I'm a big fan of Pat on NFL Radio and he's not a guy who says things for shock value.
But CW's actions at the Combine really troubled him. I'm paraphrasing, but here is the gist:
- The comments about Chicago sound rehearsed and phony. And other GMs felt similarly.
- Not doing the medical is a red flag and reflects on CW's decision making in general. Just not acting like a grown up.
- Comes off too much like he plays an individual sport, not a team sport.
- Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing because it could change his perspective about what's expected of him as an NFL QB.
- Thinks CW's actions here could create an opening for Daniels to get even closer to the #1 pick.
Just some more perspective to consider from a guy with 30+ years of NFL experience...
I will say this, I don't disagree with 32 teams having access to my medical information. However, I think there is a better way to approach this then just kind of doing it out of the blue and making it look like you are trying to dictate how things will be done in a league you have no experience in. It just isn't a good look. You also have no idea what teams would want to trade up for you.
Plus it seems he often plays off script when he doesn't have to.
But I am neither a psychologist or an NFL scout, so these are "grain of salt" opinions on my part.
He also has a lot of connections.
Plus it seems he often plays off script when he doesn't have to.
But I am neither a psychologist or an NFL scout, so these are "grain of salt" opinions on my part.
Don't forget all the fumbles, the fact he holds the ball longer than any other QB, and he hasn't measured in yet. Is he over 6' and if so by how much. Still saying that he makes plays other can't. He is still my QB1 with Daniels a close #2.
Pat and Miller interviewed Maye. Maye was really good answering questions from Miller who played QB in the NFL. Pat said after Maye left that he's a kid he wouldn't hesitate to take 1,2,3...wherever he could get him.
LEt Williams drop. We take him at 6 and everyone lives happily ever after.
It certainly is that time of year. *grin*
I don’t see the the issue with the medicals, he said he’d do them with teams that bring him in for workouts. That’s how it happens with the NBA.
He would scare me if I am the Bears. The Bears can't go Maye (the look there after Trubisky would be hard for fans to swallow and any bad play will be magnified to the nth degree) so I could see a Daniels #1 move happening here.
2018 People thought for sure the Browns would go Darnold, Rosen or Barkley before Mayfield came out of nowhere for the #1 spot. I could see Williams not going 1 (or at least not to the Bears) and Daniels going to the Bears.
Back to Williams himself, the issue here is image. He comes off as a bit demanding, as a me me sort of guy (no true proof of that yet) and he comes off as a guy who thinks college play equates to NFL clout. He had a pretty lucrative NIL deal, so he has money and could be a disruption to the whole draft process.
I still think he will be a fine NFL QB but I am not sure I would feel 100% solid in risking my franchise on him unless I was prepared to go all in on the guy and understand that what "he" wants he will need to get. The coaching staff would have to know they had to make the guy happy- it would have to be an expectation for the staff by the GM and Ownership.
Maye is going to end up being the best QB out out of this group.
I don’t see the the issue with the medicals, he said he’d do them with teams that bring him in for workouts. That’s how it happens with the NBA.
Take the comments however you want, but Pat is very bright and accepts the landscape of the changing NFL and college games.
I will say this, I don't disagree with 32 teams having access to my medical information. However, I think there is a better way to approach this then just kind of doing it out of the blue and making it look like you are trying to dictate how things will be done in a league you have no experience in. It just isn't a good look. You also have no idea what teams would want to trade up for you.
You wouldn't want 32 teams to have your medical info? What if the Super Bowl champs wanted to trade up and draft you but they weren't able to schedule a personal visit in time to make a deal and they have no medicals on you? They ain't gonna take the risk.
He's being foolish and immature. He's trying to dictate the rules to potential employers. Employers who will be investing millions of dollar in him. This isn't college anymore. He needs to grow up. And that is where the NIL money concern comes in. He hasn't had to grow up and listen to anyone. He has been able to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. He just reeks of a guy who is going to try to dictate things to his team and coaches, rather than the other way around. More and more I get the feeling he is too immature and feels too entitled to make a difference soon, and he might never be able to hack it in any city with tough media. He is acting more entitle than Rodgers - and that's damn near impossible to do.
I try to listen every day. From the game on the field to the game off, I find myself constantly getting educated by his insights.
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QBs in a bad way. Again, draft picks are opportunities to invest. Are you going to invest in someone that you don't trust? Didn't the NFLPA send out something that said do not negotiate with players that don't have agents or some shit a few years ago? I cannot imagine the owners and GMs like when players don't have agents. Again, agents do way more than negotiate contracts.
I will say this, I don't disagree with 32 teams having access to my medical information. However, I think there is a better way to approach this then just kind of doing it out of the blue and making it look like you are trying to dictate how things will be done in a league you have no experience in. It just isn't a good look. You also have no idea what teams would want to trade up for you.
You wouldn't want 32 teams to have your medical info? What if the Super Bowl champs wanted to trade up and draft you but they weren't able to schedule a personal visit in time to make a deal and they have no medicals on you? They ain't gonna take the risk.
He's being foolish and immature. He's trying to dictate the rules to potential employers. Employers who will be investing millions of dollar in him. This isn't college anymore. He needs to grow up. And that is where the NIL money concern comes in. He hasn't had to grow up and listen to anyone. He has been able to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. He just reeks of a guy who is going to try to dictate things to his team and coaches, rather than the other way around. More and more I get the feeling he is too immature and feels too entitled to make a difference soon, and he might never be able to hack it in any city with tough media. He is acting more entitle than Rodgers - and that's damn near impossible to do.
So you obviously didn't read my whole post.
Great point. A lot of his teammates have publicly gone to bat for Fields. Whoever they bring in needs to win those folks over (which will mostly happen on the field, but has to start in the locker room).
He would scare me if I am the Bears. The Bears can't go Maye (the look there after Trubisky would be hard for fans to swallow and any bad play will be magnified to the nth degree) so I could see a Daniels #1 move happening here.
2018 People thought for sure the Browns would go Darnold, Rosen or Barkley before Mayfield came out of nowhere for the #1 spot. I could see Williams not going 1 (or at least not to the Bears) and Daniels going to the Bears.
Back to Williams himself, the issue here is image. He comes off as a bit demanding, as a me me sort of guy (no true proof of that yet) and he comes off as a guy who thinks college play equates to NFL clout. He had a pretty lucrative NIL deal, so he has money and could be a disruption to the whole draft process.
I still think he will be a fine NFL QB but I am not sure I would feel 100% solid in risking my franchise on him unless I was prepared to go all in on the guy and understand that what "he" wants he will need to get. The coaching staff would have to know they had to make the guy happy- it would have to be an expectation for the staff by the GM and Ownership.
Maye is going to end up being the best QB out out of this group.
I was never on the Williams bandwagon and YES I agree that Maye will be the best of the bunch.
Coached up by who? Does he have an agent?
in this draft. No one is telling the truth
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is fairly easy to see. He is being compared to Mahomes in style of play, by folks who watch and scout football BUT, Williams is coming in LIKE he is on Mahomes level already with expectations, actions and presence without one single down of NFL production to prove it.
He would scare me if I am the Bears. The Bears can't go Maye (the look there after Trubisky would be hard for fans to swallow and any bad play will be magnified to the nth degree) so I could see a Daniels #1 move happening here.
2018 People thought for sure the Browns would go Darnold, Rosen or Barkley before Mayfield came out of nowhere for the #1 spot. I could see Williams not going 1 (or at least not to the Bears) and Daniels going to the Bears.
Back to Williams himself, the issue here is image. He comes off as a bit demanding, as a me me sort of guy (no true proof of that yet) and he comes off as a guy who thinks college play equates to NFL clout. He had a pretty lucrative NIL deal, so he has money and could be a disruption to the whole draft process.
I still think he will be a fine NFL QB but I am not sure I would feel 100% solid in risking my franchise on him unless I was prepared to go all in on the guy and understand that what "he" wants he will need to get. The coaching staff would have to know they had to make the guy happy- it would have to be an expectation for the staff by the GM and Ownership.
Maye is going to end up being the best QB out out of this group.
