Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
Development: #Giants Darren Waller's mind is NOT made up and he is still weighing options for the future, he tells
@nypostsports
Nacuo was a 5th round pick. The Giants could have still could have drafted him. I don't get your point.
The more lottery tickets you have, the more likely you are going to hit one. Every ticket should be regarded as gold by a team with as many needs as the Giants.
And in this case, there is compounding point that Schoen looked to fill the "big receiver" need with a 31 year old injury prone player, and that was of course going to affect the priority he gave to filling that need in the draft.
he should retire. When he played last year he actually played like he was trying not to get hurt. You can't play football like that, and the Giants should proceed accordingly.
Bowers should also be a consideration.
he should retire. When he played last year he actually played like he was trying not to get hurt. You can't play football like that, and the Giants should proceed accordingly.
Bowers should also be a consideration.
(opinion) in that I think he is looking to be free (has no trade value at all for the Giants) and maybe hinted at possibly retiring and as such the Giants come out and make a statement we are NOT releasing Waller.
The Giants didn't have to say anything. In fact, even if asked directly they could have shut down the question without a definitive statement in either direction. They chose to say we are not "releasing" Waller. That screams of ok if you are thinking about retiring then we will hold on to you until you do. If not, we expect you to honor your contract.
Overall it means little to me. If he stays, I hope he plays and produces and if he retires well we lost nothing more than salary space (and that can always be adjusted).
someone earlier posted about Waller's rec's to Pitts rec's to prove production.
Waller was 17th in rec's by a TE (and 17th in targets as well). Logan Thomas who was just released by Washington (told he will be released) was 14th, Tyler Conklin of the Jets 13th..
I wouldn't use that stat as saying look at his production even with a bad hip as we could find that same production in a cheaper player. His injury SEVERLY limited his stats and his playing time. It is unlikely he will suddenly find the fountain of youthful health and be a 17 game, 80-100 rec player. ** Waller hasn't played a full season since 2020 and has only played a full season twice. In fact last year was the most games he has played in a season since 2020.
Even if he stays and plays the Giants have to plan on managing his time a ton, he could easily be a Red Zone guy far more than between the 20's and see more obvious passing downs only time to help manage his "availability". That though tends to limit his effectiveness as it becomes very obvious what the option will be with him on the field.
But a low risk gamble that did not work out the way the Giants had hoped. 32 with chronically bad hamstrings. Release him, eat ~$7.4 against the cap but create $6.7 to spend elsewhere. And please draft Ja’Taveon Sanders in the 2nd round.
Nacuo was a 5th round pick. The Giants could have still could have drafted him. I don't get your point.
The more lottery tickets you have, the more likely you are going to hit one. Every ticket should be regarded as gold by a team with as many needs as the Giants.
And in this case, there is compounding point that Schoen looked to fill the "big receiver" need with a 31 year old injury prone player, and that was of course going to affect the priority he gave to filling that need in the draft.
Why would trading for a TE with a 3rd round pick preclude them from drafting a WR in the draft?
In fact, they did exactly that with Hyatt.
Just admit it, saying they missed on Nacua, a 5th rounder, because they traded their 3rd rounder is silly, and also complete hindsight bias.
There's no logical connection between trading the 3rd round pick and what another team did 2 rounds later.
The real problem is the Giants could have picked a player who was younger, healthier, and much cheaper with the top 100 pick. And the odds of that player developing into a contributor seems higher than a player with a chronic health condition.
There's no logical connection between trading the 3rd round pick and what another team did 2 rounds later.
The real problem is the Giants could have picked a player who was younger, healthier, and much cheaper with the top 100 pick. And the odds of that player developing into a contributor seems higher than a player with a chronic health condition.
There's no logical connection between trading the 3rd round pick and what another team did 2 rounds later.
The real problem is the Giants could have picked a player who was younger, healthier, and much cheaper with the top 100 pick. And the odds of that player developing into a contributor seems higher than a player with a chronic health condition.
