*If* you believe Daboll is secret ingredient that propelled Josh Allen into super stardom, it's perplexing to me management wouldn't want to add a high octane quarterback.
Wouldn't you feel if you have Max Verstappen behind the wheel, you get him the turbo charged V6 1,000bhp and not a minivan?
If the offensive plan is survive, maybe a Pat Shurmur character is the better approach.
Imagine an offense where the quarterback actually scared opponents. Wouldn't that be awesome?
If we go through this whole regime without every giving them a chance to develop "their guy", it should be viewed as an incredibly large missed opportunity in Giants lore.
If player determines the floor and ceiling, the coach can influence where on that spectrum they end up. If you give Daboll a QB like Jones with a low ceiling, there is only so much he can do.
Even the best potter in the world can't change a piece into something else once it's gone through the kiln.
I think we're seeing what Daboll can do with mediocre talent -- and that is function.
What I want to see is an offense that blows the doors off opponents.
That's a great question and one factor to consider is as a coordinator, Daboll had probably never been a major participant in roster construction.
A big part of the gig is balancing the confidence quotient from the coach POV, and the reality quotient of building a team.
as impressive allen's development was the identification over rosen and trade up was equally important.
as impressive allen's development was the identification over rosen and trade up was equally important.
Move along Eric.
The plan, most likely, was supposed to be FT, but Barkley screwed that up. Schoen STILL, signed Jones to a contract that is "essentially" two years. That's not a glowing compliment.
What was available via FA last year wasn't exactly exciting, so I his decision was pretty sound.
The plan, most likely, was supposed to be FT, but Barkley screwed that up. Schoen STILL, signed Jones to a contract that is "essentially" two years. That's not a glowing compliment.
What was available via FA last year wasn't exactly exciting, so I his decision was pretty sound.
Haha. What are you talking about? Daboll fell in love with Jones in 2022. Barkley didn't change anything regarding Jones. Jones changed the outcome on Barkley, not the other way around. That was a huge deal for a QB that was not worth it. Slice it anyway you want, it was not a good outcome. Don't be so bent out of shape for us pointing out facts. In your eyes we can only talk about the good but not the bad?
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
Do you think Daboll fell in love with Jones, or fell in love with his own ego that he could make something at of our virtually nothing?
If it's the latter, isn't that where you'd expect the GM to step in and advocate for an upgrade?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
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more elaborate than "if you need a qb and you're in position to get a qb you really like you do it". or why it doesnt happen in the inverse.
as impressive allen's development was the identification over rosen and trade up was equally important.
Move along Eric.
i think ill wait to do that until the thread degrades into the usual repetitive pile hump and post as i see fit until then. but as usual appreciate your suggestions.
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
in those 2 years out of every qb drafted, which should/could they have picked thats been better than devito turned out?
hint: you already named him
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Haha. What are you talking about? Daboll fell in love with Jones in 2022.
Do you think Daboll fell in love with Jones, or fell in love with his own ego that he could make something at of our virtually nothing?
If it's the latter, isn't that where you'd expect the GM to step in and advocate for an upgrade?
He fell in love with him. Remember all the reports of how Daboll tested him by putting him in tough situations and criticizing him and doing all that stuff where Jones passed with flying colors?
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
Because his good season wasn't all that good.
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
It's a good question. I am certainly not comparing Jones to Allen, but in the 5 subsequent drafts after Allen, the only QB the Bills have picked is Fromm.
I bring that up to say if you feel good about the incumbent there's less need to develop a pipeline. It certainly might be a signal they feel good about the incumbent.
as impressive allen's development was the identification over rosen and trade up was equally important.
Move along Eric.
i think ill wait to do that until the thread degrades into the usual repetitive pile hump and post as i see fit until then. but as usual appreciate your suggestions.
Honestly dude. You come into the thread with a snarky remark indicating it's not a topic you're interested in, and then post the above. Why just not sit out?
Do you think Daboll fell in love with Jones, or fell in love with his own ego that he could make something at of our virtually nothing?
If it's the latter, isn't that where you'd expect the GM to step in and advocate for an upgrade?
He fell in love with him. Remember all the reports of how Daboll tested him by putting him in tough situations and criticizing him and doing all that stuff where Jones passed with flying colors?
I don't really remember that (not that I don't believe you, I just don't recall honestly).
In terms of numbers, Jones was among the lowest in intended air yards per attempt in 2022, so that's at least an empirical indicator of some level of conservatism. I read that as a vote of low confidence, maybe it wasn't.
But either way, if Daboll was in love with himself or in love with Jones -- I'd hope Schoen would be the arbiter of sense and influence Daboll that the ceiling with Jones was too low.
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
Because his good season wasn't all that good.
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
how many of them were available last offseason?
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Why didn’t Schoen/Daboll draft a QB?
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
in those 2 years out of every qb drafted, which should/could they have picked thats been better than devito turned out?
hint: you already named him
We had the Jordan Rules. Now we have the Mahomes Rules.
Not drafting a QB to compete with Jones was the Mara Rules.
Both Schoen & Daboll would like to upgrade the position, but they knew it wouldn't happen in 2023. They took the approach to try to be competitive in 2023 and figured Jones could be the bridge QB. It was a bridge QB contract.
I think the "largest contract in franchise history" is all fluff. It was a 2nd tier/3rd tier QB contract in the current QB market.
I fully expect a QB drafted with a premium pick in April. It's the logical time to do it.
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In comment 16406013 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
Because his good season wasn't all that good.
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
how many of them were available last offseason?
And your point? We should just be held hostage and give any QB $40 mil per year? They didn't pick up his 5th year option because they wanted to see more. That more led to his contract. If they knew that other QBs wouldn't have been available because they know what QBs are FA and who is draft eligible then why not pick up his 5th year option ahead of time just in case? They didn't pick it up because they needed to see more. Daboll fell in love with him in 2022 hence the contract. Are we really arguing against this?
Both Schoen & Daboll would like to upgrade the position, but they knew it wouldn't happen in 2023. They took the approach to try to be competitive in 2023 and figured Jones could be the bridge QB. It was a bridge QB contract.
I think the "largest contract in franchise history" is all fluff. It was a 2nd tier/3rd tier QB contract in the current QB market.
I fully expect a QB drafted with a premium pick in April. It's the logical time to do it.
You don't spend the type of money they spent on Jones as a bridge QB. Jones was his guy and the bad season he had last year can cost people their jobs. Taylor is a bridge QB, not Jones at his cost.
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
Exactly. Which is why you don't pay a second contract to Daniel Jones. You don't even franchise him. If you aren't one of the 10 the difference between you and any of the cheap scrap heap FA QBs is negligible.
Daniel Jones = Josh Dobbs = Andy Dalton = Marcus Mariota = Jacoby Brissett...
Joke aside, God help us if they follow the Tannehill bridge playbook and he's in New York for the four full years of the deal, with cap hits in high teens the last two years.
I'd like to have seen the Giants make a smaller commitment to Jones in terms of guaranteed dollars, and draft a QB like Levis or especially Hooker last year.
At the least the bridge would have been going somewhere.
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more elaborate than "if you need a qb and you're in position to get a qb you really like you do it". or why it doesnt happen in the inverse.
as impressive allen's development was the identification over rosen and trade up was equally important.
Move along Eric.
i think ill wait to do that until the thread degrades into the usual repetitive pile hump and post as i see fit until then. but as usual appreciate your suggestions.
Honestly dude. You come into the thread with a snarky remark indicating it's not a topic you're interested in, and then post the above. Why just not sit out?
contrary to your interpretation, in the post that so triggered you i made 2 separate observations pertaining to this threads topic (bolded em for you). you chose to not engage with them which is your choice so maybe it's you that should move along from telling others what threads they can/cant participate in?
last time i checked snark isnt against any bbi rule (if it were there'd be no bbi).