I was never on the Williams bandwagon and YES I agree that Maye will be the best of the bunch.
Maye is most likely getting a lot of coaching on how to go thru the process. His dad was also a QB at UNC and his brother was a big time BB guy. They know the drill.
I think MHj is even more weird... blew off the combine and team meetings? Doesn't plan on working out at all?
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In comment 16413239 jvm52106 said:
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is fairly easy to see. He is being compared to Mahomes in style of play, by folks who watch and scout football BUT, Williams is coming in LIKE he is on Mahomes level already with expectations, actions and presence without one single down of NFL production to prove it.
He would scare me if I am the Bears. The Bears can't go Maye (the look there after Trubisky would be hard for fans to swallow and any bad play will be magnified to the nth degree) so I could see a Daniels #1 move happening here.
2018 People thought for sure the Browns would go Darnold, Rosen or Barkley before Mayfield came out of nowhere for the #1 spot. I could see Williams not going 1 (or at least not to the Bears) and Daniels going to the Bears.
Back to Williams himself, the issue here is image. He comes off as a bit demanding, as a me me sort of guy (no true proof of that yet) and he comes off as a guy who thinks college play equates to NFL clout. He had a pretty lucrative NIL deal, so he has money and could be a disruption to the whole draft process.
I still think he will be a fine NFL QB but I am not sure I would feel 100% solid in risking my franchise on him unless I was prepared to go all in on the guy and understand that what "he" wants he will need to get. The coaching staff would have to know they had to make the guy happy- it would have to be an expectation for the staff by the GM and Ownership.
Maye is going to end up being the best QB out out of this group.
I was never on the Williams bandwagon and YES I agree that Maye will be the best of the bunch.
Maye is most likely getting a lot of coaching on how to go thru the process. His dad was also a QB at UNC and his brother was a big time BB guy. They know the drill.
I think JD. JJM and Maye will all be good pros given the right situations.
Caleb Williams will be a huge headache whoever drafts him
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
I think MHj is even more weird... blew off the combine and team meetings? Doesn't plan on working out at all?
No he didn't blow off the combine or team meetings. He didn't show to his media availability
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
I think MHj is even more weird... blew off the combine and team meetings? Doesn't plan on working out at all?
No he didn't blow off the combine or team meetings. He didn't show to his media availability
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
I do. I was also a teenager then and couldn’t care less what happened 20 years ago, in a different league and when I viewed things differently. Am I supposed to accept anything Caleb Williams does and is he beyond criticism just because Eli Manning was a Giant and I’m a Giants fan?
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
How is this the same situation? Marty Schottenheimer flat out told Eli not to go to the Chargers. Players have very little leverage in their career. Him not wanting to play for a specific team is completely different than this situation. Elway dod the same thing as Eli.
Kingsbury is in agreement to be the OC for the Raiders under Antonio Pierce, but all the sudden pulls back and takes a job under Dan Quinn with the Commanders.
The Commanders have the number 2 pick.
All of the sudden the presumed number one pick, who Kingsbury coached last season, isn't showing up for medicals and interviews at the combine. He also has no agent.
Something just doesn't sit right when you put all of this together.
Caleb Williams will be a huge headache whoever drafts him
Before the combine, CW was a lock to go #1.
Tell me what he could've done at the combine to improve his draft status?
This reminds me of a few weeks ago when Stephen A and others were complaining about how NBA players don't take the all star game serious anymore. Think about how stupid you sound to complain that I don't take a pick up game serious enough.
Think about how silly it sounds that CW won't run a 40 yard dash for teams
Caleb Williams will be a huge headache whoever drafts him
I'm not a fan of Bo Nix, but I agree CW seems very questionable for on the field and off the field reasons.
Give me JD, JJM or DM in round 1 plz thx.
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In comment 16413273 UConn4523 said:
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
I think MHj is even more weird... blew off the combine and team meetings? Doesn't plan on working out at all?
No he didn't blow off the combine or team meetings. He didn't show to his media availability
Oh I read that wrong then... that is good to hear. I was like WTH is he thinking.
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In comment 16413273 UConn4523 said:
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
How is this the same situation? Marty Schottenheimer flat out told Eli not to go to the Chargers. Players have very little leverage in their career. Him not wanting to play for a specific team is completely different than this situation. Elway dod the same thing as Eli.
What is this about Schottenheimer telling Eli? I don't remember this.
Regardless, Kirwan is usually plugged in. A lot of red flags with Caleb. That said, I still think he goes one to Chicago, Haha.
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In comment 16413273 UConn4523 said:
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
How is this the same situation? Marty Schottenheimer flat out told Eli not to go to the Chargers. Players have very little leverage in their career. Him not wanting to play for a specific team is completely different than this situation. Elway dod the same thing as Eli.
Cause....
They are worried that because CW already has money, he won't take his NFL career serious.
Eli was rich coming into the league, right (even tho the money was earned by his dad and brother, I guarantee he was sitting on a couple million already)
Did Eli take his NFL career serious?
Eli was on his high horse when he said he didn't wanna be drafted by the Chargers. And then pouted when they selected him.
So don't criticize CW for not wanting to run a 40, when our own beloved did worse on draft night
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In comment 16413295 riceneggs said:
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In comment 16413273 UConn4523 said:
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
How is this the same situation? Marty Schottenheimer flat out told Eli not to go to the Chargers. Players have very little leverage in their career. Him not wanting to play for a specific team is completely different than this situation. Elway dod the same thing as Eli.
What is this about Schottenheimer telling Eli? I don't remember this.
Eli didn’t want a career like Archie where he got beat up as the only good player on a bad team and someone was telling him that the Spanos family was toxic. The only one with direct access who would also have had a relationship with the Manning family was Marty.
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I think Bo nix will be the best QB in this draft
Caleb Williams will be a huge headache whoever drafts him
Before the combine, CW was a lock to go #1.
Tell me what he could've done at the combine to improve his draft status?
This reminds me of a few weeks ago when Stephen A and others were complaining about how NBA players don't take the all star game serious anymore. Think about how stupid you sound to complain that I don't take a pick up game serious enough.
Think about how silly it sounds that CW won't run a 40 yard dash for teams
Again, it’s not 1 thing with this guy, it appears to be everything. Why is it so surprising to you that people are starting to raise questions and concerns?
- Not doing the medical is a red flag and reflects on CW's decision making in general. Just not acting like a grown up - I really don't understand why this matters? For example the Chiefs (Chargers/Texans/49ers) aren't taking you. Why waste their time or your time with it? The teams that are going to draft him will have his medical records. This shit happens all the time in the NBA and it isn't a problem.
- Comes off too much like he plays an individual sport, not a team sport - Yeah he's cocky. So is just about every great player of all time
- Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing because it could change his perspective about what's expected of him as an NFL QB - Concerned about what? Him having money? Drake Maye & Jayden Daniels have made plenty of NIL money as well. They will get even more before they play a snap in the NFL. I actually think it's a positive that he's gotten paid. A lot of players get paid and mail it in. He hasn't done that. So not sure why it would be a worry in the NFL. He said today he's not worried about money or jewelry. Nothing we've seen from him suggests he is.
- Thinks CW's actions here could create an opening for Daniels to get even closer to the #1 pick - I can't see anyway he doesn't go #1. It might not be to the Bears, but I think he's going to go #1 overall
Williams team likely is not thrilled to be going to Chicago. Being obnoxious would be a good play, considering Fields is very popular with the Chicago fans and his team mates.
He may be looking at a team like the Raiders, who have a lot of pieces in place, and at #13 aren't that far away. I could see the Raiders putting a package together of draft choices and players that Chicago might find attractive.
Before the combine, CW was a lock to go #1.
Tell me what he could've done at the combine to improve his draft status?
He would scare me if I am the Bears. The Bears can't go Maye (the look there after Trubisky would be hard for fans to swallow and any bad play will be magnified to the nth degree) so I could see a Daniels #1 move happening here.
2018 People thought for sure the Browns would go Darnold, Rosen or Barkley before Mayfield came out of nowhere for the #1 spot. I could see Williams not going 1 (or at least not to the Bears) and Daniels going to the Bears.
