TOUGHER spot then you think.
If he doesn’t beat Minn offer to get in position to take a QB (let’s assume McCarthy) and he stays at 6, and that QB blossoms while Jones goes the route we would expect, they will at best, put him on VERY thin ice. The fan base will be very hostile and we know how John never listens to the fan base (sarcasm).
Why?
Empty seats.
Daniel Jones is not going to fill the seats.
I don't think Mara is worried about that...
My point is all things being equal,Schoen is INCENTIVISED to keep DJ,at least this year.
If you think drafting a young QB is going to help our record in 2024,you are very mistaken...so even if Schoen took a short term approach to it,he still comes up with the same answer.
BTW,how do I change my user name so its not all caps?
I have tried numerous times
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If this is the calculus here, then we have the wrong guys. Any GM motivated by trying to skate out a few years isn't going to last long regardless. You have to have vision and conviction. Without that, you've already lost.
In a sane League, this would make sense. But patience is gone. Teams like the Steelers and Ravens are the outliers.
Again, since 2016, John Mara has fired two general managers and four head coaches.
Before Jerry Reese was fired, I had never experienced a Giants' GM being fired. Now it has happened twice in the last few years.
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In comment 16438193 UberAlias said:
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If this is the calculus here, then we have the wrong guys. Any GM motivated by trying to skate out a few years isn't going to last long regardless. You have to have vision and conviction. Without that, you've already lost.
That's where they're headed until they get a QB.
This is where I get frustrated every time I hear this statement. They don't need A QB. They need the right QB.
I think you know I mean the right QB, and not a QB for the sake of one. They already have those.
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In comment 16438196 JonC said:
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In comment 16438193 UberAlias said:
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If this is the calculus here, then we have the wrong guys. Any GM motivated by trying to skate out a few years isn't going to last long regardless. You have to have vision and conviction. Without that, you've already lost.
That's where they're headed until they get a QB.
This is where I get frustrated every time I hear this statement. They don't need A QB. They need the right QB.
You don’t know if you have the right QB until they take one and throw him out there.
They have the wrong one right now.
2 years in and he has failed more than he succeeded. Neal is one nail in his coffin, his dealings with DJ are another, all the star players on the team were drafted by the previous GM.
Now his signature move to date is Burns. Burns is a nice player but is he a $30 mil player and a 2nd rounder??? I don’t think so.
Now he has poured a ton of assets and cash into the OL. Is it finally fixed? Until you see them play it can’t be answered. To my eyes, Neal can’t play OT. For an athletic guy he sure looks slow and plodding.
Our skill positions as of today are the worst in the league. I just can’t see how they can look at the skill positions and feel good. It was bad with Barkley and if Slayton starts the season at #1 it’s misappropriation of resources.
Much like Golladay when Schoen arrived, Jones can’t be cut. It makes no sense to cut him, add $5 mil for Lock and draft a QB. Especially if you have to give up assets.
Schoen made his own bad decisions, the DG safety net is gone. If the Giants don’t compete for a playoff spot this year I don’t see how he recovers.
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In comment 16438196 JonC said:
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In comment 16438193 UberAlias said:
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If this is the calculus here, then we have the wrong guys. Any GM motivated by trying to skate out a few years isn't going to last long regardless. You have to have vision and conviction. Without that, you've already lost.
That's where they're headed until they get a QB.
This is where I get frustrated every time I hear this statement. They don't need A QB. They need the right QB.
I think you know I mean the right QB, and not a QB for the sake of one. They already have those.
That's why they're in a tough spot --because they don't have the luxury of patience.
It’s only a reach if it doesn’t work out.
You can have all the resources you want, but you have no idea if the QB you took is going to be the right one until you see them play against an NFL defense.
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That's why they get paid the big bucks and have the resources. They know what grades they have on the player. I can tell you that teams reaching for QBs almost never works out.
It’s only a reach if it doesn’t work out.
You can have all the resources you want, but you have no idea if the QB you took is going to be the right one until you see them play against an NFL defense.
Schoen has shown to be very green. Now he's got a shot to potentially get a top 3 QB and help his survival prospects. Let's hope he pulls it off for the right QB.
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In comment 16438223 UberAlias said:
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That's why they get paid the big bucks and have the resources. They know what grades they have on the player. I can tell you that teams reaching for QBs almost never works out.
