They asked him to put a percentage on the Giants taking a first round QB, he put it high, just above 75%.
He said Jones is tracking to be ready for week 1 and could be leaving the seat warm for the drafted QB.
It's lying season. Going to be a lot of noise the next 8 weeks.
Link - (
New Window )
And even if the pick fails, it will be worth the stretch.
??
??
Where are they going to play the new 2nd round OT in your scenario, Rich?
Sorry if I missed it but who is your preference in a trade up scenario in a perfect world?
If we select a QB on April 25th and he gets tackled on stage while hugging Goodell, I am 100% sure it will be Eightshamrocks.
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Eightshamrocks is going to be so pissed.
If we select a QB on April 25th and he gets tackled on stage while hugging Goodell, I am 100% sure it will be Eightshamrocks.
Just make sure Tonya Harding is not invited to the draft
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.
Sorry if I missed it but who is your preference in a trade up scenario in a perfect world?
Just check his rankings. He loves Daniels and is high on McCarthy over Maye.
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Eightshamrocks is going to be so pissed.
If we select a QB on April 25th and he gets tackled on stage while hugging Goodell, I am 100% sure it will be Eightshamrocks.
If the Giants take a QB in the first round, I'll be shocked (and disappointed, to be honest) if we don't get a jtgiants-level meltdown from the most zealous DJ enthusiasts.
Sy, you posted today that you believe they won’t go QB round 1. This report is contradictory, do you still feel they go elsewhere round 1?
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In comment 16409676 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Eightshamrocks is going to be so pissed.
If we select a QB on April 25th and he gets tackled on stage while hugging Goodell, I am 100% sure it will be Eightshamrocks.
If the Giants take a QB in the first round, I'll be shocked (and disappointed, to be honest) if we don't get a jtgiants-level meltdown from the most zealous DJ enthusiasts.
My word, that was quite epic. I'm going to have to do some archive digging to find it.
Most teams picking at the top of the draft need those things.
McCarthy, Daniels (or Maye, longshot) either at 6, or slight trade up between picks 3-6.
Trade into back end of 1st round for Nix/Penix.
Penix in the 2nd.
I would be ok if the position is addressed in any of these ways, as I think each would be a serious enough of an investment to really push Jones out sooner than later.
My ideal scenario is Maye, Daniels or McCarthy at 6 in that order and without any trade.
"My expectation is that Jones is the starting QB." We've seen that phrase is bullshit with this regime.
I'm surprised at the number of people willing to give up multiple day and day two picks for several years to move up Williams, Maye, or Daniels. Most of these massive move ups for QBs fail. The people who want to do so are as certain as the DJ supporters that they are correct. I also remember last year that Colin was berating anyone who suggested that the Giants were definitely going to give up a ton of draft capital to move up for Njigba, Johnson, Flowers, or Addison.
Of course I could be wrong, but there is nothing I am more confident in, than Schoen and Daboll, whose seats will be warm with a poor season next year, hitching their wagon to a QB with 3 injury ending seasons to his knee and shoulder, to replace our current QB that is coming off a torn ACL and a history of neck issues.
I'm surprised at the number of people willing to give up multiple day and day two picks for several years to move up Williams, Maye, or Daniels. Most of these massive move ups for QBs fail. The people who want to do so are as certain as the DJ supporters that they are correct. I also remember last year that Colin was berating anyone who suggested that the Giants were definitely going to give up a ton of draft capital to move up for Njigba, Johnson, Flowers, or Addison.
"weren't definitely going to give up"
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They need a #1 WR and another OT. They will take WR, QB (Penix) and OT in that order with the 1,2,2 picks.
Of course I could be wrong, but there is nothing I am more confident in, than Schoen and Daboll, whose seats will be warm with a poor season next year, hitching their wagon to a QB with 3 injury ending seasons to his knee and shoulder, to replace our current QB that is coming off a torn ACL and a history of neck issues.
***NOT*** hitching their wagon
Give Caleb a WR with some size to go with the speed (Hyatt/Slayton) & shiftiness (Wan'Dale) that we already have.
Fact check, aisle 4, please!
Give Caleb a WR with some size to go with the speed (Hyatt/Slayton) & shiftiness (Wan'Dale) that we already have.
If they move on from Jones next offseason, they'll be able to fill some spots even if they don't have a #1/#2 in 2025.
Schoen & Daboll want a QB, but ownership feels the issues were OL and development on the OL. The only way ownership will approve a QB early is if the OL is fixed otherwise they'll view QB as a wasted pick.
I hope it isn't true because that would be troublesome.
Hyperbole. You're smart enough to know how they structured the deal. They're out after 2024 relatively unscathed. It was a hedged bet that lost but still...hedged.
Schoen & Daboll want a QB, but ownership feels the issues were OL and development on the OL. The only way ownership will approve a QB early is if the OL is fixed otherwise they'll view QB as a wasted pick.
I hope it isn't true because that would be troublesome.
Don't buy it. They've already made a big OL coach change, are sending smoke they're going to go big on a G at least (maybe even swing tackle backup).
Given the Jones contract went to the very last hour and was structured uniquely first two years frontloaded - I can't buy the meat on that speculation.
True but those are after the facts examples. In fact Mahomes and Allen were not the top choices at their positions in their drafts.
I think the best answer is this, if you feel you have a potential guy to be a Mahomes or an Allen then you make efforts to get them.
The absolute best scenario for us would be:
We get a QB (whichever one is not important at the moment) and we see Jones rehab nicely and he begins the season as the starter. With that he looks ok to pretty decent early on and some teams elsewhere have QB injuries.. We trade Jones before the deadline and move our rookie into the starting position for the rest of the season.
That would be best case scenario.
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Until proven otherwise this is the regime that gave Jones 4/$160M.
Hyperbole. You're smart enough to know how they structured the deal. They're out after 2024 relatively unscathed. It was a hedged bet that lost but still...hedged.
They hedged, but the possibility that he's the QB all four years of the deal is still real. They hedged, but they want to be right.
And that's if Schoen and Daboll are the ones making the call. Look above to Sean's post. We know who's actually making the call.
Schoen & Daboll want a QB, but ownership feels the issues were OL and development on the OL. The only way ownership will approve a QB early is if the OL is fixed otherwise they'll view QB as a wasted pick.
I hope it isn't true because that would be troublesome.
I dunno if I believe that. Schoen basically said Jones was going nowhere in his 2022 exit meeting, like a few days after the Eagles game.
If we step back from the Jones situation for one moment, maybe people can realize that while the 2022 season wasn't some epic year, nor was the Minnesota game the greatest game of all time, it was a very good year by Jones given what he was asked to do, and his performance in a road playoff game was very promising.
It's easy to blast the Jones contract in hindsight, but as others have mentioned, it was very measured considering what true franchise QBs make. There were a lot of QB vacancies last year and I think NYG obviously didn't want Jones to get that one offer he needed to leave, possibly even to the Jets.
Hindsight is always 20/20 but I understood the way Schoen tried to play it, which was kind of right down the middle. Jones has never been quite as bad as his harshest BBI critics nor as good as some have made him out to be.
And I'll state for the record as I'm sure my post will rile some people up, he's not the QB for this team. He's not good enough nor dependable enough and I no longer see him as a viable option.
No matter what anyone thinks of Jones, this close to the top of a strong quarterback draft requires a GM to strongly consider moves.
Agreed. Wrote this in a few threads.
Now someone’s opinion on the QB is one thing..but if the giants view one of these QBs as “the guy” there is NO realistic trade package that is too step.
As devils advocate, maybe that guy exists at 6? Idk , but i trust the front office to be objective.