Back to Williams himself, the issue here is image. He comes off as a bit demanding, as a me me sort of guy (no true proof of that yet) and he comes off as a guy who thinks college play equates to NFL clout. He had a pretty lucrative NIL deal, so he has money and could be a disruption to the whole draft process.
I still think he will be a fine NFL QB but I am not sure I would feel 100% solid in risking my franchise on him unless I was prepared to go all in on the guy and understand that what "he" wants he will need to get. The coaching staff would have to know they had to make the guy happy- it would have to be an expectation for the staff by the GM and Ownership.
Maye is going to end up being the best QB out out of this group.
Not a snowball's chance in hell would I cater to that.
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In comment 16413295 riceneggs said:
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In comment 16413273 UConn4523 said:
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
How is this the same situation? Marty Schottenheimer flat out told Eli not to go to the Chargers. Players have very little leverage in their career. Him not wanting to play for a specific team is completely different than this situation. Elway dod the same thing as Eli.
What is this about Schottenheimer telling Eli? I don't remember this.
From my memory, Schottenheimer and Archie Manning were friends. Apparently, Schottenheimer told Eli how poorly run the franchise is and he didn't want to go there. We say it with AJ Smith. I very clearly remember them fucking with Rivers. They still had Brees at the time. People were all over Rivers for not signing on time and getting to camp. It later came out that the way Smith structured the deal was he only reached big incentives if he made the pro bowl or suoer bowl in 2 of his first 3 years, then 3 of his first 4 years, etc. It was ridiculous. Rivers was made out to be the bad guy when it wasn't him. Schottenheimer warned Eli about the organization. Eli made the decision himself to not want to go there.
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Before the combine, CW was a lock to go #1.
Tell me what he could've done at the combine to improve his draft status?
He was never a lock. And he's even less of a lock now.
He's as close to a lock to go #1 as you can get. Right up there with Andrew Luck & Trevor Lawrence.
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In comment 16413291 Earl the goat said:
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I think Bo nix will be the best QB in this draft
Caleb Williams will be a huge headache whoever drafts him
Before the combine, CW was a lock to go #1.
Tell me what he could've done at the combine to improve his draft status?
This reminds me of a few weeks ago when Stephen A and others were complaining about how NBA players don't take the all star game serious anymore. Think about how stupid you sound to complain that I don't take a pick up game serious enough.
Think about how silly it sounds that CW won't run a 40 yard dash for teams
Again, it’s not 1 thing with this guy, it appears to be everything. Why is it so surprising to you that people are starting to raise questions and concerns?
I'm not surprised cause that's how society is.
I just can't name one "bad" thing he's done. He doing things differently, true. But why does it have to be "ahhh, that's a red flag, followed by an assassination of his character"
From what I've seen, he's interviewed well and answered questions honestly
Williams may be an all pro or a total bust. It the keyboard warriors here are awesome. You all are definitely smarter than anyone who disagrees w you
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In comment 16413295 riceneggs said:
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In comment 16413273 UConn4523 said:
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I’ve never seen anything like it. When people use the term “unlikable” I usually scoff at it but it fits him perfectly.
Do you not remember how Eli Manning entered the NFL.
How is this the same situation? Marty Schottenheimer flat out told Eli not to go to the Chargers. Players have very little leverage in their career. Him not wanting to play for a specific team is completely different than this situation. Elway dod the same thing as Eli.
Cause....
They are worried that because CW already has money, he won't take his NFL career serious.
Eli was rich coming into the league, right (even tho the money was earned by his dad and brother, I guarantee he was sitting on a couple million already)
Did Eli take his NFL career serious?
Eli was on his high horse when he said he didn't wanna be drafted by the Chargers. And then pouted when they selected him.
So don't criticize CW for not wanting to run a 40, when our own beloved did worse on draft night
Ok, you need to step back from the keyboard. This is ridiculous. You think this is over not wanting to run a 40? Eli has money because his dad does? Please stop.
Ideally, I hope Washington trades up to first overall with the Bears, gives up a "King's Ransom" in order to do so, and Williams is a huge bust for them.
- Not doing the medical is a red flag and reflects on CW's decision making in general. Just not acting like a grown up - I really don't understand why this matters? For example the Chiefs (Chargers/Texans/49ers) aren't taking you. Why waste their time or your time with it? The teams that are going to draft him will have his medical records. This shit happens all the time in the NBA and it isn't a problem.
- Comes off too much like he plays an individual sport, not a team sport - Yeah he's cocky. So is just about every great player of all time
- Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing because it could change his perspective about what's expected of him as an NFL QB - Concerned about what? Him having money? Drake Maye & Jayden Daniels have made plenty of NIL money as well. They will get even more before they play a snap in the NFL. I actually think it's a positive that he's gotten paid. A lot of players get paid and mail it in. He hasn't done that. So not sure why it would be a worry in the NFL. He said today he's not worried about money or jewelry. Nothing we've seen from him suggests he is.
- Thinks CW's actions here could create an opening for Daniels to get even closer to the #1 pick - I can't see anyway he doesn't go #1. It might not be to the Bears, but I think he's going to go #1 overall
Big Rick, how is doing medicals as the combine wasting any team's time? There are independent doctors there performing the medicals and giving the results to all the teams. He isn't meeting with 32 doctors at the combine. Am I wrong?
- Not doing the medical is a red flag and reflects on CW's decision making in general. Just not acting like a grown up - I really don't understand why this matters? For example the Chiefs (Chargers/Texans/49ers) aren't taking you. Why waste their time or your time with it? The teams that are going to draft him will have his medical records. This shit happens all the time in the NBA and it isn't a problem.
- Comes off too much like he plays an individual sport, not a team sport - Yeah he's cocky. So is just about every great player of all time
- Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing because it could change his perspective about what's expected of him as an NFL QB - Concerned about what? Him having money? Drake Maye & Jayden Daniels have made plenty of NIL money as well. They will get even more before they play a snap in the NFL. I actually think it's a positive that he's gotten paid. A lot of players get paid and mail it in. He hasn't done that. So not sure why it would be a worry in the NFL. He said today he's not worried about money or jewelry. Nothing we've seen from him suggests he is.
- Thinks CW's actions here could create an opening for Daniels to get even closer to the #1 pick - I can't see anyway he doesn't go #1. It might not be to the Bears, but I think he's going to go #1 overall
"And you better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone, for the times they are a changing..."
I just can't name one "bad" thing he's done.
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The comments about Chicago sound rehearsed and phony. And other GMs felt similarly - They probably are rehearsed. These guys have people coaching them up for the combine. Who cares? Outside of the Bears nobody should
- Not doing the medical is a red flag and reflects on CW's decision making in general. Just not acting like a grown up - I really don't understand why this matters? For example the Chiefs (Chargers/Texans/49ers) aren't taking you. Why waste their time or your time with it? The teams that are going to draft him will have his medical records. This shit happens all the time in the NBA and it isn't a problem.
- Comes off too much like he plays an individual sport, not a team sport - Yeah he's cocky. So is just about every great player of all time
- Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing because it could change his perspective about what's expected of him as an NFL QB - Concerned about what? Him having money? Drake Maye & Jayden Daniels have made plenty of NIL money as well. They will get even more before they play a snap in the NFL. I actually think it's a positive that he's gotten paid. A lot of players get paid and mail it in. He hasn't done that. So not sure why it would be a worry in the NFL. He said today he's not worried about money or jewelry. Nothing we've seen from him suggests he is.
- Thinks CW's actions here could create an opening for Daniels to get even closer to the #1 pick - I can't see anyway he doesn't go #1. It might not be to the Bears, but I think he's going to go #1 overall
Big Rick, how is doing medicals as the combine wasting any team's time? There are independent doctors there performing the medicals and giving the results to all the teams. He isn't meeting with 32 doctors at the combine. Am I wrong?
Yeah this is what I thought as well. I've seen reporters today make it seem like each teams doctor's do individual tests.