Honestly I think the real problem was the Giants coaches having him ball out so much in training camp. He was almost 31 and coming off of two years with bad hamstrings, and his workload was crazy high. They should have managed him, like they managed Saquon in the preseason.
But they didn't, and sure enough he aggravated his hamstrings before the season even started.
in August the trade looked like gold. Now it looks like shit.
If he's seriously on the fence, the last thing the team needs is him quitting in late August. Move on.
The problem with this team is that the front office sells us these fabulous gets that turn into shit almost immediately. This includes the draft picks that have gone bust. So tell me, do you trust the intelligence of the FO to actually pick a franchise QB at this point? Highly unlikely imho
The Waller trade is a pretty decent sized bad look for Schoen.
the below is the relevant section of the CBA re retirements, the giants never paid waller an upfront signing bonus, they restructured base salary into bonus, so i dont think the prorated hits in the future on his deal would be subject to forfeiture (and if they are that is a terrible deal for players, which is why i dont think it's enforceable).
the only other things i can think of are:
1. the giants think they can trade him but waller doesnt want to play somewhere he doesnt choose (so he's threatening retirement). i doubt they could trade his 10.5m anyway but who knows.
2. injury grievance - i guess its possible waller could file an injury grievance if they cut him as logan ryan did a few years ago?
Quote:
(a)(vi)
Retirement. Should a Forfeitable Breach occur due to player’s retirement, a Club may demand repayment of all Forfeitable Salary Allocations attributable to the proportionate amount, if any, for the present year and the Forfeitable Salary Allocations for future years. If the player fails to repay such amounts, then the Club may seek an award from the System Arbitrator pursuant to Article 15, for repayment of all Forfeitable Salary Allocations attributable to present and future years. Repayment of Forfeitable Salary Allocations attributable to future League Years must be made by June 1st of each League Year for which each Forfeitable Salary Allocation is attributable. If the player returns to play for the Club in the subsequent season, then the Club must either (a) take the player back under his existing contract with no forfeiture of the remaining Forfeitable Salary Allocations, or (b) release the player and seek repayment of any remaining Forfeitable Salary Allocations for future League Years.
(b)
Forfeitable Salary Allocations. For the purposes of this Section, the term “Forfeitable Salary Allocations” means: (i) for signing bonus, the Salary Cap allocation for the player’s signing bonus for that League Year; and (ii) for roster, option and reporting bonuses that are earned in the same League Year as the Forfeitable Breach, the allocation of such bonus for that League Year, out of the total amount of such bonus as allocated over that League Year and any remaining League Years in the player’s contract, notwithstanding the Salary Cap treatment of such bonuses. For example, without limitation, if a player has a $1 million roster bonus that is earned in the same year the player committed a Forfeitable Breach, then, regardless of when that roster bonus is to be paid, that bonus is attributable to the same year as the Forfeitable Breach; if the player has that year and one additional year remaining on his contract, then $500,000 of the roster bonus will be allocated to each of those years for purposes of any potential forfeiture calculation. If the Forfeitable Breach occurs in the second League Year in this example (i.e., the League Year after the roster bonus in this example is earned), there shall be no forfeiture of any portion of such roster bonus.
perception from the Giants "crack" medical staff.
His hamstring/nerve issue is chronic and degenerative. Apparently, they didn't either diagnose it that way or worse, didn't realize it.
It's not the quarterback's fault, not Wallers (he's got plenty left as well as the "ganas" (the wannas) to do well. It's that frickin nerve in his leg that can't take the pounding that's the reality of pro football.
I'm sure he doesn't want to face it, nor the Giants, but that is the cold hard fact.
Raiders knew what they were doing when they dealt him.
