QB Drake Maye, North Carolina Tar Heels (6'4" 230 lbs.)
2 time team Captain. Size and arm talent jump off the screen. Ideal QB frame. Big, burly pro-style QB. Keeps his eyes downfield, rides the pocket. Has the arm strength to throw off his back foot into tight windows. Pinpoint accuracy on deep throws. Despite being a pocket QB, he still managed to rush for 1,100 yards and 16 TDs in 2 years. His confidence gets him into trouble sometimes with INTs. Inexperienced - only started 2 years. 21 years old. Athletic bloodlines - his father played football at UNC, 2 of his brothers played basketball at UNC and another brother won a NCAA baseball title at Florida. All-Academic ACC.
He's also being mentored by Eli Manning (and Phil Rivers) during the draft process. This comment he made about Rivers stood out:
| “I think the biggest thing about Phil is he stayed healthy for so long in his career,” Maye said. “Such a long career and I think he played 17 games for like for some crazy stat, 15 straight years or something. So I just pick his brain on how he stayed healthy. He’s a big dude like me so just trying to kind of find ways to relate to him.” |
That's a guy focused on the details.
I've seen this guy compared to Justin Herbert, Josh Allen and Aaron Rodgers. If he's somewhere in that group, sign me the F up.
Then, there was this note from Big Blue View:
| The Giants have shown particular interest in Drake Maye, with Schoen (or the Giants' scouts) attending four different North Carolina games of which we were aware. |
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Garafalo thinks the Giants are looking to trade up for a QB, and another source came out saying the Giants and Falcons were looking to trade up for different QBs.
Longtime Giants fans know what I'm talking about - the Giants have a type. Clean upbringing, physically big, strong arm. Can throw outdoors in the Northeast. Classy, can handle the significant off-field stuff, corporate functions. Tell me Maye doesn't check every box.
Caleb (character red flags) and Daniels (jitterbug, slight frame) are ultra-talented but they do not fit the Giants profile. I can easily see other teams enamoured with them, while the Giants like Maye. In fact I'm predicting it after reading the tea leaves. And they are probably hoping they can trade up to #3 after CW and Daniels go 1/2.
Problem is I'm not sure they can get him.
Problem is I'm not sure they can get him.
Agreed. I think they may want to move up, but the cost to do so will not surprisingly be prohibitive.
McCarthy wont cost a trade up (although keep a sharp eye on Denver)
Sy:McCarthy vs Maye - ( New Window )
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McCarthy wont cost a trade up (although keep a sharp eye on Denver) Sy:McCarthy vs Maye - ( New Window )
I think we could ironically ultimately trade up with JJM's old coach Jim Harbaugh to pick his son of a QB. If I had to predict how the draft will go:
QBs 1-2-3 (I think Commies trade up with Bears for CW, Bears take Daniels, Patriots take Maye), then AZ takes MHJ then we trade up with the Chargers for a future 3rd and 5th or something like that). Chargers then take Alt or Nabers after we take JJM.
In my dream world the Bears take CW, Redskins take Maye and we trade up to 3 for Jayden Daniels but I don't think this is realistic or likely.
His family tree is full of athletes...
Problem is I'm not sure they can get him.
With so much uncertainty this draft can be really boring, or a free for all with moves
What the Giants need to be wary of, is WAS. If they want Maye, there is nothing NYG can do but trade up to #1. And the Bears may not want to drop to #6 and lose out on CW.
If that happens the Giants can’t stop WAS from “stealing” their QB and having to play against him twice a year.
High stakes game for Schoen. Might be time to move a mountain.
If the Giants feel the same way you do, then I would move up to 4 to get him. If not then Atlanta, Raiders, and Denver might be willing to do so because I see a drop off after McCarthy.
That is UFB to me...
I believe that, but if QBs go 1-2-3 I don't think AZ would trade down and pass on MHJ. Either way, we are in an ideal spot to trade up because whether it's the Patriots, Cardinals or Chargers we can allow them to trade down while still getting a blue chip guy. In this draft I don't think any other qb needy teams can offer that. If Schoen wants a qb available at 3, 4 or 5 he can ensure he wins that bidding war 100%.
Like the DJFC, there is a JJFC slowly building momentum here at BBI. They are very protective of JJMac.
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is a real wild card.
..
Oh boy
Problem is I'm not sure they can get him.
Agreed. No chance he's available at 6.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
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is a real wild card.
Like the DJFC, there is a JJFC slowly building momentum here at BBI. They are very protective of JJMac.
Oh, for chrissakes.....
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Two years?
I know that's where the NFL is going, but damn.
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Two years?
I know that's where the NFL is going, but damn.
It's doesn't mean you have to dump the guy, but be open to opportunities. After two years you've seen the guy play hopefully 34 games, but you're still close enough to his college days that someone might still love the guy enough to give up a lot. You also might have an opportunity to draft another prospect - like the Giants did with Herbert, Hurts, and Love - passing on all of them.
As a current example, look at Jacksonville. They should absolutely be looking at options; open to trading Lawrence and also open to drafting a guy if they like someone available.
Two years. You still have options at that point. Once you get to 3 or 4 they reduce in number, as they have got the Giants clinging to Jones.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
This. As Jordan said, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Take a freakin' shot.
You'd move on from Lawrence?
I'm not sure I like where this is going.
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In comment 16413553 Go Terps said:
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Two years?
I know that's where the NFL is going, but damn.
It's doesn't mean you have to dump the guy, but be open to opportunities. After two years you've seen the guy play hopefully 34 games, but you're still close enough to his college days that someone might still love the guy enough to give up a lot. You also might have an opportunity to draft another prospect - like the Giants did with Herbert, Hurts, and Love - passing on all of them.
As a current example, look at Jacksonville. They should absolutely be looking at options; open to trading Lawrence and also open to drafting a guy if they like someone available.
Two years. You still have options at that point. Once you get to 3 or 4 they reduce in number, as they have got the Giants clinging to Jones.
