Asshats here have been reporting we've been putting the pressure on the Patriots for pick 3. Twitter Rumors suggest NYG and Pats are very close on compensation. Rumor is the Vikings have submitted their best offer too. A connected poster here has reported the Pats may prefer to not drop to 11, which suggests they may prefer NYG best offer over Minnesota's. With all this in mind, I wanted to break down possible scenarios and see everyone's perspectives.
I will premise this by saying I think the Vikings best offer would be pick 11, 23 and a future 1st with maybe a 3rd rounder to sweeten the deal. To best this deal, we would have to do pick 6, 47, and a player like KT or pick 6, 47, Hyatt plus a 2025 2nd.
Scenario A: Vikings get pick 3 for the aforementioned package and take Drake Maye at pick 3
Scenario B: NYG gets pick 3 for pick 6, 47, and Kayvon
Scenario C: NYG gets pick 3 for pick 6, 47, Hyatt and a 2025 2nd
Scenario D: NYG gets pick 3 for pick 6, 47, and a future 1st
Scenario E: NE decides to not pick 3, Vikings trade up with AZ or LA, NYG gets receiver
Scenario F: NE stays at 3, NYG trade up to 4 or 5 for QB
Scenario G: NE stays at 3, Vikings trade up to 4 or 5, NYG trades down
What would you prefer?
That's true and I also forgot to add the Kayvon trade scenario. I think the Vikings have a backup plan to get into top 5 I'd getting to 3 doesn't work, just a hunch though. I see that possible outcome as a very minute one personally. Nevertheless, that would be great and it would be my preference!
I'm all aboard that train!
In that scenario the Vikings win. Is Kayvon equivalent to a first? Barely.
In that scenario the Vikings win. Is Kayvon equivalent to a first? Barely.
Pick 6 and 47 is worth more than 11 and 23 I believe, of course that depends on team's personal preferences. If it really got heated and the Vikings added their 3rd this year I think we might have to add a 2025 2nd.
LoL
Trading Hyatt? And what, take a receiver at 47? Unless having Hyatt for a year has convinced the Giants they were wrong about him, that would be pretty foolish.
I can see your perspective. But I still see Hyatt as a potential #1 or 2 and at worst a player that scares defenses and can make big plays at any moment. Watch him go off with a legit qb.
That's getting fleeced and the type of move that gets GMs fired.
You want the 6th and 47th pick and a round 4 sweetener in 2025? Let's dance. You want us to give you next years first? Then you better give us #3 and your next years second.
Quote:
considering how deep this WR class is. I wouldn't want to include KT in the deal either. I would be willing to move Hyatt and next years 1. Not much else. Maybe a 3 next year to go along with it. Definitely do not want them dealing pick 47.
Trading Hyatt? And what, take a receiver at 47? Unless having Hyatt for a year has convinced the Giants they were wrong about him, that would be pretty foolish.
I don't want to move from Hyatt but I would over Slayton. You know what you are going to get every year from Slayton - 700+ - and that was on bad dysfunctional teams with no o line. Hyatt has speed for days but was invisible for most of the year or not on the field. If the Giants now believe the concerns about him prior to the draft have more validity to them then they did when he was drafted I could see them moving on.
Let's just stay at #6 to make it easier.
That's getting fleeced and the type of move that gets GMs fired.
You want the 6th and 47th pick and a round 4 sweetener in 2025? Let's dance. You want us to give you next years first? Then you better give us #3 and your next years second.
I would hate it, but still be excited they had conviction on a qb. If we don't trade a promising young player, that's the way to beat a predicted Minnesota trade package of pick 11, 23 and a 2025 1st though. The Jets traded 3 2nds and pick 6 to go up to 3 before, this would be equivalent.
Just give Chris a bottle of scotch and he’ll be fine.
Picks 6 and 47. 2030 points.
Picks 11 and 23. 2010 points.
So pretty even.
Trading Kayvon or Hyatt would be foolish as it would only open up 2 more holes on the team. And why would we trade our 3rd year DE that just posted 11.5 sacks?
In your examples I’d choose E or G.
Picks 6 and 47. 2030 points.
Picks 11 and 23. 2010 points.
So pretty even.
Trading Kayvon or Hyatt would be foolish as it would only open up 2 more holes on the team. And why would we trade our 3rd year DE that just posted 11.5 sacks?
In your examples I’d choose E or G.
Stop...using...the....Jimmy...Johnson...Trade...Chart.
Please please I implore everyone. Stop it. It's like using a car mechanic manual from 1995 to work on a Tesla.
That said - what's the hurry? They've probably liked the Giants offer all along, but there's plenty of time to squeeze them by getting the Vikings involved.
Kraft is a businessman - they'll take the Giants best offer but they want to make sure it IS their best offer.