I don’t get how it can be chronic. It’s a strain. Work on it strengthen it gain flexibility and move on. From what I can see he’s very tight. He’s really not fluid. Anyone else notice he bobbled every single pass thrown his way. He rarely actually catches the ball with his hands. Very disappointing player and I’m taking the QB play etc into account. We need a true 2 way TE1 to pair with bellinger who’s a solid TE2. Btw shame Kaden Smith also had career ending injury. He was better than bellinger
If only it were that simple. It's a nerve issue. Without knowing specifics, likely something to do with the sciatic nerve.
Nacuo was a 5th round pick. The Giants could have still could have drafted him. I don't get your point.
The more lottery tickets you have, the more likely you are going to hit one. Every ticket should be regarded as gold by a team with as many needs as the Giants.
And in this case, there is compounding point that Schoen looked to fill the "big receiver" need with a 31 year old injury prone player, and that was of course going to affect the priority he gave to filling that need in the draft.
Yeah, a case of don't let the facts get in the way...I didn't realize he had that many catches.
Personally, I do not care if he stays or retires. If he stays he catches balls. If he retires the Giants save about $11.6 mill.
Bowers should also be a consideration.
Bowers should also be a consideration.
Yes, Bowers in the 3rd round.....
The Giants didn't have to say anything. In fact, even if asked directly they could have shut down the question without a definitive statement in either direction. They chose to say we are not "releasing" Waller. That screams of ok if you are thinking about retiring then we will hold on to you until you do. If not, we expect you to honor your contract.
Overall it means little to me. If he stays, I hope he plays and produces and if he retires well we lost nothing more than salary space (and that can always be adjusted).
Waller was 17th in rec's by a TE (and 17th in targets as well). Logan Thomas who was just released by Washington (told he will be released) was 14th, Tyler Conklin of the Jets 13th..
I wouldn't use that stat as saying look at his production even with a bad hip as we could find that same production in a cheaper player. His injury SEVERLY limited his stats and his playing time. It is unlikely he will suddenly find the fountain of youthful health and be a 17 game, 80-100 rec player. ** Waller hasn't played a full season since 2020 and has only played a full season twice. In fact last year was the most games he has played in a season since 2020.
Even if he stays and plays the Giants have to plan on managing his time a ton, he could easily be a Red Zone guy far more than between the 20's and see more obvious passing downs only time to help manage his "availability". That though tends to limit his effectiveness as it becomes very obvious what the option will be with him on the field.
Well considering he just got married and his wife played for the Vegan WNBA team... im sure he didnt want to get traded across the country..
If he's seriously on the fence, the last thing the team needs is him quitting in late August. Move on.
+1
Quote:
Nacuo was a 5th round pick. The Giants could have still could have drafted him. I don't get your point.
The more lottery tickets you have, the more likely you are going to hit one. Every ticket should be regarded as gold by a team with as many needs as the Giants.
And in this case, there is compounding point that Schoen looked to fill the "big receiver" need with a 31 year old injury prone player, and that was of course going to affect the priority he gave to filling that need in the draft.
Why would trading for a TE with a 3rd round pick preclude them from drafting a WR in the draft?
In fact, they did exactly that with Hyatt.
Just admit it, saying they missed on Nacua, a 5th rounder, because they traded their 3rd rounder is silly, and also complete hindsight bias.
The real problem is the Giants could have picked a player who was younger, healthier, and much cheaper with the top 100 pick. And the odds of that player developing into a contributor seems higher than a player with a chronic health condition.
The real problem is the Giants could have picked a player who was younger, healthier, and much cheaper with the top 100 pick. And the odds of that player developing into a contributor seems higher than a player with a chronic health condition.
Right on. Totally with you on this.
The real problem is the Giants could have picked a player who was younger, healthier, and much cheaper with the top 100 pick. And the odds of that player developing into a contributor seems higher than a player with a chronic health condition.
Honestly I think the real problem was the Giants coaches having him ball out so much in training camp. He was almost 31 and coming off of two years with bad hamstrings, and his workload was crazy high. They should have managed him, like they managed Saquon in the preseason.