That's fair. I'd imagine giving the guy 3 years if he sat for a good chunk of year 1 would be fair.
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Two years?
I know that's where the NFL is going, but damn.
I think the magic number is 3, when the 5th year option decision needs to be made. Z. Wilson may be hot new york trash, but NYJ absolutely did the right thing with the Darnold trade, especially the timing
You'd move on from Lawrence?
I'm not sure I like where this is going.
It didn't really take for years for Eli. The Giants went 11-5 and won the division in his second year with a high scoring offense. You could see there was quality there.
Personally I'd like for QB to become a more transient position. Too many mediocre QBs get long leashes because their GMs want to be proven right. It results in a lot of bad football.
Make these guys earn their jobs. Stroud sure did.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
LOL you're a trip...
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It took four years for Eli.
You'd move on from Lawrence?
I'm not sure I like where this is going.
It didn't really take for years for Eli. The Giants went 11-5 and won the division in his second year with a high scoring offense. You could see there was quality there.
Personally I'd like for QB to become a more transient position. Too many mediocre QBs get long leashes because their GMs want to be proven right. It results in a lot of bad football.
Make these guys earn their jobs. Stroud sure did.
I think that would lead to better football, but I think the incumbent mediocre qb syndrome in the NFL might have more to do with owner profits than GMs trying to be proven right. Putting out a semi competitive product generates profits, being stuck in QB limbo seems to severely hinder profits. Look at the Panthers in the middle of football country their stadium is empty, they were giving away tickets!
I was fine with Eli. Fire up the search engine and look! :)
Keep in mind also that was before the CBA that changed the rookie pay scale. The Giants' investment in Eli was colossal. If they draft McCarthy at #6 the investment really isn't that large.
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is a real wild card.
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Peppers! good to hear from you............but ohhhh boy.
Each situation is different with QBs, but I think you are spot on with Pickett. If I'm the Steelers, it would be smart to start considering another solution.
They have talent at all the skill positions and the OL is better. I know they tried to blame Canada, but Pickett looked like a wink link to me...
2. Keep trying to draft the QB until you know you've got him
I'm as confident in this as anything I've ever posted on this board.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Lol. Hey let’s just have a new quarterback every 2-3 years until we draft John Elway.
He's saying you should know by then. If you don't know for sure, then you need to be open to bringing in competition. Especially if you're drafting high. QB is the most important position in sports by a mile. Worst case, you have tradeable assets on rookie contracts.
It's a 180 from where this team is now, and how it treats QBs.
I wonder who that team is. Vikings, Broncos, Giants?
2. Keep trying to draft the QB until you know you've got him
I'm as confident in this as anything I've ever posted on this board.
You said Malik Willis should be drafted by the Giants at 5th overall.
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1. Don't feel overcommitted to the QB you draft
2. Keep trying to draft the QB until you know you've got him
I'm as confident in this as anything I've ever posted on this board.
You said Malik Willis should be drafted by the Giants at 5th overall.
And you still don't understand that would have been a better outcome than what actually occurred.
I'm comfortable with my track record on this board.
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is a real wild card.
..
I’m intrigued as to what this could possibly mean.
I remember watching the rose bowl and this play stuck out to me as just a little dose of the athleticism he possesses.
Personally, I’d be happy with any of the top 4 QBs at 6.
Nix later in the 1st and Penix late 1st/early 2nd.
Link - ( New Window )
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Lol. Hey let’s just have a new quarterback every 2-3 years until we draft John Elway.
Yes actually. If you don’t know if your QB is the guy after 3 years you should start bringing in replacements. The Giants would have been better off because their either wouldn’t have had to pay Jones or would have at a minimum better QB depth.
You wouldn’t give any other player on the roster 6 years to prove themselves
Link - ( New Window )
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Lol. Hey let’s just have a new quarterback every 2-3 years until we draft John Elway.
It's not a bad strategy. You don't spend first rounders on the position every year, obviously, but if you haven't proven you have the guy, try another. It's how the 49ers got Brock Purdy, and how the Eagles got Hurts.
Speaking of the latter, don't be surprised if they draft a QB.
Clearly, I don't have that...
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In comment 16413501 Eric from BBI said:
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is a real wild card.
Like the DJFC, there is a JJFC slowly building momentum here at BBI. They are very protective of JJMac.
Oh, for chrissakes.....
Hes really the worst.... Him and his being "educated" by Pat Kirwan. I dont know if there is a bigger blowhard on the site.
@BenStandig
Some high-ranking team evaluators believe J.J. McCarthy is "going to go higher than most people think. Right now, my guess is he’ll be in play at two or three.”
Link - ( New Window )
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Ben Standig
@BenStandig
Some high-ranking team evaluators believe J.J. McCarthy is "going to go higher than most people think. Right now, my guess is he’ll be in play at two or three.”
Link - ( New Window )
Thanks - I'm aware.
I've also heard/read that some teams love him as a prospect and some teams see him as nothing more than a second/third day project.
Outside of Merrill Hodge, you don't hear that about CW, JD and DM.
I don't disagree, but McCarthy is significantly younger than guys like Penix & Nix.
The upside with Jones was supposed to be his floor and being coached by Cutcliffe. It wasn't the case. I think a guy like Nix should need less developing than McCarthy just based on his number of snaps.
Is telling the truth with .. part of the genius?
people need to remember it took josh allen 3 years to be josh allen. some are busts within 2 years but every player and situation is different. especially when it comes to 21 year olds who only spent 3 years in college.
people need to remember it took josh allen 3 years to be josh allen. some are busts within 2 years but every player and situation is different. especially when it comes to 21 year olds who only spent 3 years in college.
I think drafting McCarthy while letting him sit behind Jones for at least the early part of the season is appealing to the Giants.
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i think him or maye are going to be the pick and those are probably my 2 preferences.
people need to remember it took josh allen 3 years to be josh allen. some are busts within 2 years but every player and situation is different. especially when it comes to 21 year olds who only spent 3 years in college.
