Last offseason, the decision was made by "the Giants" to retain both Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. The team tried to get a deal done with both before the Franchise Tag deadline. No deal could be reached with Barkley. The Giants reached a last-minute deal with Jones that allowed the team to slap the Franchise Tag on Barkley.
When the dust settled, Barkley's non-exclusive Franchise equaled a 1-year, $10.091 commitment. However, the team restructured that deal in July to $11 million, including a $2 million signing bonus.
Which brings us to the point of this thread: Jones' 4-year, $160 million contract including a $36,000,000 signing bonus, $92,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $40,000,000.
2023 could not have gone worse for Jones. He suffered his second career neck injury in Week 5 and missed the next three games. When he returned in Week 9, he tore the ACL in his right knee, finishing his season. On top of all of that, Jones was 1-5 in games that he did start, finishing the year with just 909 passing yards, two touchdowns, and six interceptions. His injuries and performance issues now put into question his long-term tenure with the organization.
NFL owners are rich. Bad contracts are commonplace. But if I'm the owner of the Giants, I am asking some serious questions right now because just a year ago, I was asked to write a $100 million check to a player who may be on his way out in a year. The only way I'm not pissed at someone else is if I am the one pushed for a long-term deal for Jones.
The smarter decision during the 2023 offseason would have been to let Barkley walk in free agency and tag Jones. So my question is this? Who is chiefly responsible for making the decision on the Jones' contract?
Option #1: While Mara will provide his opinion, he completely defers to Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll on personnel issues. The decision to retain Jones with a huge contract is completely on them. And Mara and Tisch have every right to be really upset at this point, especially if the team is truly considering drafting another quarterback.
Option #2: All parties are equally responsible, Schoen and Daboll not only believed in Jones, but so did ownership and family members such as Tim McDonnell and Chris Mara. Schoen and Daboll don't have complete autonomy, but in this case it did not matter.
Option #3: Schoen and Mara had their doubts about Jones, but ownership/family pushed for a long-term commitment based on what ended up being fool's gold (the "legendary" Vikings playoff game).
The public will probably never know the truth, but it is an important question because someone screwed the pooch big time. The contract erased the cap gains the team made in 2022 and set back the rebuild by at least one year, and probably two. It was a colossal mistake. And who is largely responsible may determine how shaky the ground is around Schoen and Daboll.
Total organizational failure.
But it feels like option 3.
JS had a plan the minute he walked into the door. He didn't give Jones his 5th year option (still the right move) but the Giants won a playoff game. Ownership declared "We are back".
Or it's option 2 and the fool's gold, fooled everybody.
Even this website. Even some of the biggest Jones detractors "believed" after the wild card run. Most people were happy that we resigned Jones.
The misfire of the entire organization was operating as if Barkley and Jones were a package deal, and then Schoen going public with everything from "Jones will be the QB" to his intentions of how/when he would use the franchise tag.
Long story short, Schoen and Daboll "liked" not "loved" Jones. I don't think it was based on one game. I think they felt simply that Jones did everything asked him of him and they managed to win a playoff game with not such great talent around him. The Minnesota game shouldn't be overstated, but it also shouldn't be completely discarded the way it is around here. Winning road playoff games is hard in the NFL and you can tell me all about the Vikes defense but I would counter with, aside from Jones himself and Barkley, what did the 2022 NYG offense have to offer? Not much.
Anyway, the whole situation has backfired and that sucks, but as far as the contract itself is concerned, it's bad but it could be much, much worse if Schoen and Daboll had truly fallen for him.
Of course Jones plays a role in this failure, but no one has a crystal ball when they make these decisions.
It turned out horribly. I don't think I'd call it a colossal mistake from bad process.
Mara and Tisch should be mad that they put Ezeudu in at left tackle with no plan.
Owners have influence and sway over huge deals like this one. Rarely if ever will you see a QB sign a huge deal and learn the owner couldn't care less or didn't influence things at all. This is just common sense. But that doesn't mean John Mara was kicking Schoen's door down demanding Jones get paid "too much money." Mara definitely endorsed it. That is obvious because Jones was offered a big deal. Endorsed. NOT ENFORCED. And if was enforced, oh well...Schoen let it happen and has no one to blame but himself. HE should have insisted on stipulations when he was hired as GM in January of 2022.
Believe what you want. BBI loves to mold and nurture villains.
Think about it.
Schoen is so much more intelligent than you folks, I need popcorn for this.
If the Giants knew that they were that far apart from Barkley and his agents they should have traded him.
If Barkley was traded there would have been a domino effect.
