... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
We've tried the non 1st round
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:21 pm : link
tier 1 QB thing, and it hasn't worked. This will be a disaster if we do something like this.
This thread linked below proves it. March of 2019. The thought of Jones to NYG put most here in a complete panic. Link - ( New Window )
Including this guy:
Quote:
I just can't buy the notion that we passed
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:20 pm : link
on Darnold, Rosen, Allen, and Haskins, for Daniel Jones or Will Grier. I just can't wrap my head around that...and if that's true, Shurmur and Gettleman will need a new job in a year.
I stand by what I said. We'd have been better off than what we actually did.
Fucking how? Wasting a 1st round pick on a guy not selected until the third round and already supplanted by a 2nd Round QB the following season (Levis) would make us better off in what universe? You're truly making the argument that drafting Willis at 5 (or even 7), a guy with a grand total of 350 yards passing, 53% completion rate, no TDs, 3 Ints, and 1 rushing TD over two seasons, would have been a better move than taking Thibodeaux and Neal?
Say what you will about Thibodeaux and Neal, but they at least have some positive tape. Thibodeaux certainly flashes, and Neal still has a chance to become a quality NFL olinemen. Willis has one throw in the preseason to hang his hat on. That's it. He'll be stocking shelves soon enough. Fucking ludicrous take.
The one thing you can learn from these threads is if the draft were left up to a lot of our resident QB experts, we'd be in a different kind of QB hell. The kind where you repeatedly draft a QB at the top of the 1st round every single year despite their ability because "their tools" or whatever. We definitely have to move on from Jones, but drafting a QB just to draft a QB at the expense of actually talented players just isn't the way to build a successful team.
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
I won't argue that, except to say that was just one game, we did win another 9. I'd rather win than lose regardless of the situation, but that's just me. And I don't know about you, but I (and the guys I was watching the game with) were all pretty damn happy after that playoff game ended. The next one not so much obviously.
And ones that needs to be applied wholesale to QB situation now is you can miss on QBs in draft and not suffer inexorably. The problem and mistake is not recognizing the failure sufficiently and not continuing to double down multiple years on a mistake or seizing opportunity to reset to advantage. Heck you can miss on multiple QBs over couple years and not suffer irreparably.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
for all the shots NFL GMs take they tend to be more right than given credit for relative to the talking heads on TV and WFAN callers who just want new meat.
Quote:
it almost entirely comes down to what they think of his processing
Eric on Li : mute : 3/4/2022 10:22 am : link
which is impossible for anyone to know from afar based on what he's done on the field.
his skills are obviously high end but that doesn't matter if you don't have an ability to run an NFL passing offense.
the closest recent prospect was Lamar Jackson and he'd proven a lot more than Willis in that area, and every team in the first round passed on him (including his own).
It sounds like Willis is a great kid so someone will likely take the chance on the skills and it could be as high as 2 or 5 or anywhere. But more than any other position fans are just guessing when it comes to what the NFL truly thinks about QBs.
He landed in places with horrible OLs (and the Giants would have been that, too), took a zillion sacks, and I think he got ruined. That said, maybe he didn't have the personality to have worked out in a better situation, anyway.
I preferred Rosen, but would have been fine with Darnold. He didn't have much around him with the Jets, either.
IMO, both Rosen and Darnold landed in very difficult situations to succeed in.
The guy who scared the shit out of me was Allen. Big arm, but his accuracy looked terrible coming out of college. Rare to see a guy improve that so much once in the NFL.
I was completely wrong on all accounts. But so were a lot of teams' scouting departments.
If Rosen got "ruined" in as few games as he actually played, then he was missing any semblance of toughness to begin with. He played a grand total of 24 games, starting 16. In that time, he was sacked 61 times. 45 of them came in his rookie year. It's a high number, but not extraordinarily high.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
That actually makes sense to me BW. You know, I wonder how good Aikman was compared to the last few years of top picks. He was obviously very good... but damn those teams he played on were loaded...
Malik Willis is one of the worst quarterbacks to come into the NFL in a long time. I’d rather have Daniel Jones than him, yes.
So given the choice between two QBs that both are incapable of winning a championship, you'd rather have the one with the albatross contract instead of the fail-fast ripcord option?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
You’re totally wrong. He was absolutely a failure/bust given the expectations and cost to obtain him and getting one season out of him. Even aside from injury, he never matured or improved as a passer.
