He seems to be the consensus top OL in the draft,and will likely be there at 6.
Are you ok with the fact that he played LT,can a guy switch over to the right side and be as effective?
to make the same argument I made a couple of years ago. You don't draft a RT in the top 10.
What about Lane Johnson? That pick worked out very well for the Eagles.
Johnson was supposed to be their LT. Then they stuck lightning w Jason Peters who Buffalo let walk for some unfathomable reason
That's not the correct timeline. Peters was already with the Eagles for a couple of years at that point and they drafted Johnson as their RT.
Anyway, not saying we should pick Alt. But after all those years of having a miserable OL, I would not be mad if we picked the best OL on the board at #6. Even if that would mean moving Neal to guard.
the only way the Evan Neal selection would have ever made sense is if he became one of the best RTs in the game. Anything less than that, and it would have been a waste of an opportunity.
This isn't hindsight either. I argued against draft an OL in the first round of that draft.
I agree you don't pick RT in top 10.
The fact that he never played the right side gives me even more hesitancy
We also aren't sure if Neal is our guy and or if Neal can be switched to Guard.
All that said
Alt is a beast!!!
I'm going
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11:49 am : link : reply
to make the same argument I made a couple of years ago. You don't draft a RT in the top 10.
Ordinarily I might agree, but not after 10+ years of horrid OL play. IMO, you CANNOT have too many OTs. They're never BOTH healthy for a whole season. Draft an OT and let them figure out who slides inside until someone inevitably gets hurt. Then maybe it doesn't wreck the season.
I'd have no problem drafting an OT whatsoever. If they could trade down to around 10 to do it and acquire up more picks, so much the better.
Don't worry, it won't happen.
That said, I believe they'll take a blue chip WR at 6.
the only way the Evan Neal selection would have ever made sense is if he became one of the best RTs in the game. Anything less than that, and it would have been a waste of an opportunity.
This isn't hindsight either. I argued against draft an OL in the first round of that draft.
I feel like you can say that about most positions though. What matters is that the pick pans out and develops into a good player.
Again, not saying that Alt is the answer. But if the Giants think that he is worth a top 10 pick as a player and that they want to fix one of the absolute worst OL over the last decade, I won't be mad.
Ultimately (at least in my mind), when deciding whether it's worth to pick a certain position comes down to one question: how easy is it to find a quality player later in the draft or outside of the draft?
It's the reason why RBs don't get picked high anymore, because you can find your starter in the mid to late rounds. And with a shortage of quality OL in the league, it's not easy to find your starter in free agency either.
the giants should not make the mistake of overpaying guys like Solder in FA and neither should they draft a guy like Neal who might turn out to be a bad OT in the pros. Those were bad decisions that hurt the giants for years (although Neal might have a shot at turning the corner, possibly at guard).
I think the question of this thread should not be if RT is worth a top 10 pick, because I don't think you can make such a general statement. The question should be if Joe Alt can be a player of the caliber of Lane Johnson. Because if he is, i think he would be well worth the pick.
Clearly Schoen took Neal at 7 because he was likely a top 4-5 player on their board. If Neal went to the Panthers instead of Icky, Garrett Wilson is probably a Giant right now.
Alt is not my favorite choice but I wouldn’t say I’d argue with it. If they think he’s a star tackle and they think Neal is a left guard, like Stapleton said it solves 2 positions with 1 draft pick.
That being said, they think Neal is a tackle and will give him another year with the new OL coach to figure it out. So that likely makes picking Alt or Fashunu a moot point.
What if Neal is a bad guard and Alt isn’t a good RT?
Then you wasted a premium pick on another tackle, and likely passed up on signing a FA guard with a track record of good performance. Now you still have two holes.
Just saying you take the best player. RT is likely down on the list of the position they want to take, but the QBs and maybe as many as 2 receivers could be gone by the time they pick.
You weren't ok with us drafting Neal or any of the other 2 OL a few years ago?
That makes no sense..
I can understand giving Neal 1 more year to prove himself.
But if we find ourselves in the exact same position next season...we would go OL..
Right??
have been traumatized by the OL play. But RT is not a premium position.
In general, it's not a premium position, but if you can get All-Pro at any position, they are by my definition, a premium position player. This goes for guards, centers, safeties, tight ends, and running backs as well. In my opinion, that is, it's a discussion open to debate and open to the specifics of each team's strengths and weaknesses and the offensive and defensive systems they play. I think it's a mistake to look at it as black and white. Ultimately it comes down to the individual prospect and all the things he brings to the table for your team and its needs.