I just have a feeling NE does not want to move outside the top 10 losing a chance at Nix.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Quote:
Picks 6 and 47. 2030 points.
Picks 11 and 23. 2010 points.
So pretty even.
Trading Kayvon or Hyatt would be foolish as it would only open up 2 more holes on the team. And why would we trade our 3rd year DE that just posted 11.5 sacks?
In your examples I’d choose E or G.
Stop...using...the....Jimmy...Johnson...Trade...Chart.
Please please I implore everyone. Stop it. It's like using a car mechanic manual from 1995 to work on a Tesla.
Like I said before, pick 6, 47 and future 1st equals what had been done in recent years to get a QB going from 6 to 3. That's what it would take if it were just picks, and I wouldn't like it as I said. I wouldn't want them to trade up to 3, but like I said I'd be excited about the conviction though.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Absolutely, I would hate that trade too. I like Kayvon and I think he is just starting to get in a groove. I loved how EA wouldn't include Osi.
Yeah, this indeed....
Quote:
willing to include Kayvon in a trade.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Absolutely, I would hate that trade too. I like Kayvon and I think he is just starting to get in a groove. I loved how EA wouldn't include Osi.
So with the benefit of hindsight you wouldn't include Osi in that trade instead of the 2005 first rounder? I'm guessing if you polled Giants fans they'd be happy to give up Osi AND the 2005 first rounder instead of sacrificing Eli.
And Thibodeaux ain't Osi. If moving up means treating Thibodeaux I'm fine with it. But I doubt he moves the needle as much as we want to think he would.
Quote:
In comment 16439429 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
willing to include Kayvon in a trade.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Absolutely, I would hate that trade too. I like Kayvon and I think he is just starting to get in a groove. I loved how EA wouldn't include Osi.
So with the benefit of hindsight you wouldn't include Osi in that trade instead of the 2005 first rounder? I'm guessing if you polled Giants fans they'd be happy to give up Osi AND the 2005 first rounder instead of sacrificing Eli.
And Thibodeaux ain't Osi. If moving up means treating Thibodeaux I'm fine with it. But I doubt he moves the needle as much as we want to think he would.
No in hindsight it was what pick 4 or something they got Shawn Merriman? I'd keep Osi over Merriman 100%
Quote:
In comment 16439429 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
willing to include Kayvon in a trade.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Absolutely, I would hate that trade too. I like Kayvon and I think he is just starting to get in a groove. I loved how EA wouldn't include Osi.
So with the benefit of hindsight you wouldn't include Osi in that trade instead of the 2005 first rounder? I'm guessing if you polled Giants fans they'd be happy to give up Osi AND the 2005 first rounder instead of sacrificing Eli.
And Thibodeaux ain't Osi. If moving up means treating Thibodeaux I'm fine with it. But I doubt he moves the needle as much as we want to think he would.
Future 1st value is a back half of current first rounder value, I think KT would be equivalent
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Could most certainly get to a point of including KT in a trade up instead of a future pick.
While I like the idea of seeing if Burns allows KT to be much more of a consistent impact player, I am not all that fond of the fact that KT is not more of a consistent impact player on his own.
Quote:
willing to include Kayvon in a trade.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Could most certainly get to a point of including KT in a trade up instead of a future pick.
While I like the idea of seeing if Burns allows KT to be much more of a consistent impact player, I am not all that fond of the fact that KT is not more of a consistent impact player on his own.
They aren't creating another hole on the Edge, that's just silly to propose.
Wouldn't just toss his name in the hat, but as i mentioned I could get there if needed.
Wouldn't just toss his name in the hat, but as i mentioned I could get there if needed.
He definitely isn't near the level of Burns yet, must be all those cigs.
Quote:
Have you all actually seen his pass rush stats/rankings? Plenty of games last year where Tight Ends were handling him.
Wouldn't just toss his name in the hat, but as i mentioned I could get there if needed.
He definitely isn't near the level of Burns yet, must be all those cigs.
You can tell the games he was motivated and/or laid of the smokes
2023 Season: 11.5 sacks, 16 QB hits
However, in 3 games against Washington and Jets, who have Offensive Lines that are probably worse than the NYG, Thibs piled up 6.5 sacks and 8 QB hits. Basically half of that production...shocking huh?
ill move up to 3 but i am NOT trading thibs or #47.
ill do
hyatt, 6, 2025 1st, 4th(either this year or next).
take maye at 3
legget at 47
Quote:
The Vikings will offer 3 1sts and we're only going to offer one 1st.
In that scenario the Vikings win. Is Kayvon equivalent to a first? Barely.
