Listened to their latest podcast on the treadmill & while it's obvious, I don't think it can be understated: Joe needs to nail this draft. As it stands right now, we got 3 picks in the top 47. Of course there's a chance we could move up & lose picks/move back/acquire picks, but Chris made it a point of emphasis: the Giants need impact dudes. He alluded to the Lions draft last spring where the Lions got Gibbs, Campbell, LaPorta, & Branch in the first two rounds...all men who had a big impact on the Lions' season. Look at the Rams & Texans drafts too with picks like Dell & Nacua.
I think Joe's first two drafts have been alright, but not speculator as of now. & I know its a fools errand to grade drafts so soon, but I think Chris' overall point remains true: we gotta hit some HRs, not doubles. We need a huge influx of talent on this roster & the draft is where to do it.
This is a big offseason for Schoen. I'm not expecting a Lombardi in '24, but this is now his third offseason & his show. Nail it Joe.
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The Lions had a really good draft last spring, no?
Yes but the draft made sense because of the foundation of solid players (and QB) that was in place.
That's exactly what Daniel Jeremiah said in his 2024 pre-draft media call today. When asked if the Lions' 2023 draft strategy could be replicated, Jeremiah responded that the Lions' success was due to their strong foundation, which was built years before they drafted their 1st round offensive and defensive linemen in 2021 and 2022. They then added RB, LB, S, and TE in 2023.
The wind seems to be blowing towards QB.
You’re a joke. Giants won 10 games and a road playoff game in their first season together as a regime.
Daboll won COACH OF THE YEAR IN THE NFL his first season with the team. How is that sucking at his job????????????
Jesus Christ. A rough season because of injuries, really tough opening slate and bad play out of the gate has everyone here acting like Jets fans. This is so embarrassing.
Not only has he been a good coach but he won the award in 2022 for being the single best at his job out of 32.
This roster isn’t in that much better shape after 2 years. That’s hard to believe given what he inherited.
He needs to show why he was considered such a strong GM hire.
That’s exactly why I use the Lions as the template for roster building. They invested in a veteran QB who’s pretty darn good and runs that offense to perfection especially with the weapons he has. We all agree the QB is the key position but perhaps we look to a veteran QB and use our picks the build around him whoever that may be.
I disagree here. You've even said Daboll turned chicken shit into salad in 2022. This is how you get into the never ending cycle of changing coaching staffs.
Daboll has a better record than Belichick and Vrabel the last 2 seasons.
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I have to completely disagree on Daboll wanting a “keep mistakes to a minimum type QB”. He wants a wide open playbook with skill guys who can play multiple positions to remove predictability. He wants a big arm that can stretch the field. This is the guy who successfully refined Josh Allen. He wants that type of skill set again.
I’d say yes and no to that. I think he wants someone who can stretch the field while also limiting mistakes. Since Daboll came to NY, I feel Allen has gotten a little more mistake prone each of the last two years.
Allen has made more mistakes since Daboll left. You don’t get one without the other. Brian Kelly was asked after Jayden Daniels junior season what he needed to do for improvement, Kelly answered “throw more interceptions”. A funny comment but he elaborated and explained an aggressive quarterback targeting all 3 phases of the field will inevitably throw some picks but you need him to have that mindset to push your team as far as it can go.
Even Mahomes throws picks.
Nobody’s saying they were good because of the draft. They’re saying they got 4 good players with their picks.
The Giants need to find good players with their picks. It’s not an earth shattering statement but it’s true for Schoen this year. He’s running out of time to turn this roster around.
If the Giants fall on their face next year, everyone risks losing their jobs.
Not only has he been a good coach but he won the award in 2022 for being the single best at his job out of 32.
No one is taking “tests” on being a Giants fan.
If the Giants fall on their face next year, everyone risks losing their jobs.
There is a big difference between 6-11 with the status quo at QB and 6-11 with a rookie QB who's shown signs of being able to play at a high level.
I think neglecting QB this year puts Schoen & Daboll at risk if they have a poor season. In that scenario, promoting Cowden and hiring Vrabel feels like an easy move for Mara.
But, I think they'll draft a QB and 2025 becomes the year this regime needs a big jump up.
Not only has he been a good coach but he won the award in 2022 for being the single best at his job out of 32.