All that being said, I think the Giants have enough youth at OL and should be looking to free agency, not the top of the draft, to improve it. On top of that, from what I've read about Alt and Fashanu, neither is worthy of a top ten selection. Their scouting reports read like mid-first rounders at best. When it comes to the non-QB's, only Harrison Jr, Nabers, and Bowers are reading like top six picks to me, with Odunze and Verse knocking on the door. I'm not saying others like Latu, Turner, and Arnold aren't attractive prospects if the Giants were to trade down, but (based on all that I've read up until now) they come with concerns that make them unworthy of the 6th overall pick in my book.
If it's not a QB, I want Harrison Jr, Nabers, or Bowers--and not necessarily in that order. I have mixed feelings about using the 6th overall pick on a QB and would prefer they trade back into the middle or late first round for one.
You weren't ok with us drafting Neal or any of the other 2 OL a few years ago?
That makes no sense..
I can understand giving Neal 1 more year to prove himself.
But if we find ourselves in the exact same position next season...we would go OL..
Right??
I don't know how I can be more clear.
RT is not a premium position.
You don't use a #6 pick on a RT. Same as not using a #2 pick on a RB.
Beyond all of that, you guys do realize that if Evan Neal was in this draft, not knowing what we know now, he may be ranked ahead of Alt by some.
front office doesn't have to spend a top 10 pick on a RT.
If we are in a situation where Schoen and Daboll can't find a solution to RT without picking a second RT in the top 6, then we have the wrong guys running the team.
For every poster on this board who 2 years ago was totally happy with Neal and Tibs being picked. Now 2 years later so many of the same say picking Neal was a mistake. What a joke.
RE: RE: Taking the perceived best player at the spot
I’m sure he’ll be a very good LT, it’s nothing about the player.
The issue I have is you are drafting a guy that high to play him out of his natural position. That adds risk - as you are projecting he can make the transition. Not as easy as people make it seem.
The other issue I have - while both tackle positions are valuable, RT is still significantly less valuable based on top contracts for each position. So the positional value of Alt takes a hit if the giants pick him.
Finally, Neal was a high pick just 2 years ago. Very similar scenario. Coaching and injuries have held him back. I think he can still develop into a starting caliber player.
It is good to keep hoping for Neal to improve. New coach should help…can’t hurt. I listen to Sy though because he seems to know more than most fans here…he seems to think Neal has serious fundamental problems and has had them before drafted.
Like I said, it is good to hope and we do have a new coach……let us pray….
I 100% agree with you. You draft a QB, WR, LT, ER, CB, and maybe a DT in the top 10. These positions will command lots of money after 4 to 5 years. This is your core positional roster.
The problem with the Neal pick isn't that it was used on a prospect projected as a right tackle on the Giants, it's that he hasn't delivered on the expectations. If he played at a Pro Bowl level on the right side like they envisioned, we'd be loving it; but it's easier to forgive being wrong about a left tackle than it is about a right tackle.
the only OL I would draft in the top 10 would be a LT.
I also think that is pretty much conventional wisdom.
I think a case can be made that every OL position is now a premium spot. And that's because there is a scarcity with the position as the pipeline produces less and less quality.
So, if you can get grab a great prospect, especially one that is multiple, you should seriously consider it.
the only OL I would draft in the top 10 would be a LT.
I also think that is pretty much conventional wisdom.
I think a case can be made that every OL position is now a premium spot. And that's because there is a scarcity with the position as the pipeline produces less and less quality.
So, if you can get grab a great prospect, especially one that is multiple, you should seriously consider it.
Excellent point...
I am not even sold on drafting Alt,I personally prefer to trade back and get more picks....but Alt would be a great addition...especially if Neal can be moved to G
I’m sure he’ll be a very good LT, it’s nothing about the player.
The issue I have is you are drafting a guy that high to play him out of his natural position. That adds risk - as you are projecting he can make the transition. Not as easy as people make it seem.
The other issue I have - while both tackle positions are valuable, RT is still significantly less valuable based on top contracts for each position. So the positional value of Alt takes a hit if the giants pick him.
Finally, Neal was a high pick just 2 years ago. Very similar scenario. Coaching and injuries have held him back. I think he can still develop into a starting caliber player.
if you can get grab a great prospect, especially one that is multiple, you should seriously consider it.
Excellent point...
I am not even sold on drafting Alt,I personally prefer to trade back and get more picks....but Alt would be a great addition...especially if Neal can be moved to G
Except Alt isn't a great prospect, he's a good one. There will be better prospects available with the 6th overall pick.
Quote:
In comment 16406924 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
to make the same argument I made a couple of years ago. You don't draft a RT in the top 10.