But they didn't, and sure enough he aggravated his hamstrings before the season even started.
If he's seriously on the fence, the last thing the team needs is him quitting in late August. Move on.
The problem with this team is that the front office sells us these fabulous gets that turn into shit almost immediately. This includes the draft picks that have gone bust. So tell me, do you trust the intelligence of the FO to actually pick a franchise QB at this point? Highly unlikely imho
Bad look?
There isn’t a person at the time who did not love the trade
Sometimes things don’t work out….but bad look is way off base
the only other things i can think of are:
1. the giants think they can trade him but waller doesnt want to play somewhere he doesnt choose (so he's threatening retirement). i doubt they could trade his 10.5m anyway but who knows.
2. injury grievance - i guess its possible waller could file an injury grievance if they cut him as logan ryan did a few years ago?
(a)(vi)
Retirement. Should a Forfeitable Breach occur due to player’s retirement, a Club may demand repayment of all Forfeitable Salary Allocations attributable to the proportionate amount, if any, for the present year and the Forfeitable Salary Allocations for future years. If the player fails to repay such amounts, then the Club may seek an award from the System Arbitrator pursuant to Article 15, for repayment of all Forfeitable Salary Allocations attributable to present and future years. Repayment of Forfeitable Salary Allocations attributable to future League Years must be made by June 1st of each League Year for which each Forfeitable Salary Allocation is attributable. If the player returns to play for the Club in the subsequent season, then the Club must either (a) take the player back under his existing contract with no forfeiture of the remaining Forfeitable Salary Allocations, or (b) release the player and seek repayment of any remaining Forfeitable Salary Allocations for future League Years.
(b)
Forfeitable Salary Allocations. For the purposes of this Section, the term “Forfeitable Salary Allocations” means: (i) for signing bonus, the Salary Cap allocation for the player’s signing bonus for that League Year; and (ii) for roster, option and reporting bonuses that are earned in the same League Year as the Forfeitable Breach, the allocation of such bonus for that League Year, out of the total amount of such bonus as allocated over that League Year and any remaining League Years in the player’s contract, notwithstanding the Salary Cap treatment of such bonuses. For example, without limitation, if a player has a $1 million roster bonus that is earned in the same year the player committed a Forfeitable Breach, then, regardless of when that roster bonus is to be paid, that bonus is attributable to the same year as the Forfeitable Breach; if the player has that year and one additional year remaining on his contract, then $500,000 of the roster bonus will be allocated to each of those years for purposes of any potential forfeiture calculation. If the Forfeitable Breach occurs in the second League Year in this example (i.e., the League Year after the roster bonus in this example is earned), there shall be no forfeiture of any portion of such roster bonus.
And Waller did at least as much if not more in 1 year than Kenny G did in 2:
Golladay in 2 years 43-602-1
Waller in 1 year 52-552-1
His hamstring/nerve issue is chronic and degenerative. Apparently, they didn't either diagnose it that way or worse, didn't realize it.
It's not the quarterback's fault, not Wallers (he's got plenty left as well as the "ganas" (the wannas) to do well. It's that frickin nerve in his leg that can't take the pounding that's the reality of pro football.
I'm sure he doesn't want to face it, nor the Giants, but that is the cold hard fact.
Quote:
it's chronic and it's not going to get better.
Raiders knew what they were doing when they dealt him.
I don’t get how it can be chronic. It’s a strain. Work on it strengthen it gain flexibility and move on. From what I can see he’s very tight. He’s really not fluid. Anyone else notice he bobbled every single pass thrown his way. He rarely actually catches the ball with his hands. Very disappointing player and I’m taking the QB play etc into account. We need a true 2 way TE1 to pair with bellinger who’s a solid TE2. Btw shame Kaden Smith also had career ending injury. He was better than bellinger
If only it were that simple. It's a nerve issue. Without knowing specifics, likely something to do with the sciatic nerve.