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In comment 16406011 HardTruth said:
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Why didn’t Schoen/Daboll draft a QB?
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
in those 2 years out of every qb drafted, which should/could they have picked thats been better than devito turned out?
hint: you already named him
We had the Jordan Rules. Now we have the Mahomes Rules.
Not drafting a QB to compete with Jones was the Mara Rules.
hey look a strawman! thread is right on track to the usual termination point.
1. Schoen/Daboll regret the Jones contract and wish they had a mulligan.
2. Schoen//Daboll are still bullish on Jones and would give him the same contract all over again even with the injuries in 2023.
I happen to fall into number 1 which is why I think they'll draft one of the top 6 QB's in the upcoming draft.
However, I don't fault anyone who believes number 2. In that scenario, this regime will tie their fate to someone like Malik Nabers, an improved OL & a Jones/Taylor QB room.
We'll find out soon enough.
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In comment 16406013 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
Because his good season wasn't all that good.
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
how many of them were available last offseason?
So that forced them to give one of the "non-good" ones $160M deals with $92M in guarantees plus injury clauses?
Oh...that's right. You gave the Jones contract an A-grade.
as impressive allen's development was the identification over rosen and trade up was equally important.
Move along Eric.
i think ill wait to do that until the thread degrades into the usual repetitive pile hump and post as i see fit until then. but as usual appreciate your suggestions.
Honestly dude. You come into the thread with a snarky remark indicating it's not a topic you're interested in, and then post the above. Why just not sit out?
contrary to your interpretation, in the post that so triggered you i made 2 separate observations pertaining to this threads topic (bolded em for you). you chose to not engage with them which is your choice so maybe it's you that should move along from telling others what threads they can/cant participate in?
last time i checked snark isnt against any bbi rule (if it were there'd be no bbi).
Eric, your this topic is so stupid, but I'm going dump 10,000 keystrokes in it anyway -- is just immature and trollish. But it's on brand for you.
Fabulous contribution to the thread, bolded for you above.
1. Schoen/Daboll regret the Jones contract and wish they had a mulligan.
2. Schoen//Daboll are still bullish on Jones and would give him the same contract all over again even with the injuries in 2023.
I happen to fall into number 1 which is why I think they'll draft one of the top 6 QB's in the upcoming draft.
However, I don't fault anyone who believes number 2. In that scenario, this regime will tie their fate to someone like Malik Nabers, an improved OL & a Jones/Taylor QB room.
We'll find out soon enough.
I pray for number one, and fear for number two.
But in the pursuit of consistency, I do personally deduct 10 cool points from Schoen for the size of the Jones contract.
Imagine a scenario where Jones is an UFA and the Giants have 60M more cap dollars across 2024 and 2025.
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how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
Exactly. Which is why you don't pay a second contract to Daniel Jones. You don't even franchise him. If you aren't one of the 10 the difference between you and any of the cheap scrap heap FA QBs is negligible.
Daniel Jones = Josh Dobbs = Andy Dalton = Marcus Mariota = Jacoby Brissett...
this will go over your head because it always does but the only thing they cost themselves by choosing to pay more for a QB they won with and presumably liked better then the cheap options you listed was cap room they wouldnt have been able to deploy well any other way because there are only 2 things you can use cap room on. extending your own players or free agents who are far more often than not flawed/overpaid.
they spent 19m last year adding darren waller and paris campbell. as a card carrying member of the 'barkley is a waste' fanclub ill bump that number up to 29m for you w/ his tag. if you'd like to include their top fa from 2022 that number goes to 37m with glowinski. after leonard williams trade adoree jackson became their biggest cap # of 2023 at 19m and if they wanted they could have saved $11m by cutting him.
those were all their highest paid players because those are the best players money can buy. saving cap room sounds great but it doesnt matter what day you save it for, the choices arent going to be better from free agency.
point being there any great ways to deploy cap room if 3-5 years ago you didnt draft well enough to have players worth extending. like thomas and lawrence, who they also had plenty of cap room to extend on huge deals.
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In comment 16406021 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16406011 HardTruth said:
Quote:
Why didn’t Schoen/Daboll draft a QB?
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
in those 2 years out of every qb drafted, which should/could they have picked thats been better than devito turned out?
hint: you already named him
We had the Jordan Rules. Now we have the Mahomes Rules.
Not drafting a QB to compete with Jones was the Mara Rules.
hey look a strawman! thread is right on track to the usual termination point.
Fair enough.
What's your reasoning for not drafting a QB the entire time JOnes has been here?
He's great? He's durable/dependable?
Eric, your this topic is so stupid, but I'm going dump 10,000 keystrokes in it anyway -- is just immature and trollish. But it's on brand for you.
Fabulous contribution to the thread, bolded for you above.
sorry i disagreed with your thesis, here's any easy solution to restore the dignity of your thread at least in your own mind - mute away my 10k keystrokes. problem solved.
https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/bbi-mute/onplioidmgmiofkkbcokbfkapiifmknf - ( New Window )
The key point though that I agree with is if Daboll does have plus coaching skills on Offense/QB'ing then we damn well should be upgrading that position asap.
Continuing not to draft QBs has become a noose around this franchise's neck.
There are more than 10 good QBs in the league though.
Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Burrow, Tua, Prescott, Lawrence, Hurts, Herbert, Goff, Purdy, Stroud, Stafford, Love, and Murray are all good quarterbacks.
I'd argue there are fewer good coaches, and why *if* Daboll falls in that group, it's negligent to not pair him with a good QB.
It's also just plainly false premise. There are good UFA signed each year.
The Giants could have added an additional player in the Zach Allen, Ben Powers, David Onyemata, Nate Davis range comfortably with the delta between the franchise tender and the eventual guarantees the Giants gave Jones.
sorry i disagreed with your thesis, here's any easy solution to restore the dignity of your thread at least in your own mind - mute away my 10k keystrokes. problem solved. https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/bbi-mute/onplioidmgmiofkkbcokbfkapiifmknf - ( New Window )
LOL I'm glad you think so much of yourself.
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In comment 16406048 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
Exactly. Which is why you don't pay a second contract to Daniel Jones. You don't even franchise him. If you aren't one of the 10 the difference between you and any of the cheap scrap heap FA QBs is negligible.
Daniel Jones = Josh Dobbs = Andy Dalton = Marcus Mariota = Jacoby Brissett...
this will go over your head because it always does but the only thing they cost themselves by choosing to pay more for a QB they won with and presumably liked better then the cheap options you listed was cap room they wouldnt have been able to deploy well any other way because there are only 2 things you can use cap room on. extending your own players or free agents who are far more often than not flawed/overpaid.
they spent 19m last year adding darren waller and paris campbell. as a card carrying member of the 'barkley is a waste' fanclub ill bump that number up to 29m for you w/ his tag. if you'd like to include their top fa from 2022 that number goes to 37m with glowinski. after leonard williams trade adoree jackson became their biggest cap # of 2023 at 19m and if they wanted they could have saved $11m by cutting him.
those were all their highest paid players because those are the best players money can buy. saving cap room sounds great but it doesnt matter what day you save it for, the choices arent going to be better from free agency.
point being there any great ways to deploy cap room if 3-5 years ago you didnt draft well enough to have players worth extending. like thomas and lawrence, who they also had plenty of cap room to extend on huge deals.
This is a good point, but contrary to that. There are some good edge free agents this year. We will see how many actually hit FA
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
You can’t be serious?!! You think Purdy would have performed here like he did in SF? Did you really expect JS to take a QB in his first draft? It wasn’t even on his radar. We all know that DJ isn’t the answer after six fricking years
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
And what about his performance against the Eagles in the playoffs? Why couldn’t he lift his team then? You can’t have it both ways
If we go through this whole regime without every giving them a chance to develop "their guy", it should be viewed as an incredibly large missed opportunity in Giants lore.