Do you ever stop. You legit disappeared for the entire 2022 season. You come back after jones plays poorly behind a makeshift horseshit offensive line in 2023 vs very good teams. Glad to have you back!
x1000
We don't need a player "touched by the hand of God", we need our owners and front office shook by the tight grip of God's hands around their necks to wake up and do the right thing.
Mahomes went #11 and Reid had him sit for a year. But moving up from #6? That's as clear as day that Jones is a gonner.
Schoen may possibly not be overenamoured with the top ranked QB's in this draft and be aware of what I've just stated.
Just possible he is enamoured with a lesser known QB and sees real potential with them.
I really struggle with the idea that Daboll is excited by Jones's quarterback play. Schoen has over all impressed me as our GM, despite what some on here believe, but if they stick with Jones, then I will be really baffled by that.
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In comment 16409731 Go Terps said:
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And that's if Schoen and Daboll are the ones making the call. Look above to Sean's post. We know who's actually making the call.
So you are referring to a no name reporter or blogger on something that maybe 5 people would know about as fact. I do not believe it as the truth. It likely is bad speculation, click bait post.
I don't disagree that they need to draft a QB this year, if not as replacement for Jones but at least as competition. But for you to come across as believing, as gospel, what was in sean's post is strange given your desire for accurate reporting.
Mahomes went #11 and Reid had him sit for a year. But moving up from #6? That's as clear as day that Jones is a gonner.
Schoen may possibly not be overenamoured with the top ranked QB's in this draft and be aware of what I've just stated.
Just possible he is enamoured with a lesser known QB and sees real potential with them.
I really struggle with the idea that Daboll is excited by Jones's quarterback play. Schoen has over all impressed me as our GM, despite what some on here believe, but if they stick with Jones, then I will be really baffled by that.
Correct, I can make the case for what they've done so far, even though it has backfired. However, this offseason that will change if they don't pull the emergency exit. Jones's injuries this year have given them the opportunity to do so.
We better not make the mistake again of spending money and cap space on Barkley who is one of the MOST overrated players in the NFL. It isn't an insult, not saying he sucks but his perceived value is far greater than his play value return is...
Schoen & Daboll want a QB, but ownership feels the issues were OL and development on the OL. The only way ownership will approve a QB early is if the OL is fixed otherwise they'll view QB as a wasted pick.
I hope it isn't true because that would be troublesome.
I could see it. Basically Jones is here for a while. I think John has him in his will.
That's why I don't understand the people that don't want us to trade up. We don't even have to look at other teams. Just look at our previous starting QB. No one gives a shit what we gave up and they wouldn't care even if we gave up double the original trade.
Sure the QB could end up being a bust. So could the players you draft with the picks you didn't trade.
Here are our 2 most recent 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Pretend we've never seen any of them play in the NFL. Just going off of them as draft prospects. Would you trade these guys for the #1 pick? This is similar to what you'd be trading for a QB. I know my answer.
Evan Neal, Deonte Banks, Wan'Dale, JMS, Jalin Hyatt & Josh Ezeudu.
It can mean trading up from the second round to the 32nd pick, or moving up to 1.
The most important part is either way it signals Daniel Jones is finally done here.
Giants sending smoke signals to the league, hopefully.
Evan Neal, Deonte Banks, Wan'Dale, JMS, Jalin Hyatt & Josh Ezeudu.
I would trade all of those players to the Bears tomorrow to move up to #1 and select a QB I believe can be special. I think most would.
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This is similar to what you'd be trading for a QB. I know my answer.
Evan Neal, Deonte Banks, Wan'Dale, JMS, Jalin Hyatt & Josh Ezeudu.
I would trade all of those players to the Bears tomorrow to move up to #1 and select a QB I believe can be special. I think most would.
Essentially that's what you're trading. Maybe not those exact players, but it's most likely going to be similar. Even if you replaced Evan Neal & JMS with a more successful 1st & 2nd round pick. Say Andrew Thomas & Xavier McKinney. Is that not a trade you'd still make? I know I'd make that trade in about half a second.
Whomever they have graded highest, they should do what it takes to get him.
They also need another CB, DE, RB and probably S. And if they don't get it through a FA, definitely an OG. Oh, and depth at DL.
Yup.
Falcons/RaIders/Saints/Vikings perhaps. Also Denver. They don't have much draft capital, but they have some players maybe.
it's always possible but the good news is only a few teams have a pick as high as nyg to move up from.
if the teams 1-2 decide to go QB they arent trading down so draft starts at #3. pats are the pivot team, and the nyg having pick #6 makes them an appealing dance partner since LAC aren't moving up from 5 and AZ probably also not moving up from 4.
it all comes down to the grade on QB2/QB3/QB4 on the NYG board and what NE decides to do.
Too bad. He’s probably gonna be a redskin
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They need a #1 WR and another OT. They will take WR, QB (Penix) and OT in that order with the 1,2,2 picks.
Of course I could be wrong, but there is nothing I am more confident in, than Schoen and Daboll, whose seats will be warm with a poor season next year, hitching their wagon to a QB with 3 injury ending seasons to his knee and shoulder, to replace our current QB that is coming off a torn ACL and a history of neck issues.
Penix will be a stop gap to Arch Manning
It's so adorable when you put down your spreadsheets and wave your DJ pompoms instead.
Brandon Beane said exactly this today.
Link - ( New Window )
Counterpoint: the Giants had an insane amount of draft capital in 2022 and didn't end up with much out of it other than Wan'dale, Thibs, and a lot of bad-to-maybe ok bodies. If anything, Schoen may have gotten too cute with all those picks reaching for certain guys in the mid-rounds (have no idea why he did that instead of just going BPA).
They can't play with one year. They need to look for the future both for economics and player personnel. Jones and his 2024 year will be his last, be it completely or at the very least on that deal. They can get out of it and will if given a prime opportunity - which they will.
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the new regime didnt really decline his 5yo, they just wanted to pay him more sooner i thought?
It's so adorable when you put down your spreadsheets and wave your DJ pompoms instead.
weird interpretation of DJ pom poms but exceedingly more typical sideswipe without a point from a guy getting closer and closer to mirroring one of googs alter egos every day.
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Is there is no price to steep for a franchise changing QB. What is CJ Stroud worth to the Texans now? Think they think he’d be worth 2 or 3 1sts? How about Patrick Mahomes? Josh Allen? THE guy is worth everything.
Brandon Beane said exactly this today. Link - ( New Window )
Probably the one guy who would never say shit for clicks. Guy is probably the only one with connections to Giants
Schoen & Daboll want a QB, but ownership feels the issues were OL and development on the OL. The only way ownership will approve a QB early is if the OL is fixed otherwise they'll view QB as a wasted pick.
I hope it isn't true because that would be troublesome.
This may be true but he still has that chronic neck injury which could end his career at any time
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This guy can be full of shit, but he's saying Schoen & Daboll wanted to let Jones test the market after the 2022 season, but ownership said no, he's our guy and get it done.
Schoen & Daboll want a QB, but ownership feels the issues were OL and development on the OL. The only way ownership will approve a QB early is if the OL is fixed otherwise they'll view QB as a wasted pick.
I hope it isn't true because that would be troublesome.
This may be true but he still has that chronic neck injury which could end his career at any time
How is it chronic if it was 2 different injuries?
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that teams are going to jump in front of the Giants and snag the QB they wanted.
Yup.
Falcons/RaIders/Saints/Vikings perhaps. Also Denver. They don't have much draft capital, but they have some players maybe.
Luckily for the Giants they have a much better draft pick than any of those teams. Highly unlikely the Bears/Pats would be willing to move outside of the top 10.
