they don’t have to trade up for or a young quarterback who was drafted high and failed with his first team.
There was no OT consensus in 2020. Should we have sat that one out?
DJ enthusiasts are a wild bunch. Not much for logical arguments, but hellbent on passion and loyalty.
There was no OT consensus in 2020. Should we have sat that one out?
DJ enthusiasts are a wild bunch. Not much for logical arguments, but hellbent on passion and loyalty.
Come on dude. Get outta here with that shit.
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No GM is polling his peers for a consensus. And the consensus (or lack thereof) you see on Twitter is just a bunch of media and fans deciding to agree or not.
There was no OT consensus in 2020. Should we have sat that one out?
DJ enthusiasts are a wild bunch. Not much for logical arguments, but hellbent on passion and loyalty.
Come on dude. Get outta here with that shit.
Do you have a better explanation for the common fallback argument of "there's no consensus player at that position for where we're drafting!" whenever someone simply doesn't want the team to draft a player at that position?
There's never a consensus among GMs because that's not a polling sample that actually exists.
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
Ugh. These pop up ads keep pulling me out of the text box when I'm typing. I can never finish a sentence without clicking back in. Super annoying.
That should say "But that goes back to being against making a pick JUST TO MAKE A PICK, which I agree with.
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
I have a hard time accepting that explanation because you'd never hear about individual views on specific players, you'd only hear about generalized "team" views on those players, at least until after the draft.
I honestly believe that some fans just think that if Street & Smith's has a different positional ranking than Mel Kiper, and both of them have a different ranking than Todd McShay, and all three of them are different from NFL.com, that means that none of those prospects are worth drafting at all.
Or maybe they just think that anyone else will buy that as an excuse when they really just don't want to see their favorite player potentially get replaced.
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I assumed he means consensus or more accurately "conviction" among the Giants brass. Maybe I'm wrong. But that goes back to being against making a pick, which I agree with.
If the Giants have conviction on a guy, go get him. But if not...
I have a hard time accepting that explanation because you'd never hear about individual views on specific players, you'd only hear about generalized "team" views on those players, at least until after the draft.
I honestly believe that some fans just think that if Street & Smith's has a different positional ranking than Mel Kiper, and both of them have a different ranking than Todd McShay, and all three of them are different from NFL.com, that means that none of those prospects are worth drafting at all.
Or maybe they just think that anyone else will buy that as an excuse when they really just don't want to see their favorite player potentially get replaced.
Maybe? I can only speak for myself. I know you guys consider me a fanboi, lol... I want DJ to succeed if he's the Guy they stay with, but at the end of the day I just want the Giants to win. If they REALLY like one of these QBs, I want them to go get him. I'll root for whoever starts behind center to succeed.
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