I think drafting McCarthy while letting him sit behind Jones for at least the early part of the season is appealing to the Giants.
i know they are talking up jones recovery but whoever they pick may not have that luxury.
jjm is the most physically underdeveloped bc of his age but having played in a pro style offense for harbough he may be the most mentally ready to be an NFL qb right away. michigan played every one of those playoff games like nfl playoff games. riley's offense has translated well so talent wise it's probably caleb but there's enough immaturity smoke it wouldnt surprise me if he struggles out of the gate.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
This times a million. Teams--like the Giants--are stuck in the stone ages in terms of evaluating the QB position.
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In comment 16413678 Eric on Li said:
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i think him or maye are going to be the pick and those are probably my 2 preferences.
people need to remember it took josh allen 3 years to be josh allen. some are busts within 2 years but every player and situation is different. especially when it comes to 21 year olds who only spent 3 years in college.
I think drafting McCarthy while letting him sit behind Jones for at least the early part of the season is appealing to the Giants.
i know they are talking up jones recovery but whoever they pick may not have that luxury.
jjm is the most physically underdeveloped bc of his age but having played in a pro style offense for harbough he may be the most mentally ready to be an NFL qb right away. michigan played every one of those playoff games like nfl playoff games. riley's offense has translated well so talent wise it's probably caleb but there's enough immaturity smoke it wouldnt surprise me if he struggles out of the gate.
This is actually my biggest concern for McCarthy. The guy still looks like a kid. If he were to have to get behind last year's O line, O would be quite nervous. The ideal scenario is letting him sit for at least most of the year before putting him in. But if Jones is mot ready for camp, it could hinder McC's development getting rocked so early in the season. He's used to playing behind a monster OL and might need some time to get used to the Giants' line
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
This times a million. Teams--like the Giants--are stuck in the stone ages in terms of evaluating the QB position.
They really are. It's astonishing.
The biggest problem is that the GM's job security is often tied to the success of the highly drafted QB. Teams that operate under that model should rethink their approach.
If the Giants draft McCarthy and he doesn't work out, I don't want him to lose his job over it. Drafting a QB was still the right decision!
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
If McCarthy sucks we will not only be needing a new QB, but a new GM and Coach. No way Schoen and Daboll would survive drafting a dud at QB.
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In comment 16413591 Go Terps said:
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1. Don't feel overcommitted to the QB you draft
2. Keep trying to draft the QB until you know you've got him
I'm as confident in this as anything I've ever posted on this board.
You said Malik Willis should be drafted by the Giants at 5th overall.
And you still don't understand that would have been a better outcome than what actually occurred.
I'm comfortable with my track record on this board.
You’re so full of shit. You think Willis would have been a better pick than thibs? Just stop the madness you were wrong on the Willis pick..end of story
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
This times a million. Teams--like the Giants--are stuck in the stone ages in terms of evaluating the QB position.
Not only are the Giants, but many of the fans are as well. So many fans are horrified for drafting a bust at QB, but the issue is paying Jones $40M AAV, not drafting a bust. It was always extremely unlikely that the Giants were going to hit on the first QB drafted high after Eli, it's likely going to take a few swings.
But, even if they draft McCarthy and he doesn't pan out, he's cheap. The Giants maintain flexibility at the position, it's not a big deal. Unfortunately, the QB drafted this year won't provide the full advantage of a rookie contract with Jones on the books in 2024 & 2025, but he'll still be much cheaper.
I think the league needs to rethink the position, there is a ton of desperation for stability even if that means overpaying.
With regards to Jones, I think his age was a big factor in getting his contract. He was 25 when he signed the deal, incredibly only 1 year older than Nix & Penix. 8 years younger than Geno Smith.
Maye dropped off last year from his stellar 2022 but it wasn't some kind of free fall. I do think Maye has some footwork issues but he is the prototypical QB in so many facets, and simply has a special arm that will be highlighted at the NFL level.
I would love for JJ to go in the top couple picks because it may allow the Giants a chance to grab Maye and finally turn this team around. If the Giants come out of this draft with JJ at #6 then I really just think we will have extended the timeline of this team staying as a bottom-feeder.
This^^^. I think someone else mentioned that JJM or Maye fit the Giants "type". JS nor Dabs have drafted a QB here, so who's "type" are we talking about. If it's the owner or other long time execs, then we might be screwed. Heck DJ was Eli's twin aside from of course the actual production on the field.
JJM scares me because he really hasn't shown that he's a top notch QB, and he played at a big program. He appeared to be a game manager. I know it's lying season, but it always amazes me that a player can play 2 or 3 years and be projected to be a 2nd rounder or late 1st and without even working out we are now talking top 5.
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i think him or maye are going to be the pick and those are probably my 2 preferences.
people need to remember it took josh allen 3 years to be josh allen. some are busts within 2 years but every player and situation is different. especially when it comes to 21 year olds who only spent 3 years in college.
I think drafting McCarthy while letting him sit behind Jones for at least the early part of the season is appealing to the Giants.
Bingo
In 2 years, he started all 26 games and accumulated over 9,000 yards and 79 TDs.
The point is, he also has the clean background and upbringing that will make him attractive as a Giants QB candidate.
I really hope someone moves up and drafts JJ. I want no part of DJ part 2 or his fan club that’s already infiltrating this site.
I’m sure he will be a good backup for someone, just not the Giants.
What team did you previously scout for?
Normally, I'd agree with you 100 percent.
But the Giants don't have a QB.
It's not a given they will be in this position (picking sixth with two #2 picks) in a deep QB draft.
If you don't have a QB, you're toast unless you have a roster like the 49ers. And the Giants are years away from that.
2 things:
1 - a couple drafts into this regime i think we can better understand the costs of a trade up. if the total package ends up similar to the picks that they used to draft neal, wandale, ezeudu, jms, isnt that a no-brainer for a qb? some of those guys were really good picks too so that's not cherry picked.