How many coaches in the league can survive 2 straight season that are dead on arrival?
Vrable got fired after winning Coach of the year in 2021, and then 2 bad seasons in 2022 and 2023.
Matt Nagy won coach of the year in 2018, has 2 8-8 seasons and then a 6-10 season and was fired.
Belichek got pushed out after 3 bad season in 4 years.
Pete Carroll went 12-4 in 2020, and then the next 3 years had a combined record of 25-26, and got pushed out.
Jason Garrett won coach of the year, and was fired after 3 seasons in which he never had a losing record.
Ron Rivera was a 2 time coach of the year, went to a SB with a record of 16-1, then had 3 bad seasons in 4 and got fired.
Mike Zimmer went 5 years without a losing record, had 2 losing seasons in a row and was fired.
Ben McAdoo went 11-5, and didn't see the end of his second season.
Why should any coach coming off an awful season feel he is safe?
Regarding the Lions comparison he's missing one massive difference which is that the Lions had a good offensive line prior to this draft. Gibbs was fun to watch but is worthless if he gets hit the second he touches the ball.
I'm not saying we need to use pick 6 on OL, but it needs to be fixed. The common thread behind us stinking all of these years has been a bottom 5 OL and this past years was historically bad.
Schoen needs to fix the OL more than anything else.
Thibs hasn't been bad but is far from the impact the coaches/fans want to see Game-To-Game and the pass rushing stats support it. And now comments like he needs a good pass rusher opposite him to raise his game are being said. That's not what an ER taken overall #5 is supposed to be.
Neal has provided an impact but unfortunately it has been a negative one. And now frustration is coming out in his public comments to his critics and positional coaches are getting fired. My guess is he'll have 7-8 games in 2024 to show some consistency and positive steps forward otherwise he's heading to the bench.
Two huge draft picks...two less than impactful starters.
Agree about the need for impact players. Drafting a QB should not guarantee a fourth year for either the GM/HC. Plenty of other aspects to consider outside of QB to consider. Prioritize OL/front 7 players. QB is in play.
Mostly substandard drafts for over a decade have led to the poor results on the field and they have been soft on the accountability of the GM when it comes to the GM.
That said he’s not going to survive if Schoen gets canned so 2024 is really important for both of their careers.
Not only has he been a good coach but he won the award in 2022 for being the single best at his job out of 32.
There is no basic test of being a Giants fan. You are so fucking insufferable with your "I have the one true opinion on everything" schtick, especially given your track record of being completely fucking wrong over and over again.
That said he’s not going to survive if Schoen gets canned so 2024 is really important for both of their careers.
I think Daboll has a very good offensive mind, and that was on display in 2022.
What's tough as fans to get a read on is what role he plays in overall roster construction and decision making. If he and Schoen are equal partners, the accountability for that QB group and line fall to him as well.
Someone stood up and said Daniel Jones is our guy. Whoever that was needs to search their soul a little.
Disagree on Daboll, seems a bit of hyperbole. Alot of playoff teams are a weak schedule away from not making the playoffs. But they did in a season that was unexpected, he made alot of decisions early on that set the tone on the season and brought the team together and won coach of the year. I also think while he took a step back this season, he kept the ship together enough that they didn't mail it in, especially with a 3rd string QB. The Packers game was enough proof of that IMO.
Agree with Schoen and Mara.
Gettleman was historically bad, and he still got his full contract.
Schoen, so far, has been middle of the road. If he continues on this path, he probably gets several more years. Another bad season might see Dabs out the door, Schoen will hire another HC (or be a big part of the search), and if the team doesn't turn it around the following 2-3 years, only then will Schoen be looking for a job. So, 3-4 more years of Schoen, at least. Obviously, internal factors to which we are not privy may impact the timeline.
Every draft is important, but when your team is low on talent, the drafts are even more important. With the roster turnover in this age, a decent draft is required just to stay even. Good to great drafts are how you improve the team, and you need a steady stream of good drafts. FA can give an assist, but the draft is the key.
That said he’s not going to survive if Schoen gets canned so 2024 is really important for both of their careers.