The Giants could have used the franchise tag on Jones.
The net result would be that this year we might have an additional 3rd round pick and Jones could have been released without CAP implications.
Think about it.
Schoen is so much more intelligent than you folks, I need popcorn for this.
It certainly was not the correct call. It was a colossal mistake. If the Giants had tagged Jones and let Barkley walk, the team would have been in an infinitely better position than it is today.
But it feels like option 3.
JS had a plan the minute he walked into the door. He didn't give Jones his 5th year option (still the right move) but the Giants won a playoff game. Ownership declared "We are back".
Or it's option 2 and the fool's gold, fooled everybody.
Even this website. Even some of the biggest Jones detractors "believed" after the wild card run. Most people were happy that we resigned Jones.
Agreed. Most likely option 3, possibly 2.
It matters. Especially depending on which option is the correct one.
That playoff game really clouded the FO, and coaches eyes.
The offensive line was horrific, dreadful and historically bad - the worst thing for a slow read QB.
I never though the tag on Jones was an option because it killed their chances at FA.
Barkley stupidly and now sullenly turned down a contract that would have given Schoen more options with Jones
Mara & Co definitely had a helicopter parent mentality with both Jones an Barkley....
It all adds up to a clusterf#*k contract....
There weren't great options if they let Daniel Jones walk.
There were concerns (rightfully so) that the offense lacked weapons and letting Barkley walk would have only compounded the problem.
I think the decision to give Jones this contract was a lot more about about Saquon than it was about Jones.
Whether Mara was involved in the decision or not, there was likely concern by Schoen and Daboll that if they let Saquon walk, Mara would have been upset, especially if the team took a step back. Saquon had been the face of the franchise and been the best player on offense.
If Schoen and Daboll never had to worry about ever getting fired, then letting Saquon walk and franchising Jones would have been the easy answer. But, they do have to worry about getting fired, because it's been happening a lot recently within the Giants organization.
It probably would have made more sense to cave to Saquon and give him the contract he wanted and franchise Jones. It would have been a mistake, but it would have been a smaller one.
Of course Jones plays a role in this failure, but no one has a crystal ball when they make these decisions.
It turned out horribly. I don't think I'd call it a colossal mistake from bad process.
There may not be a so called crystal ball but most of the rest of the planet knew that contract was insane at the time. There were some that convinced themselves that it wasn’t bad because A. They really like Jones and B. They convinced themselves that it was really only a two year deal so it was “easy” to get out of. Players around the league were commenting and expressing their disbelief at the contract from the time it was signed. No crystal ball needed.
I have no idea who to blame the most but I would absolutely love to have a beer with Daboll and slip some truth serum into his drink to get his true feelings. Of all those involved in this decision, I find it hardest to believe Daboll was the driving factor here. Imo, he may have been resigned to the fact that there weren’t better options at the time and he went along with it and hoped he was wrong. But this dude knows what a real QB looks like first hand. And listening to him ramble on about how awesome Allen is in the week leading up to Bills week was very telling. The best thing he’s ever said about Jones is he’s done everything we’ve asked of him. I’ll never believe Jones is Dabolls guy
HE was gushing over Jones by mid December. Daboll liked Jones. A lot. HE liked how Jones played in 2022. A lot. YOU didn't and if you won't acknowledge 2022 as anything more than an overrated below average performance from Jones you will never see shit.
The Giants were quite pleased with DJ following 2022. They acted like it. They looked like. They fucking said it. Just deal with it already. GMS and HCs have been wrong before about the QB. Our own legendary George Young was. So were many others before and after him.
and if they tagged him, and he had a good year, (as many in the organization obviously expected) what would it cost to sign him moving forward? every decision has moving parts, c'mon.
This is why enterprises fail.
Schoen and Daboll wanted him back. It's clear.
Now they gave DJ a big contract with anticipation of 1) he grows into being worth the contract (and possibly more), and 2) the cap was going to go up as were QB dollars so it wouldn't look bad in 2 years even if it didn't work out so good. Judging the contract after 5 games w/o Thomas/Saquon/Wandale on offense is incredibly reactionary, and I think that's just fan frustration from a decade of suckage talking.
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had tagged Daniel Jones, we would all be saying, "thank God they only tagged him last year!"
and if they tagged him, and he had a good year, (as many in the organization obviously expected) what would it cost to sign him moving forward? every decision has moving parts, c'mon.
As far as I can tell, the Giants gave Daniel Jones $160 million dollars because he had an above average season. Don't forget, this contract was widely mocked. Guess who was right?