2 - they have a ton of cap room coming up, and even more if they successfully draft a rookie scale QB and move on from jones. how hard is it to spend money on lower level depth free agents better than the list above? the 20m they can save on jones alone could have brought back julian love, signed ashawn robinson, and also an OL like isaac semeulo from philly. you can sign depth starters from FA, what you cant sign are impact players, but this regime hasnt shown an ability to draft impact players beyond round 1 yet.
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get, for every Stroud there are countless failures or mediocrity.
2 things:
1 - a couple drafts into this regime i think we can better understand the costs of a trade up. if the total package ends up similar to the picks that they used to draft neal, wandale, ezeudu, jms, isnt that a no-brainer for a qb? some of those guys were really good picks too so that's not cherry picked.
2 - they have a ton of cap room coming up, and even more if they successfully draft a rookie scale QB and move on from jones. how hard is it to spend money on lower level depth free agents better than the list above? the 20m they can save on jones alone could have brought back julian love, signed ashawn robinson, and also an OL like isaac semeulo from philly. you can sign depth starters from FA, what you cant sign are impact players, but this regime hasnt shown an ability to draft impact players beyond round 1 yet.
This. I don’t understand the “we have too many holes to trade up” argument. If you look at the Giants last 6 2nd and 3rd rounders there’s nothing I wouldn’t trade for a franchise QB.
Giving up a 2025 first hurts, but if you hit on the franchise QB it’s not going to matter
end of day coaches/gms live and die on their evaluations. they are going to get the majority wrong because everyone gets the majority wrong in both draft and FA. if you survive you get the big ones right and you cant get the big ones right if you are afraid to take chances. this regime is in the jobs they are in because of a chance they took on josh allen and their ability to help develop him to success. nothing was going to stand in their way of taking that chance again if the opportunity presented itself. the narratives otherwise are fanfic.
That can easily be filled via free agency. Plus they might have to trade up next for a QB, and possibly from a spot further down in the draft order, which means giving up more picks.
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In comment 16413553 Go Terps said:
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Lol. Hey let’s just have a new quarterback every 2-3 years until we draft John Elway.
Yes actually. If you don’t know if your QB is the guy after 3 years you should start bringing in replacements. The Giants would have been better off because their either wouldn’t have had to pay Jones or would have at a minimum better QB depth.
You wouldn’t give any other player on the roster 6 years to prove themselves
+1
This should be a plus for McCarthy then. Obviously one never knows how anyone will respond but he played at Michigan, under enormous pressure, an NFL HC and a VERY intense one at that in Harbaugh with hard coaching and he handled a pretty major scandal with the sign stealing thing and still delivered a National Championship.
This should be a plus for McCarthy then. Obviously one never knows how anyone will respond but he played at Michigan, under enormous pressure, an NFL HC and a VERY intense one at that in Harbaugh with hard coaching and he handled a pretty major scandal with the sign stealing thing and still delivered a National Championship.
What impressed you how McCarthy handled the sign stealing scandal?
There is risk at any of the draft slots and at any position. But it is expensive to move up and that cannot be taken lightly.
But they are going nowhere in the future without an upgrade at QB. And they really have to do something to "change the conversation" with this franchise. And if you can move up, this isn't a bad draft to try and do it being fairly close and with some very talented prospects at QB.
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
If McCarthy sucks we will not only be needing a new QB, but a new GM and Coach. No way Schoen and Daboll would survive drafting a dud at QB.
So do nothing and stick with Jones for the next 2 years? You actually think they can turn this team into an actual contender (not a watered-down playoff wildcard) in 2 years with Daniel Jones at QB? Not happening. You think Schoen and/or Daboll would survive that?
This is the year to get the QB. It's a much better class than is projected next season. They are positioned so that it wouldn't take an incredibly enormous amount to move up a spot or two to ensure they get a guy they believe in (that assumes they would like the #3 or #4 guy be it Maye or JJ).
This thinking that they shouldn't go QB because the pick might bust is ludicrous! Any pick can bust! Not picking a QB due to being afraid of whiffing is Schoen and Daboll's surest ticket to the unemployment line.
He's saying you should know by then. If you don't know for sure, then you need to be open to bringing in competition. Especially if you're drafting high. QB is the most important position in sports by a mile. Worst case, you have tradeable assets on rookie contracts.
It's a 180 from where this team is now, and how it treats QBs.
The only inherent flaw in that philosophy is that it doesn't aid the team's who think they *do* know they've got their QB, when they very likely don't.
Our team may be one of them.
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In comment 16413605 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16413591 Go Terps said:
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1. Don't feel overcommitted to the QB you draft
2. Keep trying to draft the QB until you know you've got him
I'm as confident in this as anything I've ever posted on this board.
You said Malik Willis should be drafted by the Giants at 5th overall.
And you still don't understand that would have been a better outcome than what actually occurred.
I'm comfortable with my track record on this board.
You’re so full of shit. You think Willis would have been a better pick than thibs? Just stop the madness you were wrong on the Willis pick..end of story
I've explained many times why drafting Willis would have been preferable to sticking with Jones and playing him.
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In comment 16413605 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16413591 Go Terps said:
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1. Don't feel overcommitted to the QB you draft
2. Keep trying to draft the QB until you know you've got him
I'm as confident in this as anything I've ever posted on this board.
You said Malik Willis should be drafted by the Giants at 5th overall.
And you still don't understand that would have been a better outcome than what actually occurred.
I'm comfortable with my track record on this board.
You’re so full of shit. You think Willis would have been a better pick than thibs? Just stop the madness you were wrong on the Willis pick..end of story
Well here's the thing about that... you can argue that there's more to determining success or failure in a draft than comparing two drafted players and determining which of them better.
So far, Willis hasn't become a starter and Thibodeaux has developed into a pretty good defender. But by the time the Giants emerge from their QB-less existence and become a credible NFL team, Thibodeaux may not even be on the team any longer. Happens all the time.