Pick 6 and 47 is worth more than 11 and 23 I believe, of course that depends on team's personal preferences. If it really got heated and the Vikings added their 3rd this year I think we might have to add a 2025 2nd.
Vikings don't have their 3rd this year. Next year they have a 1st and a 3rd but not a 2nd after the trade with Houston. So the only thing they can sweeten the deal with is a #3 next year. That's why if NE values 6 and 47 the same as or more than 11 and 23 the Giants seemingly would be in the better position to get to 3 because while Minnesota can offer a 1st and a 3rd next year Schoen can match that and can throw in a 2nd next year or a 3rd this year.
Quote:
In comment 16439483 ThomasG said:
Quote:
Have you all actually seen his pass rush stats/rankings? Plenty of games last year where Tight Ends were handling him.
Wouldn't just toss his name in the hat, but as i mentioned I could get there if needed.
He definitely isn't near the level of Burns yet, must be all those cigs.
You can tell the games he was motivated and/or laid of the smokes
2023 Season: 11.5 sacks, 16 QB hits
However, in 3 games against Washington and Jets, who have Offensive Lines that are probably worse than the NYG, Thibs piled up 6.5 sacks and 8 QB hits. Basically half of that production...shocking huh?
Yeah, I hadn't seen it broken down like that. So he had 5 sacks and 8 qb hits in 13 games outside of those 3. When you put it like that I would probably rather trade him than a future 1st. Ultimately, I'd rather just let the Vikings give the Patriots a haul. Get them to give as much as possible until Wolf calls Schoen on draft night and says "ok this is their best offer, you still willing to do the better deal?" Schoen laughs and replies, "on second thought just go ahead and take the Vikings offer, thanks anyways". And we get Maye or JJM at 5 or 6.
Quote:
In comment 16439346 Darwinian said:
Quote:
The Vikings will offer 3 1sts and we're only going to offer one 1st.
In that scenario the Vikings win. Is Kayvon equivalent to a first? Barely.
Pick 6 and 47 is worth more than 11 and 23 I believe, of course that depends on team's personal preferences. If it really got heated and the Vikings added their 3rd this year I think we might have to add a 2025 2nd.
Vikings don't have their 3rd this year. Next year they have a 1st and a 3rd but not a 2nd after the trade with Houston. So the only thing they can sweeten the deal with is a #3 next year. That's why if NE values 6 and 47 the same as or more than 11 and 23 the Giants seemingly would be in the better position to get to 3 because while Minnesota can offer a 1st and a 3rd next year Schoen can match that and can throw in a 2nd next year or a 3rd this year.
Technically to better the Vikings offer of pick 11, 23 and 2025 1st/2nd we would need to do pick 6, 47 and a future 1st at minimum I believe. That is to better their offer
I'm honestly thinking Schoen is doing this whether it's for Maye or JJM who knows, I believe the league knows JD and CW are going 1-2 and in discussing trades with the Pats it's become clear to Schoen he could get the pick. He seems hell-bent on it at this point based on what the asshats have been saying. Schoen and Dabka must have some kind of teal conviction in Maye or JJM to engage like this, hopefully they are right. BBI will go straight bonkers if we trade up to 3 and it's for JJM.
I do think Schoen is going with operation kitchen sink at this point, he thinks one of these guys is his Josh Allen and he's ready to hitch his whole GM career to that wagon. That is a hell of a Lotta conviction.
I agree, but if Schoen and Co have full-fledged conviction as it seems they do then you'd have to be a bit excited and have faith no?
Quote:
In comment 16439429 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
willing to include Kayvon in a trade.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Could most certainly get to a point of including KT in a trade up instead of a future pick.
While I like the idea of seeing if Burns allows KT to be much more of a consistent impact player, I am not all that fond of the fact that KT is not more of a consistent impact player on his own.
They aren't creating another hole on the Edge, that's just silly to propose.
Exactly. And, what, depend on Ojulari opposite Burns? Hell to the no.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
If that's what it took, I'd say "best I can do is Azeez Ojulari"
Who is JerseyJoe? I must have missed him on the boards, or he wasn't that memorable to me.
And run the end around all game 'cause that is about the only way our current QBs will be able to get the ball to any of them.
And run the end around all game 'cause that is about the only way our current QBs will be able to get the ball to any of them.
And run the end around all game 'cause that is about the only way our current QBs will be able to get the ball to any of them.
Let them believe our second choice QB is the one they want. Easier said than done, I know.
Let them believe our second choice QB is the one they want. Easier said than done, I know.
I feel like Schoen is a good negotiator (outside of the Daniel Jones deal). If he gets this done for pick 6, 47 a future 2nd and a player that is really good. I'd imagine it will cost us out future 1st instead of the player but who knows. I'm really getting the feeling Schdabka is in full bloom love with one of these guys and if JD goes before pick 3 they are going to do whatever it takes. Which sounds desperate and a bit scary, but really exciting too.