The results on Daboll are mixed. He did make some tone setting calls and decisions in 2022 that you can't take away from him. But he is also the guy who hired and supervised the complete failure that is the offensive line and keeps guys like Sterling Sheppard in the lineup for nothing beyond sentimental reasons.
Daboll is not the main problem, but he had a very bad 2023 and he needs to improve next year.
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The results and the resource allocation bear that out. Daboll himself is probably a weak schedule and a tie in 2022 from being on some other staff right now.
Disagree on Daboll, seems a bit of hyperbole. Alot of playoff teams are a weak schedule away from not making the playoffs. But they did in a season that was unexpected, he made alot of decisions early on that set the tone on the season and brought the team together and won coach of the year. I also think while he took a step back this season, he kept the ship together enough that they didn't mail it in, especially with a 3rd string QB. The Packers game was enough proof of that IMO.
Agree with Schoen and Mara.
Agree, good post especially with beating playoffs teams with a 3rd string guy.
Biggest issue I have with Daboll was how lost they came out of camp looking. Completely unprepared for Dallas game and then were lost in space for several games in Sept (outside of one desperate half in Arizona). And not just the QB and OL. The TEs were doing nothing, no DL presence, LBs and Safeties missing tackles, Specials were a mess and a punt return was an epic adventure.
He got things moving positively to be competitive as the season went on, but what the hell went on in summer camp this past year?
The primary job is to get a good quarterback you can rely on.
In spite of the myriad things wrong with the roster, unreliable quarterback play directly cost the Giants the Rams, Jets, Bills, and arguably Seahawks games.
I agree that Daboll kept things together but the Giants also greatly benefitted with who they were playing. WFT, NE and Philly had plenty of issues they were dealing with imv. Two of those teams changed HC's and the other one replaced both coordinators. Philly let up over 30 pts/game the last 6-7 games. WFT was a bottom 2 defense. NE had a terrible offense. GB was a good win.
There is a reason the NFL turns over a third of the HC's each year.
The thing with Schoen, he hasn't created his own direction yet. He's really just maintained Gettleman's direction.
I fully expect him to put his own stamp on the team this offseason. It's the only logical thing. Schoen strikes me as a smart guy and he knows Jones has limitations. He won't write his own pink slip. Again, the Jones contract was nowhere near a franchise QB, found my guy contract.
Yes we have other holes and deficits but to get the most bang for the draft pick buck getting the OL fixed. 1 2nd and the 3rd or 4th. Unless we make some magic happpen in FA with OGs. Saying we have invested a lot of capital in the OL is true but as noted in another thread that is past front offices. Neal underacheiving, JMS did ok for a rookie, Round 3: No. 67 – Joshua Ezeudu, G, North Carolina up & down same with Round 5: No. 173 (from KC via BAL) – Marcus McKethan, G, North Carolina. Where Joe S has done poorly is OL FA moves. He needs to hit a HR there moreso than the draft. His dratfs overall have been good. Beavers pre-injury, Hyatt, Banks, Flott for the slot, Wan'Dale R, Dane has potential to be a starting and may get his shot this season.
Getting a good OG in the FA is a must and need to fortify the move with a starting OG counter in the draft. Unless 4 QBs go in the top 5 we'll pick a QB @ 6. Barring a trade that is unlikely. This is not a time to get cute and worry about draft slot value and PUBLIC PERCEPTION if the players you want is there get them. People speak on the Lions draft but at the time people were calling the picks reaches and there was A LOT of 2nd guessing the young GM.
You can certainly make the case that was the ceiling Jones could command, but a deal with 2 years of guarantees at the 10th highest AAV is a few notches below the best QB contracts.
What was unwise was giving Jones 2 years of guarantees when he had the option to give him 1, and prove he could build on his nice performance at the end of 2022.
Just like their predecessors, if Schoen Daboll & Company cannot acquire and develop a more cohesive Offensive Line unit to support an offense then they aren't the right guys for the job anyway.
That said he’s not going to survive if Schoen gets canned so 2024 is really important for both of their careers.
He's the coach who has decided on this QB group.
He's in the evaluation, roster management process. He's been here two years.
He doesn't get some pass on this and just because they win a couple ugly games with backups, we give him a participation ribbon.
I know ryanmkeane is really smart with a long and studied track record of reasoned analysis, but I think Daboll's seat is red hot.