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In comment 16409826 Eric on Li said:
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the new regime didnt really decline his 5yo, they just wanted to pay him more sooner i thought?
It's so adorable when you put down your spreadsheets and wave your DJ pompoms instead.
weird interpretation of DJ pom poms but exceedingly more typical sideswipe without a point from a guy getting closer and closer to mirroring one of googs alter egos every day.
If one guy sideswipes without a point and the other guy writes five pages of circular logic, what's the difference besides a shift key?
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Is there is no price to steep for a franchise changing QB. What is CJ Stroud worth to the Texans now? Think they think he’d be worth 2 or 3 1sts? How about Patrick Mahomes? Josh Allen? THE guy is worth everything.
That's why I don't understand the people that don't want us to trade up. We don't even have to look at other teams. Just look at our previous starting QB. No one gives a shit what we gave up and they wouldn't care even if we gave up double the original trade.
Sure the QB could end up being a bust. So could the players you draft with the picks you didn't trade.
Here are our 2 most recent 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Pretend we've never seen any of them play in the NFL. Just going off of them as draft prospects. Would you trade these guys for the #1 pick? This is similar to what you'd be trading for a QB. I know my answer.
Evan Neal, Deonte Banks, Wan'Dale, JMS, Jalin Hyatt & Josh Ezeudu.
Your analysis assumes that you are certain that trading up will net the next Patrick Holmes, Josh Allen, or Lamar Jackson. (And Baltimore actually passed on drafting Jackson twice.)
As this article notes, most trade ups for QBs fail.
Link - ( New Window )
I can already see the jtgiants meltdown forming on the horizon.
This is going to be so satisfying if/when it comes to fruition.
I'd assume if the Giants are going to trade up to 1 it's for Caleb Williams.
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Only way this makes sense is if they have a certain guy in mind. My guess is Maye.
Too bad. He’s probably gonna be a redskin
I'm not so sure about that. A lot of people over the last couple days are connecting the Redskins to Jayden Daniels.
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In comment 16409748 GoDeep13 said:
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Is there is no price to steep for a franchise changing QB. What is CJ Stroud worth to the Texans now? Think they think he’d be worth 2 or 3 1sts? How about Patrick Mahomes? Josh Allen? THE guy is worth everything.
That's why I don't understand the people that don't want us to trade up. We don't even have to look at other teams. Just look at our previous starting QB. No one gives a shit what we gave up and they wouldn't care even if we gave up double the original trade.
Sure the QB could end up being a bust. So could the players you draft with the picks you didn't trade.
Here are our 2 most recent 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Pretend we've never seen any of them play in the NFL. Just going off of them as draft prospects. Would you trade these guys for the #1 pick? This is similar to what you'd be trading for a QB. I know my answer.
Evan Neal, Deonte Banks, Wan'Dale, JMS, Jalin Hyatt & Josh Ezeudu.
Your analysis assumes that you are certain that trading up will net the next Patrick Holmes, Josh Allen, or Lamar Jackson. (And Baltimore actually passed on drafting Jackson twice.)
As this article notes, most trade ups for QBs fail. Link - ( New Window )
Idk if this reply was meant for me, but I'm not assuming a QB we trade up for is the next Mahomes/Allen/Lamar. I've stated numerous times the QB could be a bust, but he could also end up being a great QB. I'm willing to take that chance.
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In comment 16409850 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16409826 Eric on Li said:
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the new regime didnt really decline his 5yo, they just wanted to pay him more sooner i thought?
It's so adorable when you put down your spreadsheets and wave your DJ pompoms instead.
weird interpretation of DJ pom poms but exceedingly more typical sideswipe without a point from a guy getting closer and closer to mirroring one of googs alter egos every day.
If one guy sideswipes without a point and the other guy writes five pages of circular logic, what's the difference besides a shift key?
what were the 5 pages of circular logic about in this case? disputing the maraphobes who have for months (including threads today) said the giants wouldnt entertain a qb in rd 1? guess you caught me red handed in my dj pom poms?
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In comment 16409777 BigBlueCane said:
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that teams are going to jump in front of the Giants and snag the QB they wanted.
Yup.
Falcons/RaIders/Saints/Vikings perhaps. Also Denver. They don't have much draft capital, but they have some players maybe.
Luckily for the Giants they have a much better draft pick than any of those teams. Highly unlikely the Bears/Pats would be willing to move outside of the top 10.
True.
Here's hoping.
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In comment 16409898 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16409850 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16409826 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the new regime didnt really decline his 5yo, they just wanted to pay him more sooner i thought?
It's so adorable when you put down your spreadsheets and wave your DJ pompoms instead.
weird interpretation of DJ pom poms but exceedingly more typical sideswipe without a point from a guy getting closer and closer to mirroring one of googs alter egos every day.
If one guy sideswipes without a point and the other guy writes five pages of circular logic, what's the difference besides a shift key?
what were the 5 pages of circular logic about in this case? disputing the maraphobes who have for months (including threads today) said the giants wouldnt entertain a qb in rd 1? guess you caught me red handed in my dj pom poms?
Oh, we're only talking about "in this case"?
That's convenient. And I'll save you the trouble - I already have the mute button extension. I just won't bother to use it until after I get to see all the RAS screengrabs.
How can that be?
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Only way this makes sense is if they have a certain guy in mind. My guess is Maye.
I'd assume if the Giants are going to trade up to 1 it's for Caleb Williams.
Let's hope it's Williams. What a day that would be, to add a talent of that magnitude to the Giants. Adding Maye or Daniels would be a fine move as well. Honestly, it's worth whatever they have to pay. A top QB is probably worth as much or more than the entire defense. Let's do this and transform a beleaguered franchise.
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This guy can be full of shit, but he's saying Schoen & Daboll wanted to let Jones test the market after the 2022 season, but ownership said no, he's our guy and get it done.
Schoen & Daboll want a QB, but ownership feels the issues were OL and development on the OL. The only way ownership will approve a QB early is if the OL is fixed otherwise they'll view QB as a wasted pick.
I hope it isn't true because that would be troublesome.
I dunno if I believe that. Schoen basically said Jones was going nowhere in his 2022 exit meeting, like a few days after the Eagles game.
If we step back from the Jones situation for one moment, maybe people can realize that while the 2022 season wasn't some epic year, nor was the Minnesota game the greatest game of all time, it was a very good year by Jones given what he was asked to do, and his performance in a road playoff game was very promising.
It's easy to blast the Jones contract in hindsight, but as others have mentioned, it was very measured considering what true franchise QBs make. There were a lot of QB vacancies last year and I think NYG obviously didn't want Jones to get that one offer he needed to leave, possibly even to the Jets.
Hindsight is always 20/20 but I understood the way Schoen tried to play it, which was kind of right down the middle. Jones has never been quite as bad as his harshest BBI critics nor as good as some have made him out to be.
And I'll state for the record as I'm sure my post will rile some people up, he's not the QB for this team. He's not good enough nor dependable enough and I no longer see him as a viable option.
I appreciate your sober take but I have to say, 2022 wasn't a very good year as measured against the league. As a passer he was still well below average. 2022 was saved by Jones' running. But Daboll wants to implement a vertical passing game. He wants to get the ball downfield. Jones can't do that.
what were the 5 pages of circular logic about in this case? disputing the maraphobes who have for months (including threads today) said the giants wouldnt entertain a qb in rd 1? guess you caught me red handed in my dj pom poms?
Oh, we're only talking about "in this case"?
That's convenient. And I'll save you the trouble - I already have the mute button extension. I just won't bother to use it until after I get to see all the RAS screengrabs.
so your comment was a side swipe not related the subject of this thread? isnt "this case" this thread, and a comment i made pertaining to the subject of this thread?
like i said you may as well stake your claim on your next handle, gatorade googs has a nice ring to it.