Williams may be an all pro or a total bust. It the keyboard warriors here are awesome. You all are definitely smarter than anyone who disagrees w you
Or people are going to express varying opinions on a message board
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In comment 16413301 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16413295 riceneggs said:
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In comment 16413273 UConn4523
Ok, you need to step back from the keyboard. This is ridiculous. You think this is over not wanting to run a 40? Eli has money because his dad does? Please stop.
You sound like you grew up in an orphanage and that's ok (joke)
But yes, that's typically how a close knit family dynamic works.
If my dad is well off and the brother is rich, then chances are they've looked out for me
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I just can't name one "bad" thing he's done.
After writing FUCK UTAH on his knuckles, he didn't leave the bench to shake hands after the loss. Now you can name one bad thing he's done.
Dammnnnnnnnm, they should've locked him up for writing curse words on his knuckles
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In comment 16413328 riceneggs said:
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I just can't name one "bad" thing he's done.
After writing FUCK UTAH on his knuckles, he didn't leave the bench to shake hands after the loss. Now you can name one bad thing he's done.
Dammnnnnnnnm, they should've locked him up for writing curse words on his knuckles
I just spoke to Phil Simms at the Super Bowl about Caleb. I told him I didn't care about him painting his nails or crying after losing. Phil said it's an age thing. He said it would bother him personally if he was a Owner/GM/Coach and he said it will probably bother a lot of the older Owners/GMs/HCs and the younger guys probably won't care as much. He thinks he's a very good QB and will be a successful QB in the NFL.
- Not doing the medical is a red flag and reflects on CW's decision making in general. Just not acting like a grown up - I really don't understand why this matters? For example the Chiefs (Chargers/Texans/49ers) aren't taking you. Why waste their time or your time with it? The teams that are going to draft him will have his medical records. This shit happens all the time in the NBA and it isn't a problem.
- Comes off too much like he plays an individual sport, not a team sport - Yeah he's cocky. So is just about every great player of all time
- Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing because it could change his perspective about what's expected of him as an NFL QB - Concerned about what? Him having money? Drake Maye & Jayden Daniels have made plenty of NIL money as well. They will get even more before they play a snap in the NFL. I actually think it's a positive that he's gotten paid. A lot of players get paid and mail it in. He hasn't done that. So not sure why it would be a worry in the NFL. He said today he's not worried about money or jewelry. Nothing we've seen from him suggests he is.
- Thinks CW's actions here could create an opening for Daniels to get even closer to the #1 pick - I can't see anyway he doesn't go #1. It might not be to the Bears, but I think he's going to go #1 overall
If I can put words in your mouth, you don't any issue here and this is simply an overreaction. And this is normal behavior for a talented Gen Z kid...Right?
Parlay a couple of good seasons as a young NFL QB into a $500M deal, then he can probably just buy a cow or two.
Here's the thing I want to make clear. It wasn't like Pat was going apoplectic like a Chris Russo take. He pretty calmly and methodically expressed his point of view and didn't give me any impression he had an axe to grind.
Was just going to post similar comment.
PK may have some information from.the program that's leading to these conclusions.
Read Kirwan's list of B.S. red flags again.
"Rehearsed comments". (Oh no! Caleb actually rehearsed his comments before speaking to the media.)
"Doesn't want to do medicals with teams that can't possibly draft him." (Why should he let the Vikings, Broncos and Raiders poke and prod him, when there's not a chance in hell that they can draft him?)
Followed by Pat's biased opinions:
"Caleb comes off like..." (Where are Pat's examples of this behavior?)
"Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing..." (As someone else already pointed out, this complaint makes Pat seem more like an old school guy begrudging college athletes getting paid.)
Again, this is a whole lot of nothing! Much like all the BBIers who would pass on Caleb, because he paints his finger nails and had an emotional hug with his Mom.
The Bears are drafting Williams #1 overall no matter what Pat and others may think.
Kirwan actually talked about this a bit yesterday. They go through about 6 rounds of medicals, all the same tests but with different doctors each round in order to get independent results each time. Not uncommon for one group to find something that another group didn't.
Read Kirwan's list of B.S. red flags again.
"Rehearsed comments". (Oh no! Caleb actually rehearsed his comments before speaking to the media.)
"Doesn't want to do medicals with teams that can't possibly draft him." (Why should he let the Vikings, Broncos and Raiders poke and prod him, when there's not a chance in hell that they can draft him?)
Followed by Pat's biased opinions:
"Caleb comes off like..." (Where are Pat's examples of this behavior?)
"Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing..." (As someone else already pointed out, this complaint makes Pat seem more like an old school guy begrudging college athletes getting paid.)
Again, this is a whole lot of nothing! Much like all the BBIers who would pass on Caleb, because he paints his finger nails and had an emotional hug with his Mom.
The Bears are drafting Williams #1 overall no matter what Pat and others may think.
The irony here is hysterical, as you’re using YOUR confirmation bias in the way you’re criticizing him for.
“The Bears are drafting Williams #1 overall no matter what Pat and others may think”. Haha, yep, no confirmation bias there!
This class may be the first to really have benefitted from NIL. It will be interesting to see how it changes the attitude of athletes going forward.
Those saying there aren't any are suffering from confirmation bias.
Kirwan isn't prone to hyperbole.
Admittedly, just a feeling here.
Quote:
My guess is that Kirwan didn't particularly care for Caleb before and his silly little list has more to do with confirmation bias than anything else.
Read Kirwan's list of B.S. red flags again.
"Rehearsed comments". (Oh no! Caleb actually rehearsed his comments before speaking to the media.)
"Doesn't want to do medicals with teams that can't possibly draft him." (Why should he let the Vikings, Broncos and Raiders poke and prod him, when there's not a chance in hell that they can draft him?)
Followed by Pat's biased opinions:
"Caleb comes off like..." (Where are Pat's examples of this behavior?)
"Concerned that the $10M in NIL money might not be the best thing..." (As someone else already pointed out, this complaint makes Pat seem more like an old school guy begrudging college athletes getting paid.)
Again, this is a whole lot of nothing! Much like all the BBIers who would pass on Caleb, because he paints his finger nails and had an emotional hug with his Mom.
The Bears are drafting Williams #1 overall no matter what Pat and others may think.
The irony here is hysterical, as you’re using YOUR confirmation bias in the way you’re criticizing him for.
“The Bears are drafting Williams #1 overall no matter what Pat and others may think”. Haha, yep, no confirmation bias there!
Not sure how you can suggest that my statement is an example of confirmation bias, when the vast majority of "draft experts" are predicting the exact same thing... that Caleb will go #1 overall to the Bears.
So no. It's not confirmation bias or irony. But it's cool that you find my mainstream opinion as "hysterical".
That’s the definition of confirmation bias
That’s the definition of confirmation bias
Yup.
And this isn't really surprising. When a prospect shows up at the Combine with an entourage, it's a really bad sign.
Those saying there aren't any are suffering from confirmation bias.
Kirwan isn't prone to hyperbole.
So which of those Kirwan red flags are deal breakers for you?
You don't like the fact that Caleb sounded rehearsed? And if Caleb didn't rehearse his comments would Kirwan (and probably you) suggest that he seemed unprepared?
You don't like the fact that he wouldn't submit to mass medical testing from clubs that won't be able to draft him or that he took NIL money (like other top college players did?)
Or is it the painted finger nails and getting emotional with his mom?
These "red flags" are not drugs, spousal abuse, weapons or illegal behavior. It's all incredibly minor stuff.
Take a step back, which other top prospect has even one of these concerns let alone multiple? And at QB no less.
That’s the definition of confirmation bias
And you don't want CW, so you make a big deal out of small stuff. Works both ways.
Moot point however. The Giants won't be in a position to draft him anyway. (Sorry if that prediction seemed a little too much like confirmation bias for your taste.)
I've seen it before.
9 times out of 10. It doesn't end well.
Could he be the one guy in 10? Sure. But the risk is awfully great.
It's been drip, drip, drip with him.
And Kirwan is not a guy who posts sensational stuff just for the sake of it.