AT is the only player added who was as good or better than anyone on that OL. Most of the offensive struggles have been rooted in this fact. Lot of years in between 2010-23.
They need two good OG's. They may still need a RT. If JMS is not quite what they hoped, then two good OG's can help mask that issue shorter term while they look to upgrade center.
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In comment 16405790 GiantGrit said:
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I have to completely disagree on Daboll wanting a “keep mistakes to a minimum type QB”. He wants a wide open playbook with skill guys who can play multiple positions to remove predictability. He wants a big arm that can stretch the field. This is the guy who successfully refined Josh Allen. He wants that type of skill set again.
I’d say yes and no to that. I think he wants someone who can stretch the field while also limiting mistakes. Since Daboll came to NY, I feel Allen has gotten a little more mistake prone each of the last two years.
Allen has made more mistakes since Daboll left. You don’t get one without the other. Brian Kelly was asked after Jayden Daniels junior season what he needed to do for improvement, Kelly answered “throw more interceptions”. A funny comment but he elaborated and explained an aggressive quarterback targeting all 3 phases of the field will inevitably throw some picks but you need him to have that mindset to push your team as far as it can go.
Even Mahomes throws picks.
Fair and valid.
Drafting philosophy, FA plans, direction of the team, everything is affected.
Once Eli started a decline (which was masked by OBJ in 2014-16), everything was dysfunctional from that point forward.
Jones takes over, EVERYTHING the organization did, from coaching to player acquisition, was to make him successful.
The WORST thing Mara could do at this point, is be impatient with JS. He needs to let him do his job and clean up the mess.
Too many people here (understandable because of the shitshow for 10+ yrs) are ponding the table for immediate results.
("Schoen has to nail the draft- or else!)
If Mara goes that route, he will perpetuate this mess.
As Eric has pointed out, every time the GM and HC is changed
you START OVER. The entire organization has been spinning its wheels for a long time now.
Schoen has been upgrading behind the scenes for 2 years now.
He has brought in better support for the front office, worked at improving the scouting both in personnel and procedurally.
If he can't see it through (which may take several years), we will, as Arniefez stated, continue to suck, with NO hope.
Its hard to have patience as a fan, but its really necessary at the current time.
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not sure how anyone can claim he’s done a bad job when he’s coaching the worst QB group in the NFL behind the worst OL in the NFL. I get some of that performance falls on him but he can’t fix everything, especially with subpar talent in so many areas.
That said he’s not going to survive if Schoen gets canned so 2024 is really important for both of their careers.
He's the coach who has decided on this QB group.
He's in the evaluation, roster management process. He's been here two years.
He doesn't get some pass on this and just because they win a couple ugly games with backups, we give him a participation ribbon.
He didn’t pay Jones, first and foremost. He may have OKd trying to run it back with him but that signing is squarely on Schoen. So was Taylor who had a 2 year contract. When you spend that much money on 2 QBs what’s the HC supposed to do from there other than roll with who he has?
He’s not getting a pass, but he’s a rung below Schoen on deciding who gets signed.
The OL continues to be questionable. Is JMS the answer at center? If not we have 4 positions with below average talent. Our Wrs and TEs are below average and possibly 32nd in the league. I would say the RB situation is bottom as of today.
We obviously don’t know the plan but 2 drafts in the O is probably in worse shape now than when Schoen and Daboll came on board. So if we magically trade away draft capital to draft a QB we will have cap limitations because we just paid DJ. Same situation as when we drafted DJ. We were paying Eli, no rookie cap savings and a severe lack of offensive talent. Don’t make the same mistakes. If our #1 QB choice isn’t obtainable, don’t settle for the next best or 3rd best. I think the O roster needs to be built so a QB can have success. Schoen needs to draft a stud offensive weapon, this will be his 3rd draft pick in the top 7. So far one is average and 1 is a bust. This one has to be the stud.
For all the crap Gettlemen got, he drafted Thomas and Dexter Lawrence who are on a path to HOF potential.
So drafting two players while still consistently losing somehwo is supposed to elevate him to "decent" status? And two picks supersedes all the bad picks?
You kind of said it all- you are citing so few things he did well and also just completley gloss over winning is the most important.