I think the opposite. They know they screwed up, time to move on. Don't force it, but the sooner DJ is gone the better. Even a trade eating some contract $$ for a bag of donuts is the way to go...
However, saying that the decision wasn't a bad one is a non-starter with me.
This is why enterprises fail.
Yup. Total fuck up, but the key is if this organization learned something in it.
1. Gettldmen fell in love eith him during his private workout.
2. Shurmur clearly wanted to start him as a rookie but made him sit 2 games in deference to Eli.
3. Judge praised him after he was canned.
4. I think Schoen and Daboll saw the same practice MVP in 2022 and when they had some success, they were convinced that the guy they saw in practice was finally showing up on gameday amd gave him the contract.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman’s help) and said: “Hey I can’t screw up everything, I gotta get something right.”
2. Schoen admitting they planned to bring Jones back in the end of season press conference.
NYG showed all their cards and Team Jones took full advantage. Speaking like this regarding a pending FA is malpractice imo.
Lastly, you are fooling yourself if you didn't think Schoen was in an impossible spot here. Just look at those quotes and read the article I've linked.
Link - ( New Window )
However, saying that the decision wasn't a bad one is a non-starter with me.
At the time it was logical. He was the best QB on the team and there wasn't any other QB worth chasing in FA. Hindsight is 20-20. It looks bad now.
What if he bounces back in 24? Not allowed to entertain that one I guess?
I hope the owners did ask a lot of questions and the contract would be a good bit down the list.
Daboll did say, "Nobody is happy in the building."
That's exactly right.
Obviously the smart play was to properly evaluate DJ and cut bait altogether. But realizing that good business sense is a foreign language at 1925 Giants Drive and that emotions run high off of actually participating in the playoffs, the Franchise Tag was such a damn obvious choice.
Shame on Joe Schoen for not bringing logic into an emotional building. And even if he got caught up himself in as a newcomer to the DJFC, how he didn't just pay Saquon a few more contract dollars and put the tag on DJ I will never know. Even as a rookie GM that mistake was a whopper.
They should have pivoted and either traded him or let him go as a free agent.
This was more about Barkley. Barkley had expressed a desire to be a Giant for life and I am certain that was a consideration.
It goes to show that this is a business from both the team's side and the player's side.
Barkley ultimately screwed the Giants and their plans. He knew he was going to take the best contract that he was offered yet he let them believe that he wanted to stay.
Schoen will learn from this and be a better GM in the future.
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They made the correct call. I don’t know shit, but I KNEW Jones was getting resigned after that playoff game. The fact we can get out of it soon shows how Strong Schoen negotiated. He was in a position of weakness. I think the people criticizing the move are doing it based solely on hind sight. giants were in a tough spot. We have options THIS YEAR because of how welll Schoen has done. He fucking signed Burns. Burns and Thibs competing.
Think about it.
Schoen is so much more intelligent than you folks, I need popcorn for this.
It certainly was not the correct call. It was a colossal mistake. If the Giants had tagged Jones and let Barkley walk, the team would have been in an infinitely better position than it is today.
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In comment 16441254 Eric from BBI said:
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had tagged Daniel Jones, we would all be saying, "thank God they only tagged him last year!"
and if they tagged him, and he had a good year, (as many in the organization obviously expected) what would it cost to sign him moving forward? every decision has moving parts, c'mon.
As far as I can tell, the Giants gave Daniel Jones $160 million dollars because he had an above average season. Don't forget, this contract was widely mocked. Guess who was right?
The Giants have been mocked at almost every juncture with Jones, yet some continue to insist everyone else is wrong.
20/20 hindsight given the injuries that no one could predict, no?
Schoen's failure was he didn't properly manage up and protect his bosses from themselves. The "we're not keeping Jones" conversation needed to start the day Schoen was interviewed for the GM job and continue throughout 2022.
We know how much ownership doesn't like to look like a clown show. I expect they're praying that Jones's injuries prevent him from being able to play at all this year. Convenient excuse to move on.
"If he really is the real deal and tears it up under the tag, we are going to have to pay him even more in a year", but this is a good situation to be in.
"We can sign him now and save significant contract size", but what if he regresses and the contract is an albatross - this is a shitty situation.
Sure if they tagged him - it would have been about 13 million less cap a year ago, so no Okereke and maybe a few others not on the team. The team would have been a little worse, but probably a better draft pick now assuming things went similar.
I just do not get why not tagging him? It seemed obvious to me back then, but I think they must have thought he was ready to take the next step.
Thus, this decision on Jones was/is on Schoen. Of course, you have to assume Daboll agreed with marching forward with Jones, but Schoen did the negotiating.