As for not wanting CW, ever think that people used to want him and slowly started realizing maybe that’s not so smart? I’m on of them and nothing about that is unreasonable. If we drafted them, I’d root like hell for him, however.
Take a step back, which other top prospect has even one of these concerns let alone multiple? And at QB no less.
When you tally a whole lot of nothing, it still adds up to nothing.
Which of those concerns mean anything?
Does CW not prepare for games? Does he play poorly? Take drugs, abuse women, get arrested?
No to all of those things. But he paints his fingernails!
I've seen it before.
9 times out of 10. It doesn't end well.
Could he be the one guy in 10? Sure. But the risk is awfully great.
It's been drip, drip, drip with him.
And Kirwan is not a guy who posts sensational stuff just for the sake of it.
Don't give me the "I've watched football for decades" crap, as if your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others.
Most everyone on this site has watched football for decades and some (like me) have been watching it for longer than you have. It's meaningless.
Your drip, drip, examples of Caleb's big bad red flags, still add up to nothing.
But this is ridiculous:
Uhm. If the plan is to be the first player picked, and you're not, you can't find a way to make that happen.
CW seems pretty relaxed, fairly candid, and he does give some good insights into his craft.
Calen Interview - ( New Window )
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I've watched enough football for decades to have a pretty good feel for someone who is going to be a problem. He just radiates "me first."
I've seen it before.
9 times out of 10. It doesn't end well.
Could he be the one guy in 10? Sure. But the risk is awfully great.
It's been drip, drip, drip with him.
And Kirwan is not a guy who posts sensational stuff just for the sake of it.
Don't give me the "I've watched football for decades" crap, as if your opinion is more valid than the opinion of others.
Most everyone on this site has watched football for decades and some (like me) have been watching it for longer than you have. It's meaningless.
Your drip, drip, examples of Caleb's big bad red flags, still add up to nothing.
Such an angry little man. It’s bizarre that you’re taking this stuff so personally. Just admit that you love Williams so you will ignore everything anyone else has to say unless it’s telling you how awesome he is and that he’s certainly going to be great.
You sound like a petulant child that has your parents tell you something that you don’t like so you put your hands over your ears and shout at the top of your lungs because they surely don’t know as much as you do
People act like being the #1 prospect is a gift or a lottery that status is EARNED.
People act like being the #1 prospect is a gift or a lottery that status is EARNED.
I hate to break it to you but Williams needs the NFL a hell of a lot more than the NFL needs him. The NFL would be just fine if he never plays a single down and nobody on the planet other than Williams himself would never even know he was ever even a thing
The red flags are there.
You just choose to ignore them.
We shall see.
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but what about when you add it all together?
Take a step back, which other top prospect has even one of these concerns let alone multiple? And at QB no less.
When you tally a whole lot of nothing, it still adds up to nothing.
Which of those concerns mean anything?
Does CW not prepare for games? Does he play poorly? Take drugs, abuse women, get arrested?
No to all of those things. But he paints his fingernails!
Just because you say it’s nothing doesn’t mean it’s true. Little things tend to stay little when they are one offs, when it becomes numerous it’s a larger and they tend to add up. Apply this logic to anything, it’s not a foreign concept.
I've seen it before.
9 times out of 10. It doesn't end well.
Could he be the one guy in 10? Sure. But the risk is awfully great.
It's been drip, drip, drip with him.
And Kirwan is not a guy who posts sensational stuff just for the sake of it.
This, its all about risk management. If we wager a lot a lose, it sets us back years (again).
I don't know if the vibes are totally "bad" but they're strange for sure.
A competitor shows up to show out.
A competitor shows up to show out.
That’s a bizarre take to say the least as most of the top prospects do not perform the combine
They utilize their pro day for that
But this is ridiculous:
Quote:
I don’t think I’m not going to be No. 1. I put in all the hard work. All of the time, effort, energy into being that. I don’t think of a Plan B. That’s kind of how I do things in my life. I don’t think of a Plan B. Stay on Plan A and then when things don’t work out find a way to make Plan A work.
Uhm. If the plan is to be the first player picked, and you're not, you can't find a way to make that happen.
We already have a QB who locks in on Plan A.
I'm re-attaching it so other can view it if they missed it.
What did you think?
Williams Interview - ( New Window )
What did you think? Williams Interview
He was refreshingly cool and easy going. Nothing like the recent clippings portray him.
Quote:
What did you think? Williams Interview
He was refreshingly cool and easy going. Nothing like the recent clippings portray him.
I saw him play several times at Gonzaga High School when we were looking at it for my kids. And heard him talk with people after games and do local interviews. Sounded like he had a good head on his shoulders, and nothing seemed too big.
This interview with Simms and Florio seemed more like that.
There are some really impressive young men about to be drafted. This has the makings of a special QB class.
There are some really impressive young men about to be drafted. This has the makings of a special QB class.
It's not a great look with the medical situation. That's probably where we differ. It's one thing not to throw/workout, but every team should have access to your general health and condition. Just not the right precedent to set. Manning didn't do it. Luck didn't. Burrow didn't. Mahomes. Etc.
I wish one of them would have asked, what if a team wants to trade up and draft you?
Otherwise, he seems like a chill kid. He's no Jayden Daniels, but who is?
Quote:
What did you think? Williams Interview
He was refreshingly cool and easy going. Nothing like the recent clippings portray him.
I found Williams likable and I think he loves the sport.
Biteymax isn’t one for conspiracy theories so make sure to read his post above. The Bears are an absolute mess. But if Williams doesn’t want to play fir them, why doesn’t he publicly announce this, like Eli?
Quote:
Example one million to not jump to conclusions over sound bites.
There are some really impressive young men about to be drafted. This has the makings of a special QB class.
It's not a great look with the medical situation. That's probably where we differ. It's one thing not to throw/workout, but every team should have access to your general health and condition. Just not the right precedent to set. Manning didn't do it. Luck didn't. Burrow didn't. Mahomes. Etc.
Agree Caleb’s answer was unconvincing. The Combine tests involve multiple teams of doctors. I wonder if the individual exams by single teams are less exhaustive? Is Caleb hiding a serious medical flag?
That stuff is less to me....obviously with Toney, it was an issue.
His size worries me.....cold weather would worry.
The fumbles....not taking team to new heights.
He doesn't come across as someone who doesn't take his craft seriously. Seems like a serious person.....his position on the medicals make sense to me.
I would not trade up and give up the farm for him.....but, Chicago is interesting
Fields vs Williams.....it makes sense.....on a rookie deal is still better....than paying 40/50 million
CW seems pretty relaxed, fairly candid, and he does give some good insights into his craft. Calen Interview - ( New Window )
Great interview. This is the best media appearance by any of the QB prospects. He answers questions directly with a great sense of self. He's thoughtful and honest and funny. It's obvious he takes the craft seriously. He has a chance to be a great nfl leader.
But I think the concern for CW is a little overblown
Will be interesting to see how this all works out for him but I have to believe that some coaches who run a tight, team oriented program are going to get turned off by the guy, regardless of his talent.
I only hope he doesn’t fall to #6.
It's a clear, direct set of answers. Not just a jock who looks lost. If you can't see it, you have bigger problems than what crops up on a message board. You should stop harrassing people who have different opinions then you. You're coming across as an angry, ignorant, unlikable bully. This is the last I'll address you until you can manage to figure out what the words civility and collegiality mean.
Similar logic cost us Micah Parsons (and ironically led to Kadarius fucking Toney, who ACTUALLY had red flags) pretty recently so one would think fans have learned from that experience.
The results of the medical can and would be a factor in whether the team would actually want to draft you at all let alone at the top of the draft.
I would not spend the draft capital and money on a player if I cannot see whether he is healthy right now.
IMO I would be pissed if the Giants did not select a QB high in this draft. I would be equally pissed if they selected this QB.
The results of the medical can and would be a factor in whether the team would actually want to draft you at all let alone at the top of the draft.
I would not spend the draft capital and money on a player if I cannot see whether he is healthy right now.
IMO I would be pissed if the Giants did not select a QB high in this draft. I would be equally pissed if they selected this QB.
