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Pat Kirwan just crushed Caleb Williams...

bw in dc : 3/1/2024 3:40 pm
I'm a big fan of Pat on NFL Radio and he's not a guy who says things for shock value.

But CW's actions at the Combine really troubled him. I'm paraphrasing, but here is the gist:

- The comments about Chicago sound rehearsed and phony. And other GMs felt similarly.

- Not doing the medical is a red flag and reflects on CW's decision making in general. Just not acting like a grown up.

- Comes off too much like he plays an individual sport, not a team sport.

- Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing because it could change his perspective about what's expected of him as an NFL QB.

- Thinks CW's actions here could create an opening for Daniels to get even closer to the #1 pick.

Just some more perspective to consider from a guy with 30+ years of NFL experience...
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RE: Anyone who is unwilling to submit to the medical..  
Manhattan : 3/2/2024 6:57 am : link
In comment 16413742 DefenseWins said:
Quote:
inspection is a huge red flag for me. We are not talking about not wanting to run the 40.

The results of the medical can and would be a factor in whether the team would actually want to draft you at all let alone at the top of the draft.

I would not spend the draft capital and money on a player if I cannot see whether he is healthy right now.

IMO I would be pissed if the Giants did not select a QB high in this draft. I would be equally pissed if they selected this QB.


More faux outrage. He's doing medicals with teams in position to draft him. So you can dispel the notion that if the Giants move into position to draft him, they won't be able to check out his medicals.
RE: RE: Anyone who is unwilling to submit to the medical..  
DefenseWins : 3/2/2024 7:39 am : link
In comment 16413748 Manhattan said:
[quote]
More faux outrage. [/quote

I think you need to figure out the definition of outrage. I simply stated my opinion. I am not outraged about anything that I read on BBI.

So, it is not outrage, nor is it faux. Are you suggesting that I was faking being outraged when my post did not even suggest that I was outraged?

Any therapists or English teachers here on BBI who can help?
RE: RE: RE: Anyone who is unwilling to submit to the medical..  
Manhattan : 3/2/2024 7:51 am : link
In comment 16413756 DefenseWins said:
Quote:
In comment 16413748 Manhattan said:
[quote]
More faux outrage. [/quote

I think you need to figure out the definition of outrage. I simply stated my opinion. I am not outraged about anything that I read on BBI.

So, it is not outrage, nor is it faux. Are you suggesting that I was faking being outraged when my post did not even suggest that I was outraged?

Any therapists or English teachers here on BBI who can help?


Ok. Then you're just misinformed. Any team with a shot to draft him gets medicals.
Paints  
SoZKillA : 3/2/2024 7:52 am : link
his fingernails, cries in the stands with his mommy, his dad is way too involved, and this is a guy who's going to lead other grown MEN on Sundays and be the face of the franchise?

Lol.

He's good but some people are acting like he'll be Mahomes right away.
RE: RE: Lol  
JT039 : 3/2/2024 8:17 am : link
In comment 16413735 Manhattan said:
Quote:
In comment 16413732 JT039 said:


Quote:


So this interview matters? lol. What a clown.



It's a clear, direct set of answers. Not just a jock who looks lost. If you can't see it, you have bigger problems than what crops up on a message board. You should stop harrassing people who have different opinions then you. You're coming across as an angry, ignorant, unlikable bully. This is the last I'll address you until you can manage to figure out what the words civility and collegiality mean.


You attack anyone who says something negative about Caleb Williams. You “producer “ nothing but hit attacks and shit.

Get a mirror buddy.
He’s a faux poster  
UConn4523 : 3/2/2024 8:47 am : link
the thread is now over
RE: Kirwan on CW  
JoeSchoens11 : 3/2/2024 8:56 am : link
In comment 16413734 johnboyw said:
Quote:
Prior to hearing Pat’s thoughts on CW, my sense of him is he has a very high opinion of himself with no governor on it. He acts as though he’s bigger than the game itself and can make his own rules because, in his opinion, he’s the best.

Will be interesting to see how this all works out for him but I have to believe that some coaches who run a tight, team oriented program are going to get turned off by the guy, regardless of his talent.

I only hope he doesn’t fall to #6.
A lot of this may be amplified by not having an agent to coach him up, guide his thoughts, and vet his statements. I’m sure every first rounder has an inflated ego but the top picks just get a lot more publicity.

I’m more alarmed by MHJ skipping an actual commitment than any of the CW flags listed here (though he’s had many flags pop up through the year). Pretty safe bet that he’s not falling anywhere close to 6. It’s equally safe to assume that teams picking top-5 don’t run a tight ship :-)
I think ALL the posters here are missing the obvious  
rich in DC : 3/2/2024 9:07 am : link
It’s actually kind of funny to read this thread and how everyone is using this to somehow further their own personal narratives about the player without actually stopping to remember several underlying points.