How can that be?
Poor play, a 2nd neck injury and a torn ACL. It’s not that complicated.
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Is there is no price to steep for a franchise changing QB. What is CJ Stroud worth to the Texans now? Think they think he’d be worth 2 or 3 1sts? How about Patrick Mahomes? Josh Allen? THE guy is worth everything.
Agreed. Wrote this in a few threads.
Now someone’s opinion on the QB is one thing..but if the giants view one of these QBs as “the guy” there is NO realistic trade package that is too step.
As devils advocate, maybe that guy exists at 6? Idk , but i trust the front office to be objective.
Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn't at 1 but exists at 15? That is the crapshoot this is.
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This after just a mere 12 months have passed from signing Daniel Jones into what was labeled as an A-grade contract for the Giants.
How can that be?
Poor play, a 2nd neck injury and a torn ACL. It’s not that complicated.
We re-grade drafts after 3 years. What's the re-grade on the Jones deal after 12 months?
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In comment 16409802 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 16409748 GoDeep13 said:
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Is there is no price to steep for a franchise changing QB. What is CJ Stroud worth to the Texans now? Think they think he’d be worth 2 or 3 1sts? How about Patrick Mahomes? Josh Allen? THE guy is worth everything.
That's why I don't understand the people that don't want us to trade up. We don't even have to look at other teams. Just look at our previous starting QB. No one gives a shit what we gave up and they wouldn't care even if we gave up double the original trade.
Sure the QB could end up being a bust. So could the players you draft with the picks you didn't trade.
Here are our 2 most recent 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks. Pretend we've never seen any of them play in the NFL. Just going off of them as draft prospects. Would you trade these guys for the #1 pick? This is similar to what you'd be trading for a QB. I know my answer.
Evan Neal, Deonte Banks, Wan'Dale, JMS, Jalin Hyatt & Josh Ezeudu.
Your analysis assumes that you are certain that trading up will net the next Patrick Holmes, Josh Allen, or Lamar Jackson. (And Baltimore actually passed on drafting Jackson twice.)
As this article notes, most trade ups for QBs fail. Link - ( New Window )
Idk if this reply was meant for me, but I'm not assuming a QB we trade up for is the next Mahomes/Allen/Lamar. I've stated numerous times the QB could be a bust, but he could also end up being a great QB. I'm willing to take that chance.
That's fine. I respect your opinion. I'm not willing to take that chance, not given the cost to do so.
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This after just a mere 12 months have passed from signing Daniel Jones into what was labeled as an A-grade contract for the Giants.
How can that be?
Poor play, a 2nd neck injury and a torn ACL. It’s not that complicated.
The issue I have with citing the ACL is that it's a well studied injury with a good recovery prognosis for a QB of Jones's age and physical condition.
The neck injury: they felt good enough after the first neck injury to 120 times in 2022 and then pay him. They felt good enough after the second neck injury to put him back on the field against the Raiders before he tore the ACL.
Joe Burrow just finished a season out injured for the second time in his career too. Are the Bengals thinking of moving on?
If the Giants really believe in Jones an ACL injury shouldn't kill that belief, right?
Not all that interesting.
Tell us how he'll play. That is the opinion we want to hear.
Drafting a QB at 6 I can buy, but trading away draft capital and absorbing the DJ contract and expecting the team to all of the sudden have different results is crazy. The Giants operate the cap differently than most teams. They are not a kick the can down the road type of team. If we trade up I don’t see a way for this team to improve under the current situation.
This is totally different than when we drafted Eli. We didn’t have a high salary QB and we had FA money and a solid team. The teams that generally trades up for a QB early in the draft usually crash and burn. They trade away picks and don’t have the ability to build the roster. The QB talent may be there this year but our team isn’t ready to aid in the success. Look at last years draft, Carolina traded away players and picks and many thought Young was the clear #1. The Giants are Carolina 2.0 if we trade up imo. Shitty roster will get the QB killed.
Drafting a QB at 6 I can buy, but trading away draft capital and absorbing the DJ contract and expecting the team to all of the sudden have different results is crazy.
The contract is what it is. You can't pass up on a QB that you evaluate and think can be a solution because you gave out a mistake contract. That's how you make giving the bad contract *worse*, by allowing it to influence what you do going forward.
Until then, I fully expect "we really tried to make a deal to trade up but oh gosh, the asking price was just soooo steep. We have full confidence in Daniel Jones to be our franchise qb." when trade down or they take a wideout or some o-lineman in round 1 and spend a 3rd or 4th round pick on a qb from East Bumfuck State.
Drafting a QB at 6 I can buy, but trading away draft capital and absorbing the DJ contract and expecting the team to all of the sudden have different results is crazy. The Giants operate the cap differently than most teams. They are not a kick the can down the road type of team. If we trade up I don’t see a way for this team to improve under the current situation.
This is totally different than when we drafted Eli. We didn’t have a high salary QB and we had FA money and a solid team. The teams that generally trades up for a QB early in the draft usually crash and burn. They trade away picks and don’t have the ability to build the roster. The QB talent may be there this year but our team isn’t ready to aid in the success. Look at last years draft, Carolina traded away players and picks and many thought Young was the clear #1. The Giants are Carolina 2.0 if we trade up imo. Shitty roster will get the QB killed.
You overvalue draft pick volume. It is the quality of the picks not the quantity.
And the best QBs may get drafted more often in the first round but that doesn't mean they typically go in perfect order. In a deep QB draft QB3 may very well be QB1.
Lastly, drafting a QB isn't about making the Super Bowl in Year 1. It's about being a team that consistently competes for them over his career.
his lips were touched by the hand of God
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In comment 16409945 ThomasG said:
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This after just a mere 12 months have passed from signing Daniel Jones into what was labeled as an A-grade contract for the Giants.
How can that be?
Poor play, a 2nd neck injury and a torn ACL. It’s not that complicated.
The issue I have with citing the ACL is that it's a well studied injury with a good recovery prognosis for a QB of Jones's age and physical condition.
The neck injury: they felt good enough after the first neck injury to 120 times in 2022 and then pay him. They felt good enough after the second neck injury to put him back on the field against the Raiders before he tore the ACL.
Joe Burrow just finished a season out injured for the second time in his career too. Are the Bengals thinking of moving on?
If the Giants really believe in Jones an ACL injury shouldn't kill that belief, right?
This regime never FULLY believed in Jones, hence the deal structure. It’s really not that complicated. And everything that could go wrong went wrong.
Joe Burrow is a million times better QB than Jones. I cited poor play first. That’s obvious. If the injuries are taken as an opportunity to save face and a built in excuse to draft a QB, so be it. We all got to where we wanted to get to regardless. A new rookie QB.
Hopefully we get the guy we want and don’t settle.
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In comment 16409731 Go Terps said:
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Until proven otherwise this is the regime that gave Jones 4/$160M.
Hyperbole. You're smart enough to know how they structured the deal. They're out after 2024 relatively unscathed. It was a hedged bet that lost but still...hedged.
They hedged, but the possibility that he's the QB all four years of the deal is still real. They hedged, but they want to be right.
And that's if Schoen and Daboll are the ones making the call. Look above to Sean's post. We know who's actually making the call.
Go terps you're almost like the Alex Jones of BBI for reasonable members. You like to fear monger everyone into believing your conspiracy based rhetoric is fact. Namely Mara is a puppet master and Schoen won't pivot, adapt or budge off the Jones contract. And this is someone that worries Mara may have been meddling, but potentially is learning to be more hands off in recent years letting our GM create an inner circle of utmost NFL scouting and personnel minds.
