They asked him to put a percentage on the Giants taking a first round QB, he put it high, just above 75%.
He said Jones is tracking to be ready for week 1 and could be leaving the seat warm for the drafted QB.
It's lying season. Going to be a lot of noise the next 8 weeks.
Link - (
New Window )
Quote:
until a deal is announced. They're going to pick a WR or OT and ride with giving Daniel more help.
Do you really think that? I don't know Jon, I'm reading it the complete opposite to be honest.
if mike g feels confident enough to predict they are doing it then there's no way it's not plan A (not that plan A always happens).
this board has a lot of dog catching the car right now. some have chased for so long they should find any other non-jones qb while concocting all manner of reasons why they didnt but now that it's being credibly reported as possible (and makes obvious sense given the draft) they seemingly wont believe it until they see it.
its not an unfair approach because nothing is ever guaranteed in draft but clearly they are correctly very much in the qb market.
Quote:
until a deal is announced. They're going to pick a WR or OT and ride with giving Daniel more help.
Do you really think that? I don't know Jon, I'm reading it the complete opposite to be honest.
To this point, they've done little to deviate from past big decisions, and Jones is the biggest.
After $140M and six games, I don't see a pivot unless ownership is on board. I hope they can leverage the injuries to induce change, but until it's actually done ...
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
I believe the report they will investigate/attempt to move up, I just don’t see it happening with the QB needs of the teams above us.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
Barkley was tagged last year instead of traded, so I don't know that I share your view that he was tough on Barkley.
In a nutshell, he hasn't moved on from either player so I am not sure why he would get "credit" for doing tough things he immediately undid.
Barkley was tagged last year instead of traded, so I don't know that I share your view that he was tough on Barkley.
In a nutshell, he hasn't moved on from either player so I am not sure why he would get "credit" for doing tough things he immediately undid.
he hasnt moved on from either player because at those times he didnt have good alternatives and the 2 of them carried the offense to it's best year since obj. yes it was still middle of the pack but middle of the pack at best but thats better than back of the pack.
its a lot easier to blast players to siberia when you arent the one responsible for finding their replacements.
Quote:
absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
Quote:
In comment 16410404 JonC said:
Quote:
absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Quote:
He gets credit for decisions he didn't immediately walk back. Yes he declined the 5th year option on Jones. Then he signed him to a contract that paid him much more than the 5th year option was worth.
Barkley was tagged last year instead of traded, so I don't know that I share your view that he was tough on Barkley.
In a nutshell, he hasn't moved on from either player so I am not sure why he would get "credit" for doing tough things he immediately undid.
he hasnt moved on from either player because at those times he didnt have good alternatives and the 2 of them carried the offense to it's best year since obj. yes it was still middle of the pack but middle of the pack at best but thats better than back of the pack.
its a lot easier to blast players to siberia when you arent the one responsible for finding their replacements.
There were numerous good alternatives to paying Jones $82M in guaranteed money. They already had a plan in place with a better player in Tyrod Taylor as the bridge to the 2023 and 2024 drafts. And before you cite Taylor's health, I'll remind you Jones played 6 games in 2023.
Taylor/cheap vet FA or draft pick/DeVito - completely realistic QB room that would have been better than 2023, cheaper than 2023, and wouldn't have had negative impacts after 2023. The only catch is it would have been a tough sell for the mouth breathers.
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
You need to look at this differently.
Yes, Schoen made a mistake. But it was the "right mistake" because he had no other options. If they could give out internal awards at 1925 GW, Schoen would get the "He Did the Best He Could Award"...
Quote:
In comment 16410444 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16410404 JonC said:
Quote:
absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
Quote:
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
You need to look at this differently.
Yes, Schoen made a mistake. But it was the "right mistake" because he had no other options. If they could give out internal awards at 1925 GW, Schoen would get the "He Did the Best He Could Award"...
Yep, and you would think they'd learn something from the bad decisions made on Solder, Golladay, but no.
Quote:
absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
Imaginary curve, right.