Now, it's a mistake and that happens. But the key is admitting the mistake and changing course. And managing Mara to get on board. Because that's what effect leadership is with any business...
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had tagged Daniel Jones, we would all be saying, "thank God they only tagged him last year!"
20/20 hindsight given the injuries that no one could predict, no?
It's not hindsight.
Jones had a rookie season filled with glimpses of good and bad play. He was terrible for two seasons. He had an above average 2022 campaign.
So the option was to tag him or fold and give him $160 million.
How is this hindsight?
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thread breathe without further input on my part. I've made my point.
However, saying that the decision wasn't a bad one is a non-starter with me.
At the time it was logical. He was the best QB on the team and there wasn't any other QB worth chasing in FA. Hindsight is 20-20. It looks bad now.
What if he bounces back in 24? Not allowed to entertain that one I guess?
You don’t need to show up on every thread thinking you’re a white knight riding in to set everyone else straight with your shouting and incoherent rambling. You’ve admitted to always being the guy that feels like he has to ride in to “balance out the discussion” so we know it’s a fact you do this. You don’t believe most of what you say. You’re simply playing the contrarian character.
I particularly love your statement that they absolutely love Jones because “they said it!”. Haha. We’ve also seen Daboll on multiple occasions rip him to shreds on the sidelines and throw tablets down in disgust. Based on your logic we can all assume that he must hate him then, right? Bottom line is, you don’t know how Daboll and/or Schoen truly feel. You have zero clue, just like the rest of us. You have no idea if it was Mara involved or not. So stop with the bullshit and acting like you do know. You don’t. No matter how many fake rants you throw at us
There's too much hope in the NYG plan, the tough decisions are often punted or wrong.
Schoen's failure was he didn't properly manage up and protect his bosses from themselves. The "we're not keeping Jones" conversation needed to start the day Schoen was interviewed for the GM job and continue throughout 2022.
Schoen is a first time GM. We don't know if he's good at this or not. We're hoping his prior experiences pay off here.
Thus, assuming he's too smart to make this type of a mistake on assessing Jones is really one hell of a benefit of the doubt.
i dont think that was correct but i dont think he had any reason to really lie about it. they were less than an hour from running out the clock if they didnt want to extend him.
The thing that makes it hard to judge re Jones, is that if ownership was forcing Jones on JS/BD, why didn't they give him the 5th year option in 2022? It would have been a much cheaper way to show commitment while still giving themselves 2 years to make him prove himself instead of 1. Franchise was the 2nd best option.
i dont think that was correct but i dont think he had any reason to really lie about it. they were less than an hour from running out the clock if they didnt want to extend him.
I agree with most of this.
Now, if that buffoon Gettleman was still here, I would absolutely assume Mara was pulling strings. Because that was why Gettleman was hired. He knew how to please Mara...
But what about the politics of Barkley? I'm not saying its the wrong move by any means, but why was it so important to use the tag on Saquon 1 year ago and now they let him walk for nothing?
It's not just using the tag on Saquon, its more NOT using it on Jones when it was the perfect scenario for it.
Did Saquon's play this season change their thinking that dramatically?
over Daniel Jones' contract, you might as well include ALL the relevant information... such as... the 2022 Giants made a surprising turn-around in the first season under an entirely new regime, and that success was in large measure due to two players: Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. The entire organization was trying desperately to keep a good thing going after so many putrid seasons. They failed miserably, but it easy to see that their road to perdition was paved with good intentions. And BBI got sucked right into the abyss based on all the thousands of good-feel threads from Jan-Aug 2023.
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
But what about the politics of Barkley? I'm not saying its the wrong move by any means, but why was it so important to use the tag on Saquon 1 year ago and now they let him walk for nothing?
It's not just using the tag on Saquon, its more NOT using it on Jones when it was the perfect scenario for it.
Did Saquon's play this season change their thinking that dramatically?
The Barkley stuff is so damn weird unless you accept two possible premises: (1) marketing is more important than we realize, (2) ownership does have a say in personnel matters.
That's where the TT was the play because no one on God's green Earth was coughing up multiple firsts to acquire Jones under the FT. NFW.
And the TT would have revealed the true market value for Jones. I believe ajr nailed it last off-season: the AAV in an open market would have been $25M or <.
i dont think that was correct but i dont think he had any reason to really lie about it. they were less than an hour from running out the clock if they didnt want to extend him.