I think you're an intelligent person and good poster but your boogeyman, fear mongering rhetoric gets a little old. I think everyone gets what you believe. Why do you have to keep repeating it so repetitively though?
Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Payton Manning all rolled into one... doesn't matter.
Game One he is sitting on the bench watching Daniel Jones at QB.
After that, it's anyone's guess. It all depends on what Daniel Jones does behind center.
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Is there is no price to steep for a franchise changing QB. What is CJ Stroud worth to the Texans now? Think they think he’d be worth 2 or 3 1sts? How about Patrick Mahomes? Josh Allen? THE guy is worth everything.
True but those are after the facts examples. In fact Mahomes and Allen were not the top choices at their positions in their drafts.
I think the best answer is this, if you feel you have a potential guy to be a Mahomes or an Allen then you make efforts to get them.
The absolute best scenario for us would be:
We get a QB (whichever one is not important at the moment) and we see Jones rehab nicely and he begins the season as the starter. With that he looks ok to pretty decent early on and some teams elsewhere have QB injuries.. We trade Jones before the deadline and move our rookie into the starting position for the rest of the season.
That would be best case scenario.
The trade won’t happen because Jones has no value unless it is to a team with an injured starter and a backup worse than Jones.
Seeing what the Saints just did with Carr shows how impactful when these guarantees kicked in. This was not some massive commitment to Jones.
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In comment 16409734 Danny Kanell said:
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In comment 16409731 Go Terps said:
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Until proven otherwise this is the regime that gave Jones 4/$160M.
Hyperbole. You're smart enough to know how they structured the deal. They're out after 2024 relatively unscathed. It was a hedged bet that lost but still...hedged.
They hedged, but the possibility that he's the QB all four years of the deal is still real. They hedged, but they want to be right.
And that's if Schoen and Daboll are the ones making the call. Look above to Sean's post. We know who's actually making the call.
Go terps you're almost like the Alex Jones of BBI for reasonable members. You like to fear monger everyone into believing your conspiracy based rhetoric is fact. Namely Mara is a puppet master and Schoen won't pivot, adapt or budge off the Jones contract. And this is someone that worries Mara may have been meddling, but potentially is learning to be more hands off in recent years letting our GM create an inner circle of utmost NFL scouting and personnel minds.
I think you're an intelligent person and good poster but your boogeyman, fear mongering rhetoric gets a little old. I think everyone gets what you believe. Why do you have to keep repeating it so repetitively though?
Whose dupe are you?
Yes please
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
I do too. I'm fine doing it when you're on the clock, but taking the leftovers rubs me the wrong way.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
was buffalo wrong to move up to pick #7 for qb3?
of course they will try to move up for whoever they like best but if chicago decides caleb is it there is no trade they will accept. same with washington and whoever they like best.
it's not impossible that more than 1 guy makes the grade or that different teams grade players differently. nobody will know until picks start getting made.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
Bears would cost will be cost prohibitive, IF they decided to sell it, which I doubt after listening to Poles talk about Fields.
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trade up to 3 and take the guy available move. If your gonna move get to 1 and really have your pick.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
I do too. I'm fine doing it when you're on the clock, but taking the leftovers rubs me the wrong way.
was stroud leftovers last year? by the time the draft rolls around it may be that bryce was a more consensus qb1 than caleb. as prospects id probably still take bryce over this years class but im a big bryce believer.
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And trade away a bunch of draft capital to get the 3rd best QB? I think the Bears are going QB, Washington is going QB, NE should go QB but may trade if the guy they want it gone.
Drafting a QB at 6 I can buy, but trading away draft capital and absorbing the DJ contract and expecting the team to all of the sudden have different results is crazy.
The contract is what it is. You can't pass up on a QB that you evaluate and think can be a solution because you gave out a mistake contract. That's how you make giving the bad contract *worse*, by allowing it to influence what you do going forward.
Eli's last 6-8 years were wasted because we had no talent around him. Was he a bad QB all of the sudden? His best year was 2011 and he had a great supporting cast. Over 500 more passing yards that year compared to any other year.
The supporting cast matters. We have no supporting cast, It is setting up a QB for failure. Look at just about every HOF QB and you can see a clear cast of players that helped them get to where they are. They are not dealing with the worst units. Mahomes has Kelce and a great OL, Burrow has great WRs, Montana had Rice, Brady and Gronk, Allen has Diggs. Very rare to see a QB successful without a complimentary piece or 2 or 3. We have no OL, No RB, No TE and No real threat at WR. Thats way too many holes for a QB to be successful and then trading away draft picks to get a QB. I dont see how it can be a successful in a trade up scenario.
These guys had Jones for over a year and gave him a big contract. They saw him day in and day out and said he's our guy.
My point is if a guy at QB falls to you at 6 by all means take the QB. Trading up to 1 is going to cost too much especially with the cap ramifications of having Jones contract. The rookie savings is lost.
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In comment 16409993 Rudy5757 said:
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And trade away a bunch of draft capital to get the 3rd best QB? I think the Bears are going QB, Washington is going QB, NE should go QB but may trade if the guy they want it gone.
Drafting a QB at 6 I can buy, but trading away draft capital and absorbing the DJ contract and expecting the team to all of the sudden have different results is crazy.
The contract is what it is. You can't pass up on a QB that you evaluate and think can be a solution because you gave out a mistake contract. That's how you make giving the bad contract *worse*, by allowing it to influence what you do going forward.
Eli's last 6-8 years were wasted because we had no talent around him. Was he a bad QB all of the sudden? His best year was 2011 and he had a great supporting cast. Over 500 more passing yards that year compared to any other year.
The supporting cast matters. We have no supporting cast, It is setting up a QB for failure. Look at just about every HOF QB and you can see a clear cast of players that helped them get to where they are. They are not dealing with the worst units. Mahomes has Kelce and a great OL, Burrow has great WRs, Montana had Rice, Brady and Gronk, Allen has Diggs. Very rare to see a QB successful without a complimentary piece or 2 or 3. We have no OL, No RB, No TE and No real threat at WR. Thats way too many holes for a QB to be successful and then trading away draft picks to get a QB. I dont see how it can be a successful in a trade up scenario.
These guys had Jones for over a year and gave him a big contract. They saw him day in and day out and said he's our guy.
My point is if a guy at QB falls to you at 6 by all means take the QB. Trading up to 1 is going to cost too much especially with the cap ramifications of having Jones contract. The rookie savings is lost.
When can we stop comparing Jones' situation to all-time greats? Two things can be true, the supporting cast can be subpar, and Jones can be (and is) a bad quarterback. And we are at the point where he is holding us back. Great QBs don't play as poorly as Jones played in 2023. They just don't. The same players you mention, were all able to produce when they lost great pieces, or had less than desirable circumstances. They've been mentioned before, I won't detail them here. But QB talent matters. More than context, which is also important.
To answer your questions. Yes, Eli had a precipitous drop in the latter half of his career. He wasn't the same player in 2018 that he was in 2011. He declined. It happens to most QBs.
And by the same logic you use when you say:
"These guys had Jones for over a year and gave him a big contract. They saw him day in and day out and said he's our guy."
Well if they now decide he is not the guy, shouldn't you listen? Were they right when they gave him the *limited commitment* contract? But then wrong to pivot away from him (if they do) after a disastrous performance by him? You can't have it both ways. Don't tell us they said he was the guy, so he's the guy, even if they have decided to move away. And for the record, I never thought Daniel Jones was a good QB, and felt the contract was a huge error, and moving away post haste is the correct move.
Only after failing to find a leather helmet wearing drop kicker.