As a comparison, Maye measured 6-4 1/2 and 225. Pretty close.
As a comparison, Maye measured 6-4 1/2 and 225. Pretty close.
Different frames
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This should be a plus for McCarthy then. Obviously one never knows how anyone will respond but he played at Michigan, under enormous pressure, an NFL HC and a VERY intense one at that in Harbaugh with hard coaching and he handled a pretty major scandal with the sign stealing thing and still delivered a National Championship.
What impressed you how McCarthy handled the sign stealing scandal?
i think it's impressive he won big games without his head coach on the sideline. interim hc and qb both deserve credit for picking up the slack.
16-20 against osu, 0 turnovers, and even with only 20 throws a bunch of them were impressive pro level throws. watch the 3 urban broke down there, i actually think the play he made rolling out right on the sideline was more impressive and it wasnt one of the 3.
It was probably one of the more difficult film sessions for former Ohio State head coach Urban Meyer, but he couldn't deny how impressive JJ McCarthy is - ( New Window )
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In comment 16413553 Go Terps said:
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Two years?
I know that's where the NFL is going, but damn.
It's doesn't mean you have to dump the guy, but be open to opportunities. After two years you've seen the guy play hopefully 34 games, but you're still close enough to his college days that someone might still love the guy enough to give up a lot. You also might have an opportunity to draft another prospect - like the Giants did with Herbert, Hurts, and Love - passing on all of them.
As a current example, look at Jacksonville. They should absolutely be looking at options; open to trading Lawrence and also open to drafting a guy if they like someone available.
Two years. You still have options at that point. Once you get to 3 or 4 they reduce in number, as they have got the Giants clinging to Jones.
lol. Not one of these guys has Lawrence's tools so look for options. Yea. Great take
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In comment 16413557 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16413553 Go Terps said:
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McCarthy isn't my favorite but I want Schoen and Daboll to shoot their shot and start a program behind a new QB. If McCarthy is their guy so be it.
Just don't repeat the Daniel Jones mistake - if it's clear after two years that McCarthy sucks don't be afraid to move on.
Two years?
I know that's where the NFL is going, but damn.
It's doesn't mean you have to dump the guy, but be open to opportunities. After two years you've seen the guy play hopefully 34 games, but you're still close enough to his college days that someone might still love the guy enough to give up a lot. You also might have an opportunity to draft another prospect - like the Giants did with Herbert, Hurts, and Love - passing on all of them.
As a current example, look at Jacksonville. They should absolutely be looking at options; open to trading Lawrence and also open to drafting a guy if they like someone available.
Two years. You still have options at that point. Once you get to 3 or 4 they reduce in number, as they have got the Giants clinging to Jones.
lol. Not one of these guys has Lawrence's tools so look for options. Yea. Great take
in some dark corner of the internet there's a jags board with a hoard of posters raging "how many times are we going to hear he beat herbert 31-30?!?!!?!"
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This should be a plus for McCarthy then. Obviously one never knows how anyone will respond but he played at Michigan, under enormous pressure, an NFL HC and a VERY intense one at that in Harbaugh with hard coaching and he handled a pretty major scandal with the sign stealing thing and still delivered a National Championship.
What impressed you how McCarthy handled the sign stealing scandal?
The guy answered a swarming national media questions, won games without his coaching staff and head coach and went on to win an undefeated national title
Yes that’s impressive. Was not distracted and unfocused as a result of a major swarming media. The team and him didn’t lose focus. That’s all that matters.
No he’s not. Lawrence has been the best prospect since Luck and by a comfortable margin.
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Is a better prospect than Lawrence was, so that’s not true
No he’s not. Lawrence has been the best prospect since Luck and by a comfortable margin.
correct. people forget how hyped he was. he took over for watson and was even more dominant, right as watson was at his peak in the nfl which gave lawrence the appearance of a better prospect coming out (in addition to all his other accolades/abilities). clemson was 37-2 with lawrence as starter including an undefeated national championship, and his only 2 losses were to burrow in the national championship game, the other to fields/osu in the CFBP.
this was sy's write-up on him, pretty sure that's his highest grade since luck. burrow was an 87 grade the year before, rosen an 89 in 2018, bryce an 83/stroud an 82 last year. sy is just 1 expert, but this is how i remember the consensus.
Grade: 95
Summary: Junior entry from Cartersville, Georgia. Three-year starter that earned postseason ACC honors all three seasons. He finished 2nd Team All ACC and won the conference rookie of the year award in 2018 before finishing 1st Team All ACC in both 2019 and 2020. Lawrence was also a 3rd Team All American in 2020 and Heisman finalist. The former #1 high school recruit certainly delivered, winning a National Championship as a true freshman and making it back to the big game in 2019. Lawrence has been destined for the #1 pick in the draft for years. He checks all the boxes when it comes to both the on and off field requirements of a franchise QB. His arm talent and precision are top tier, he is an outstanding athlete, and he is a sound decision maker. His slow heartbeat and confident aura will elevate those around him from day one. He is one of the few that will enter the league with legitimate All-Pro expectations.
*I really think Lawrence could have come out after the 2018 season and been the first pick. This kid is a pure gamer in every sense of the word. Yes, his tools are top notch (passing and rushing), his intelligence is top notch, his approach is top notch. However, what do I like most? He brings his level of play to another level when it matters most. I respect that in a quarterback more than anything. It is a rare trait, and it is even more rare that these intangibles are attached to such a talent-filled player. The fluff about him not loving the game is complete nonsense and was created by low level humans that work in the media. Not even going to address that.
lawrences nfl.com grade was 7.4 which is "perenial all pro", calebs is current a 6.76, which is slightly behind bryce youngs 6.82 last year and slightly ahead of strouds 6.7. burrow was a 7.07. kyler was a 6.8, baker was a 6.7, so caleb is right in range with the other lincoln riley 1oa's and a more typical 1oa type prospect. lawrence at the time was viewed beyond that. there was no drake maye 1a/1b discussion at any point in his college career - he was the guy in his class from 18-21.