Year two, he began the process of getting rid of dead wood and players who had no future on the team. He acquired players via FA/trade who were intended to be contributors. Some worked, some didn't.
Year three is not even started yet re: players. There's been significant reboot of the coaching staff, though.
It seems that everything about the team begins and ends with DJ. He's a huge part of the team, but we don't know yet whether he's a long term Giant, or what the medium term plan is. We do know Schoen seemed to be heavily scouting college QBs this past season.
There's no point in rehashing once again everything about DJ. Yes, it seems to be a major black eye. I don't know what miraculous 'Schoen' team people expect after 2 drafts and 1 offseason where he had room to move.
You are such a miserable petty person. Holy crap. The Giants had a successful season and you're bitching about who they beat? You don't need to be this petty. Their jobs are to win games. They won many of them in 2022. It was a good job.
I know ryanmkeane is really smart with a long and studied track record of reasoned analysis, but I think Daboll's seat is red hot.
I don't think you're wrong about Daboll here. The roster decisions, unpreparedness, Oline shuffle, punt returner issues and Gano disaster just a to name a few of the things Daboll fucked up. During the late stage of the season I was willing to give him credit for avoiding a mutiny, but that only gets you so far.
Next year we will find out if 22 or 23 was the fluke.
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In comment 16405891 UConn4523 said:
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not sure how anyone can claim he’s done a bad job when he’s coaching the worst QB group in the NFL behind the worst OL in the NFL. I get some of that performance falls on him but he can’t fix everything, especially with subpar talent in so many areas.
That said he’s not going to survive if Schoen gets canned so 2024 is really important for both of their careers.
He's the coach who has decided on this QB group.
He's in the evaluation, roster management process. He's been here two years.
He doesn't get some pass on this and just because they win a couple ugly games with backups, we give him a participation ribbon.
He didn’t pay Jones, first and foremost. He may have OKd trying to run it back with him but that signing is squarely on Schoen. So was Taylor who had a 2 year contract. When you spend that much money on 2 QBs what’s the HC supposed to do from there other than roll with who he has?
He’s not getting a pass, but he’s a rung below Schoen on deciding who gets signed.
He signed off on keeping Jones, he's one hundred percent responsible for the decision and whatever contract gets decided ultimately. Schoen may have negotiated the contract minutiae, but the decisions from evaluation and effort to staff the QB spots were made with primary thrust by Daboll and offensive coaches. Don't be obtuse.
Daboll and Schoen have both said ad nauseum how they effort decision making and fluid roster management together. This was the reason everybody was so gung-ho about this Buffalo duo. They ride together.
Then came week 1, the team was moving the ball and starting with an offsides penalty we rapidly way an entire offseason's plans unfold before our eyes. We lost the most critical piece a already shaky Oline, it became a weekly turnstile of Oline configurations, and the next week the team lost the one player on offense defenses had any respect for. The Oline in the early season was as bad as we have seen, and this is a team who has endured a decade+ of bad oLine play. In this environment Jones regressed to the check down king and was pitiful.
Fast forward to later in the season, AT came back, the line did stabilize somewhat, Barkly returned, and Tyrod Taylor showed that he wasn't scared to challenge defenses down field. It wasn't anything amazing, but I felt we did get to see a small glimpse of what this offense was supposed to be. Perhaps it's just that it's been so bad for so long that anything was refreshing, but there were some tangible signs there.
The league is not a linear progression, we sometimes forget that. With a first time GM and first time HC I'm willing to say that last year was an ugly thing that happened. But at the end of the day, it's a results driven business and our fan base has suffered far to long in a state of sub-mediocrity. Right or wrong, BD and JS have that burden to carry. There are only 32 profession HC and GM positions in the world. I don't care what other fans say or think, but these men had better set emotion aside, come up with a smart plan and execute on it. Make it work, it doesn't matter how, or someone else will have their hand at it.
There's nothing to disagree when the facts are what they are. You're trying to obfuscate them because they derail a narrative you're trying to present that doesn't exist.
Daboll controls QB decisions. End of story.
That said, it's setting up a straw horse speculating that Daboll told Schoen how to do his job.
The wind seems to be blowing towards QB.
Which wind are we talking about. All of the draft "experts" say WR or OL.