More faux outrage. He's doing medicals with teams in position to draft him. So you can dispel the notion that if the Giants move into position to draft him, they won't be able to check out his medicals.
[quote]
More faux outrage. [/quote
I think you need to figure out the definition of outrage. I simply stated my opinion. I am not outraged about anything that I read on BBI.
So, it is not outrage, nor is it faux. Are you suggesting that I was faking being outraged when my post did not even suggest that I was outraged?
Any therapists or English teachers here on BBI who can help?
[quote]
More faux outrage. [/quote
I think you need to figure out the definition of outrage. I simply stated my opinion. I am not outraged about anything that I read on BBI.
So, it is not outrage, nor is it faux. Are you suggesting that I was faking being outraged when my post did not even suggest that I was outraged?
Any therapists or English teachers here on BBI who can help?
Ok. Then you're just misinformed. Any team with a shot to draft him gets medicals.
Lol.
He's good but some people are acting like he'll be Mahomes right away.
Quote:
So this interview matters? lol. What a clown.
It's a clear, direct set of answers. Not just a jock who looks lost. If you can't see it, you have bigger problems than what crops up on a message board. You should stop harrassing people who have different opinions then you. You're coming across as an angry, ignorant, unlikable bully. This is the last I'll address you until you can manage to figure out what the words civility and collegiality mean.
You attack anyone who says something negative about Caleb Williams. You “producer “ nothing but hit attacks and shit.
Get a mirror buddy.
Will be interesting to see how this all works out for him but I have to believe that some coaches who run a tight, team oriented program are going to get turned off by the guy, regardless of his talent.
I only hope he doesn’t fall to #6.
I’m more alarmed by MHJ skipping an actual commitment than any of the CW flags listed here (though he’s had many flags pop up through the year). Pretty safe bet that he’s not falling anywhere close to 6. It’s equally safe to assume that teams picking top-5 don’t run a tight ship :-)
First, Williams has no agent. A number of people in the media have been speculating for some time that he was going to be the subject of media attacks by teams hoping to drive his draft position down and agents looking to push their clients up. With no agent, he has no one to go attack the story or put their own counter attack out there to protect the client.
Second, people forget that sports media is a relationship business. Kirwan is not immune to that. He gets fed a story enough and he’ll run with it. I have no doubt that there are teams that are turned off by his decision- but most of this is faux outrage designed to fill two months before the draft, as well as to help teams trying to create doubt for the Bears. Remember there are several clubs (including the Giants) who would benefit if the Bears decided Williams will be too much.
Third, to remain productive, Kirwan needs leaks and info. Like most journalists in sports, he is not above carrying someone’s water for them if it gets him the story. This has all the making of a “hit piece” that gets him some favors to call in closer to the draft. Is this one of those stories that sinks a player like the Tunsal pot mask? No- but it advances the agenda of several teams and agents- and Kirwan will be able to circle back in April for better stuff.
Finally, Kirwan is “old school” media. Many of these guys have a LOT of trouble relating to the new generation of player and are legitimately turned off by some of the things they do and the decisions they make. In many ways, when I read the story, I had the meme image of old man waving fist at a cloud in my mind.
Bottom line- this thread has been a fascinating Rorschach test of fan’s thoughts on Williams. however, what is missing in all the strum and fury is the understanding of the likely situation. Instead, it has done exactly what whoever fed Kirwan the story intended- General disparagement of Williams and his character, in hope hope that it either causes the Bears to pass on him or trade out of the pick.
rich, there is no doubt Williams is a little "strange" and it could be the immaturity of a 21 y/o. The lack of an agent doesn't help, for sure.
So Pat Kirwan is just carrying water for some unnamed organization hoping Williams falls? I doubt it. What team is going to fall for this kind of "hit piece" now that Gettleman is gone!
CW is really correct to limit his physicals to the top 6-8 teams(or even fewer). Doubt anyone else has a chance to move up to #1.
I will always remember(and doubted) the hoopla of Eli Apple and his "red flag" of being a momma's boy and how it turned out to be prescient. I will acknowledge that 95% of people say he is the best QB in the draft. Same was said of Jeff George and arguably Ryan Leaf...I am not saying CW is at that level, but buyer needs to be aware. And what is to say that a few GMS didn't grumble about CW's behavior?
It is lying season. Perhaps Kirwan is flushing out which teams are truly interested. Perhaps he is just reporting what he is hearing because it does generate clicks...
Quote:
.......
rich, there is no doubt Williams is a little "strange" and it could be the immaturity of a 21 y/o. The lack of an agent doesn't help, for sure.
So Pat Kirwan is just carrying water for some unnamed organization hoping Williams falls? I doubt it. What team is going to fall for this kind of "hit piece" now that Gettleman is gone!
CW is really correct to limit his physicals to the top 6-8 teams(or even fewer). Doubt anyone else has a chance to move up to #1.
I will always remember(and doubted) the hoopla of Eli Apple and his "red flag" of being a momma's boy and how it turned out to be prescient. I will acknowledge that 95% of people say he is the best QB in the draft. Same was said of Jeff George and arguably Ryan Leaf...I am not saying CW is at that level, but buyer needs to be aware. And what is to say that a few GMS didn't grumble about CW's behavior?
It is lying season. Perhaps Kirwan is flushing out which teams are truly interested. Perhaps he is just reporting what he is hearing because it does generate clicks...
Kirwan typically doesn’t behave like a click bait guy. Also, the NFL combine isn’t 32 docs prodding you. Do I think an agent for another QB could be spreading every “red flag”, yes, but I also think that any NFL team that is even halfway competent knows about the risks already. It isn’t like the movie Draft Day where you suddenly learn things as the draft is almost about to start.
First, Williams has no agent. A number of people in the media have been speculating for some time that he was going to be the subject of media attacks by teams hoping to drive his draft position down and agents looking to push their clients up. With no agent, he has no one to go attack the story or put their own counter attack out there to protect the client.
Second, people forget that sports media is a relationship business. Kirwan is not immune to that. He gets fed a story enough and he’ll run with it. I have no doubt that there are teams that are turned off by his decision- but most of this is faux outrage designed to fill two months before the draft, as well as to help teams trying to create doubt for the Bears. Remember there are several clubs (including the Giants) who would benefit if the Bears decided Williams will be too much.
Third, to remain productive, Kirwan needs leaks and info. Like most journalists in sports, he is not above carrying someone’s water for them if it gets him the story. This has all the making of a “hit piece” that gets him some favors to call in closer to the draft. Is this one of those stories that sinks a player like the Tunsal pot mask? No- but it advances the agenda of several teams and agents- and Kirwan will be able to circle back in April for better stuff.
Finally, Kirwan is “old school” media. Many of these guys have a LOT of trouble relating to the new generation of player and are legitimately turned off by some of the things they do and the decisions they make. In many ways, when I read the story, I had the meme image of old man waving fist at a cloud in my mind.
Bottom line- this thread has been a fascinating Rorschach test of fan’s thoughts on Williams. however, what is missing in all the strum and fury is the understanding of the likely situation. Instead, it has done exactly what whoever fed Kirwan the story intended- General disparagement of Williams and his character, in hope hope that it either causes the Bears to pass on him or trade out of the pick.
There is truth in much of what you just said. But you are also spinning it to suit one side.
What do we know as FACT? Caleb is already a millionaire several times over. Caleb has refused to hire a professional agent. Caleb has refused to take a medical exam.
There are reports that he was not well liked by teammates at USC. He didn't handle losing well from an emotional perspective (yes, how you conduct yourself in public matters after a loss). He did show up at the Combine with an entourage.
So these things are not subjective. They happened. I think it is safe to say, at the very least, there are some entitlement and emotional issues to consider.
Is Kirwan being used to spread disinformation? Possibly. Possibly not.
But does is seem so out of character based on what we already know?
Pat and Jim are tremendous. They really try to keep their program focused on football - strategy, team building (cap/personnel), game review. They aren't doing a show like Russo, Cowherd, Smith, Bayless, etc. It's much dryer.