First, Williams has no agent. A number of people in the media have been speculating for some time that he was going to be the subject of media attacks by teams hoping to drive his draft position down and agents looking to push their clients up. With no agent, he has no one to go attack the story or put their own counter attack out there to protect the client.

Second, people forget that sports media is a relationship business. Kirwan is not immune to that. He gets fed a story enough and he’ll run with it. I have no doubt that there are teams that are turned off by his decision- but most of this is faux outrage designed to fill two months before the draft, as well as to help teams trying to create doubt for the Bears. Remember there are several clubs (including the Giants) who would benefit if the Bears decided Williams will be too much.

Third, to remain productive, Kirwan needs leaks and info. Like most journalists in sports, he is not above carrying someone’s water for them if it gets him the story. This has all the making of a “hit piece” that gets him some favors to call in closer to the draft. Is this one of those stories that sinks a player like the Tunsal pot mask? No- but it advances the agenda of several teams and agents- and Kirwan will be able to circle back in April for better stuff.

Finally, Kirwan is “old school” media. Many of these guys have a LOT of trouble relating to the new generation of player and are legitimately turned off by some of the things they do and the decisions they make. In many ways, when I read the story, I had the meme image of old man waving fist at a cloud in my mind.

Bottom line- this thread has been a fascinating Rorschach test of fan’s thoughts on Williams. however, what is missing in all the strum and fury is the understanding of the likely situation. Instead, it has done exactly what whoever fed Kirwan the story intended- General disparagement of Williams and his character, in hope hope that it either causes the Bears to pass on him or trade out of the pick.
RE: I think ALL the posters here are missing the obvious  
section125 : 3/2/2024 9:24 am : link
In comment 16413795 rich in DC said:
Quote:
.......


rich, there is no doubt Williams is a little "strange" and it could be the immaturity of a 21 y/o. The lack of an agent doesn't help, for sure.
So Pat Kirwan is just carrying water for some unnamed organization hoping Williams falls? I doubt it. What team is going to fall for this kind of "hit piece" now that Gettleman is gone!

CW is really correct to limit his physicals to the top 6-8 teams(or even fewer). Doubt anyone else has a chance to move up to #1.

I will always remember(and doubted) the hoopla of Eli Apple and his "red flag" of being a momma's boy and how it turned out to be prescient. I will acknowledge that 95% of people say he is the best QB in the draft. Same was said of Jeff George and arguably Ryan Leaf...I am not saying CW is at that level, but buyer needs to be aware. And what is to say that a few GMS didn't grumble about CW's behavior?

It is lying season. Perhaps Kirwan is flushing out which teams are truly interested. Perhaps he is just reporting what he is hearing because it does generate clicks...
RE: RE: I think ALL the posters here are missing the obvious  
Mike in NY : 3/2/2024 9:42 am : link
In comment 16413805 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16413795 rich in DC said:


Quote:


.......



rich, there is no doubt Williams is a little "strange" and it could be the immaturity of a 21 y/o. The lack of an agent doesn't help, for sure.
So Pat Kirwan is just carrying water for some unnamed organization hoping Williams falls? I doubt it. What team is going to fall for this kind of "hit piece" now that Gettleman is gone!

CW is really correct to limit his physicals to the top 6-8 teams(or even fewer). Doubt anyone else has a chance to move up to #1.

I will always remember(and doubted) the hoopla of Eli Apple and his "red flag" of being a momma's boy and how it turned out to be prescient. I will acknowledge that 95% of people say he is the best QB in the draft. Same was said of Jeff George and arguably Ryan Leaf...I am not saying CW is at that level, but buyer needs to be aware. And what is to say that a few GMS didn't grumble about CW's behavior?

It is lying season. Perhaps Kirwan is flushing out which teams are truly interested. Perhaps he is just reporting what he is hearing because it does generate clicks...


Kirwan typically doesn’t behave like a click bait guy. Also, the NFL combine isn’t 32 docs prodding you. Do I think an agent for another QB could be spreading every “red flag”, yes, but I also think that any NFL team that is even halfway competent knows about the risks already. It isn’t like the movie Draft Day where you suddenly learn things as the draft is almost about to start.
Jim and Pat  
Bernie : 3/2/2024 9:43 am : link
Are the best listen on NFL radio. Pat has contacts throughout the league and is well tied in. Does he have personal biases? Of course. Having said that, only people who have not been paying attention over the last 2 years would think there are not at least some “yellow flags” with Caleb Williams. It would appear that his camp will not subscribe to the concept of rookie, know your place and stay in your lane. There are no doubts about his physical ability, but time will tell what kind of mental and emotional maturity he really has.
RE: I think ALL the posters here are missing the obvious  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/2/2024 10:00 am : link
In comment 16413795 rich in DC said:
Quote:
It’s actually kind of funny to read this thread and how everyone is using this to somehow further their own personal narratives about the player without actually stopping to remember several underlying points.