But clearly that brain trust in Jones to give him more of a chance, but he got hurt. Before then, he played without his LT and a horrible line, no Robinson etc
Come on now.
coaches/gms arent going to spend resources just to try different qbs if they dont have some level of conviction in them (or worse if they have a conviction they dont like them, which is rightfully the case with most of the available options whether it's FA or draft).
when mcvay was hired in LA goff was considered a joke, he rehabbed him into something. when goff was traded to detroit he was again a joke, probably considered one of the worst contracts in football, and campbell rehabbed him into something. when jim harbough was hired in sf alex smith was a complete bust heading into year 6, he rehabbed him into something. then andy reid traded for smith and spent years playing him while awaiting mahomes. all of those head coaches eventually upgraded their QBs but they didn't just cycle a bunch of crap looking for something. if super bowls are your standard there are no better models to try to learn from than reid or mcvay. at least 1 of them has been in the last 6 super bowls.
the only teams i can think of who've tried it the other way in the last few years are crappy organizations like washington w/ howell/heineke/wentz and carolina w/ bridgewater/darnold/mayfield. Tennessee also sort of tried it picking willis and levis though it appears the fact that the rest of the league was right in passing on both of them (multiple times in willis' case).
post-brady the greatest coach of all time tried the cycle with cam newton, jarrett stidham, mac jones, billy zappe. how'd that go?
LOL. Touche'.
Quote:
Fabulous contribution to the thread, bolded for you above.
sorry i disagreed with your thesis, here's any easy solution to restore the dignity of your thread at least in your own mind - mute away my 10k keystrokes. problem solved. https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/bbi-mute/onplioidmgmiofkkbcokbfkapiifmknf - ( New Window )
LOL I'm glad you think so much of yourself.
think so much of myself? i gave you an easy solution if you dont like my posts. if you dont like my contribution why not just mute me?
This is the year to get a QB if they want one. Either it happens at 6 or sometime over the next 40 picks.
The most accretive addition to the 2023 Giants, inclusive of new players and YoY growth from incumbents was Okereke.
In a scenario where Jones was franchised, the Giants would have 50M fewer guaranteed dollars committed to future cap years.
That plenty of buying power to go the market and shop for better players.
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
And what about his performance against the Eagles in the playoffs? Why couldn’t he lift his team then? You can’t have it both ways
have what both ways? nobody plays all good games, especially in the playoffs against good teams. 14 starting qbs make the playoffs, 13 get eliminated, many of those 13 dont play good in whatever game they get eliminated in. peyton manning is one of the greatest qbs of all time and it took him to his 5th season before he threw for more than 200 yards in a playoff game. before then he was 0-3 with 1 td, 2 ints, and a sub-50% comp%.
and no i am not comparing jones to peyton manning. i am saying your expectations are wrong regardless of the qb if you think 1 bad playoff game invalidates them.
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It's not just the cap space. They are costing themselves opportunities to look at other QBs that may or may not develop into someone that could approach that top group. How is that not clear yet?
coaches/gms arent going to spend resources just to try different qbs if they dont have some level of conviction in them (or worse if they have a conviction they dont like them, which is rightfully the case with most of the available options whether it's FA or draft).
when mcvay was hired in LA goff was considered a joke, he rehabbed him into something. when goff was traded to detroit he was again a joke, probably considered one of the worst contracts in football, and campbell rehabbed him into something. when jim harbough was hired in sf alex smith was a complete bust heading into year 6, he rehabbed him into something. then andy reid traded for smith and spent years playing him while awaiting mahomes. all of those head coaches eventually upgraded their QBs but they didn't just cycle a bunch of crap looking for something. if super bowls are your standard there are no better models to try to learn from than reid or mcvay. at least 1 of them has been in the last 6 super bowls.
the only teams i can think of who've tried it the other way in the last few years are crappy organizations like washington w/ howell/heineke/wentz and carolina w/ bridgewater/darnold/mayfield. Tennessee also sort of tried it picking willis and levis though it appears the fact that the rest of the league was right in passing on both of them (multiple times in willis' case).
post-brady the greatest coach of all time tried the cycle with cam newton, jarrett stidham, mac jones, billy zappe. how'd that go?
How's it going for the Giants with Jones at QB?
Can you give me the list of teams who paid the QB after declining the fifth year option? Hint: there's only one.
The Giants have been one of the worst quarterbacked teams in the league for five years, and they haven't really tried to get better there. Instead it's been a litany of excuses led by the owner.
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Haha. What are you talking about? Daboll fell in love with Jones in 2022.
Do you think Daboll fell in love with Jones, or fell in love with his own ego that he could make something at of our virtually nothing?
If it's the latter, isn't that where you'd expect the GM to step in and advocate for an upgrade?
Or maybe Daboll simply felt DJ was the best QB they had and the best QB they could have heading into 2023 and the Giants paid DJ the deal they had to pay for that player at that particular time.
Legendary football minds have been fooled by QBs before and will be fooled again. They paid Jones because he had a good year and was the best option available. Then he had a bad year. If I didn't see so many other instances where great teams miss on QBs i'd be more worried. But the best NFC team going and one that has lived in big playoff moments over the last decade, the niners, missed amazingly so when they picked Lance.
I still think Daboll and Schoen can find the right QB and why wouldn't I? Anyone can hit. Anyone can miss. Daboll is a good QB coaching HC. I think that's obvious by now and this helps our odds.
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In comment 16406077 Go Terps said:
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It's not just the cap space. They are costing themselves opportunities to look at other QBs that may or may not develop into someone that could approach that top group. How is that not clear yet?
coaches/gms arent going to spend resources just to try different qbs if they dont have some level of conviction in them (or worse if they have a conviction they dont like them, which is rightfully the case with most of the available options whether it's FA or draft).
when mcvay was hired in LA goff was considered a joke, he rehabbed him into something. when goff was traded to detroit he was again a joke, probably considered one of the worst contracts in football, and campbell rehabbed him into something. when jim harbough was hired in sf alex smith was a complete bust heading into year 6, he rehabbed him into something. then andy reid traded for smith and spent years playing him while awaiting mahomes. all of those head coaches eventually upgraded their QBs but they didn't just cycle a bunch of crap looking for something. if super bowls are your standard there are no better models to try to learn from than reid or mcvay. at least 1 of them has been in the last 6 super bowls.
the only teams i can think of who've tried it the other way in the last few years are crappy organizations like washington w/ howell/heineke/wentz and carolina w/ bridgewater/darnold/mayfield. Tennessee also sort of tried it picking willis and levis though it appears the fact that the rest of the league was right in passing on both of them (multiple times in willis' case).
post-brady the greatest coach of all time tried the cycle with cam newton, jarrett stidham, mac jones, billy zappe. how'd that go?
How's it going for the Giants with Jones at QB?
Can you give me the list of teams who paid the QB after declining the fifth year option? Hint: there's only one.
The Giants have been one of the worst quarterbacked teams in the league for five years, and they haven't really tried to get better there. Instead it's been a litany of excuses led by the owner.
Yea, they haven't tried to get better. They just want to stick with Jones to piss you off.
Do you think Daboll fell in love with Jones, or fell in love with his own ego that he could make something at of our virtually nothing?
If it's the latter, isn't that where you'd expect the GM to step in and advocate for an upgrade?
Or maybe Daboll simply felt DJ was the best QB they had and the best QB they could have heading into 2023 and the Giants paid DJ the deal they had to pay for that player at that particular time.
Then they made a mistake.