It’s only a reach if it doesn’t work out.
You can have all the resources you want, but you have no idea if the QB you took is going to be the right one until you see them play against an NFL defense.
I don't think any GM worth a lick thinks this way.
That’s the reality of it.
He’s not an idiot like DG but he fell into the same trap which was misreading where they were on a rebuild and having faith in a flawed QB.
Let’s see if he can rebound in his job.
He’s not an idiot like DG but he fell into the same trap which was misreading where they were on a rebuild and having faith in a flawed QB.
Let’s see if he can rebound in his job.
Agreed. Would wager they prefer to sit at #6 and pick JJ or Maye, if one is there. But, the Vikes trade activity obviously is an issue with staying put.
Ironically, picking a qb in the later rounds may be the most desperate attempt to keep his job and placate fans.
Schoen should not be fired even if a QB he drafts at six busts. Fifty percent of first round QBs do. We also need to stop constantly firing GMs and coaches. I would only consider firing him if he made a massive move up for a QB that busted.
Schoen is a first time GM. He's going to make some mistakes. Patience.
You seem to be making an assumption that when the Giants select at 6 - any QB chosen is an act of desperation. You haven't come out and said that but your posts are implying that even if you probably don't mean it.
Why would you have assumed JonC meant to take any QB? You said you were frustrated by his post, didn't you?
I believe you have made many posts about the trenches. I fully support if that was you. But - it seems the top 6 QB's are rated pretty well and there is no indication in the future that the Giants will be in this position again? IS that "desperation?" IMO it is not. It's "opportunity.”
Unless you know of something different -- it seems the top 6 QB's are all well regarded. It is not desperation to say "we need to get one" - when we don't have one currently and we will have an opportunity to get one.
When comments are being made this year that we need to get a QB—it should be understood imo that it’s being made because the quality of this class among the 1st 6 is pretty well regarded vs highly unknown beyond this year. It’s time to take advantage of the opportunity.
Schoen should not be fired even if a QB he drafts at six busts. Fifty percent of first round QBs do. We also need to stop constantly firing GMs and coaches. I would only consider firing him if he made a massive move up for a QB that busted.
Schoen is a first time GM. He's going to make some mistakes. Patience.
+1
You think about everything that happened to this roster starting in week one and continuing on throughout the season, and how these players clawed and fought, to me it was an impressive coaching performance.
I wouldn't mind throwing in #1 in 2025 if they believe in Maye or McCarthy. But if Wolf already supposedly turned down the Giants offer, what makes you think he takes Minnesota's when it is not much better(if it is) than what the Giants offered. Basically he'd be missing on the QB he needs also. Is he really taking Nix at 11 instead of Maye at 3? We believe Denver wants Nix. What prevents Denver trading with the Jets or Bears to get ahead of NE?
It is lying season. Every day means a new lie.
I wouldn't mind throwing in #1 in 2025 if they believe in Maye or McCarthy. But if Wolf already supposedly turned down the Giants offer, what makes you think he takes Minnesota's when it is not much better(if it is) than what the Giants offered. Basically he'd be missing on the QB he needs also. Is he really taking Nix at 11 instead of Maye at 3? We believe Denver wants Nix. What prevents Denver trading with the Jets or Bears to get ahead of NE?
It is lying season. Every day means a new lie.
If they miss out on he top 4 QB's they still are in the hunt for Penix and Nix. And they could have had Fields.
Dumped the O-line coach & got a real one
Went out and got better players for the line
Didn’t pay McKinney $M17 to stay
The wrong …
Let Saquon go. He is a great guy but at Philly, he will make us pay, every time he sees us
Keeping Cager over Hodgkins ?
To be determined - Will Waller retire ? he’s making a lot of money, but he’s killing the team with his chronic nerve condition
I like Joe Milton. Cannon for an arm
The operation is more sophisticated than that. They see what Min may do. They run simulations. They work out every permutation. If they get jumped it is because he didn't feel a trade up was worth it or it is because they don't like who they could have gotten.
No one knows of any of these QBs will be good. It's so much more random than some of you think. It doesn't mean they shouldnt talk a QB or trade up. But there is a process. This isn't Young panicking and taking Cedric Jones. Or DG refusing to take calls. If they watch another team jump on you can bet they have games through that scenario dozens of times and we're not just sleeping or stupid.