However, Minnesota has the ammo to trade down with Chargers. They don't go through all of that nonsense without a realistic shot at trading up and the only team likely to do that is the Chargers. Arizona is not going to give up MHJ, he is too valuable. The Giants aren't going to sell the farm to move up one spot to get a QB they may not have rated that high. Minnesota is more desperate than the Giants. We are not going to give up Odunze or Nabers for McCarthy or Nix.
Sy has MHJ, Nabers, and Odunze rated nearly equally. He stated that he has never seen anyone with the contested catch rate that Odunze exhibits. Sure, there are very good WRs available later in the draft, but none are as sure things as the top 3 WRs. These are like guaranteed ProBowlers.
The same cannot be said about the QBs. You don't trade away draft picks and/or assets to take a player you are not sure about to give up the chance to draft a ProBowl player. It just doesn't make sense. We may take a QB later, but it won't be at the expense of losing out on OBJ type talent at WR plus the cost of valuable draft picks. McCarthy is not a sure thing, so let Minnesota shoot their wad and take him.
Quote:
In comment 16439429 FranknWeezer said:
Quote:
willing to include Kayvon in a trade.
Were you around in 2004 when the Chargers GM said they weren't going to let us have Eli unless we included Osi Umenyiora in the trade?
Absolutely, I would hate that trade too. I like Kayvon and I think he is just starting to get in a groove. I loved how EA wouldn't include Osi.
So with the benefit of hindsight you wouldn't include Osi in that trade instead of the 2005 first rounder? I'm guessing if you polled Giants fans they'd be happy to give up Osi AND the 2005 first rounder instead of sacrificing Eli.
And Thibodeaux ain't Osi. If moving up means treating Thibodeaux I'm fine with it. But I doubt he moves the needle as much as we want to think he would.
There is zero chance I include Osi in that trade and walk away knowing I got fleeced. Accorsi did it the right way.
Quote:
And pick a premiere WR: MHjr, Nabers or Odunze, whoever is there they want.
And run the end around all game 'cause that is about the only way our current QBs will be able to get the ball to any of them.
Tyrod and Tommy got the ball to the WRs when they weren't on their backs. Fixing the line will allow Lock to throw the ball.
Cardinals and Chargers stay put
Giants draft Maye at 6 without giving up anything at all
Giants aren't. Neither should any NYG fans. Go outside and take a walk.
if he stays at 6 and picks the wrong guy, it happens
if he trades up and picks the wrong guy, he won't work in the league again
Osi, after 2 years in the NFL drafted in the 2nd round (when nearly everyone had Osi as a 2nd round talent) from a small school had a grand total of 8 sacks and 8 starts--over 2 seasons. 15 TFLs. 67 total solo tackles. After his rookie year he had 1 sack and started one game and Accorsi still said fuck off when asked to trade him for the #1 overall pick.
Thibs, after 2 seasons and drafted 5th overall (when nearly everyone had him easy top 5 talent) from a bigger school had 31 starts, 15.5 total sacks, 59 solo tackles, 18 TFLs and 29 QB hits (Didn't show Osi's QB hits but he averaged about the same after 04)
Thibs was a better prosoect coming out and has done more than OSi did his first 2 seasons.
You don't trade that kind of talent to move up to #1 without fighting back tooth and nail and you sure as fuck don't trade that for the 3rd overall. Fuck off. Thibs has room to improve the same way Osi had room to improve after 2004.
Would anyone make that move?
Osi, after 2 years in the NFL drafted in the 2nd round (when nearly everyone had Osi as a 2nd round talent) from a small school had a grand total of 8 sacks and 8 starts--over 2 seasons. 15 TFLs. 67 total solo tackles. After his rookie year he had 1 sack and started one game and Accorsi still said fuck off when asked to trade him for the #1 overall pick.
Thibs, after 2 seasons and drafted 5th overall (when nearly everyone had him easy top 5 talent) from a bigger school had 31 starts, 15.5 total sacks, 59 solo tackles, 18 TFLs and 29 QB hits (Didn't show Osi's QB hits but he averaged about the same after 04)
Thibs was a better prosoect coming out and has done more than OSi did his first 2 seasons.
You don't trade that kind of talent to move up to #1 without fighting back tooth and nail and you sure as fuck don't trade that for the 3rd overall. Fuck off. Thibs has room to improve the same way Osi had room to improve after 2004.
Very sound analysis, I'd rather not trade Thibs too. He's also still just 23 years old and will be 23 for the majority of this season. Pass rushers often take time to develop and he seems to be evolving nicely. He was double teamed consistently, having Burns will surely open things up for everyone.