Schoen wasted a good 5 year option decision by giving out a silly 4 year contract with an injury clause to boot. And Barkley was still overpaid last year and should have been traded.
Imagine that.
Anyone who isn't realistic how tough that situation is to manage for a young, first time GM is being unfair imo.
Now Adam Peters? That is a million times easier. He's got no canaries in the coal mine. A true clean slate.
I just find your stance to be especially harsh on Schoen given you openly state Mara mandated Eli on Gettleman.
Again, Schoen mishandled it, but let's not ignore the factors he dealt with.
Quote:
In comment 16410489 JonC said:
Quote:
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
You need to look at this differently.
Yes, Schoen made a mistake. But it was the "right mistake" because he had no other options. If they could give out internal awards at 1925 GW, Schoen would get the "He Did the Best He Could Award"...
Yep, and you would think they'd learn something from the bad decisions made on Solder, Golladay, but no.
They must be following the BBI popular majority.
Anyone who isn't realistic how tough that situation is to manage for a young, first time GM is being unfair imo.
Now Adam Peters? That is a million times easier. He's got no canaries in the coal mine. A true clean slate.
I just find your stance to be especially harsh on Schoen given you openly state Mara mandated Eli on Gettleman.
Again, Schoen mishandled it, but let's not ignore the factors he dealt with.
Imagine being that influenced by Jones and Barkley, two absolute non-entities in Giants history. The plan these last five years had been little more than trying to wish these two into relevance. I can't wait until they're gone if for nothing else than maybe ownership will start to see things a little more clearly.
A blame Schoen because I contend Schoen believed that re-investing in Jones was a smart move. It was his call.
I get your point about a first time GM trying to manage ownership. But what if that wasn't a problem because Schoen - again - actually believed in Jones? So, there wouldn't be any friction.
And that's where we diverge. You contend that Mara may have leaned on Schoen. So, you give Schoen some leeway in this. You may be right.
But I have read and heard enough to believe Mara actually gave Schoen the decision-making process we wanted.
Quote:
In comment 16410489 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 16410444 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16410404 JonC said:
Quote:
absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
You didn’t answer the question other than to say you’d be doing the same thing Mike g is reporting they are trying to do now. Who was your qb in 2023?
I wanted the NEFT but the Jones contract was to compete for at least the next two years. Then most things that could have gone wrong did to start the season so it looks worse.
The most important factor is winning games. This keeps the HC around. Schoen has a little more rope imv. I can see it going several different ways. From a trade up to sticking at 6. Even a aggressive trade back wouldn't surprise me. I think a QB will be drafted somewhere.
Quote:
In comment 16410501 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16410489 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 16410444 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 16410404 JonC said:
Quote:
absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
You didn’t answer the question other than to say you’d be doing the same thing Mike g is reporting they are trying to do now. Who was your qb in 2023?
You asked "right now" and I answered.
In 2023, I would've allowed Jones to test the market, stuck with the plan of Tyrod and another veteran or draft pick or Jones on the FT. The absolute last thing I would've entertained was what NYG did.
I had no false illusions over the playoff win, the loss mattered much more. Fast forward ...
I'm done with your questions.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
You didn’t answer the question other than to say you’d be doing the same thing Mike g is reporting they are trying to do now. Who was your qb in 2023?
You asked "right now" and I answered.
In 2023, I would've allowed Jones to test the market, stuck with the plan of Tyrod and another veteran or draft pick or Jones on the FT. The absolute last thing I would've entertained was what NYG did.
I had no false illusions over the playoff win, the loss mattered much more. Fast forward ...
I'm done with your questions.
sorry if it was unclear when i said "starting from the day schoen took over" i meant who would the starting QB have been through right now, not who they hope to draft in 2 months.
either way you answered the question, tyrod, some other non-difference making vet, or jones on FT, and picking a qb in this year's draft. so same things they chose, they just gave jones 1 extra guaranteed year and lowered the cap hit in 2023.
Some want to hang on to Jones for dear life, some want to keep him until the right QB is acquired, I just wanted to move away from Jones and allow the franchise to properly bottom out, finally.