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In comment 16406013 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
And what about his performance against the Eagles in the playoffs? Why couldn’t he lift his team then? You can’t have it both ways
have what both ways? nobody plays all good games, especially in the playoffs against good teams. 14 starting qbs make the playoffs, 13 get eliminated, many of those 13 dont play good in whatever game they get eliminated in. peyton manning is one of the greatest qbs of all time and it took him to his 5th season before he threw for more than 200 yards in a playoff game. before then he was 0-3 with 1 td, 2 ints, and a sub-50% comp%.
and no i am not comparing jones to peyton manning. i am saying your expectations are wrong regardless of the qb if you think 1 bad playoff game invalidates them.
My point is that DJ has been given six years and every excuse in the book to succeed and he clearly is not the answer. You post more than me so surely you know that.
The most accretive addition to the 2023 Giants, inclusive of new players and YoY growth from incumbents was Okereke.
In a scenario where Jones was franchised, the Giants would have 50M fewer guaranteed dollars committed to future cap years.
That plenty of buying power to go the market and shop for better players.
hey look at that someone contributed to your thread in a way that you felt compelled to engage with. i guess i was wrong to suggest the muting.
as to your point in bold, the only thing "silly" is thinking it's remotely easy to do well in FA without the benefit of hindsight.
do you think the giants passed on the good moves you suggested and opted for campbell because they wanted to spend $5m on a guy who ended up not playing most of the year?
do you think they spent months ahead of 2022 free agent period scouting for the perfect guard to give a multi-year deal to so they could bench him 1 game into his second season?
do you think last year they saw such a good FA class days before it started they said "you know what? let's give up a 3rd round pick for a 31 year old tight end who has been hurt the last 2 years"?
they chose those moves because they thought they were the best moves at the time. they didnt work out for the same reason even the best hitters only succeed 30% of the time. in reality it is as hard to hit on expensive free agents as it is to hit a 97 mph fastball. only in the minds of fans on message board is that not the case.
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In comment 16406114 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16406077 Go Terps said:
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It's not just the cap space. They are costing themselves opportunities to look at other QBs that may or may not develop into someone that could approach that top group. How is that not clear yet?
coaches/gms arent going to spend resources just to try different qbs if they dont have some level of conviction in them (or worse if they have a conviction they dont like them, which is rightfully the case with most of the available options whether it's FA or draft).
when mcvay was hired in LA goff was considered a joke, he rehabbed him into something. when goff was traded to detroit he was again a joke, probably considered one of the worst contracts in football, and campbell rehabbed him into something. when jim harbough was hired in sf alex smith was a complete bust heading into year 6, he rehabbed him into something. then andy reid traded for smith and spent years playing him while awaiting mahomes. all of those head coaches eventually upgraded their QBs but they didn't just cycle a bunch of crap looking for something. if super bowls are your standard there are no better models to try to learn from than reid or mcvay. at least 1 of them has been in the last 6 super bowls.
the only teams i can think of who've tried it the other way in the last few years are crappy organizations like washington w/ howell/heineke/wentz and carolina w/ bridgewater/darnold/mayfield. Tennessee also sort of tried it picking willis and levis though it appears the fact that the rest of the league was right in passing on both of them (multiple times in willis' case).
post-brady the greatest coach of all time tried the cycle with cam newton, jarrett stidham, mac jones, billy zappe. how'd that go?
How's it going for the Giants with Jones at QB?
Can you give me the list of teams who paid the QB after declining the fifth year option? Hint: there's only one.
The Giants have been one of the worst quarterbacked teams in the league for five years, and they haven't really tried to get better there. Instead it's been a litany of excuses led by the owner.
Yea, they haven't tried to get better. They just want to stick with Jones to piss you off.
They've succeeded. I actually care about whether the Giants win or lose.
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In comment 16406077 Go Terps said:
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It's not just the cap space. They are costing themselves opportunities to look at other QBs that may or may not develop into someone that could approach that top group. How is that not clear yet?
coaches/gms arent going to spend resources just to try different qbs if they dont have some level of conviction in them (or worse if they have a conviction they dont like them, which is rightfully the case with most of the available options whether it's FA or draft).
when mcvay was hired in LA goff was considered a joke, he rehabbed him into something. when goff was traded to detroit he was again a joke, probably considered one of the worst contracts in football, and campbell rehabbed him into something. when jim harbough was hired in sf alex smith was a complete bust heading into year 6, he rehabbed him into something. then andy reid traded for smith and spent years playing him while awaiting mahomes. all of those head coaches eventually upgraded their QBs but they didn't just cycle a bunch of crap looking for something. if super bowls are your standard there are no better models to try to learn from than reid or mcvay. at least 1 of them has been in the last 6 super bowls.
the only teams i can think of who've tried it the other way in the last few years are crappy organizations like washington w/ howell/heineke/wentz and carolina w/ bridgewater/darnold/mayfield. Tennessee also sort of tried it picking willis and levis though it appears the fact that the rest of the league was right in passing on both of them (multiple times in willis' case).
post-brady the greatest coach of all time tried the cycle with cam newton, jarrett stidham, mac jones, billy zappe. how'd that go?
How's it going for the Giants with Jones at QB?
Can you give me the list of teams who paid the QB after declining the fifth year option? Hint: there's only one.
The Giants have been one of the worst quarterbacked teams in the league for five years, and they haven't really tried to get better there. Instead it's been a litany of excuses led by the owner.
oh hey look a dodge back to the same safe space every thread devolves into, daniel jones (who wasnt mentioned in my post).
i thought we were talking about your brilliant qb strategy of trying a bunch of guys like willis until one sticks? can you give me a list of any head coaches who have deployed it successfully?
or
Do you trade assets to get a qb that you then build around?
And I think the answer depends on who is available and at what price.
Since qb is a crap shoot I would be hesitant to give up too much for a qb. I almost feel like trading down gaining assets and drafting whoever of Nix, Penix, JJ, or Pratt is left. Any of them will be about the same as having Jones and you gain assets to fill our multitude of holes in the roster.
hey look at that someone contributed to your thread in a way that you felt compelled to engage with. i guess i was wrong to suggest the muting.
as to your point in bold, the only thing "silly" is thinking it's remotely easy to do well in FA without the benefit of hindsight.
Eric, much like my 2-year-old, with a little encouragement and correction you can color between the lines. I'm proud of you.
Easy is your word. My point is there are good players available in UFA. Those players commanded more money than the 12.1M in virtual guarantees Waller drew, the 5M Campbell drew, or even the 11.4M Glowinksi drew the year before.
Among the players I listed:
Allen - 32.5M guaranteed
Power - 27M guaranteed
Onyemata - 24.5M guaranteed
Davis - 17.5M guaranteed
In a scenario where they had committed 50M fewer in guarantees to Jones, they potentially could have shopped once more in that market (like Okereke), not the Waller and Campbell market.
The implication there was no better place or opportunity to put the money, than Jones is on its face ridiculous.
Come on now.
Murray since that playoff game debacle has been bad. His Y/A has been poor.
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Haha. What are you talking about? Daboll fell in love with Jones in 2022.
Do you think Daboll fell in love with Jones, or fell in love with his own ego that he could make something at of our virtually nothing?
If it's the latter, isn't that where you'd expect the GM to step in and advocate for an upgrade?
LOL, what? Obviously the GM was just as enamored with Jones. There is zero chance him and Daboll weren't on the same page wrt their feelings on Jones.
Come on now.
Murray since that playoff game debacle has been bad. His Y/A has been poor.
My opinion can be swayed on Murray, I agree with you.
I'm being a little tongue and cheek there.
But if he's even in the neighborhood of *very good* offensive mind, to further my car analogy -- Jones is the restrictor plate here -- no?