First, Williams has no agent. A number of people in the media have been speculating for some time that he was going to be the subject of media attacks by teams hoping to drive his draft position down and agents looking to push their clients up. With no agent, he has no one to go attack the story or put their own counter attack out there to protect the client.

Second, people forget that sports media is a relationship business. Kirwan is not immune to that. He gets fed a story enough and he’ll run with it. I have no doubt that there are teams that are turned off by his decision- but most of this is faux outrage designed to fill two months before the draft, as well as to help teams trying to create doubt for the Bears. Remember there are several clubs (including the Giants) who would benefit if the Bears decided Williams will be too much.

Third, to remain productive, Kirwan needs leaks and info. Like most journalists in sports, he is not above carrying someone’s water for them if it gets him the story. This has all the making of a “hit piece” that gets him some favors to call in closer to the draft. Is this one of those stories that sinks a player like the Tunsal pot mask? No- but it advances the agenda of several teams and agents- and Kirwan will be able to circle back in April for better stuff.

Finally, Kirwan is “old school” media. Many of these guys have a LOT of trouble relating to the new generation of player and are legitimately turned off by some of the things they do and the decisions they make. In many ways, when I read the story, I had the meme image of old man waving fist at a cloud in my mind.

Bottom line- this thread has been a fascinating Rorschach test of fan’s thoughts on Williams. however, what is missing in all the strum and fury is the understanding of the likely situation. Instead, it has done exactly what whoever fed Kirwan the story intended- General disparagement of Williams and his character, in hope hope that it either causes the Bears to pass on him or trade out of the pick.


There is truth in much of what you just said. But you are also spinning it to suit one side.

What do we know as FACT? Caleb is already a millionaire several times over. Caleb has refused to hire a professional agent. Caleb has refused to take a medical exam.

There are reports that he was not well liked by teammates at USC. He didn't handle losing well from an emotional perspective (yes, how you conduct yourself in public matters after a loss). He did show up at the Combine with an entourage.

So these things are not subjective. They happened. I think it is safe to say, at the very least, there are some entitlement and emotional issues to consider.

Is Kirwan being used to spread disinformation? Possibly. Possibly not.

But does is seem so out of character based on what we already know?
RE: Jim and Pat  
bw in dc : 3/2/2024 10:01 am : link
In comment 16413828 Bernie said:
Quote:
Are the best listen on NFL radio. Pat has contacts throughout the league and is well tied in. Does he have personal biases? Of course. Having said that, only people who have not been paying attention over the last 2 years would think there are not at least some “yellow flags” with Caleb Williams. It would appear that his camp will not subscribe to the concept of rookie, know your place and stay in your lane. There are no doubts about his physical ability, but time will tell what kind of mental and emotional maturity he really has.


Pat and Jim are tremendous. They really try to keep their program focused on football - strategy, team building (cap/personnel), game review. They aren't doing a show like Russo, Cowherd, Smith, Bayless, etc. It's much dryer.

So, Pat laid out the issues with CW that he thought were problematic and then moved on to interviewing Maye and Tez Walker. In other words, he didn't keep beating the drum to make his comments the theme of the show.

Posters can draw any conclusions they want, but this was far from an agenda thing with Pat.
and BTW  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/2/2024 10:05 am : link
all of these things probably mean jack squat if Williams turns into a superstar AND can handle the pressures of losing and being criticized by the media and fans..

BUT, we have seen all-world talents implode because they can't do the latter. You don't have to go back to Ryan Leaf.
RE: RE: I think ALL the posters here are missing the obvious  
Manhattan : 3/2/2024 10:07 am : link
In comment 16413841 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16413795 rich in DC said:


Quote:


It’s actually kind of funny to read this thread and how everyone is using this to somehow further their own personal narratives about the player without actually stopping to remember several underlying points.

First, Williams has no agent. A number of people in the media have been speculating for some time that he was going to be the subject of media attacks by teams hoping to drive his draft position down and agents looking to push their clients up. With no agent, he has no one to go attack the story or put their own counter attack out there to protect the client.