Burrow was less hyped.
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In comment 16413605 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16413591 Go Terps said:
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1. Don't feel overcommitted to the QB you draft
2. Keep trying to draft the QB until you know you've got him
I'm as confident in this as anything I've ever posted on this board.
You said Malik Willis should be drafted by the Giants at 5th overall.
And you still don't understand that would have been a better outcome than what actually occurred.
I'm comfortable with my track record on this board.
You’re so full of shit. You think Willis would have been a better pick than thibs? Just stop the madness you were wrong on the Willis pick..end of story
That’s not what he’s saying, what he’s saying is that picking Willis would have meant they wouldn’t have signed Jones for $85M guaranteed. Yes, Willis hasn’t panned out, but the problem isn’t picking a QB who doesn’t work out, it’s sticking with a QB who hasn’t worked out.
And the obsession with GT’s miss3s borders on absurdity. EVERYONE misses on picks, if you don’t believe so, check Sy’s QB draft evaluation from 2018. Even the best evaluators get things wrong, why we should hold a BBI poster to a higher standard is pretty weird.
I think JJ is our guy too and I think it will end up happening with a slight trade up with the Chargers. I think Schoen would trade up with the Cardinals if he had to, but I don't think they will pass up the surefire generational talent in MHJ.
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In comment 16414577 ajr2456 said:
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Is a better prospect than Lawrence was, so that’s not true
No he’s not. Lawrence has been the best prospect since Luck and by a comfortable margin.
correct. people forget how hyped he was. he took over for watson and was even more dominant, right as watson was at his peak in the nfl which gave lawrence the appearance of a better prospect coming out (in addition to all his other accolades/abilities). clemson was 37-2 with lawrence as starter including an undefeated national championship, and his only 2 losses were to burrow in the national championship game, the other to fields/osu in the CFBP.
this was sy's write-up on him, pretty sure that's his highest grade since luck. burrow was an 87 grade the year before, rosen an 89 in 2018, bryce an 83/stroud an 82 last year. sy is just 1 expert, but this is how i remember the consensus.
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1. Trevor Lawrence / Clemson / 6’6-213
Grade: 95
Summary: Junior entry from Cartersville, Georgia. Three-year starter that earned postseason ACC honors all three seasons. He finished 2nd Team All ACC and won the conference rookie of the year award in 2018 before finishing 1st Team All ACC in both 2019 and 2020. Lawrence was also a 3rd Team All American in 2020 and Heisman finalist. The former #1 high school recruit certainly delivered, winning a National Championship as a true freshman and making it back to the big game in 2019. Lawrence has been destined for the #1 pick in the draft for years. He checks all the boxes when it comes to both the on and off field requirements of a franchise QB. His arm talent and precision are top tier, he is an outstanding athlete, and he is a sound decision maker. His slow heartbeat and confident aura will elevate those around him from day one. He is one of the few that will enter the league with legitimate All-Pro expectations.
*I really think Lawrence could have come out after the 2018 season and been the first pick. This kid is a pure gamer in every sense of the word. Yes, his tools are top notch (passing and rushing), his intelligence is top notch, his approach is top notch. However, what do I like most? He brings his level of play to another level when it matters most. I respect that in a quarterback more than anything. It is a rare trait, and it is even more rare that these intangibles are attached to such a talent-filled player. The fluff about him not loving the game is complete nonsense and was created by low level humans that work in the media. Not even going to address that.
lawrences nfl.com grade was 7.4 which is "perenial all pro", calebs is current a 6.76, which is slightly behind bryce youngs 6.82 last year and slightly ahead of strouds 6.7. burrow was a 7.07. kyler was a 6.8, baker was a 6.7, so caleb is right in range with the other lincoln riley 1oa's and a more typical 1oa type prospect. lawrence at the time was viewed beyond that. there was no drake maye 1a/1b discussion at any point in his college career - he was the guy in his class from 18-21.
The guy you are arguing with is an agent. A current one who just left the combine with his client. Im pretty sure he has some pretty tied in insight to what people around the league are saying about CW.
Not trying to start a fight, nor diminish Sy, but arguing with ajr seems pretty silly. Not sure the peck8ng order, but I have a feeling teams talk to agents more openly than scouts who have a podcast.
The guy you are arguing with is an agent. A current one who just left the combine with his client.
If he's an agent (he's claimed that before, but color me skeptical), then I feel sorry for his clients...
The guy you are arguing with is an agent. A current one who just left the combine with his client. Im pretty sure he has some pretty tied in insight to what people around the league are saying about CW.
we know he mentions it on a daily basis - being an agent doesnt mean someones intel is always correct. in january of last year he said he was hearing for weeks jones was getting 2 years 25-30m a few weeks later schoen said they hadnt even started negotiations yet. there were plenty of credible professional opinions that assessed lawrence as a better than usual 1oa QB that werent anonymous on a message board.
here are quotes bob mcginn had directly from NFL scouts as he does every year - there is literally nobody more accurate or well sourced with the draft in the last 3 decades than him:
“He lacks for no physical traits,” said one veteran evaluator. “He’s as close to a sure thing as you can have.”
And the obsession with GT’s miss3s borders on absurdity. EVERYONE misses on picks, if you don’t believe so, check Sy’s QB draft evaluation from 2018. Even the best evaluators get things wrong, why we should hold a BBI poster to a higher standard is pretty weird.
It isn't that he's wrong - as you pointed out, EVERYONE is wrong. Even the experts. A lot. People are "obsessed" (as you say) with his misses because he REFUSES TO EVER ADMIT IT!
If he just said "yeah, Willis with the 5 pick would have been a disaster and set the franchise back several years", no one would care. Again - everyone is wrong a lot.