You can blame the organization for sure but RGIII became a bust that they were lucky they doubled down on Cousins to avoid a 4-5 year painful rebuild and purgatory.
Sammo, you have no memory. He was Lamar before Lamar, and Washington absolutely destroyed him and his wheels.
if your pro RGIII, then you have the right take. The anti RGIII comment, that he had no talent, was not accurate. He was very impactful and hard to defend. His legs, Like Lamar's, were his best asset and Washington, allowing him to back on the field, destroyed his career.
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
People are wrong all the time when it comes to the draft. I though Joey Harrington was going to be great. On the flip side, I thought Matt Ryan was going to suck.
The one thing-if I can-pat myself on the back-is remembering in the moment that it was wild that TB12 lasted until the sixth round. I watched a ton of Wolverine games when he was there, culminating in their Orange Bowl win on New Year's Day '00 vs. 'Bama...I thought Brady was going to be good in the NFL. Obviously I didn't see what he'd become, Haha.
Again, Malik Willis tried and failed so miserably at playing quarterback that they basically wasted no time at all in benching him to make sure he never played again, and then they drafted another QB in the second round to basically ensure that Willis would not be the only option they had besides Tannehill.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
There was also that guy who really liked Carson Strong in 2022.
Again, Malik Willis tried and failed so miserably at playing quarterback that they basically wasted no time at all in benching him to make sure he never played again, and then they drafted another QB in the second round to basically ensure that Willis would not be the only option they had besides Tannehill.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
I never thought I'd say "ryanmkeane was right", but you were dead right about drafting Jones being a disaster. Well done.
Would be stars. I was completely wrong. And like most said, the problem isnt being wrong about a decision, it’s compounding that decision by doubling down on the wrong initial decision. That’s what has kept the giants as one of the worst organizations in the NFL, and why Jones will be under center for a long time to come.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
Shouldn't you reserve judgment on Willis until he's had five years to play the position...
Let's be honest. Your guy has played five years and we're still uncertain what we have?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
Yeah, but those 3 decisions wouldnt have been an option, if you wouldnt have drafted Jones in the first place. So yeah.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
This is what happens when you listen to other DJ enthusiasts, Ryan. What record did DJ set in that win? Is it a record that the NFL tracks? Could you tell anyone who held this record before DJ?
Maybe we'll add "NFL record" to the list of things you don't quite understand.
Recall it was something like the first QB to throw 300 yards but also
have 70 yards rushing and a TD or something like that.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
That's my recollection as well. And my point was, that's not an NFL record in the way that people commonly mean it (i.e., most passing yards in a game, highest completion percentage in a game, most single-season rushing TDs, etc.).
So when someone calls DJ's performance in that Minnesota playoff game "a[n] NFL record," they're either being intentionally misleading, or they don't really understand what an NFL record actually is.
In this case, I'd bet on the latter because I think the former requires cleverness and guile.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16404491 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
Joey's post in the first link is pure Gold... lol
You should have seen Joey on BBI in his youth. You couldn't tame him.
Ahh, the good ol' days. *grin*
Joey was like Al Pacino in Scarface.
Quote:
In comment 16404482 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:21 pm : link
tier 1 QB thing, and it hasn't worked. This will be a disaster if we do something like this.
Including this guy:
ryanmkeane : 3/26/2019 3:20 pm : link
on Darnold, Rosen, Allen, and Haskins, for Daniel Jones or Will Grier. I just can't wrap my head around that...and if that's true, Shurmur and Gettleman will need a new job in a year.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Quote:
::chefs kiss::
I stand by what I said. We'd have been better off than what we actually did.
Fucking how? Wasting a 1st round pick on a guy not selected until the third round and already supplanted by a 2nd Round QB the following season (Levis) would make us better off in what universe? You're truly making the argument that drafting Willis at 5 (or even 7), a guy with a grand total of 350 yards passing, 53% completion rate, no TDs, 3 Ints, and 1 rushing TD over two seasons, would have been a better move than taking Thibodeaux and Neal?