So, Pat laid out the issues with CW that he thought were problematic and then moved on to interviewing Maye and Tez Walker. In other words, he didn't keep beating the drum to make his comments the theme of the show.
Posters can draw any conclusions they want, but this was far from an agenda thing with Pat.
BUT, we have seen all-world talents implode because they can't do the latter. You don't have to go back to Ryan Leaf.
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It’s actually kind of funny to read this thread and how everyone is using this to somehow further their own personal narratives about the player without actually stopping to remember several underlying points.
First, Williams has no agent. A number of people in the media have been speculating for some time that he was going to be the subject of media attacks by teams hoping to drive his draft position down and agents looking to push their clients up. With no agent, he has no one to go attack the story or put their own counter attack out there to protect the client.
Second, people forget that sports media is a relationship business. Kirwan is not immune to that. He gets fed a story enough and he’ll run with it. I have no doubt that there are teams that are turned off by his decision- but most of this is faux outrage designed to fill two months before the draft, as well as to help teams trying to create doubt for the Bears. Remember there are several clubs (including the Giants) who would benefit if the Bears decided Williams will be too much.
Third, to remain productive, Kirwan needs leaks and info. Like most journalists in sports, he is not above carrying someone’s water for them if it gets him the story. This has all the making of a “hit piece” that gets him some favors to call in closer to the draft. Is this one of those stories that sinks a player like the Tunsal pot mask? No- but it advances the agenda of several teams and agents- and Kirwan will be able to circle back in April for better stuff.
Finally, Kirwan is “old school” media. Many of these guys have a LOT of trouble relating to the new generation of player and are legitimately turned off by some of the things they do and the decisions they make. In many ways, when I read the story, I had the meme image of old man waving fist at a cloud in my mind.
Bottom line- this thread has been a fascinating Rorschach test of fan’s thoughts on Williams. however, what is missing in all the strum and fury is the understanding of the likely situation. Instead, it has done exactly what whoever fed Kirwan the story intended- General disparagement of Williams and his character, in hope hope that it either causes the Bears to pass on him or trade out of the pick.
There is truth in much of what you just said. But you are also spinning it to suit one side.
What do we know as FACT? Caleb is already a millionaire several times over. Caleb has refused to hire a professional agent. Caleb has refused to take a medical exam.
There are reports that he was not well liked by teammates at USC. He didn't handle losing well from an emotional perspective (yes, how you conduct yourself in public matters after a loss). He did show up at the Combine with an entourage.
So these things are not subjective. They happened. I think it is safe to say, at the very least, there are some entitlement and emotional issues to consider.
Is Kirwan being used to spread disinformation? Possibly. Possibly not.
But does is seem so out of character based on what we already know?
There are no credible reports that Williams was not well liked or respected by teammates. All there is, is conjecture by Twitter warriors regarding interviews and sideline footage where he is not mentioned at all. All reports regarding his leadership, where he is mentioned by name, are glowing. And the backup QB who, it is said, disparaged him, though he isn't mentioned and you have to do some dot connecting to make it about Williams, this same player tweeted that he loves CW and thanks him for helping and supporting him. So the leadership/locker room character issue, is not a data point working against CW.
I'd strongly suggest anyone who has read the headlines and think there's smoke, to watch the interview with Florio and Simms. And honestly say that guy seems like he has bad judgement or is emotionally immature.
I'm embarrassed I'm so naive that I didn't understand why he's refusing to do broad medicals.
It's the only leverage he has to control what team picks him. He's only giving access to his body to teams he's willing to play for. This eliminates the chance a team he doesn't want to go from trading up with the Bears.
I'd strongly suggest anyone who has read the headlines and think there's smoke, to watch the interview with Florio and Simms. And honestly say that guy seems like he has bad judgement or is emotionally immature.
I'm embarrassed I'm so naive that I didn't understand why he's refusing to do broad medicals.
It's the only leverage he has to control what team picks him. He's only giving access to his body to teams he's willing to play for. This eliminates the chance a team he doesn't want to go from trading up with the Bears.
yes. The interview posted here by BW shows a thoughtful kid who appears to be mature beyond his age. Look, Williams rubs some people the wrong way, especially culture warriors. They want him to fail because he doesn't look to them like he will be a good soldier. He doesn't conform to their idea of what a hard-nosed, obedient, leader of men, should be. I don't put a lot of weight to these personality cliches. But maybe he'll be a great artist who can transform a team that way. Well those same critics who think it takes a soldier, don't want artists to succeed.
LOL
His draft position is slotted, and his father is a managing partner in an elite athletic training program. He's also already represented by a major marketing firm. The normal responsibilities of an agent - contract negotiations, prepping for measurement activities, and prepping for endorsements are seemingly covered. Hiring an agent seems redundant and costly.
Not taking the medicals is actually quite savvy. As posted above, it's a leverage play to ensure he has some say in where he plays.
I think the biggest question is why was he seemingly not liked by his teammates. Was it simple jealousy that he was already wealthy and not one of the guys, or did he act like he wasn't and exhibit poor leadership?
Oh damn!
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Let's remember what all the red flags allegedly indicate -- that Williams has some level emotional immaturity or bad judgement that will compromise his ability to add maximum value to the team that drafts him.
I'd strongly suggest anyone who has read the headlines and think there's smoke, to watch the interview with Florio and Simms. And honestly say that guy seems like he has bad judgement or is emotionally immature.
I'm embarrassed I'm so naive that I didn't understand why he's refusing to do broad medicals.
It's the only leverage he has to control what team picks him. He's only giving access to his body to teams he's willing to play for. This eliminates the chance a team he doesn't want to go from trading up with the Bears.
yes. The interview posted here by BW shows a thoughtful kid who appears to be mature beyond his age. Look, Williams rubs some people the wrong way, especially culture warriors. They want him to fail because he doesn't look to them like he will be a good soldier. He doesn't conform to their idea of what a hard-nosed, obedient, leader of men, should be. I don't put a lot of weight to these personality cliches. But maybe he'll be a great artist who can transform a team that way. Well those same critics who think it takes a soldier, don't want artists to succeed.
wtf? So now all these red flags, however innocent or not you think they may be, is just Willams being an “artist”? Holy shitballs. You sound like a love struck teenager. Pull your shit together, it’s embarrassing
2. You play well. Then nobody cares. Performance is king. It was only a few years ago that teams were bending over backwards to fit jagoffs onto their teams who committed all kinds of crimes and other indiscretions. Sure that has changed but if Caleb comes into the league and lights it up nobody is going to care about his missed medical appointment at the Combine.
The problem with Caleb is that he is the first true test of how the NIL has affected the NFL in terms of incoming rookies. It could be a huge shift. Do you want to be the team who pioneers that if it is a disaster?
I have no skin in the game with Caleb Williams. If the Giants were to draft him, then I'd root for him. If he goes to the Commanders, I will root again him. Now? I don't care. But I've seen things that make me wonder if he has the temperament for the NFL. Others have had the same concern so it's not outlandish.
Kirwan, who has a fine reputation, says something and the knee-jerk response is to attack the messenger? That's pretty telling.
we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.
shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.
we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.
shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.
Part of the abysmal hit rate is because the Giants ignore character concerns with Deandre Baker and Kadarious Toney.
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is that the Giants’ recent hit rate on 1st round draft picks is abysmal. why? because we choose players for the wrong reasons. we pick players to fill holes left by a prior GM’s ineptitude or because a GM falls in love with a guy’s physique or because he was a team captain six times or because we are still building around a guy who can’t play or because some other team outsmarted us. end result is that WE SUCK AT DRAFTING college players. this team will never be fixed until we get better.
we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.
shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.
Part of the abysmal hit rate is because the Giants ignore character concerns with Deandre Baker and Kadarious Toney.
You can certainly make that argument for the prior regime
For the current leadership…..TBD
Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.
Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.
There is truth in this as well.
However, NFL franchise have to make decisions based on the info they acquire. The Combine and the Pro Days and the 30 visits were only established so teams can acquire this information.
When the prospect refuses to provide that info, the teams are understandably going to react negatively.