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QB isn't the only thing that'll do him in. Oline could do it just as easily.
You seem to be making an assumption that when the Giants select at 6 - any QB chosen is an act of desperation. You haven't come out and said that but your posts are implying that even if you probably don't mean it.
Why would you have assumed JonC meant to take any QB? You said you were frustrated by his post, didn't you?
I believe you have made many posts about the trenches. I fully support if that was you. But - it seems the top 6 QB's are rated pretty well and there is no indication in the future that the Giants will be in this position again? IS that "desperation?" IMO it is not. It's "opportunity.”
Unless you know of something different -- it seems the top 6 QB's are all well regarded. It is not desperation to say "we need to get one" - when we don't have one currently and we will have an opportunity to get one.
When comments are being made this year that we need to get a QB—it should be understood imo that it’s being made because the quality of this class among the 1st 6 is pretty well regarded vs highly unknown beyond this year. It’s time to take advantage of the opportunity.
It's pretty simple. If they are high on a guy and can get him reasonably, there is literally nothing to discuss. Go get him. The meaningful question becomes, does Schoen need to reach or overpay for a guy because his job depends on it. We don't know what grades the team has on these QBs. They may like a guy, but do they like him enough to engage in a bidding war to land, and will the prospect be good enough to justify passing on a blue chip player at another position? Because that's what it may come down to. The case has been made by so many that it's QB or bust because of tolerance of the fans and because it's in the GMs best interest professionally to do so. But with the uncertainty of the draft --QBs in particular-- that's a damn risky game to be playing. We're in this mess in the first place because we over drafted out of desperation, now many are advocating doing the same and potentially with higher stakes of premium draft resources in a trade. No way in hell would I sign up for that kind of short term appeasement.
If you a conviction for a guy, go get him. No one should argue against that. But drafting a QB to buy the GM more time in the seat isn't going to work out in the long run, for any of us. Hopefully we've moved on from that sort of GM.
But getting into some silly bidding war with Minnesota isn't something I subscribe to unless there is an absolute, clear-cut, breakout leader in the house with the QB evaluations and that's what the deal brings in.
My view is that a star QB can remedy plenty of other roster sins and even worth plopping him in our current broken Offense right away. But if our broken Offense isn't going to get other reasonable investments this year and next because we spent it getting the QB then no-dice. The guy will probably be able to improve things to a level over the next 2-3 years, but then will run out of horsepower basically doing it himself.
He's done some good things and some bad things. I don't think any fan has, or should have, great loyalty to him. I know the Maras supposedly prize "stability," but that is belied by all the coaching changes.
2 years, Joe, or it's on to the next one.
I'm with you on this, want to give him enough time, I'm on the fence with what he's done but can't keep cutting bait every bad year. I would like Daboll and JS to have enough time to make the team in their mold.
that's why I would take that WR at 6 instead of moving up.
Why are they sitting out there looking in?
Agree, no GM or coach in the NFL always makes the right decision. Some on the board say JS made some good moves but screwed this or that up. That's why you're so right that's the nature of the business. IDK, but has any GM made all right decisions. Of course, if you're in that position you should be makeing more right than wrong.
I think Schoen will get a QB if he can, I think he is building a team though. He could move up for a WR too. At 6'4" MH jr is always open with rare hands. I would love to see him blue. Back shoulder and come back stuff is his strength and will translate even better in the NFL. They have to honor over the top and this kid has rare suddenness for his size.
If Jones gets hurt I would be quite happy to see Lock throw this kid some deep outs and back shoulders. Someone here often reminds me to be careful of stretching for need. There is real argument to be made over getting a gold jacket receiver vs the 4th best QB.
As long as we have a functional OL and RB that prefers N&S I don't need Mahomes. I would love the next Mahomes. If I had my preference, on game day, if "my guy" was there at 3, I trade future whatever to go up to three and get him. If "the guy" goes at 1, I'm looking at wr. Odunze and Penix interest me in tandem because of the chemistry. It wasn't that Odunze tested so well at the combine, he stayed after and ran more 3 cones. It impressed everyone because so may refused to even test. This kid has the head and talent.
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a QB buys Schoen and Daboll at least two years. It's one of the points I raised in my QB article.