IF there's a guy the Giants wants is still on the board at 3, that's when the Giants should pull the trigger. If they make the trade in advance, their intel on what the top two are going to do better be darn good.
Much depends on NE's approach to the draft. If they get a top vet prior, they'll probably be fielding offers prior, so it may require a leap of faith to make the deal before hand.
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In comment 16410084 Dankbeerman said:
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trade up to 3 and take the guy available move. If your gonna move get to 1 and really have your pick.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
I do too. I'm fine doing it when you're on the clock, but taking the leftovers rubs me the wrong way.
was stroud leftovers last year? by the time the draft rolls around it may be that bryce was a more consensus qb1 than caleb. as prospects id probably still take bryce over this years class but im a big bryce believer.
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trade up to 3 and take the guy available move. If your gonna move get to 1 and really have your pick.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
was buffalo wrong to move up to pick #7 for qb3?
of course they will try to move up for whoever they like best but if chicago decides caleb is it there is no trade they will accept. same with washington and whoever they like best.
it's not impossible that more than 1 guy makes the grade or that different teams grade players differently. nobody will know until picks start getting made.
Buffalo didn't move to the top 3 to take Allen. They traded up for him after he dropped out of the top 6.
The move from that draft that would be parallel would be the Jets who moved to 3.
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what were the 5 pages of circular logic about in this case? disputing the maraphobes who have for months (including threads today) said the giants wouldnt entertain a qb in rd 1? guess you caught me red handed in my dj pom poms?
Oh, we're only talking about "in this case"?
That's convenient. And I'll save you the trouble - I already have the mute button extension. I just won't bother to use it until after I get to see all the RAS screengrabs.
so your comment was a side swipe not related the subject of this thread? isnt "this case" this thread, and a comment i made pertaining to the subject of this thread?
like i said you may as well stake your claim on your next handle, gatorade googs has a nice ring to it.
My next handle? So after 18 years with this one handle, I'm going to just switch it up?
You are an odd dude, especially when you get a little sand in your diaper.
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In comment 16409995 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 16409993 Rudy5757 said:
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And trade away a bunch of draft capital to get the 3rd best QB? I think the Bears are going QB, Washington is going QB, NE should go QB but may trade if the guy they want it gone.
Drafting a QB at 6 I can buy, but trading away draft capital and absorbing the DJ contract and expecting the team to all of the sudden have different results is crazy.
The contract is what it is. You can't pass up on a QB that you evaluate and think can be a solution because you gave out a mistake contract. That's how you make giving the bad contract *worse*, by allowing it to influence what you do going forward.
Eli's last 6-8 years were wasted because we had no talent around him. Was he a bad QB all of the sudden? His best year was 2011 and he had a great supporting cast. Over 500 more passing yards that year compared to any other year.
The supporting cast matters. We have no supporting cast, It is setting up a QB for failure. Look at just about every HOF QB and you can see a clear cast of players that helped them get to where they are. They are not dealing with the worst units. Mahomes has Kelce and a great OL, Burrow has great WRs, Montana had Rice, Brady and Gronk, Allen has Diggs. Very rare to see a QB successful without a complimentary piece or 2 or 3. We have no OL, No RB, No TE and No real threat at WR. Thats way too many holes for a QB to be successful and then trading away draft picks to get a QB. I dont see how it can be a successful in a trade up scenario.
These guys had Jones for over a year and gave him a big contract. They saw him day in and day out and said he's our guy.
My point is if a guy at QB falls to you at 6 by all means take the QB. Trading up to 1 is going to cost too much especially with the cap ramifications of having Jones contract. The rookie savings is lost.
When can we stop comparing Jones' situation to all-time greats? Two things can be true, the supporting cast can be subpar, and Jones can be (and is) a bad quarterback. And we are at the point where he is holding us back. Great QBs don't play as poorly as Jones played in 2023. They just don't. The same players you mention, were all able to produce when they lost great pieces, or had less than desirable circumstances. They've been mentioned before, I won't detail them here. But QB talent matters. More than context, which is also important.
To answer your questions. Yes, Eli had a precipitous drop in the latter half of his career. He wasn't the same player in 2018 that he was in 2011. He declined. It happens to most QBs.
And by the same logic you use when you say:
"These guys had Jones for over a year and gave him a big contract. They saw him day in and day out and said he's our guy."
Well if they now decide he is not the guy, shouldn't you listen? Were they right when they gave him the *limited commitment* contract? But then wrong to pivot away from him (if they do) after a disastrous performance by him? You can't have it both ways. Don't tell us they said he was the guy, so he's the guy, even if they have decided to move away. And for the record, I never thought Daniel Jones was a good QB, and felt the contract was a huge error, and moving away post haste is the correct move.
Go back and look at Eli's career. In 2012 when the team was clearly old and his weapons were not fully there Eli's passing yards dropped by 1000 yards, Eli was not in decline. The teams talent was. Magically in 2014 and 2015 when they got OBJ his numbers jumped back up significantly, then OBJ gets hurt and his numbers decline again significantly. It clearly had to do with the talent around him.
Id argue that if they can't evaluate a guy they worked with on a daily basis then they probably arent the best people to pick a new QB either. But the reality is if you can't upgrade the talent around the QB, any QB will fail. If we trade a haul of picks and dont have the cap money to really get weapons we are repeating the process of having a good enough QB in a bad situation. If we had a solid team on O it's a different story.
Do you really think that? I don't know Jon, I'm reading it the complete opposite to be honest.
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In comment 16410084 Dankbeerman said:
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trade up to 3 and take the guy available move. If your gonna move get to 1 and really have your pick.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
was buffalo wrong to move up to pick #7 for qb3?
of course they will try to move up for whoever they like best but if chicago decides caleb is it there is no trade they will accept. same with washington and whoever they like best.
it's not impossible that more than 1 guy makes the grade or that different teams grade players differently. nobody will know until picks start getting made.
What your indicating is that you would rather take the 3rd QB with out knowing who it would be to save a few assets then to pay full price to know you get your guy.
Buffalo didn't move to the top 3 to take Allen. They traded up for him after he dropped out of the top 6.
The move from that draft that would be parallel would be the Jets who moved to 3.
no dan, i didnt not say take the 3rd qb without knowing to save assets. did you read the post you replied to? i specifically said they will try to move up as high as they can for whoever they like best, just as buf did. anyone would.
if chicago/washington want qbs then 3 is the highest anyone else is going to get. but even that doesnt mean other teams wont take different qbs than whoever the giants like just as cleveland took mayfield and jets took darnold ahead of allen.
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until a deal is announced. They're going to pick a WR or OT and ride with giving Daniel more help.
Do you really think that? I don't know Jon, I'm reading it the complete opposite to be honest.
if mike g feels confident enough to predict they are doing it then there's no way it's not plan A (not that plan A always happens).
this board has a lot of dog catching the car right now. some have chased for so long they should find any other non-jones qb while concocting all manner of reasons why they didnt but now that it's being credibly reported as possible (and makes obvious sense given the draft) they seemingly wont believe it until they see it.
its not an unfair approach because nothing is ever guaranteed in draft but clearly they are correctly very much in the qb market.
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until a deal is announced. They're going to pick a WR or OT and ride with giving Daniel more help.
Do you really think that? I don't know Jon, I'm reading it the complete opposite to be honest.
To this point, they've done little to deviate from past big decisions, and Jones is the biggest.
After $140M and six games, I don't see a pivot unless ownership is on board. I hope they can leverage the injuries to induce change, but until it's actually done ...
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
I believe the report they will investigate/attempt to move up, I just don’t see it happening with the QB needs of the teams above us.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
Barkley was tagged last year instead of traded, so I don't know that I share your view that he was tough on Barkley.