It's his holier than thou, "I'm always right" attitude. While I give him credit for standing his ground and defending his point, he does so even when he's clear he's wrong; he never concedes. That's not being stubborn, that's just being an asshole. He can't just admit a mistake and move the fuck on.
Just ask him about his feelings about Plaxico. He thinks Plaxico is an asshole and NEVER has given him ANY credit for the things he did for the team in the 2007 SB run. NOT ONCE. Sure, it can be argued that 2008 repeat was fucked up when he shot himself - and that's a fair argument. But the fact is, they don't even sniff the SB without him. Hell, they might not even have made the playoffs.
But sadly, Terps can't bring himself to say "yeah, Plax is a douchebag and I hate him with the white hot intensity of 1,000 suns, but he deserves a ton of credit in helping NYG make the plays and win the Superbowl".
THAT is why people throw mistakes in his face, time and time again.
Yeah well he's welcome to start playing that way anytime.
This ain't good enough.
there is no undisputed data set when it comes to the draft. even teams are going to have grades on players that differ from each other. there are some sources who have been more accurate over a long time horizon than others (like bob mcginn) but an aggregate of whatever the 10 best data sets are is probably the best anyone is going to do.
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And the obsession with GT’s miss3s borders on absurdity. EVERYONE misses on picks, if you don’t believe so, check Sy’s QB draft evaluation from 2018. Even the best evaluators get things wrong, why we should hold a BBI poster to a higher standard is pretty weird.
It isn't that he's wrong - as you pointed out, EVERYONE is wrong. Even the experts. A lot. People are "obsessed" (as you say) with his misses because he REFUSES TO EVER ADMIT IT!
If he just said "yeah, Willis with the 5 pick would have been a disaster and set the franchise back several years", no one would care. Again - everyone is wrong a lot.
It's his holier than thou, "I'm always right" attitude. While I give him credit for standing his ground and defending his point, he does so even when he's clear he's wrong; he never concedes. That's not being stubborn, that's just being an asshole. He can't just admit a mistake and move the fuck on.
Just ask him about his feelings about Plaxico. He thinks Plaxico is an asshole and NEVER has given him ANY credit for the things he did for the team in the 2007 SB run. NOT ONCE. Sure, it can be argued that 2008 repeat was fucked up when he shot himself - and that's a fair argument. But the fact is, they don't even sniff the SB without him. Hell, they might not even have made the playoffs.
But sadly, Terps can't bring himself to say "yeah, Plax is a douchebag and I hate him with the white hot intensity of 1,000 suns, but he deserves a ton of credit in helping NYG make the plays and win the Superbowl".
THAT is why people throw mistakes in his face, time and time again.
the willis thing is like an andy kaufman sketch. he has been unable to show any ability to pass whatsoever, which is why most of the league passed on him 3x. as it turns out even bottom feeders like davis webb in 2022 and tommy cutlets in 2023 were better prospects to carry in those respective seasons - and neither one of them would have cost the team thibodeaux who is a good player at a premium position.
the only thing more outlandish than suggesting they'd be better off today having drafted willis over thibs is that anyone actually believes that.
I don't follow CFB the way you guys do, but my recollection now is that Lawrence had the faster hype train.
Lawrence had a great second season and was on his way to another one until he got injured and collapsed down the stretch. He isn't top five, but he's in that second tier.
Willis is awful, I can't believe how terrible he's looked in the NFL.
ESPN - ( New Window )
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Obviously don't watch the Jaguars much. He has it all.
Yeah well he's welcome to start playing that way anytime.
This ain't good enough.
That comparison is scary.
But that's where the eye-test comes in for me. While he hasn't lived him to his immense hype, I think Lawrence looks many times over like an NFL QB compared to Jones.
I think you and have discussed this before, but I didn't think Lawrence looked that great his final year at Clemson. His ball looked like it had less zip and he had some real bad misses.
And that was pretty evident the last quarter of the season, he was God awful down the stretch. Cost the Jags a playoff spot for sure.
Jags should seriously consider picking up his 5th year option.
I don't follow CFB the way you guys do, but my recollection now is that Lawrence had the faster hype train.
Lawrence had a great second season and was on his way to another one until he got injured and collapsed down the stretch. He isn't top five, but he's in that second tier.
Willis is awful, I can't believe how terrible he's looked in the NFL. ESPN - ( New Window )
there is always going to be one article or one quote that supports almost any opinion. miller is very good by the way, so that was a credible article but one with some obvious limitations.
for starters it is dated 10/13 ahead of not only the entire draft process, the interviews most importantly, but also the day before the ND game. when that article was written USC was 6-0 ranked 10th in the country, caleb went 1-5 the rest of the year starting with the brutal performance against what was already a 2 loss ND team.
there is no undisputed data set when it comes to the draft. even teams are going to have grades on players that differ from each other.
True. I think Willis is a fabulous example of the media grading and the professional grading being very different.
This is why when someone who works in the industry says Williams is a better prospect than Lawrence, my reaction is to pause and wonder.
I think there stands a chance the league views Williams better than the media does. Or maybe the media viewed Lawrence better than the league did.
Is it splitting hairs when both guys are the best in their respective drafts and get picked first, sure.
If he just said "yeah, Willis with the 5 pick would have been a disaster and set the franchise back several years", no one would care. Again - everyone is wrong a lot.
Why would drafting Willis #5 automatically set any franchise back several years? It doesn't have to be that way. The 9'ers weren't set back several years by choosing (hell, trading up to choose) Trey Lance #2.
It's really such a simple point: if they HAD taken Willis at 5 or 7, they may be a in a better spot than they are now. They would probably have a bad QB, just like they certainly do now, but that bad QB wouldn't occupy such a massive percentage of their salary cap.
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If he just said "yeah, Willis with the 5 pick would have been a disaster and set the franchise back several years", no one would care. Again - everyone is wrong a lot.