Fans will accept the team struggling if they have hope. A new QB provides hope for a couple of years.
First off,listen to your wife...she's 100% right.
Secondly I have the exact opposite take,Schoen would be taking a huge gamble by drafting a QB.
Heres my logic:
Mara loves DJ-if Schoen replaces him with a dud via a premium draft pick-he's done....
However,he will have Mara's blessing to roll with DJ at least for this year....
Why would Schoen take that gamble???
He can simply take BPA and be completely exonerated from the risk of a bust at QB.
agree with this.
schoen is gone if they go 4-13 next season
You think about everything that happened to this roster starting in week one and continuing on throughout the season, and how these players clawed and fought, to me it was an impressive coaching performance.
they should have won 9, actually.
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Was amazing in 2023. This team had no business winning 6 games.
You think about everything that happened to this roster starting in week one and continuing on throughout the season, and how these players clawed and fought, to me it was an impressive coaching performance.
they should have won 9, actually.
Dear Lord, did you watch last year? This team was a train wreck. If it weren't for the run of turnovers the defense created, we may have the first pick.
We can talk about 2 GMs being fired in the span of 4 years, but come on, Reese was the GM for 11 years...the majority of that tenure marked with early highs arguably credited to critical pieces he inherited, some mediocre-at-best drafting, and one winning season in his final 5 years, that being the McAdoo season in which the team was marked by an atrocious offense that was carried by a superlative defense.
With Gettleman in charge, things went bad to worse and it felt like the team was operating in a way befit for a bygone era of football. Since Schoen has taken over, at the very least you can say it feels like there are adults running the show now. Mara has shown some patience in the past as long as he can see there is a method to the madness, a clear plan to a sustainable winner, which there appears to be. Results aren't going to manifest themselves until a winning franchise QB is acquired and developed. And one could argue that he tied his wagon to DJ, which was a mistake in retrospect, but in real-time, had no great alternatives, and allowed the organization an escape hatch that is one year away. And it was a deal that was largely lauded at the time for it's nuance and flexibility for the Giants.
And this coming from a DJ doubter from the day (nay, prior to the day) he was drafted.
Given all this, it would be hard to imagine Mara cutting bait less than a year from now before Schoen is able to reinvigorate the roster sans the DJ money and transition to a QB of choosing, particularly with a HC that developed Josh Allen.
I think Mara will give Schoen more than this regardless of what happens, and probably an additional 2 seasons (minimum) from the day he is able to truly address the QB problem meaningfully. I wouldn't say Mara is a great football mind, but I do think he's smart enough to know that you have to allow the guy you hired to enact his vision more fully before you drop the sword on him. Constant turmoil and resetting isn't going to help the franchise. I think Mara understands that.
His rope will likely only run out if he spends immense capital (draft or otherwise) on DJ's replacement, as long as that is done in the next two offseasons and the team continues to show improvement across the roster in other places.
Seems like a tall-ish order but I think this guy has what it takes to get it done as much or more than anyone.
Since Schoen has taken over, at the very least you can say it feels like there are adults running the show now. Mara has shown some patience in the past as long as he can see there is a method to the madness, a clear plan to a sustainable winner, which there appears to be. Results aren't going to manifest themselves until a winning franchise QB is acquired and developed. And one could argue that he tied his wagon to DJ, which was a mistake in retrospect, but in real-time, had no great alternatives, and allowed the organization an escape hatch that is one year away.
Given all this, it would be hard to imagine Mara cutting bait less than a year from now before Schoen is able to reinvigorate the roster sans the DJ money and transition to a QB of choosing, particularly with a HC that developed Josh Allen.
Great post. And what you have mentioned several times on here is getting a QB. It is so obvious that they need one.
While ofc they could bypass on some and wind up through their own analysis not so impressed by them until rd 3 or later. But if that were to happen and they suffer another miserable year while not much improvement in performance which is highly possible. Then you see a qb you could have had in 1st rd play very well for another team -- then maybe the narrative changes. Mara might be blind to it - but it definitely opens the door media and fans being more aggressive believing a new GM is needed.
will get a QB in the draft. and continue to patch the holes. Problem last year was the same as it has been for over a decade, poor OLine and no pass rush. and injuries.
They are in their 3rd year.