Some want to hang on to Jones for dear life, some want to keep him until the right QB is acquired, I just wanted to move away from Jones and allow the franchise to properly bottom out, finally.
it's not influencing who they are meeting with at the combine.
it's not influencing them away from talking to the teams at 1, 2, 3 about trade ups.
beyond his reporting about what they're already doing it's not influencing mike g reporting that they are trying to take a qb.
it does provide them a back up plan if they cant get the guy they want, which could happen regardless of any effort they make. if they only have 3 guys who make the grade the teams 1-3 could decide to take them and not trade out. that's not in their control. or worse if they only have 2 guys, but i think they will at least like 3 of the 4.
ok, so if you'll indulge me re-asking my prior question but hopefully clearer this time - starting from january 2022 when the new regime took over, who was under center starting 2022 and 2023?
pick from anyone who was available to them in those drafts or free agent classes.
Quote:
In comment 16410084 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
trade up to 3 and take the guy available move. If your gonna move get to 1 and really have your pick.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
I do too. I'm fine doing it when you're on the clock, but taking the leftovers rubs me the wrong way.
was stroud leftovers last year? by the time the draft rolls around it may be that bryce was a more consensus qb1 than caleb. as prospects id probably still take bryce over this years class but im a big bryce believer.
That isn't what I'm talking about: I don't want to trade up to three content with whoever lands. I want real conviction in a guy if we are moving serious assets.
A trade up to whatever pick they get to means they like the options there. I wouldn’t bother trying to view it any other way.
A trade up to whatever pick they get to means they like the options there. I wouldn’t bother trying to view it any other way.
Sure, it's communicating they like three guys. Jets did that when they got Darnold, Niners with Lance.
It's a fair point on the deal might not be available on draft day.
"tear it down, build from scratch" sounds great, except when the best prospect in that year's draft is kenny pickett. in 2022 they had no good alternative and jones was only a year older than pickett anyway, already on the final year of his rookie deal since they declined the 5yo.
in 2023 you may not have retained jones at the same contract they chose to but you did say you may have tagged him. very few teams are letting their 26 year old starting qb walk without having a better alternative than tyrod, who extended his streak to 5 years straight ending up injured within a month of starting.
as things turned out it was a difference without a distinction any way since jones got hurt and they got themselves a pick right in the thick of this year's QB class.
was stroud leftovers last year? by the time the draft rolls around it may be that bryce was a more consensus qb1 than caleb. as prospects id probably still take bryce over this years class but im a big bryce believer.
That isn't what I'm talking about: I don't want to trade up to three content with whoever lands. I want real conviction in a guy if we are moving serious assets.
i agree - this was my reply to Dan's comment directly which is more clear than the my reply to you was:
In comment 16410086 Eric on Li said:
was buffalo wrong to move up to pick #7 for qb3?
of course they will try to move up for whoever they like best but if chicago decides caleb is it there is no trade they will accept. same with washington and whoever they like best.
it's not impossible that more than 1 guy makes the grade or that different teams grade players differently. nobody will know until picks start getting made.
the point about possibly needing to make the trade now because that's when the market moves is a good one. i dont know what id do because it's a leap of faith unless you have at least 3 QBs you feel really good about.
if you have 2 qbs you love, do you trade to 3 now and hope you get lucky? tough call. you can always trade back down at the draft to try to recover as much as you can because even you only liked 2 qbs, maybe someone else liked 3 (or a different 2)? If MHJ is the worst case scenario that's not awful either.
It was a really bad miscalculation by Schoen. Imagine being able to walk away free and clear of Jones this offseason with another 40 million in cap room?