Second, people forget that sports media is a relationship business. Kirwan is not immune to that. He gets fed a story enough and he’ll run with it. I have no doubt that there are teams that are turned off by his decision- but most of this is faux outrage designed to fill two months before the draft, as well as to help teams trying to create doubt for the Bears. Remember there are several clubs (including the Giants) who would benefit if the Bears decided Williams will be too much.

Third, to remain productive, Kirwan needs leaks and info. Like most journalists in sports, he is not above carrying someone’s water for them if it gets him the story. This has all the making of a “hit piece” that gets him some favors to call in closer to the draft. Is this one of those stories that sinks a player like the Tunsal pot mask? No- but it advances the agenda of several teams and agents- and Kirwan will be able to circle back in April for better stuff.

Finally, Kirwan is “old school” media. Many of these guys have a LOT of trouble relating to the new generation of player and are legitimately turned off by some of the things they do and the decisions they make. In many ways, when I read the story, I had the meme image of old man waving fist at a cloud in my mind.

Bottom line- this thread has been a fascinating Rorschach test of fan’s thoughts on Williams. however, what is missing in all the strum and fury is the understanding of the likely situation. Instead, it has done exactly what whoever fed Kirwan the story intended- General disparagement of Williams and his character, in hope hope that it either causes the Bears to pass on him or trade out of the pick.



There is truth in much of what you just said. But you are also spinning it to suit one side.

What do we know as FACT? Caleb is already a millionaire several times over. Caleb has refused to hire a professional agent. Caleb has refused to take a medical exam.

There are reports that he was not well liked by teammates at USC. He didn't handle losing well from an emotional perspective (yes, how you conduct yourself in public matters after a loss). He did show up at the Combine with an entourage.

So these things are not subjective. They happened. I think it is safe to say, at the very least, there are some entitlement and emotional issues to consider.

Is Kirwan being used to spread disinformation? Possibly. Possibly not.

But does is seem so out of character based on what we already know?


There are no credible reports that Williams was not well liked or respected by teammates. All there is, is conjecture by Twitter warriors regarding interviews and sideline footage where he is not mentioned at all. All reports regarding his leadership, where he is mentioned by name, are glowing. And the backup QB who, it is said, disparaged him, though he isn't mentioned and you have to do some dot connecting to make it about Williams, this same player tweeted that he loves CW and thanks him for helping and supporting him. So the leadership/locker room character issue, is not a data point working against CW.
...  
christian : 3/2/2024 10:13 am : link
Let's remember what all the red flags allegedly indicate -- that Williams has some level emotional immaturity or bad judgement that will compromise his ability to add maximum value to the team that drafts him.

I'd strongly suggest anyone who has read the headlines and think there's smoke, to watch the interview with Florio and Simms. And honestly say that guy seems like he has bad judgement or is emotionally immature.

I'm embarrassed I'm so naive that I didn't understand why he's refusing to do broad medicals.

It's the only leverage he has to control what team picks him. He's only giving access to his body to teams he's willing to play for. This eliminates the chance a team he doesn't want to go from trading up with the Bears.
Manhattan/producer  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/2/2024 10:16 am : link
With all due respect, it's impossible to take you seriously. You've been banned before for shitty posting and abuse. I'm not even sure how your dupe account hasn't already been removed.
RE: ...  
Manhattan : 3/2/2024 10:20 am : link
In comment 16413851 christian said:
Quote:
Let's remember what all the red flags allegedly indicate -- that Williams has some level emotional immaturity or bad judgement that will compromise his ability to add maximum value to the team that drafts him.

I'd strongly suggest anyone who has read the headlines and think there's smoke, to watch the interview with Florio and Simms. And honestly say that guy seems like he has bad judgement or is emotionally immature.

I'm embarrassed I'm so naive that I didn't understand why he's refusing to do broad medicals.

It's the only leverage he has to control what team picks him. He's only giving access to his body to teams he's willing to play for. This eliminates the chance a team he doesn't want to go from trading up with the Bears.


yes. The interview posted here by BW shows a thoughtful kid who appears to be mature beyond his age. Look, Williams rubs some people the wrong way, especially culture warriors. They want him to fail because he doesn't look to them like he will be a good soldier. He doesn't conform to their idea of what a hard-nosed, obedient, leader of men, should be. I don't put a lot of weight to these personality cliches. But maybe he'll be a great artist who can transform a team that way. Well those same critics who think it takes a soldier, don't want artists to succeed.
Manhattan  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/2/2024 10:22 am : link
Yea, that's it.

LOL
...  
christian : 3/2/2024 10:23 am : link
In terms of some of the red flags, I think there are some that are easy to explain away and some that are not.