The implication there was no better place or opportunity to put the money, than Jones is on its face ridiculous.
i'll raise your 2 year old and say your distortion from "there arent many good ways to deploy $ in free agency" to "there's no better place to spend money than on jones" is manipulation on a level my 8 year old would be envious of. but on brand for you i guess.
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I'm a rejector of the QB savant thesis. Development is a necessary but insufficient condition for QB success. I think Daboll has the development right but no one is a savant there.
I'm being a little tongue and cheek there.
But if he's even in the neighborhood of *very good* offensive mind, to further my car analogy -- Jones is the restrictor plate here -- no?
I agree.
I directionally felt the same way about Shurmur--hiring him and not drafting a QB felt really foolish.
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In comment 16406013 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
Because his good season wasn't all that good.
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
how many of them were available last offseason?
Let's say there are 32 people who need cars. And they all go to the Bugatti dealer to get the absolute best car they can, but Bugatti only has 10 available.
If you're not one of the lucky 10 to get their available Bugatti inventory, should you settle for a hunk of shit Yugo that breaks down all the time, at a mere 15% discount off the Bugatti monthly payment? Or should you pay the appropriate price for what the unreliable Yugo actually provides since it's only ever going to be a glorified placeholder at best, until you actually have a shot to get one of the next batch of Bugattis?
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In comment 16406126 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16406114 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16406077 Go Terps said:
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It's not just the cap space. They are costing themselves opportunities to look at other QBs that may or may not develop into someone that could approach that top group. How is that not clear yet?
coaches/gms arent going to spend resources just to try different qbs if they dont have some level of conviction in them (or worse if they have a conviction they dont like them, which is rightfully the case with most of the available options whether it's FA or draft).
when mcvay was hired in LA goff was considered a joke, he rehabbed him into something. when goff was traded to detroit he was again a joke, probably considered one of the worst contracts in football, and campbell rehabbed him into something. when jim harbough was hired in sf alex smith was a complete bust heading into year 6, he rehabbed him into something. then andy reid traded for smith and spent years playing him while awaiting mahomes. all of those head coaches eventually upgraded their QBs but they didn't just cycle a bunch of crap looking for something. if super bowls are your standard there are no better models to try to learn from than reid or mcvay. at least 1 of them has been in the last 6 super bowls.
the only teams i can think of who've tried it the other way in the last few years are crappy organizations like washington w/ howell/heineke/wentz and carolina w/ bridgewater/darnold/mayfield. Tennessee also sort of tried it picking willis and levis though it appears the fact that the rest of the league was right in passing on both of them (multiple times in willis' case).
post-brady the greatest coach of all time tried the cycle with cam newton, jarrett stidham, mac jones, billy zappe. how'd that go?
How's it going for the Giants with Jones at QB?
Can you give me the list of teams who paid the QB after declining the fifth year option? Hint: there's only one.
The Giants have been one of the worst quarterbacked teams in the league for five years, and they haven't really tried to get better there. Instead it's been a litany of excuses led by the owner.
Yea, they haven't tried to get better. They just want to stick with Jones to piss you off.
They've succeeded. I actually care about whether the Giants win or lose.
You're not the only one. We all want that. You do get that right? And before you go off on drafting QBs every year just know teams don't do that. Basically never. Teams don't want to start over at QB unless they are damn sure the one they have is a lost cause AND, wait for this one, AND they can actually find one they like in the draft or FA.
Timing matters. This could be the year they get another one and wait for it, he might suck too. We need to get lucky and good at the same time.
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In comment 16406025 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16406013 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
Because his good season wasn't all that good.
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
how many of them were available last offseason?
Let's say there are 32 people who need cars. And they all go to the Bugatti dealer to get the absolute best car they can, but Bugatti only has 10 available.
If you're not one of the lucky 10 to get their available Bugatti inventory, should you settle for a hunk of shit Yugo that breaks down all the time, at a mere 15% discount off the Bugatti monthly payment? Or should you pay the appropriate price for what the unreliable Yugo actually provides since it's only ever going to be a glorified placeholder at best, until you actually have a shot to get one of the next batch of Bugattis?
im not sure you realize how good of an analogy this is.
assuming the other 22 still need a car to drive themselves place and they cant get 1 of the 10 bugatis, i would suspect that they buy whatever the next best automobile that meets their needs with inventory available. they dont just drop down to the cheapest unreliable thing they can find because they didnt get bugati.
they obviously didnt view jones as a yugo, they viewed him as something in between bugati and yugo, but more specifically better than whatever their other 22 options were.
I like Kelly's concept of team building. I think Toth's point on Lamar is a good one and plenty of good QB's on that list have also come up small in the playoffs.
The bridge QB mentality is a loser one. Build a really good team and get the best QB you can but expectations should still be to win big. Plenty of SB's have been won without a upper tier/elite QB. Some QB's did really step up in the playoffs though like Flacco with the Ravens. Overpaying QB's is not a good strategy but a lot of pressure to win so it happens. I like the Giants to draft a QB if possible.
The implication there was no better place or opportunity to put the money, than Jones is on its face ridiculous.
i'll raise your 2 year old and say your distortion from "there arent many good ways to deploy $ in free agency" to "there's no better place to spend money than on jones" is manipulation on a level my 8 year old would be envious of. but on brand for you i guess.
LOL come on Eric. You expressly said they wouldn't have been able to deploy that money well any other way.
So what was it Eric, "any other way" or "many good ways" -- you're not making much sense.
but the only thing they cost themselves by choosing to pay more for a QB they won with and presumably liked better then the cheap options you listed was cap room they wouldnt have been able to deploy well any other way because there are only 2 things you can use cap room on. extending your own players or free agents who are far more often than not flawed/overpaid.
Curious how that meshes with tagging Jones in 2023? I'm being earnest, not my usual obnoxious self.
I like Kelly's concept of team building. I think Toth's point on Lamar is a good one and plenty of good QB's on that list have also come up small in the playoffs.
The bridge QB mentality is a loser one. Build a really good team and get the best QB you can but expectations should still be to win big. Plenty of SB's have been won without a upper tier/elite QB. Some QB's did really step up in the playoffs though like Flacco with the Ravens. Overpaying QB's is not a good strategy but a lot of pressure to win so it happens. I like the Giants to draft a QB if possible.
The league has changed since the Flacco Ravens superbowl. The refereeing, rules and more are catered toward passing. It's a new NFL and passing and scoring big points passing is what it's about. You need an elite passing attack to win superbowls these days imo. It's all about stopping the pass and passing. Opposite of Gettlemans motto lol
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
I think they really like DJ. What other reason could there be for not getting a QB?
how many good nfl qbs exist in total on planet earth? 10?
how many of them were available last offseason?
Let's say there are 32 people who need cars. And they all go to the Bugatti dealer to get the absolute best car they can, but Bugatti only has 10 available.
If you're not one of the lucky 10 to get their available Bugatti inventory, should you settle for a hunk of shit Yugo that breaks down all the time, at a mere 15% discount off the Bugatti monthly payment? Or should you pay the appropriate price for what the unreliable Yugo actually provides since it's only ever going to be a glorified placeholder at best, until you actually have a shot to get one of the next batch of Bugattis?
im not sure you realize how good of an analogy this is.
assuming the other 22 still need a car to drive themselves place and they cant get 1 of the 10 bugatis, i would suspect that they buy whatever the next best automobile that meets their needs with inventory available. they dont just drop down to the cheapest unreliable thing they can find because they didnt get bugati.
they obviously didnt view jones as a yugo, they viewed him as something in between bugati and yugo, but more specifically better than whatever their other 22 options were.
Seems like there are people that can't tell how big a difference there is between a hunk of shit Yugo and a Bugatti, or that they aren't remotely comps.