I would.
marvin harrison jr or position players skipping drills is one thing and it rarely gets held against them. evan neal was still a top pick and rated as OT1 through his draft process.
QBs displaying bad decision making is a different category of concern that bleeds into part of what they are drafted to be - leaders who take even the non-glamourous parts of the job behind the scenes seriously.
people forget a big reason lamar jackson was passed over, including by his own team baltimore who drafted hayden freaknig hurst over him 7 picks before they took lamar, was because he too had some contract stuff and combine stuff. just like there was animosity in his contract extension discussions for over a year. when it comes to qbs teams are evaluating the off field far more than other positions (duh) and that's because lots of guys like haskins and wilson bust straight out because of immaturity.
Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.
You call it leverage. Fine. I'm leaning towards calling it the "jerk-off factor". Is it really worth it to establish some precedent by not doing medicals? Or interviews?
You listen/read to any NFL executive and they will tell you the most important aspects to the Combine are the medicals and interviews. Teams want to get to know you.
Is it that taxing to talk and get checked-out when the league is setting this opportunity so up for everyone to meet at one site? JFC, be a grown-up and check the simple boxes...
It just reeks of entitlement.
I have no skin in the game with Caleb Williams. If the Giants were to draft him, then I'd root for him. If he goes to the Commanders, I will root again him. Now? I don't care. But I've seen things that make me wonder if he has the temperament for the NFL. Others have had the same concern so it's not outlandish.
Kirwan, who has a fine reputation, says something and the knee-jerk response is to attack the messenger? That's pretty telling.
This is exactly where I’m at. I’ve wanted to trade up for Williams since the season ended. And I still hope they do. I think he’s so talented that I’d be willing to take a chance on him. But you have to be a complete moron to just completely dismiss all of the noise that’s been going on around the guy. It’s up to the teams to do a deeper dive and come to a conclusion on whether or not any of this will be an issue moving forward, As you said, I just don’t understand how people can immediately dismiss any mention of potentially negative news and also go to great lengths to discredit the messengers delivering that stuff simply because they like a player and think he’s talented. It’s like dating a hot chick and all your friends keep telling you she’s cheating on you but you don’t want it to be true so you rip your friends apart instead of being open to the possibility
Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.
This is exactly how I feel--players should use their leverage. I have always thought more players should pull Eli's if they can.
I also agree with your above post on Williams--this stuff seems like noise, but the teammates potentially not liking him bothers me.
If he has the resources to accomplish all of the duties of an agent, and they are being accomplished a la carte, adhering to the conventional structure isn't necessary.
The construct is changing. When you've been operating a 10M NIL business, you're coming from a completely different place than a legacy college athlete.
The business is simply changing. And the young men are changing too. They are more savvy and cognizant of the business side.
There also stands a chance your friends simply don't understand why a chick that hot would date you and are unnecessarily negative because of the ignorance, right?
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It’s like dating a hot chick and all your friends keep telling you she’s cheating on you but you don’t want it to be true so you rip your friends apart instead of being open to the possibility
There also stands a chance your friends simply don't understand why a chick that hot would date you and are unnecessarily negative because of the ignorance, right?
Well, duh. That’s the entire point. You can just assume your friends are jealous and plant your head firmly in the sand because you don’t like what they are telling you. Or you could keep an open mind and consider the fact that there just may be something to it. In the end, there may not be anything to it. But there also may be. Personally, I’d want to do my due diligence before determining what is true or not. Regardless of how hot she is. Seems like the most rational way to go to me. But hey, feel free to cram your noggin into the sand and just assume your friends are lying if that’s your thing. You did you
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I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.
Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.
You call it leverage. Fine. I'm leaning towards calling it the "jerk-off factor". Is it really worth it to establish some precedent by not doing medicals? Or interviews?
You listen/read to any NFL executive and they will tell you the most important aspects to the Combine are the medicals and interviews. Teams want to get to know you.
Is it that taxing to talk and get checked-out when the league is setting this opportunity so up for everyone to meet at one site? JFC, be a grown-up and check the simple boxes...
It just reeks of entitlement.
+ 1
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In comment 16413887 The Jake said:
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is that the Giants’ recent hit rate on 1st round draft picks is abysmal. why? because we choose players for the wrong reasons. we pick players to fill holes left by a prior GM’s ineptitude or because a GM falls in love with a guy’s physique or because he was a team captain six times or because we are still building around a guy who can’t play or because some other team outsmarted us. end result is that WE SUCK AT DRAFTING college players. this team will never be fixed until we get better.
we need to draft PLAYERS who dominate on the field. we don’t have the luxury of trying to parse out who is a good person and who isn’t.
shit, i would prefer 22 Christian Peters compared to the joke rosters we’ve had in the past decade.
Part of the abysmal hit rate is because the Giants ignore character concerns with Deandre Baker and Kadarious Toney.
You can certainly make that argument for the prior regime
For the current leadership…..TBD
Yes, probably true. Nevertheless, let's make sure the proper support is noted for the current regime in all cases.
I'm a little lost in the metaphor here.
I'm sure Chicago and any other team interested in trading up to draft him is putting in all of the requisite work to assess his character and decision making rationale.
In terms of being a fan and guessing whether he's going to make it or not, I'm more interested in listening to him explain his decisions. That seems way more instructive than what others say about him.
He's definitely not playing by the old rules, and is certainly operating like he's entitled. Whether that portends some negative outcome, or is a savvy negotiation skill is to be determined in my view.
I'd rather a young man use the system to navigate where he wants to play, than some of the previous ways players including Manning have operated.
Williams may be an all pro or a total bust. It the keyboard warriors here are awesome. You all are definitely smarter than anyone who disagrees w you
It's a tradition unlike any other. *grin*
The question is will he actually focus 100% on being a starting NFL QB like it's the most important thing in the world. Guys who do not do so, don't last long. See, e.g., Johnny Football, Josh Rosen, Haskins (RIP).
I have no idea based on snippets here and there what his attitude will be. It's up to the Giants and the other QB needy teams to figure it out.
BUT, we have seen all-world talents implode because they can't do the latter. You don't have to go back to Ryan Leaf.
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I think one emerging trend is the blue chip players are realizing they have more leverage and also don't have to participate in some of the ceremonial activities. I think that makes some of the older fixtures in and around the league uncomfortable.
Maybe the wisest observation I've heard this off season is MHJ questioning why he should stop training for football and train for the combine. That's kind of brilliant.
You call it leverage. Fine. I'm leaning towards calling it the "jerk-off factor". Is it really worth it to establish some precedent by not doing medicals? Or interviews?
You listen/read to any NFL executive and they will tell you the most important aspects to the Combine are the medicals and interviews. Teams want to get to know you.
Is it that taxing to talk and get checked-out when the league is setting this opportunity so up for everyone to meet at one site? JFC, be a grown-up and check the simple boxes...
It just reeks of entitlement.
Not hiring an agent, for example, doesn't seem like a wise decision on the surface. But, on it's own, not huge given the basic rookie deal for a #1 pick is settled already. But, then we hear that is exactly why he didn't hire one. Supposedly the y interviewed agents making their ability to find a loophole in the CBA around the draft. They didn't like the consistent answer they received that it wasn't possible. So, their response is don't hire an agent. a ton of red flags here.
If he doesn't like Chicago, he should just be a dick like Elway and Eli. They were both assholes and both wrong. But, that decision worked out for both. But, he takes this to a whole other level that the vitriol directed at him is bound to be many times worse.
Not hiring an agent, for example, doesn't seem like a wise decision on the surface. But, on it's own, not huge given the basic rookie deal for a #1 pick is settled already. But, then we hear that is exactly why he didn't hire one. Supposedly the y interviewed agents making their ability to find a loophole in the CBA around the draft. They didn't like the consistent answer they received that it wasn't possible. So, their response is don't hire an agent. a ton of red flags here.
If he doesn't like Chicago, he should just be a dick like Elway and Eli. They were both assholes and both wrong. But, that decision worked out for both. But, he takes this to a whole other level that the vitriol directed at him is bound to be many times worse.