What about Lane Johnson? That pick worked out very well for the Eagles.
Johnson was supposed to be their LT. Then they stuck lightning w Jason Peters who Buffalo let walk for some unfathomable reason
That's not the correct timeline. Peters was already with the Eagles for a couple of years at that point and they drafted Johnson as their RT.
Anyway, not saying we should pick Alt. But after all those years of having a miserable OL, I would not be mad if we picked the best OL on the board at #6. Even if that would mean moving Neal to guard.
Agree. At some point we need to be able to develop OL talent or sign FA wisely instead of spending high draft picks.
Quote:
to make the same argument I made a couple of years ago. You don't draft a RT in the top 10.
What about Lane Johnson? That pick worked out very well for the Eagles.
Don't care. You don't draft a RT in the top 10.
This isn't hindsight either. I argued against draft an OL in the first round of that draft.
The fact that he never played the right side gives me even more hesitancy
We also aren't sure if Neal is our guy and or if Neal can be switched to Guard.
All that said
Alt is a beast!!!
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11:49 am : link : reply
to make the same argument I made a couple of years ago. You don't draft a RT in the top 10.
Ordinarily I might agree, but not after 10+ years of horrid OL play. IMO, you CANNOT have too many OTs. They're never BOTH healthy for a whole season. Draft an OT and let them figure out who slides inside until someone inevitably gets hurt. Then maybe it doesn't wreck the season.
I'd have no problem drafting an OT whatsoever. If they could trade down to around 10 to do it and acquire up more picks, so much the better.
Don't worry, it won't happen.
That said, I believe they'll take a blue chip WR at 6.
This isn't hindsight either. I argued against draft an OL in the first round of that draft.
I feel like you can say that about most positions though. What matters is that the pick pans out and develops into a good player.
Again, not saying that Alt is the answer. But if the Giants think that he is worth a top 10 pick as a player and that they want to fix one of the absolute worst OL over the last decade, I won't be mad.
Ultimately (at least in my mind), when deciding whether it's worth to pick a certain position comes down to one question: how easy is it to find a quality player later in the draft or outside of the draft?
It's the reason why RBs don't get picked high anymore, because you can find your starter in the mid to late rounds. And with a shortage of quality OL in the league, it's not easy to find your starter in free agency either.
And doing it again would be stupid.
You don’t take a tackle 3 times in 5 years in the top 10
The same arguments you are making now were made two years ago with me. "We have to, we have to fix the OL."
It's the same shit you guys were arguing with me when I said the Nate Solder contract was a dumb idea.
Neal will be our RT. Or we will sign one in FA. Or we will draft one later in the draft. Drafting a RT at #6 is stupid.
There’s no reason to give up on him a use another premium resource on the oline.
I think the question of this thread should not be if RT is worth a top 10 pick, because I don't think you can make such a general statement. The question should be if Joe Alt can be a player of the caliber of Lane Johnson. Because if he is, i think he would be well worth the pick.
That being said, they think Neal is a tackle and will give him another year with the new OL coach to figure it out. So that likely makes picking Alt or Fashunu a moot point.
Then you wasted a premium pick on another tackle, and likely passed up on signing a FA guard with a track record of good performance. Now you still have two holes.
That makes no sense..
I can understand giving Neal 1 more year to prove himself.
But if we find ourselves in the exact same position next season...we would go OL..
Right??
All that being said, I think the Giants have enough youth at OL and should be looking to free agency, not the top of the draft, to improve it. On top of that, from what I've read about Alt and Fashanu, neither is worthy of a top ten selection. Their scouting reports read like mid-first rounders at best. When it comes to the non-QB's, only Harrison Jr, Nabers, and Bowers are reading like top six picks to me, with Odunze and Verse knocking on the door. I'm not saying others like Latu, Turner, and Arnold aren't attractive prospects if the Giants were to trade down, but (based on all that I've read up until now) they come with concerns that make them unworthy of the 6th overall pick in my book.
If it's not a QB, I want Harrison Jr, Nabers, or Bowers--and not necessarily in that order. I have mixed feelings about using the 6th overall pick on a QB and would prefer they trade back into the middle or late first round for one.
So your saying there's a chance....
The same arguments you are making now were made two years ago with me. "We have to, we have to fix the OL."
It's the same shit you guys were arguing with me when I said the Nate Solder contract was a dumb idea.
Neal will be our RT. Or we will sign one in FA. Or we will draft one later in the draft. Drafting a RT at #6 is stupid.
You were so right when you said this before we took Evan Neal instead of Garretr Wilson and you're still right.