His draft position is slotted, and his father is a managing partner in an elite athletic training program. He's also already represented by a major marketing firm. The normal responsibilities of an agent - contract negotiations, prepping for measurement activities, and prepping for endorsements are seemingly covered. Hiring an agent seems redundant and costly.

Not taking the medicals is actually quite savvy. As posted above, it's a leverage play to ensure he has some say in where he plays.

I think the biggest question is why was he seemingly not liked by his teammates. Was it simple jealousy that he was already wealthy and not one of the guys, or did he act like he wasn't and exhibit poor leadership?
RE: Manhattan/producer  
BigBlueShock : 3/2/2024 10:35 am : link
In comment 16413852 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
With all due respect, it's impossible to take you seriously. You've been banned before for shitty posting and abuse. I'm not even sure how your dupe account hasn't already been removed.

Oh damn!
RE: RE: ...  
BigBlueShock : 3/2/2024 10:37 am : link
In comment 16413854 Manhattan said:
Quote:
In comment 16413851 christian said:


Quote:


Let's remember what all the red flags allegedly indicate -- that Williams has some level emotional immaturity or bad judgement that will compromise his ability to add maximum value to the team that drafts him.

I'd strongly suggest anyone who has read the headlines and think there's smoke, to watch the interview with Florio and Simms. And honestly say that guy seems like he has bad judgement or is emotionally immature.

I'm embarrassed I'm so naive that I didn't understand why he's refusing to do broad medicals.

It's the only leverage he has to control what team picks him. He's only giving access to his body to teams he's willing to play for. This eliminates the chance a team he doesn't want to go from trading up with the Bears.



yes. The interview posted here by BW shows a thoughtful kid who appears to be mature beyond his age. Look, Williams rubs some people the wrong way, especially culture warriors. They want him to fail because he doesn't look to them like he will be a good soldier. He doesn't conform to their idea of what a hard-nosed, obedient, leader of men, should be. I don't put a lot of weight to these personality cliches. But maybe he'll be a great artist who can transform a team that way. Well those same critics who think it takes a soldier, don't want artists to succeed.

wtf? So now all these red flags, however innocent or not you think they may be, is just Willams being an “artist”? Holy shitballs. You sound like a love struck teenager. Pull your shit together, it’s embarrassing
Two things about this:  
BJacobs The Tiptoe Bandit : 3/2/2024 10:38 am : link
1. The NFL has seen plenty of me first guys and guys with inflated egos come into the league. The NFL is the only game in town and it doesn't matter what your talent or marketability level is- if you don't tow the NFL line you will be out of the league quickly i.e Johnny Manziel (unless.....

2. You play well. Then nobody cares. Performance is king. It was only a few years ago that teams were bending over backwards to fit jagoffs onto their teams who committed all kinds of crimes and other indiscretions. Sure that has changed but if Caleb comes into the league and lights it up nobody is going to care about his missed medical appointment at the Combine.

The problem with Caleb is that he is the first true test of how the NIL has affected the NFL in terms of incoming rookies. It could be a huge shift. Do you want to be the team who pioneers that if it is a disaster?
BigBlueShock  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/2/2024 10:48 am : link
I just had the conversation with my wife about "I don't understand why some posters on BBI form emotional attachments to draft prospects. It's gotten to the point if you mention concerns, people want to bite your head off."

I have no skin in the game with Caleb Williams. If the Giants were to draft him, then I'd root for him. If he goes to the Commanders, I will root again him. Now? I don't care. But I've seen things that make me wonder if he has the temperament for the NFL. Others have had the same concern so it's not outlandish.

Kirwan, who has a fine reputation, says something and the knee-jerk response is to attack the messenger? That's pretty telling.
bottom line  
The Jake : 3/2/2024 10:48 am : link
is that the Giants’ recent hit rate on 1st round draft picks is abysmal. why? because we choose players for the wrong reasons. we pick players to fill holes left by a prior GM’s ineptitude or because a GM falls in love with a guy’s physique or because he was a team captain six times or because we are still building around a guy who can’t play or because some other team outsmarted us. end result is that WE SUCK AT DRAFTING college players. this team will never be fixed until we get better.

we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.

shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.
RE: bottom line  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/2/2024 10:51 am : link
In comment 16413887 The Jake said:
Quote:
is that the Giants’ recent hit rate on 1st round draft picks is abysmal. why? because we choose players for the wrong reasons. we pick players to fill holes left by a prior GM’s ineptitude or because a GM falls in love with a guy’s physique or because he was a team captain six times or because we are still building around a guy who can’t play or because some other team outsmarted us. end result is that WE SUCK AT DRAFTING college players. this team will never be fixed until we get better.

we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.

shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.