Even worse are those that own disappointing, unreliable Yugos for years with the hope they will someday turn into a Bugatti. So they overspend on them considerably waiting for that "day" to come. But it never does.
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Why didn’t Schoen/Daboll draft a QB?
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
I think they really like DJ. What other reason could there be for not getting a QB?
Incompetence?
The Patriots never went more than three years without drafting at least a developmental QB, even during the peak years of the Brady dynasty.
It doesn't matter whether they like DJ or not; it's gross negligence to ignore the position in the draft entirely for 5+ years. And even more embarrassing to do so when the QB1 has had injury issues and middling performance along the way.
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The implication there was no better place or opportunity to put the money, than Jones is on its face ridiculous.
i'll raise your 2 year old and say your distortion from "there arent many good ways to deploy $ in free agency" to "there's no better place to spend money than on jones" is manipulation on a level my 8 year old would be envious of. but on brand for you i guess.
LOL come on Eric. You expressly said they wouldn't have been able to deploy that money well any other way.
So what was it Eric, "any other way" or "many good ways" -- you're not making much sense.
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but the only thing they cost themselves by choosing to pay more for a QB they won with and presumably liked better then the cheap options you listed was cap room they wouldnt have been able to deploy well any other way because there are only 2 things you can use cap room on. extending your own players or free agents who are far more often than not flawed/overpaid.
you choose the weirdest pedantic things to harp on with my 11k character posts, and its annoying that you often do it without quoting the post in the first place so when i reply to without my exact quote as i did in the previous comment you act like it's some "gotcha". so apologies about the shorthand not making sense but if you want my exact words just quote them in the first place.
if you read in full the original quote you just reposted and i bolded, i really dont understand why it's so difficult for you to grasp the meaning of what i wrote as simply as what it says which is that there was no good use of that cap room bc free agency most often leads to overpaying flawed players (unless a gm has your clairvoyant FA hindsight, which none actually do). you like to take 1 or 2 fragments of what i write out of context and rearrange them like an equation but i didnt make any comment in there on daniel jones value, just the likely negative value of the opportunity cost of it in FA since they bought a lot of negative value with the money they actually had to spend. more money to spend wouldnt have created more value to buy on the market or smarter buying decisions.
you apparently dont like my contributions (but wont mute me) and i have 11k character posts to write so maybe lets just save some time and stop taking what i say out of context?
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The number 1 most exciting thing about hiring Daboll as HC and bringing in Kafka as OC is that they were a combination of the coaches who worked with/developed arguably the 2 best QBs in football (Mahomes 1 obviously, Allen is the debatable 2).
If we go through this whole regime without every giving them a chance to develop "their guy", it should be viewed as an incredibly large missed opportunity in Giants lore.
But clearly that brain trust in Jones to give him more of a chance, but he got hurt. Before then, he played without his LT and a horrible line, no Robinson etc
So true.
I don't think he's a Yugo. He's a Chevy Silverado. He can do a lot of stuff, unreliably, but probably not the one most important thing needed to win on the track.
I felt at the time, and obviously feel more strongly now, that after 2022, the Giants should have made a one year commitment to Jones.
I like Daboll and like his offense and I think they should have taken Jones on another test drive.
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In comment 16406013 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
And what about his performance against the Eagles in the playoffs? Why couldn’t he lift his team then? You can’t have it both ways
have what both ways? nobody plays all good games, especially in the playoffs against good teams. 14 starting qbs make the playoffs, 13 get eliminated, many of those 13 dont play good in whatever game they get eliminated in. peyton manning is one of the greatest qbs of all time and it took him to his 5th season before he threw for more than 200 yards in a playoff game. before then he was 0-3 with 1 td, 2 ints, and a sub-50% comp%.
and no i am not comparing jones to peyton manning. i am saying your expectations are wrong regardless of the qb if you think 1 bad playoff game invalidates them.
To put the Eagle playoff game on DJs back is ridiculous. That game was a train wreck for the entire team that any fair-minded person would realize. He never had a chance.
I didn't take what you said out of context. I directly quoted you. In clear terms you said:
Your intent and the context are crystal clear. Stop playing the victim. You contradicted yourself. I'm not going to mute you and garble up the flow of a thread I started, just because you can't keep your thoughts consistent.
If you can get a elite QB great but I am not buying that you can't win a SB. It makes it harder but it has been done and will be done again imv.
You also have SB losers who were led by a QB who was not elite and I would even question upper tier more recently.
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In comment 16406128 djm said:
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In comment 16406126 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16406114 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16406077 Go Terps said:
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It's not just the cap space. They are costing themselves opportunities to look at other QBs that may or may not develop into someone that could approach that top group. How is that not clear yet?
coaches/gms arent going to spend resources just to try different qbs if they dont have some level of conviction in them (or worse if they have a conviction they dont like them, which is rightfully the case with most of the available options whether it's FA or draft).
when mcvay was hired in LA goff was considered a joke, he rehabbed him into something. when goff was traded to detroit he was again a joke, probably considered one of the worst contracts in football, and campbell rehabbed him into something. when jim harbough was hired in sf alex smith was a complete bust heading into year 6, he rehabbed him into something. then andy reid traded for smith and spent years playing him while awaiting mahomes. all of those head coaches eventually upgraded their QBs but they didn't just cycle a bunch of crap looking for something. if super bowls are your standard there are no better models to try to learn from than reid or mcvay. at least 1 of them has been in the last 6 super bowls.
the only teams i can think of who've tried it the other way in the last few years are crappy organizations like washington w/ howell/heineke/wentz and carolina w/ bridgewater/darnold/mayfield. Tennessee also sort of tried it picking willis and levis though it appears the fact that the rest of the league was right in passing on both of them (multiple times in willis' case).
post-brady the greatest coach of all time tried the cycle with cam newton, jarrett stidham, mac jones, billy zappe. how'd that go?
How's it going for the Giants with Jones at QB?
Can you give me the list of teams who paid the QB after declining the fifth year option? Hint: there's only one.
The Giants have been one of the worst quarterbacked teams in the league for five years, and they haven't really tried to get better there. Instead it's been a litany of excuses led by the owner.
Yea, they haven't tried to get better. They just want to stick with Jones to piss you off.
They've succeeded. I actually care about whether the Giants win or lose.
You're not the only one. We all want that. You do get that right? And before you go off on drafting QBs every year just know teams don't do that. Basically never. Teams don't want to start over at QB unless they are damn sure the one they have is a lost cause AND, wait for this one, AND they can actually find one they like in the draft or FA.
Timing matters. This could be the year they get another one and wait for it, he might suck too. We need to get lucky and good at the same time.
How are things going with the multiple coaching changes? How are things going with the inept OL? How are things going with subpar receivers? How are thing going with all the injuries? How are things going with no running game, except for 1 or 2 break outs a game, most stoped a LOS?
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Why didn’t Schoen/Daboll draft a QB?
They have had 18 draft picks in 2 years, 0 QBs
Thats after not using the 5th year on Jones. Thats with Brock Purdy on the board in rd 7
(And no Im not saying they should have known or even taken Purdy) just you cant hit a pitch you dont swing at. QB hasnt been treated like a need by Schoen & Daboll
in those 2 years out of every qb drafted, which should/could they have picked thats been better than devito turned out?
hint: you already named him
If your thesis is that Daboll is a QB savant than coaching plays a role in that now doesn’t it?