And he ended up being a better pro than Darnold and Josh Rosen, and is one of the best weapons in football. Why was Barkley a bad draft pick again?
Quote:
Is what led the Giants to take Saqoun.
And he ended up being a better pro than Darnold and Josh Rosen, and is one of the best weapons in football. Why was Barkley a bad draft pick again?
I'm with you on Saquon...we was exactly what we needed at the time...
Folks just wanna hate
He was BPA at an area of severe need
That makes no sense..
I can understand giving Neal 1 more year to prove himself.
But if we find ourselves in the exact same position next season...we would go OL..
Right??
I don't know how I can be more clear.
RT is not a premium position.
You don't use a #6 pick on a RT. Same as not using a #2 pick on a RB.
Beyond all of that, you guys do realize that if Evan Neal was in this draft, not knowing what we know now, he may be ranked ahead of Alt by some.
If we are in a situation where Schoen and Daboll can't find a solution to RT without picking a second RT in the top 6, then we have the wrong guys running the team.
Beyond all of that, you guys do realize that if Evan Neal was in this draft, not knowing what we know now, he may be ranked ahead of Alt by some.
Would you draft a G in the top ten?
Quote:
Is what led the Giants to take Saqoun.
And he ended up being a better pro than Darnold and Josh Rosen, and is one of the best weapons in football. Why was Barkley a bad draft pick again?
He doesn’t stay healthy
Elite running backs don’t have the impact on winning like some other postions
What did the Giants gain from drafting Barkley?
And, certainly not two RTs in three years ffs.
Quote:
to make the same argument I made a couple of years ago. You don't draft a RT in the top 10.
And, certainly not two RTs in three years ffs.
... in the top 10.
I also think that is pretty much conventional wisdom.
The issue I have is you are drafting a guy that high to play him out of his natural position. That adds risk - as you are projecting he can make the transition. Not as easy as people make it seem.
The other issue I have - while both tackle positions are valuable, RT is still significantly less valuable based on top contracts for each position. So the positional value of Alt takes a hit if the giants pick him.
Finally, Neal was a high pick just 2 years ago. Very similar scenario. Coaching and injuries have held him back. I think he can still develop into a starting caliber player.
It is good to keep hoping for Neal to improve. New coach should help…can’t hurt. I listen to Sy though because he seems to know more than most fans here…he seems to think Neal has serious fundamental problems and has had them before drafted.
Like I said, it is good to hope and we do have a new coach……let us pray….
I also think that is pretty much conventional wisdom.
I think a case can be made that every OL position is now a premium spot. And that's because there is a scarcity with the position as the pipeline produces less and less quality.
So, if you can get grab a great prospect, especially one that is multiple, you should seriously consider it.
Quote:
the only OL I would draft in the top 10 would be a LT.
I also think that is pretty much conventional wisdom.
I think a case can be made that every OL position is now a premium spot. And that's because there is a scarcity with the position as the pipeline produces less and less quality.
So, if you can get grab a great prospect, especially one that is multiple, you should seriously consider it.
Excellent point...
I am not even sold on drafting Alt,I personally prefer to trade back and get more picks....but Alt would be a great addition...especially if Neal can be moved to G
About the 13th round...and he is cut badly
The issue I have is you are drafting a guy that high to play him out of his natural position. That adds risk - as you are projecting he can make the transition. Not as easy as people make it seem.
The other issue I have - while both tackle positions are valuable, RT is still significantly less valuable based on top contracts for each position. So the positional value of Alt takes a hit if the giants pick him.
Finally, Neal was a high pick just 2 years ago. Very similar scenario. Coaching and injuries have held him back. I think he can still develop into a starting caliber player.
I believe OL is still our #1 priority.
Quote:
I'm still not going to throw in the towel on Neal, but its getting late.
About the 13th round...and he is cut badly
Hardly. Besides, they only go 12 rounds now, IIRC.
Quote:
In comment 16407227 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I'm still not going to throw in the towel on Neal, but its getting late.
About the 13th round...and he is cut badly
Hardly. Besides, they only go 12 rounds now, IIRC.
im old skool
lol
if you can get grab a great prospect, especially one that is multiple, you should seriously consider it.
Excellent point...
I am not even sold on drafting Alt,I personally prefer to trade back and get more picks....but Alt would be a great addition...especially if Neal can be moved to G
Quote:
Is what led the Giants to take Saqoun.
And he ended up being a better pro than Darnold and Josh Rosen, and is one of the best weapons in football. Why was Barkley a bad draft pick again?
Are you serious? Barkley has been at the center of an atrocious offense for half a decade. The pick did nothing for the team.