In a nutshell, he hasn't moved on from either player so I am not sure why he would get "credit" for doing tough things he immediately undid.
Barkley was tagged last year instead of traded, so I don't know that I share your view that he was tough on Barkley.
In a nutshell, he hasn't moved on from either player so I am not sure why he would get "credit" for doing tough things he immediately undid.
he hasnt moved on from either player because at those times he didnt have good alternatives and the 2 of them carried the offense to it's best year since obj. yes it was still middle of the pack but middle of the pack at best but thats better than back of the pack.
its a lot easier to blast players to siberia when you arent the one responsible for finding their replacements.
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absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
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In comment 16410404 JonC said:
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absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
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He gets credit for decisions he didn't immediately walk back. Yes he declined the 5th year option on Jones. Then he signed him to a contract that paid him much more than the 5th year option was worth.
Barkley was tagged last year instead of traded, so I don't know that I share your view that he was tough on Barkley.
In a nutshell, he hasn't moved on from either player so I am not sure why he would get "credit" for doing tough things he immediately undid.
he hasnt moved on from either player because at those times he didnt have good alternatives and the 2 of them carried the offense to it's best year since obj. yes it was still middle of the pack but middle of the pack at best but thats better than back of the pack.
its a lot easier to blast players to siberia when you arent the one responsible for finding their replacements.
There were numerous good alternatives to paying Jones $82M in guaranteed money. They already had a plan in place with a better player in Tyrod Taylor as the bridge to the 2023 and 2024 drafts. And before you cite Taylor's health, I'll remind you Jones played 6 games in 2023.
Taylor/cheap vet FA or draft pick/DeVito - completely realistic QB room that would have been better than 2023, cheaper than 2023, and wouldn't have had negative impacts after 2023. The only catch is it would have been a tough sell for the mouth breathers.
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
You need to look at this differently.
Yes, Schoen made a mistake. But it was the "right mistake" because he had no other options. If they could give out internal awards at 1925 GW, Schoen would get the "He Did the Best He Could Award"...
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In comment 16410444 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16410404 JonC said:
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absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
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He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
You need to look at this differently.
Yes, Schoen made a mistake. But it was the "right mistake" because he had no other options. If they could give out internal awards at 1925 GW, Schoen would get the "He Did the Best He Could Award"...
Yep, and you would think they'd learn something from the bad decisions made on Solder, Golladay, but no.
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absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
Imaginary curve, right.
Schoen wasted a good 5 year option decision by giving out a silly 4 year contract with an injury clause to boot. And Barkley was still overpaid last year and should have been traded.
Imagine that.
Anyone who isn't realistic how tough that situation is to manage for a young, first time GM is being unfair imo.
Now Adam Peters? That is a million times easier. He's got no canaries in the coal mine. A true clean slate.
I just find your stance to be especially harsh on Schoen given you openly state Mara mandated Eli on Gettleman.
Again, Schoen mishandled it, but let's not ignore the factors he dealt with.
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In comment 16410489 JonC said:
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He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
You need to look at this differently.
Yes, Schoen made a mistake. But it was the "right mistake" because he had no other options. If they could give out internal awards at 1925 GW, Schoen would get the "He Did the Best He Could Award"...
Yep, and you would think they'd learn something from the bad decisions made on Solder, Golladay, but no.
They must be following the BBI popular majority.
Anyone who isn't realistic how tough that situation is to manage for a young, first time GM is being unfair imo.
Now Adam Peters? That is a million times easier. He's got no canaries in the coal mine. A true clean slate.
I just find your stance to be especially harsh on Schoen given you openly state Mara mandated Eli on Gettleman.
Again, Schoen mishandled it, but let's not ignore the factors he dealt with.
Imagine being that influenced by Jones and Barkley, two absolute non-entities in Giants history. The plan these last five years had been little more than trying to wish these two into relevance. I can't wait until they're gone if for nothing else than maybe ownership will start to see things a little more clearly.
A blame Schoen because I contend Schoen believed that re-investing in Jones was a smart move. It was his call.
I get your point about a first time GM trying to manage ownership. But what if that wasn't a problem because Schoen - again - actually believed in Jones? So, there wouldn't be any friction.
And that's where we diverge. You contend that Mara may have leaned on Schoen. So, you give Schoen some leeway in this. You may be right.
But I have read and heard enough to believe Mara actually gave Schoen the decision-making process we wanted.
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In comment 16410489 JonC said:
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In comment 16410444 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16410404 JonC said:
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absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
You didn’t answer the question other than to say you’d be doing the same thing Mike g is reporting they are trying to do now. Who was your qb in 2023?
I wanted the NEFT but the Jones contract was to compete for at least the next two years. Then most things that could have gone wrong did to start the season so it looks worse.
The most important factor is winning games. This keeps the HC around. Schoen has a little more rope imv. I can see it going several different ways. From a trade up to sticking at 6. Even a aggressive trade back wouldn't surprise me. I think a QB will be drafted somewhere.
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In comment 16410501 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16410489 JonC said:
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In comment 16410444 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16410404 JonC said:
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absolutely the opposite is true in that regard.
NYG typically lags behind in the big decision, forward vision category, and I'm still waiting to Schoen to demonstrate he's strong enough to break the cycle.
he declined the 5yo, he stood firm in barkley negotiations, his first move was hiring his brian over the bc brian we knew mara wanted badly.
at what point do we stop grading him on an imaginary curve?
He blew the QB decision, there is no imagination over it.
Howabout drop the condescension, it's not like I'm uninformed.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
You didn’t answer the question other than to say you’d be doing the same thing Mike g is reporting they are trying to do now. Who was your qb in 2023?
You asked "right now" and I answered.
In 2023, I would've allowed Jones to test the market, stuck with the plan of Tyrod and another veteran or draft pick or Jones on the FT. The absolute last thing I would've entertained was what NYG did.
I had no false illusions over the playoff win, the loss mattered much more. Fast forward ...
I'm done with your questions.
honest question, starting with players from the day that schoen took over, who would gm jonc's starting qb be right now?
Very likely one of the top 3 QBs about to be drafted.
That's the whole point, take your medicine, admit and purge the mistakes, stop hanging on for too long.
The 2022 season was fun, as was the Vikes win, but anyone making pivotal franchise decisions based largely off that win, isn't paying attention to the product on the field. The demolition by Philly a week later should've driven the point home.
You didn’t answer the question other than to say you’d be doing the same thing Mike g is reporting they are trying to do now. Who was your qb in 2023?
You asked "right now" and I answered.
In 2023, I would've allowed Jones to test the market, stuck with the plan of Tyrod and another veteran or draft pick or Jones on the FT. The absolute last thing I would've entertained was what NYG did.
I had no false illusions over the playoff win, the loss mattered much more. Fast forward ...
I'm done with your questions.
sorry if it was unclear when i said "starting from the day schoen took over" i meant who would the starting QB have been through right now, not who they hope to draft in 2 months.
either way you answered the question, tyrod, some other non-difference making vet, or jones on FT, and picking a qb in this year's draft. so same things they chose, they just gave jones 1 extra guaranteed year and lowered the cap hit in 2023.
Some want to hang on to Jones for dear life, some want to keep him until the right QB is acquired, I just wanted to move away from Jones and allow the franchise to properly bottom out, finally.