Part of the abysmal hit rate is because the Giants ignore character concerns with Deandre Baker and Kadarious Toney.
RE: RE: bottom line  
Mbavaro : 3/2/2024 10:53 am : link
In comment 16413889 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16413887 The Jake said:


Quote:


is that the Giants’ recent hit rate on 1st round draft picks is abysmal. why? because we choose players for the wrong reasons. we pick players to fill holes left by a prior GM’s ineptitude or because a GM falls in love with a guy’s physique or because he was a team captain six times or because we are still building around a guy who can’t play or because some other team outsmarted us. end result is that WE SUCK AT DRAFTING college players. this team will never be fixed until we get better.

we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.

shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.



Part of the abysmal hit rate is because the Giants ignore character concerns with Deandre Baker and Kadarious Toney.



You can certainly make that argument for the prior regime

For the current leadership…..TBD
 
christian : 3/2/2024 10:57 am : link
I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.

Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.
RE: …  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 3/2/2024 11:00 am : link
In comment 16413904 christian said:
Quote:
I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.

Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.


There is truth in this as well.

However, NFL franchise have to make decisions based on the info they acquire. The Combine and the Pro Days and the 30 visits were only established so teams can acquire this information.

When the prospect refuses to provide that info, the teams are understandably going to react negatively.

I would.
not signing with an agent and skipping the combine medicals  
Eric on Li : 3/2/2024 11:13 am : link
are examples of bad decision making.

marvin harrison jr or position players skipping drills is one thing and it rarely gets held against them. evan neal was still a top pick and rated as OT1 through his draft process.

QBs displaying bad decision making is a different category of concern that bleeds into part of what they are drafted to be - leaders who take even the non-glamourous parts of the job behind the scenes seriously.

people forget a big reason lamar jackson was passed over, including by his own team baltimore who drafted hayden freaknig hurst over him 7 picks before they took lamar, was because he too had some contract stuff and combine stuff. just like there was animosity in his contract extension discussions for over a year. when it comes to qbs teams are evaluating the off field far more than other positions (duh) and that's because lots of guys like haskins and wilson bust straight out because of immaturity.
He sounds like  
3rdnlong : 3/2/2024 11:16 am : link
Bo Callahan
RE: …  
bw in dc : 3/2/2024 11:20 am : link
In comment 16413904 christian said:
Quote:
I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.

Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.


You call it leverage. Fine. I'm leaning towards calling it the "jerk-off factor". Is it really worth it to establish some precedent by not doing medicals? Or interviews?

You listen/read to any NFL executive and they will tell you the most important aspects to the Combine are the medicals and interviews. Teams want to get to know you.

Is it that taxing to talk and get checked-out when the league is setting this opportunity so up for everyone to meet at one site? JFC, be a grown-up and check the simple boxes...

It just reeks of entitlement.

RE: BigBlueShock  
BigBlueShock : 3/2/2024 11:23 am : link
In comment 16413886 Eric from BBI said:
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I just had the conversation with my wife about "I don't understand why some posters on BBI form emotional attachments to draft prospects. It's gotten to the point if you mention concerns, people want to bite your head off."

I have no skin in the game with Caleb Williams. If the Giants were to draft him, then I'd root for him. If he goes to the Commanders, I will root again him. Now? I don't care. But I've seen things that make me wonder if he has the temperament for the NFL. Others have had the same concern so it's not outlandish.

Kirwan, who has a fine reputation, says something and the knee-jerk response is to attack the messenger? That's pretty telling.

This is exactly where I’m at. I’ve wanted to trade up for Williams since the season ended. And I still hope they do. I think he’s so talented that I’d be willing to take a chance on him. But you have to be a complete moron to just completely dismiss all of the noise that’s been going on around the guy. It’s up to the teams to do a deeper dive and come to a conclusion on whether or not any of this will be an issue moving forward, As you said, I just don’t understand how people can immediately dismiss any mention of potentially negative news and also go to great lengths to discredit the messengers delivering that stuff simply because they like a player and think he’s talented. It’s like dating a hot chick and all your friends keep telling you she’s cheating on you but you don’t want it to be true so you rip your friends apart instead of being open to the possibility
RE: …  
BrettNYG10 : 3/2/2024 11:35 am : link
In comment 16413904 christian said:
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I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.

Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.


This is exactly how I feel--players should use their leverage. I have always thought more players should pull Eli's if they can.

I also agree with your above post on Williams--this stuff seems like noise, but the teammates potentially not liking him bothers me.
 
christian : 3/2/2024 11:39 am : link
I think the agent thing for Williams is completely immaterial.

If he has the resources to accomplish all of the duties of an agent, and they are being accomplished a la carte, adhering to the conventional structure isn't necessary.