If you are that Purdy is the only conceivable QB drafted that he could have been good here because he is the only one who is good in the NFL well then you are using the talent alone argument and coaching would have no bearing on who turns out good and who doesn’t
This thread is asking about that theory that Daboll is a QB savant and we simply haven’t drafted a single QB in 18 picks for him
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In comment 16406107 Mayo2JZ said:
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In comment 16406013 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16405996 robbieballs2003 said:
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if he is so good then why was Jones so bad and why did Daboll sign off on signing him to a $40 mil oer year deal?
why do the 5 bad games (he was good vs az) count more than the full season of pretty good performances he got out of him?
who was the better qb to get? (not just cheaper)
didnt he also get pretty good performances out of tyrod and devito this year?
i know we all mostly tuned out after the bye (myself included) but this season could have easily gotten fromm-y after the jet debacle and road losses in lv/dal with devito as only healthy qb. daboll did an impressive job getting the team to compete (and beat) a few playoff teams in the 4-3 finish. gb, phi, lar.
And what about his performance against the Eagles in the playoffs? Why couldn’t he lift his team then? You can’t have it both ways
have what both ways? nobody plays all good games, especially in the playoffs against good teams. 14 starting qbs make the playoffs, 13 get eliminated, many of those 13 dont play good in whatever game they get eliminated in. peyton manning is one of the greatest qbs of all time and it took him to his 5th season before he threw for more than 200 yards in a playoff game. before then he was 0-3 with 1 td, 2 ints, and a sub-50% comp%.
and no i am not comparing jones to peyton manning. i am saying your expectations are wrong regardless of the qb if you think 1 bad playoff game invalidates them.
To put the Eagle playoff game on DJs back is ridiculous. That game was a train wreck for the entire team that any fair-minded person would realize. He never had a chance.
It's the inconsistency that I love the most.
The Eagles game is on the entire team.
The Vikings game, that's all Jones.
It's like convincing yourself that the sour milk in your fridge is a great outcome because it saves you a trip to go buy cottage cheese.
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you apparently dont like my contributions (but wont mute me) and i have 11k character posts to write so maybe lets just save some time and stop taking what i say out of context?
I didn't take what you said out of context. I directly quoted you. In clear terms you said:
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they wouldnt have been able to deploy well any other way because there are only 2 things you can use cap room on.
Your intent and the context are crystal clear. Stop playing the victim. You contradicted yourself. I'm not going to mute you and garble up the flow of a thread I started, just because you can't keep your thoughts consistent.
its like talking to the warden at shawshank - i am not contradicting anything, read the exact words you continue to repost a commentary on the value of the ALTERNATIVES. here is my last try articulating this to you:
put whatever description you want on jones as a negative value contract
if the alternative uses of $ in FA last year were even less desireable than spending 14m on darren waller and 5m on parris campbell which ended up $ for $ just as negative value
then they were not better. that is not a commentary on jones in the positive, it is a commentary on the alternatives in the negative.
on the whole free agent spending is more often negative than postive, the best case is a class like 2016 and even that ended up cratering, but we aren't even just talking about blanket fa spending in this case - we are talking about FA spending after you've already spent like $50m worth of aav on what were your plan A (waller), B (barkley), C (okereke), D (campbell), E (slayton) players.
and if your retort to this is "well they could have spent on better players" wrong again bc the entire point is that there are rarely good players available in FA. they traded a 3rd for waller on a higher AAV than the 3 highest paid FA WRs on the market who they could have signed for no draft cost (lazard, meyers, obj). 3 out of those 4 teams already wish they didnt do those deals, and im pretty sure all 3 were their teams biggest FA addition by aav (not counting rodgers trade, which is also already probably a regret).
If you can get a elite QB great but I am not buying that you can't win a SB. It makes it harder but it has been done and will be done again imv.
You also have SB losers who were led by a QB who was not elite and I would even question upper tier more recently.
Foles played at an elite level that year, Peyton did too Maybe not in the supetbowl, Russ also was elite then
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Manning, Wilson and Foles say otherwise. Manning's Broncos got crushed when they were the league leading passing team and then they won the SB when he was throwing flutter balls. In the SB his QBR was 8.6.
If you can get a elite QB great but I am not buying that you can't win a SB. It makes it harder but it has been done and will be done again imv.
You also have SB losers who were led by a QB who was not elite and I would even question upper tier more recently.
Foles played at an elite level that year, Peyton did too Maybe not in the supetbowl, Russ also was elite then
I think JJ McCarthy could do the trick without having to trade any assets, but we can't trade back for him hell there's a chance someone trades ahead of us with the Chargers for him in which case if Schoen likes him enough I bet he'd move up one spot to ensure we get him and the Chargers can still get a top guy so they'd rather just move down one spot I bet. Schoen is good at communication with other GMs, I don't think he is going to fuck this up. We are getting one of the top 4.
average length of Patrick Mahomes TD passes:
(measured in avg air yards/TD)
2019: 17.3
2020: 13.0
2021: 8.5
2022: 4.5
2023: 3.9
the last two years, Mahomes has thrown a total of two TDs which traveled 20+ yards in the air.
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WILD
average length of Patrick Mahomes TD passes:
(measured in avg air yards/TD)
2019: 17.3
2020: 13.0
2021: 8.5
2022: 4.5
2023: 3.9
the last two years, Mahomes has thrown a total of two TDs which traveled 20+ yards in the air.
Link - ( New Window )
His WRs are the worst in the league. It’s a shocking stats but not surprising. Also not having Hill makes a big difference.
When NFL coaching jobs are a revolving door you do things to give your team the best chance to win now. If the Giants didn’t like DJ there is no way they give him that contract. They had the security blanket in Taylor, could have easily let DJ go if they didn’t feel there was that big of a gap. But apparently they did feel there was a gap and they needed to sign DJ. We will never know if DJ would have gotten more or less on the open market but Schoen and Daboll felt there were no better options.
Yes DJ had a bad start to the season and so did a lot of players. We had a brutal schedule and were not prepared. But Schoen and Daboll could have let DJ go and saved a lot of money and they chose to keep him. They were not stuck with him.
When does this fucking end with this shit? 2030? He's getting paid handsomely & still people shill for him & point fingers elsewhere. He's not the answer. We need to move the fuck on.
When NFL coaching jobs are a revolving door you do things to give your team the best chance to win now. If the Giants didn’t like DJ there is no way they give him that contract. They had the security blanket in Taylor, could have easily let DJ go if they didn’t feel there was that big of a gap. But apparently they did feel there was a gap and they needed to sign DJ. We will never know if DJ would have gotten more or less on the open market but Schoen and Daboll felt there were no better options.
Yes DJ had a bad start to the season and so did a lot of players. We had a brutal schedule and were not prepared. But Schoen and Daboll could have let DJ go and saved a lot of money and they chose to keep him. They were not stuck with him.
Rudy, you're absolutely right but the DJHC will say that's incompetence by the Giant football people. Only the GMs and coaches on this board know what's really going on.
I was wary of Jones because of the Eagles game, but because they wanted Barkley who wouldn't sign the extension as offered in November they were limited in being able to keep both. And QBs come 1st. Like it or not Schoen/Daboll wanted to keep Barkley.
Yes I am absolutely for them drafting a new QB this year early - 1st or 2nd round. Enough is enough with Jones and his inability to make a read and get the ball out.
It's the inconsistency that I love the most.
The Eagles game is on the entire team.
The Vikings game, that's all Jones.
It's like convincing yourself that the sour milk in your fridge is a great outcome because it saves you a trip to go buy cottage cheese.
The flip side of the inconsistency is what I love most.
The Vikings game was "well their defense sucks, so no credit for Jones lighting it up", but the Eagles loss was completely on Jones (at least, the way some here tell it).
For the 100th time, they would have structured contracts differently, moved money around and been net positive in cap savings over the three years where Jones projects to have cap hits if cut.
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for about the 100th time they could not have tagged Jones to the tune of $32.8 mill and had money left for Okereke, A'Shawn, Nacho and the draft.