Say what you will about Thibodeaux and Neal, but they at least have some positive tape. Thibodeaux certainly flashes, and Neal still has a chance to become a quality NFL olinemen. Willis has one throw in the preseason to hang his hat on. That's it. He'll be stocking shelves soon enough. Fucking ludicrous take.
The one thing you can learn from these threads is if the draft were left up to a lot of our resident QB experts, we'd be in a different kind of QB hell. The kind where you repeatedly draft a QB at the top of the 1st round every single year despite their ability because "their tools" or whatever. We definitely have to move on from Jones, but drafting a QB just to draft a QB at the expense of actually talented players just isn't the way to build a successful team.
Quote:
This thread linked below proves it. March of 2019. The thought of Jones to NYG put most here in a complete panic. Link - ( New Window )
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Exactly. None of us here are scouts (except Sy), and even the scouts get stuff wrong.
But you don't need to be an expert to see how and why the Giants keep getting it wrong. It's been an amateur operation for a decade.
Quote:
In comment 16404601 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
In comment 16404482 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
... The race is on for Dwayne Haskins at #2 or #3... - ( New Window )
Interesting that this thread is from late March 2019 and Jones was barely mentioned, except a couple posts about [maybe] him being a 2nd Rounder.
… Oh, and Terps saying he wouldn’t bother with Jones in the 2nd because he saw little distinction between guys like Stidham, Finley and Jones.
If only Gettleman and Mara had as much sense…
Giants don't make the playoffs in 2022 with Stidham or Ryan freaking Finley. Jones is better by miles than those two and the stat hero many here liked, Dwayne Haskins.
We'd have been better off not winning the most glorious and exhilarating Wild Card victory in the history of the NFL.
I won't argue that, except to say that was just one game, we did win another 9. I'd rather win than lose regardless of the situation, but that's just me. And I don't know about you, but I (and the guys I was watching the game with) were all pretty damn happy after that playoff game ended. The next one not so much obviously.
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
Eric on Li : mute : 3/4/2022 10:22 am : link
which is impossible for anyone to know from afar based on what he's done on the field.
his skills are obviously high end but that doesn't matter if you don't have an ability to run an NFL passing offense.
the closest recent prospect was Lamar Jackson and he'd proven a lot more than Willis in that area, and every team in the first round passed on him (including his own).
It sounds like Willis is a great kid so someone will likely take the chance on the skills and it could be as high as 2 or 5 or anywhere. But more than any other position fans are just guessing when it comes to what the NFL truly thinks about QBs.
I preferred Rosen, but would have been fine with Darnold. He didn't have much around him with the Jets, either.
IMO, both Rosen and Darnold landed in very difficult situations to succeed in.
The guy who scared the shit out of me was Allen. Big arm, but his accuracy looked terrible coming out of college. Rare to see a guy improve that so much once in the NFL.
I was completely wrong on all accounts. But so were a lot of teams' scouting departments.
If Rosen got "ruined" in as few games as he actually played, then he was missing any semblance of toughness to begin with. He played a grand total of 24 games, starting 16. In that time, he was sacked 61 times. 45 of them came in his rookie year. It's a high number, but not extraordinarily high.
Rosen didn't get ruined. Rosen sucked.
If Dave Gettleman posted on BBI, he would be mocked as the one of the dumber posters we have.
Thank you so much for all of your organizational crippling decisions, Dave!
Quote:
Ouch, I'm in that thread talking about Will Grier.
Looking at these historical threads, everyone has an L somewhere.
Evaluations for college prospects is hard.
It would require a lot of detailed study, but my intuition would be that a 40% hit rate - assume that means a quality starter or > for at least 2+ years - is really good.
Jimmy Johnson said the reason he always tried to trade for more picks was to give himself more opportunities to get it right.
That actually makes sense to me BW. You know, I wonder how good Aikman was compared to the last few years of top picks. He was obviously very good... but damn those teams he played on were loaded...
If Dave Gettleman posted on BBI, he would be mocked as the one of the dumber posters we have.
Thank you so much for all of your organizational crippling decisions, Dave!
Recently, someone posted the thread on Jones right after he was drafted. That one is a bloodbath...
So given the choice between two QBs that both are incapable of winning a championship, you'd rather have the one with the albatross contract instead of the fail-fast ripcord option?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
I think quite a few drafted QB's would show more if they landed on a really good team.