The construct is changing. When you've been operating a 10M NIL business, you're coming from a completely different place than a legacy college athlete.

The business is simply changing. And the young men are changing too. They are more savvy and cognizant of the business side.
...  
christian : 3/2/2024 11:41 am : link
In comment 16413936 BigBlueShock said:
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It’s like dating a hot chick and all your friends keep telling you she’s cheating on you but you don’t want it to be true so you rip your friends apart instead of being open to the possibility


There also stands a chance your friends simply don't understand why a chick that hot would date you and are unnecessarily negative because of the ignorance, right?
RE: ...  
BigBlueShock : 3/2/2024 11:50 am : link
In comment 16413949 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16413936 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


It’s like dating a hot chick and all your friends keep telling you she’s cheating on you but you don’t want it to be true so you rip your friends apart instead of being open to the possibility



There also stands a chance your friends simply don't understand why a chick that hot would date you and are unnecessarily negative because of the ignorance, right?

Well, duh. That’s the entire point. You can just assume your friends are jealous and plant your head firmly in the sand because you don’t like what they are telling you. Or you could keep an open mind and consider the fact that there just may be something to it. In the end, there may not be anything to it. But there also may be. Personally, I’d want to do my due diligence before determining what is true or not. Regardless of how hot she is. Seems like the most rational way to go to me. But hey, feel free to cram your noggin into the sand and just assume your friends are lying if that’s your thing. You did you
RE: RE: …  
GiantGrit : 3/2/2024 11:51 am : link
In comment 16413931 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16413904 christian said:


Quote:


I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.

Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.



You call it leverage. Fine. I'm leaning towards calling it the "jerk-off factor". Is it really worth it to establish some precedent by not doing medicals? Or interviews?

You listen/read to any NFL executive and they will tell you the most important aspects to the Combine are the medicals and interviews. Teams want to get to know you.

Is it that taxing to talk and get checked-out when the league is setting this opportunity so up for everyone to meet at one site? JFC, be a grown-up and check the simple boxes...

It just reeks of entitlement.


+ 1
RE: RE: RE: bottom line  
ThomasG : 3/2/2024 12:04 pm : link
In comment 16413896 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16413889 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 16413887 The Jake said:


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is that the Giants’ recent hit rate on 1st round draft picks is abysmal. why? because we choose players for the wrong reasons. we pick players to fill holes left by a prior GM’s ineptitude or because a GM falls in love with a guy’s physique or because he was a team captain six times or because we are still building around a guy who can’t play or because some other team outsmarted us. end result is that WE SUCK AT DRAFTING college players. this team will never be fixed until we get better.

we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.

shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.



Part of the abysmal hit rate is because the Giants ignore character concerns with Deandre Baker and Kadarious Toney.




You can certainly make that argument for the prior regime

For the current leadership…..TBD


Yes, probably true. Nevertheless, let's make sure the proper support is noted for the current regime in all cases.
...  
christian : 3/2/2024 12:07 pm : link
In comment 16413964 BigBlueShock said:
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I’d want to do my due diligence before determining what is true or not. Regardless of how hot she is. Seems like the most rational way to go to me. But hey, feel free to cram your noggin into the sand and just assume your friends are lying if that’s your thing. You did you


I'm a little lost in the metaphor here.

I'm sure Chicago and any other team interested in trading up to draft him is putting in all of the requisite work to assess his character and decision making rationale.

In terms of being a fan and guessing whether he's going to make it or not, I'm more interested in listening to him explain his decisions. That seems way more instructive than what others say about him.
...  
christian : 3/2/2024 12:11 pm : link
In comment 16413931It just reeks of entitlement.[/quote]

He's definitely not playing by the old rules, and is certainly operating like he's entitled. Whether that portends some negative outcome, or is a savvy negotiation skill is to be determined in my view.

I'd rather a young man use the system to navigate where he wants to play, than some of the previous ways players including Manning have operated.
He has a personality of Alex Rodriguez  
gtt350 : 3/2/2024 12:13 pm : link
.
RE: Love the BBI Qb gurus dismissing  
JohnG in Albany : 3/2/2024 1:07 pm : link
In comment 16413329 LauderdaleMatty said:
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PK. Yeah. Go back and look at Eric’s thread on QBs.