For the 100th time, they would have structured contracts differently, moved money around and been net positive in cap savings over the three years where Jones projects to have cap hits if cut.
No, there was nothing to move around. They were not doing LW again nor Jackson - they were the only ones with sufficient money to do anything and that was not happening.
The tag was off the table for Jones. We have done this exercise for over a year. We did it last spring. Yes they could have tagged Jones and basically kept the roster as it was.
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In comment 16406648 section125 said:
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for about the 100th time they could not have tagged Jones to the tune of $32.8 mill and had money left for Okereke, A'Shawn, Nacho and the draft.
For the 100th time, they would have structured contracts differently, moved money around and been net positive in cap savings over the three years where Jones projects to have cap hits if cut.
No, there was nothing to move around. They were not doing LW again nor Jackson - they were the only ones with sufficient money to do anything and that was not happening.
The tag was off the table for Jones. We have done this exercise for over a year. We did it last spring. Yes they could have tagged Jones and basically kept the roster as it was.
They could absolutely have made all those moves and kept Jones on the tag.
Two changes rebalances the cap for DJ on the tag instead: Golladay as a June 1 cut (instead of eating his entire balance in 2023), and don't sign Parris Campbell. Barkley would have a lower number if DJ was on the tag also, by definition (can't tag them both, so Barkley would have either been in y1 of a multi-year deal, or would have signed elsewhere as a FA).
And for the "they were not doing LW again," they DID do LW again to sweeten the pot in the trade. So that would have netted out the same also.
They 100% could have afforded the exact same moves with DJ on the tag, they would have just needed to handle the accounting differently (which would result in some Golladay dead money being on the cap this year instead of DJ's balloon year).
But they had ample salary to move into further years. I'm happy to sketch out the numbers in the morning.
When does this fucking end with this shit? 2030? He's getting paid handsomely & still people shill for him & point fingers elsewhere. He's not the answer. We need to move the fuck on.
SFG - if you honestly think that Jones had a chance at playing the QB position well based on how the line was playing early on in the season then you have no idea what you are watching. I’m sorry to dumb it down like that but that’s just the only way to describe it.
Year 2 he faced historic pressure that had basically never been seen before in the NFL and then tore his knee.
I’ll take my chances on year 3.
Some of you make no sense and want to fit your narrative. Jones was the priority and Barkley was 2nd fiddle. If they didn’t sign DJ they would have Franchised him and let Barkley hit FA. Taylor was the bridge QB.
At the end of last season they were high on Jones. That doesn’t mean they still have that opinion but that the reality. They didn’t pay him like a top 5 guy but they did pay him like a top 10. He may have gotten a little less in FA but he still would have been in that ballpark. But he had a handful of bad games against the best teams in the league when his best players were injured and then got hurt. He played against Dallas, SF, Seattle, Miami and Arizona. Two 12 win teams, one 11 win team and a 9 win team but that doesn’t matter to some. Oh and he had a higher completion % than both Taylor and DeVito despite not playing well.
Year 2 he faced historic pressure that had basically never been seen before in the NFL and then tore his knee.
I’ll take my chances on year 3.
The best football of his career is a very low bar
But they had ample salary to move into further years. I'm happy to sketch out the numbers in the morning.
Great. Let's see if we can squeeze 10s of millions of dollars off into the future on players that may of may not be part of the future.
I'll check back later to see how it is done. Please have the reason for and viability of the players restructured. And also remember, that whatever happened between the date of the tag and now would not have been known to Schoen.
Actually, please don't waste your time. It isn't worth it for a silly argument. If you believe it could have been done, fine by me. I just don't think moving money around would have been a reasonable option to Schoen or the Giants.
If we want to go full hindsight, letting Jones go would have been the best option.
Incorrect
Year 2 he faced historic pressure that had basically never been seen before in the NFL and then tore his knee.
I’ll take my chances on year 3.
You've been taking your chances on next year for about a decade now.
Everyone is in on the joke except for you.
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There's a big difference between could have would have.
But they had ample salary to move into further years. I'm happy to sketch out the numbers in the morning.
Great. Let's see if we can squeeze 10s of millions of dollars off into the future on players that may of may not be part of the future.
I'll check back later to see how it is done. Please have the reason for and viability of the players restructured. And also remember, that whatever happened between the date of the tag and now would not have been known to Schoen.
Actually, please don't waste your time. It isn't worth it for a silly argument. If you believe it could have been done, fine by me. I just don't think moving money around would have been a reasonable option to Schoen or the Giants.
If we want to go full hindsight, letting Jones go would have been the best option.
I already showed you how above with literally just two changes: Golladay as 6/1, don't sign Parris Campbell.
I know this is going to be a dick comment, but don't you think you might be punching above your weight on a cap discussion here?
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for about the 100th time they could not have tagged Jones to the tune of $32.8 mill and had money left for Okereke, A'Shawn, Nacho and the draft.
Incorrect
No, it is correct - realistically. You want to play games, manipulate money around in unrealistic ways, yeah, I suppose you could figure out away and set the team back down the road - playing Philly Eagles without the chance of a Super Bowl run.
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In comment 16406648 section125 said:
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for about the 100th time they could not have tagged Jones to the tune of $32.8 mill and had money left for Okereke, A'Shawn, Nacho and the draft.
Incorrect
No, it is correct - realistically. You want to play games, manipulate money around in unrealistic ways, yeah, I suppose you could figure out away and set the team back down the road - playing Philly Eagles without the chance of a Super Bowl run.
Just to be clear, that is what the cap and the contracts underneath it are...a manipulation of money across a series of years. You can call it realistic or unrealistic all you want but fitting in those several players deals and tagging Jones could have been done.
Whether it would have risked the future Super Bowl on the NY Giants horizon, I will leave that to your imagination.
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The excuse making for Jones is so tiresome...'We had a brutal schedule and were not prepared'...Jones had a rough start, but 'so did a lot of players'.
When does this fucking end with this shit? 2030? He's getting paid handsomely & still people shill for him & point fingers elsewhere. He's not the answer. We need to move the fuck on.
SFG - if you honestly think that Jones had a chance at playing the QB position well based on how the line was playing early on in the season then you have no idea what you are watching. I’m sorry to dumb it down like that but that’s just the only way to describe it.
FFS...he sucked. He was PATHETIC before he went down for good vs. LVR. I'm sick of the fucking leash this dude gets. It's so pathetic. And in the 'best season of his career', the man threw 15 fucking TDs. The bar is below the ground when it comes to Jones for some on here.
In the event Jones was franchised, Barkley would have not. So in this hypothetical
- Barkley signs a 3/39M with 21M guaranteed
- Jones is fracnhised
- The maximum amount of money is converted from salary to bonus on Jackson and Williams
Vs. what actually happened and assuming Jones is cut after this year.
A few things to note
- Williams was ultimately traded. The first table is what these players ultimately held in cap charges. The bottom is a snapshot of what the beginning of the year would have looked like, so that's why Williams has a larger cap charge.
- Jones did not meet his incentives, so the Giants will be credited about 2.7M to the 2024 cap, that's not represented in these numbers
So the bottomline is over a 3-year period the Giants would have had more cap room last year, and substantially more cap room over 3 years.
So the final cap charges would be 142.3 vs 120.
Meaning in this scenario the Giants sign Barkley to a long term agreement and still come out 22.3M in the black.
and to make up the difference they didnt need to restructure anyone. they could have just stopped signing free agents earlier. they would have still had enough for okereke. they may not have had enough for campbell or slayton or robinson or 2/3 and instead kept someone like richie james for another year cheap. or signed someone cheap from outside like isaiah mckenzie.
they would have curbed their spending with their lower priority moves, not their higher priority moves (okereke, waller).