Some want to hang on to Jones for dear life, some want to keep him until the right QB is acquired, I just wanted to move away from Jones and allow the franchise to properly bottom out, finally.
it's not influencing who they are meeting with at the combine.
it's not influencing them away from talking to the teams at 1, 2, 3 about trade ups.
beyond his reporting about what they're already doing it's not influencing mike g reporting that they are trying to take a qb.
it does provide them a back up plan if they cant get the guy they want, which could happen regardless of any effort they make. if they only have 3 guys who make the grade the teams 1-3 could decide to take them and not trade out. that's not in their control. or worse if they only have 2 guys, but i think they will at least like 3 of the 4.
ok, so if you'll indulge me re-asking my prior question but hopefully clearer this time - starting from january 2022 when the new regime took over, who was under center starting 2022 and 2023?
pick from anyone who was available to them in those drafts or free agent classes.
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In comment 16410084 Dankbeerman said:
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trade up to 3 and take the guy available move. If your gonna move get to 1 and really have your pick.
You cant split the baby and try to hold onto assets and get the top QB.
If your going in, go all in.
I do too. I'm fine doing it when you're on the clock, but taking the leftovers rubs me the wrong way.
was stroud leftovers last year? by the time the draft rolls around it may be that bryce was a more consensus qb1 than caleb. as prospects id probably still take bryce over this years class but im a big bryce believer.
That isn't what I'm talking about: I don't want to trade up to three content with whoever lands. I want real conviction in a guy if we are moving serious assets.
A trade up to whatever pick they get to means they like the options there. I wouldn’t bother trying to view it any other way.
A trade up to whatever pick they get to means they like the options there. I wouldn’t bother trying to view it any other way.
Sure, it's communicating they like three guys. Jets did that when they got Darnold, Niners with Lance.
It's a fair point on the deal might not be available on draft day.
"tear it down, build from scratch" sounds great, except when the best prospect in that year's draft is kenny pickett. in 2022 they had no good alternative and jones was only a year older than pickett anyway, already on the final year of his rookie deal since they declined the 5yo.
in 2023 you may not have retained jones at the same contract they chose to but you did say you may have tagged him. very few teams are letting their 26 year old starting qb walk without having a better alternative than tyrod, who extended his streak to 5 years straight ending up injured within a month of starting.
as things turned out it was a difference without a distinction any way since jones got hurt and they got themselves a pick right in the thick of this year's QB class.
was stroud leftovers last year? by the time the draft rolls around it may be that bryce was a more consensus qb1 than caleb. as prospects id probably still take bryce over this years class but im a big bryce believer.
That isn't what I'm talking about: I don't want to trade up to three content with whoever lands. I want real conviction in a guy if we are moving serious assets.
i agree - this was my reply to Dan's comment directly which is more clear than the my reply to you was:
In comment 16410086 Eric on Li said:
was buffalo wrong to move up to pick #7 for qb3?
of course they will try to move up for whoever they like best but if chicago decides caleb is it there is no trade they will accept. same with washington and whoever they like best.
it's not impossible that more than 1 guy makes the grade or that different teams grade players differently. nobody will know until picks start getting made.
the point about possibly needing to make the trade now because that's when the market moves is a good one. i dont know what id do because it's a leap of faith unless you have at least 3 QBs you feel really good about.
if you have 2 qbs you love, do you trade to 3 now and hope you get lucky? tough call. you can always trade back down at the draft to try to recover as much as you can because even you only liked 2 qbs, maybe someone else liked 3 (or a different 2)? If MHJ is the worst case scenario that's not awful either.
It was a really bad miscalculation by Schoen. Imagine being able to walk away free and clear of Jones this offseason with another 40 million in cap room?
2023 could have been any combination of:
1. Taylor
2. Dalton/Brissett/Keenum/Mariota
3. DeVito/Levis/Hooker/Haener/O'Connell/Tune/DTR
That approach gives the Giants both veteran coverage at the position and the opportunity to develop a young draft prospect. How aggressive they would have been in the draft is unknown because we don't know how they rated Levis, Hooker, etc. But nothing in that 2023 approach need prevent them from being involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
The only hangup to that approach is the attachment to Jones. But it needed to be accepted that the attachment was deferred the day they didn't pick up the fifth year option. Alas, they reversed themselves and now they have both the massive 2024 Jones cap hit AND possible reason not to be involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
DJ was the best option coming off the road playoff win, and they signed him to a mid-level starter deal with an escape hatch. They are free to bring in a better QB if they can.
DJ was the best option coming off the road playoff win, and they signed him to a mid-level starter deal with an escape hatch. They are free to bring in a better QB if they can.
They were not coming off a road playoff win. They were coming off a 38-7 road playoff defeat to a division rival.
That said, I would move up in 2024. I would PREFER a QB that can create on his own. Think, off schedule. There are 3 QBs I would draft because of Jones injuries and the ability to upgrade the most important position on the team.
We drafted the QB high in the first round and he won a playoff game.
Of course we signed him, it wasn't crippling. We are ALL talking about the possibility of the Giants trading up, including a trusted reporter. So clearly, we are not STUCK with Jones. We could draft one this year and have enough cap to add some talent.
2023 could have been any combination of:
1. Taylor
2. Dalton/Brissett/Keenum/Mariota
3. DeVito/Levis/Hooker/Haener/O'Connell/Tune/DTR
That approach gives the Giants both veteran coverage at the position and the opportunity to develop a young draft prospect. How aggressive they would have been in the draft is unknown because we don't know how they rated Levis, Hooker, etc. But nothing in that 2023 approach need prevent them from being involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
The only hangup to that approach is the attachment to Jones. But it needed to be accepted that the attachment was deferred the day they didn't pick up the fifth year option. Alas, they reversed themselves and now they have both the massive 2024 Jones cap hit AND possible reason not to be involved in the 2024 QB draft class.
"attachment" wasnt the only hang up. by any tangible metric jones was a lot better in 2022 than the guys you mentioned on top of being almost a decade younger.
in 2022 tyrod got carted off in the preseason and made it what 1 series against chicago early in the year 2022? That has been the story with him since 2018 and why in 2022 nobody signed him as a free agent to be a starting QB.
lets also not pretend this is a decision only the giants make. Seahawks didnt do it with Geno, they paid him. Bucs seem like they arent going to do it with Baker. 49ers didnt do it with Jimmy G even after they'd traded 3 firsts for Lance. in fact the only teams i can think of who have used that kind of backup/mid round pick strategy with QBs are teams whose coaches just got fired (atlanta w/ your guy mariota, washington).
sean payton seems to irrationally hate russ even though i thought he kept that team afloat this year so it will be interesting to see what happens. he may do it, but if he does it before the draft i think it's a big risk that could blow up in his face bc then he's scrambling to find a starting qb.
the only reason that isnt the smarter move is if you are worried he literally may not be able to make it through the game. as he wasnt against chicago and as he almost wasnt against miami this year.
I get that, and Odunze looks great. I just wonder how second-tier JJM is. I just looked at a bunch of mocks by pros that have him going either at 8 or 12. Not sure I see such a big difference between 6 and 8 or 12.
The most logical scenario is the Giants go with either Odunze or Nabers in the first round and take a QB with their first pick in the second round (Nix, Penix or even Rattler). They then spend their next pick in the second round on an offensive lineman who can play tackle or guard (Barton?).
They just need someone who can put some pressure on Jones now and potentially be the starter in a year.
It was a really bad miscalculation by Schoen. Imagine being able to walk away free and clear of Jones this offseason with another 40 million in cap room?
A tag eliminates Bobby Okereke and his signing and possibly another like A'Shawn.
Too many nay-sayers in regards to JJ and it's all because the Michigan offense was a run first approach and had a less than stellar line for a heavy pass game. Shit happens. It doesn't define what kind of player or what he's truly capable of. A 20 year old kid played fantastic in big moments. That's an intangible that can't be taught.
I feel like he is going top 10, if not 5-6 depending if the Chargers trade out.