The old school approach of having the good OL and running game will help most QB's.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
Quote:
the QB experts about Willis.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
I had "high level" discussions with people who understand QB's.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
I had "high level" discussions with people who understand QB's.
I take comfort in the fact these warnings and discussions influenced the experts. This Bud's for you my friend.
I think quite a few drafted QB's would show more if they landed on a really good team.
The old school approach of having the good OL and running game will help most QB's.
Hear hear. And a good coach and system wouldn't hoyt! lol
Quote:
In comment 16404701 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
the QB experts about Willis.
A grateful fan base thanks you.
I had "high level" discussions with people who understand QB's.
Did those people say anything about giving Jones $82M, because we'd have been better off drafting 3 Malik Willises than doing that.
Quote:
In comment 16404525 Sammo85 said:
Quote:
After having Elway threw his marbles on Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jay Cutler and then went all in on RGIII with the Skins. Can call that the Golden Sombrero of failures.
It’s not just reaching for a QB, but picking one for wrong reasons, then missing character concerns, and then mishandling the QBs injuries.
RgIII was not a failure. The Washington organization failed RG3
You’re totally wrong. He was absolutely a failure/bust given the expectations and cost to obtain him and getting one season out of him. Even aside from injury, he never matured or improved as a passer.
You can blame the organization for sure but RGIII became a bust that they were lucky they doubled down on Cousins to avoid a 4-5 year painful rebuild and purgatory.
Sammo, you have no memory. He was Lamar before Lamar, and Washington absolutely destroyed him and his wheels.
I was just mocking Christian with the "high level" comment. He would understand. Well, maybe not.
Willis was a pretty easy call and that draft proved it.
Greg from LI clearly had the right call. Well done
Is he even still in the league? Haha. I think he was/is on like 7 teams.
Our residential draft expert Sy essentially had a first-round grade on Willis. So, it wasn't a stretch at all to want to consider him with a first day pick.
Lots of people bat 1.000 in hindsight.
I sadly won't place. I roughly wanted Darnold and Willis.
The one thing-if I can-pat myself on the back-is remembering in the moment that it was wild that TB12 lasted until the sixth round. I watched a ton of Wolverine games when he was there, culminating in their Orange Bowl win on New Year's Day '00 vs. 'Bama...I thought Brady was going to be good in the NFL. Obviously I didn't see what he'd become, Haha.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
If Dave Gettleman posted on BBI, he would be mocked as the one of the dumber posters we have.
Thank you so much for all of your organizational crippling decisions, Dave!
I mean there's a reason why the pick was panned by practically everyone.
Daniel Jones set a NFL record in a road playoff win.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
I never thought I'd say "ryanmkeane was right", but you were dead right about drafting Jones being a disaster. Well done.
So yes, I would prefer to have Jones on a 2 year guaranteed deal than have Malik Willis, who doesn’t know how to throw a NFL football well enough to play the position in any scenario.
Shouldn't you reserve judgment on Willis until he's had five years to play the position...
Let's be honest. Your guy has played five years and we're still uncertain what we have?
1) Firing Shurmur after one year with Jones
2) Not moving on from Jones when we got rid of Judge and Gettleman retired
3) Resigning Jones to his current contract.
Any of these three decisions were worse than actually drafting Jones.
Yeah, but those 3 decisions wouldnt have been an option, if you wouldnt have drafted Jones in the first place. So yeah.
Quote:
::chefs kiss::
🤌 The case for Lamar Jackson - ( New Window )
Credit where due, you nailed that one
This is what happens when you listen to other DJ enthusiasts, Ryan. What record did DJ set in that win? Is it a record that the NFL tracks? Could you tell anyone who held this record before DJ?
Maybe we'll add "NFL record" to the list of things you don't quite understand.
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
DJ achieved this record as much as that vaunted Viking Defense gave it up.
"We'll Always Have Minnesota"
That's my recollection as well. And my point was, that's not an NFL record in the way that people commonly mean it (i.e., most passing yards in a game, highest completion percentage in a game, most single-season rushing TDs, etc.).
So when someone calls DJ's performance in that Minnesota playoff game "a[n] NFL record," they're either being intentionally misleading, or they don't really understand what an NFL record actually is.
In this case, I'd bet on the latter because I think the former requires cleverness and guile.