Williams may be an all pro or a total bust. It the keyboard warriors here are awesome. You all are definitely smarter than anyone who disagrees w you


It's a tradition unlike any other. *grin*
Every prospect has some issues  
Tuckrule : 3/2/2024 10:03 pm : link
Red flags are there but the talent trumps everything. Does Kyler Murray ring a bell? CW is far and away the most talented QB in this draft. He will go 1. All this talk is nonsense. Listen to any scout who watches the tape and he’s elite at every single aspect of playing the position. Arm talent is elite. Does not get any better. Mobility elite. Off script plays elite. All this behind a dog shit offensive line with little talent at the skill position. This thread is just a bunch of guys who hate his character because of shit you read. Your not sitting in on meetings or have been in the same room as this guy. He is going number 1 and you can set that in stone. Such ridiculous speculation. The same people who after the semi finals game thought penix is going 1. It’s just ludicrous
RE: Has Daniels surpassed Maye as QB2?  
Matt M. : 3/2/2024 10:53 pm : link
In comment 16413205 Sean said:
Quote:
Maybe the Giants can get Maye after all. I know that isn't the intention of the thread, but noticed Daniels was called out to go 1, not Maye.
I would be thrilled with that. I also am thinking more and more McCarthy wouldn't make me upset either.
Similar concerns have been leveled against Kayvon  
Mike from SI : 3/2/2024 11:30 pm : link
and he's been fine.

The question is will he actually focus 100% on being a starting NFL QB like it's the most important thing in the world. Guys who do not do so, don't last long. See, e.g., Johnny Football, Josh Rosen, Haskins (RIP).

I have no idea based on snippets here and there what his attitude will be. It's up to the Giants and the other QB needy teams to figure it out.
RE: and BTW  
Matt M. : 3/3/2024 3:39 am : link
In comment 16413846 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
all of these things probably mean jack squat if Williams turns into a superstar AND can handle the pressures of losing and being criticized by the media and fans..

BUT, we have seen all-world talents implode because they can't do the latter. You don't have to go back to Ryan Leaf.
Exactly and with his behavior and decisions in the last couple of weeks, in combination with his draft position and most likely whoever is taking him is relying on him to turn around the team, he will have a huge bullseye on his back. If he isn't lights out, he will be roasted.
RE: RE: …  
Matt M. : 3/3/2024 3:43 am : link
In comment 16413931 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16413904 christian said:


Quote:


I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.

Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.



You call it leverage. Fine. I'm leaning towards calling it the "jerk-off factor". Is it really worth it to establish some precedent by not doing medicals? Or interviews?

You listen/read to any NFL executive and they will tell you the most important aspects to the Combine are the medicals and interviews. Teams want to get to know you.

Is it that taxing to talk and get checked-out when the league is setting this opportunity so up for everyone to meet at one site? JFC, be a grown-up and check the simple boxes...

It just reeks of entitlement.
Exactly.
Any one of his decisions in a bubble, is not a huge deal  
Matt M. : 3/3/2024 3:49 am : link
They would make you question him, but not a deal breaker. But, the whole lot of them together raise enough questions about his decision making, his temperament, his ability to handle media and criticism, etc.

Not hiring an agent, for example, doesn't seem like a wise decision on the surface. But, on it's own, not huge given the basic rookie deal for a #1 pick is settled already. But, then we hear that is exactly why he didn't hire one. Supposedly the y interviewed agents making their ability to find a loophole in the CBA around the draft. They didn't like the consistent answer they received that it wasn't possible. So, their response is don't hire an agent. a ton of red flags here.

If he doesn't like Chicago, he should just be a dick like Elway and Eli. They were both assholes and both wrong. But, that decision worked out for both. But, he takes this to a whole other level that the vitriol directed at him is bound to be many times worse.
RE: Any one of his decisions in a bubble, is not a huge deal  
Matt M. : 3/3/2024 3:52 am : link
In comment 16414825 Matt M. said:
Quote:
They would make you question him, but not a deal breaker. But, the whole lot of them together raise enough questions about his decision making, his temperament, his ability to handle media and criticism, etc.

Not hiring an agent, for example, doesn't seem like a wise decision on the surface. But, on it's own, not huge given the basic rookie deal for a #1 pick is settled already. But, then we hear that is exactly why he didn't hire one. Supposedly the y interviewed agents making their ability to find a loophole in the CBA around the draft. They didn't like the consistent answer they received that it wasn't possible. So, their response is don't hire an agent. a ton of red flags here.

If he doesn't like Chicago, he should just be a dick like Elway and Eli. They were both assholes and both wrong. But, that decision worked out for both. But, he takes this to a whole other level that the vitriol directed at him is bound to be many times worse.
Further, not taking the medical, by itself, seems stupid, but you can get past it. But, you have all the other stuff. Then, his explanation is moronic and a big turn off. Saying he doesn't want teams who can't draft him to have his medical information is stupid. He is a consensus #1 pick. Teams outside of a realistic pick can and may want to trade up for him. His decisions are bad. The reasonsing behind them is just douchey.
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