Why would drafting Willis #5 automatically set any franchise back several years? It doesn't have to be that way. The 9'ers weren't set back several years by choosing (hell, trading up to choose) Trey Lance #2.
It's really such a simple point: if they HAD taken Willis at 5 or 7, they may be a in a better spot than they are now. They would probably have a bad QB, just like they certainly do now, but that bad QB wouldn't occupy such a massive percentage of their salary cap.
how would malik willis having proved himself incapable in year 1 have changed any other decision the nyg made re QB?
you realize the team that drafted Malik Willis ended up more urgent to find a new QB after his rookie season, not less?
Willis vs. Thibs, I hold a similar view to Go Terps. I wanted the Giants to draft Willis at number 5, and I won't duck that.
The media and many pundits described him as the best QB in the draft and a first round candidate. That felt like a perfectly reasonable wish for the Giants: pick the QB the analysts view as the best.
I'm not convinced the Giants don't end up with both Thibs and Willis if they go QB 5. But that's another topic.
Would I rather the Giants have failed fast with Willis and be in the position to try again vs. investing in Jones? Yes.
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I think "better prospect" is probably based on the data set one is using.
there is no undisputed data set when it comes to the draft. even teams are going to have grades on players that differ from each other.
True. I think Willis is a fabulous example of the media grading and the professional grading being very different.
This is why when someone who works in the industry says Williams is a better prospect than Lawrence, my reaction is to pause and wonder.
I think there stands a chance the league views Williams better than the media does. Or maybe the media viewed Lawrence better than the league did.
Is it splitting hairs when both guys are the best in their respective drafts and get picked first, sure.
the point is valid but malik willis wasn't consensus. he was qb 2 behind pickett most places when draft rolled around. jeremiah had him 26th overall a couple spots behind pickett with Matt Coral, Desmond ridder, and Sam Howell not far behind in his top 51.
the main QB story in 2022 was that it was a very bad QB class (which ended up obviously correct).
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In comment 16415147 BleedBlue46 said:
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Obviously don't watch the Jaguars much. He has it all.
Yeah well he's welcome to start playing that way anytime.
This ain't good enough.
That comparison is scary.
But that's where the eye-test comes in for me. While he hasn't lived him to his immense hype, I think Lawrence looks many times over like an NFL QB compared to Jones.
I think you and have discussed this before, but I didn't think Lawrence looked that great his final year at Clemson. His ball looked like it had less zip and he had some real bad misses.
And that was pretty evident the last quarter of the season, he was God awful down the stretch. Cost the Jags a playoff spot for sure.
Jags should seriously consider picking up his 5th year option.
I think the Jags should seriously consider trading him.
If they call the Bears and offer Lawrence for the #1 pick, do the Bears take it?
the point is valid but malik willis wasn't consensus.
If being the consensus in the media is potential evidence the league agrees, then isn't it more plausible the league views Williams in the same echelon as Lawrence?
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Is it splitting hairs when both guys are the best in their respective drafts and get picked first, sure.
the point is valid but malik willis wasn't consensus.
If being the consensus in the media is potential evidence the league agrees, then isn't it more plausible the league views Williams in the same echelon as Lawrence?
anything is possible, we wont have any definitive proof point because the highest anyone can get drafted is 1st overall. when willis fell to round 3 and kenny pickett was the only 1st round qb, it was clear the league agreed with the media consensus.
as exciting as williams talent is id point you to my response to brett above. after starting 6-0, caleb had a meltdown vs ND and finished the year 1-5. lawrence only lost 2 games in 3 years. i dont know how anyone who watched the ND game cant have a little hesitation with caleb even if he's the best prospect in this draft. whether or not the bad press he's getting is because he didnt hire an agent or because it's real, i think not hiring an agent was a bad decision. not sharing his medicals was an odd decision. once games start none of that may matter but its stuff teams are going to look into they didnt have to w/ lawrence.
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get, for every Stroud there are countless failures or mediocrity.
Normally, I'd agree with you 100 percent.
But the Giants don't have a QB.
It's not a given they will be in this position (picking sixth with two #2 picks) in a deep QB draft.
If you don't have a QB, you're toast unless you have a roster like the 49ers. And the Giants are years away from that.
Well yes, but trading up and fail to draft THAT guy is a huge mistake and will leave us with less assets and a wasted premium draft pick, that the Team wont recover from fast, because they probably will have to giveup next years Pick aswell.
I think the Jags should seriously consider trading him.
If they call the Bears and offer Lawrence for the #1 pick, do the Bears take it?
LOL - why the fuck would anyone trade for a guy who has severely underachieved for the last three years? Especially the bears, who have had their OWN guy underachieve for the last their years? why trade for a QB who was supposedly a "generational talent" who has only two years left before costing big money, when they can reset the clock with a rookie QB who has almost as much upside?
You're the clown who says a team should not be afraid to cut bait on a QB after two years if he isn't flashing, and yet you're advocating that the bears should trade for a guy who has significantly underachieved for THREE years?? When they have the #1 pick??
Holy stupid, batman!
Then again, you're the one who won't admit what a disaster it would have been to take Malik Willis with the FIFTH overall pick, so I'm not suprised...
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I think the Jags should seriously consider trading him.
If they call the Bears and offer Lawrence for the #1 pick, do the Bears take it?
LOL - why the fuck would anyone trade for a guy who has severely underachieved for the last three years? Especially the bears, who have had their OWN guy underachieve for the last their years? why trade for a QB who was supposedly a "generational talent" who has only two years left before costing big money, when they can reset the clock with a rookie QB who has almost as much upside?
You're the clown who says a team should not be afraid to cut bait on a QB after two years if he isn't flashing, and yet you're advocating that the bears should trade for a guy who has significantly underachieved for THREE years?? When they have the #1 pick??
Holy stupid, batman!
Then again, you're the one who won't admit what a disaster it would have been to take Malik Willis with the FIFTH overall pick, so I'm not suprised...
You completely missed the point. Unsurprising.