2023 could have been any combination of:
1. Taylor
2. Dalton/Brissett/Keenum/Mariota
3. DeVito/Levis/Hooker/Haener/O'Connell/Tune/DTR
That approach gives the Giants both veteran coverage at the position and the opportunity to develop a young draft prospect. How aggressive they would have been in the draft is unknown because we don't know how they rated Levis, Hooker, etc. But nothing in that 2023 approach need prevent them from being involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
The only hangup to that approach is the attachment to Jones. But it needed to be accepted that the attachment was deferred the day they didn't pick up the fifth year option. Alas, they reversed themselves and now they have both the massive 2024 Jones cap hit AND possible reason not to be involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
DJ was the best option coming off the road playoff win, and they signed him to a mid-level starter deal with an escape hatch. They are free to bring in a better QB if they can.
DJ was the best option coming off the road playoff win, and they signed him to a mid-level starter deal with an escape hatch. They are free to bring in a better QB if they can.
They were not coming off a road playoff win. They were coming off a 38-7 road playoff defeat to a division rival.
That said, I would move up in 2024. I would PREFER a QB that can create on his own. Think, off schedule. There are 3 QBs I would draft because of Jones injuries and the ability to upgrade the most important position on the team.
We drafted the QB high in the first round and he won a playoff game.
Of course we signed him, it wasn't crippling. We are ALL talking about the possibility of the Giants trading up, including a trusted reporter. So clearly, we are not STUCK with Jones. We could draft one this year and have enough cap to add some talent.
2023 could have been any combination of:
1. Taylor
2. Dalton/Brissett/Keenum/Mariota
3. DeVito/Levis/Hooker/Haener/O'Connell/Tune/DTR
That approach gives the Giants both veteran coverage at the position and the opportunity to develop a young draft prospect. How aggressive they would have been in the draft is unknown because we don't know how they rated Levis, Hooker, etc. But nothing in that 2023 approach need prevent them from being involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
The only hangup to that approach is the attachment to Jones. But it needed to be accepted that the attachment was deferred the day they didn't pick up the fifth year option. Alas, they reversed themselves and now they have both the massive 2024 Jones cap hit AND possible reason not to be involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
"attachment" wasnt the only hang up. by any tangible metric jones was a lot better in 2022 than the guys you mentioned on top of being almost a decade younger.
in 2022 tyrod got carted off in the preseason and made it what 1 series against chicago early in the year 2022? That has been the story with him since 2018 and why in 2022 nobody signed him as a free agent to be a starting QB.
lets also not pretend this is a decision only the giants make. Seahawks didnt do it with Geno, they paid him. Bucs seem like they arent going to do it with Baker. 49ers didnt do it with Jimmy G even after they'd traded 3 firsts for Lance. in fact the only teams i can think of who have used that kind of backup/mid round pick strategy with QBs are teams whose coaches just got fired (atlanta w/ your guy mariota, washington).
sean payton seems to irrationally hate russ even though i thought he kept that team afloat this year so it will be interesting to see what happens. he may do it, but if he does it before the draft i think it's a big risk that could blow up in his face bc then he's scrambling to find a starting qb.
the only reason that isnt the smarter move is if you are worried he literally may not be able to make it through the game. as he wasnt against chicago and as he almost wasnt against miami this year.
I get that, and Odunze looks great. I just wonder how second-tier JJM is. I just looked at a bunch of mocks by pros that have him going either at 8 or 12. Not sure I see such a big difference between 6 and 8 or 12.
The most logical scenario is the Giants go with either Odunze or Nabers in the first round and take a QB with their first pick in the second round (Nix, Penix or even Rattler). They then spend their next pick in the second round on an offensive lineman who can play tackle or guard (Barton?).
They just need someone who can put some pressure on Jones now and potentially be the starter in a year.
It was a really bad miscalculation by Schoen. Imagine being able to walk away free and clear of Jones this offseason with another 40 million in cap room?
A tag eliminates Bobby Okereke and his signing and possibly another like A'Shawn.
Too many nay-sayers in regards to JJ and it's all because the Michigan offense was a run first approach and had a less than stellar line for a heavy pass game. Shit happens. It doesn't define what kind of player or what he's truly capable of. A 20 year old kid played fantastic in big moments. That's an intangible that can't be taught.
I feel like he is going top 10, if not 5-6 depending if the Chargers trade out.