This is fair. The Giants were sitting at pick #24 and DJ rose to the challenge and won a playoff game. I’m sure Shoen and Dabs knew to what degree they limited DJ but he also did demonstrate improvement. There really was no way they could just cut the cord on him and run it with Tyrod Taylor or Carr. The result may have been the same but Shoen and Dabs have jobs to keep and letting DJ go and even going .500 with TT could have meant their jobs.
They extended the risk to 2 years and took the extra cap to support their bet even more. It backfired.
Now pivot. Drastically.
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That's where the TT was the play because no one on God's green Earth was coughing up multiple firsts to acquire Jones under the FT. NFW.
And the TT would have revealed the true market value for Jones. I believe ajr nailed it last off-season: the AAV in an open market would have been $25M or <.
It does seem like the TT would have been prudent. I’m trying to understand the downside. Would there have been a timing impact that would have hamstrung their ability to navigate free agency?
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
He deserves blame, its outrageous to act otherwise. He was the top 10 in nfl salaries last year and he couldn't put up any points. He wasn't inconsistent or even bad, he was atrocious.
Market value? We'll never know for sure but I highly doubt any other team was given him anywhere near that contract.
They should have either let him find out or tagged him.
Time.
They didn't want him to hit the open market. The only work around was to let Barkley walk.
It does seem like the TT would have been prudent. I’m trying to understand the downside. Would there have been a timing impact that would have hamstrung their ability to navigate free agency?
The downside, and this would have been long odds, is that a team stepped up and offered a contract that has a higher-than-expected AAV, guaranteed $, etc. A contract that would have really hamstrung NYG.
And, of course, no comp coming back if you couldn't match.
But, again, I think that scenario would have been very long odds...
For example, interview question #1 - Mr. Gettleman, we think that Eli Manning has one more strong run in him as the face of this franchise, should you be the new GM, what kind of plan would you put together to ensure that he go out as the greatest NYG QB of all time?
Or..
Mr. Schoen, We believe that we have a franchise QB in place already here in NY. What plans do you have to fix all the things that your predecessor broke to ensure that he is successful moving forward?
There's only 32 job in the league - what potential GM is saying, "Well, I have to get in there and evaluate the QB position before I can agree with your assertion that the QB is already in place."
I know the answer to that one - none
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
I agree 100%. And I'm not some huge Daniel Jones fan or apologist. The Giants team sucked last season just like it has sucked for a decade.
I think we'll get some insight into whether it was #3 based on the length of the leash that Schoen gets to fix all this. If he stays for a few more years regardless of the season outcomes, it will be sold as "we want stability and we don't want to switch GMs every 3 years," but that would be really telling in my opinion.
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Who were the Giants bidding against? If they ultimately agreed to guarantee jones 90m, who was the team that they were afraid was about to make an offer like that if Jones hit free agency? I have not seen any evidence that a market for jones at the price the giants ultimately paid would have ever materialized.
Time.
They didn't want him to hit the open market. The only work around was to let Barkley walk.
But why were they so worried about him hitting the open market? What team was gonna offer jones a big contract? Which other team loved jones? I have never read anything about another team being interested in jones at the price the giants paid. The big complaint against management seems to be they misunderstood the market for Jones.
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It does seem like the TT would have been prudent. I’m trying to understand the downside. Would there have been a timing impact that would have hamstrung their ability to navigate free agency?
The downside, and this would have been long odds, is that a team stepped up and offered a contract that has a higher-than-expected AAV, guaranteed $, etc. A contract that would have really hamstrung NYG.
And, of course, no comp coming back if you couldn't match.
But, again, I think that scenario would have been very long odds...
I’m thinking more from the standpoint that navigating FA would be difficult not knowing how it would play out with DJ and year 1,2 cap implications. I may be overthinking.
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Who were the Giants bidding against? If they ultimately agreed to guarantee jones 90m, who was the team that they were afraid was about to make an offer like that if Jones hit free agency? I have not seen any evidence that a market for jones at the price the giants ultimately paid would have ever materialized.
Time.
They didn't want him to hit the open market. The only work around was to let Barkley walk.
I suspect that Barkley was playing chicken with the NYG, dragging out the negotiations till the end hoping that they would use the tag on Jones believing Barkley deal was within reach. I believe he wanted out last year.
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He was paid like a middle-tier starting QB and they thought he'd have a better season with an improved OL and skill group. Then they'd have to pay more.
The Giants were not anticipating all of their skill players to suck again, and their OL to bottom out.
It's the "blame Jones for everything" crap from the fans that is beyond ridiculous. He walked into a meat grinder. Did he miss some throws while getting chewed up? Sure. But to sit there and act like you can't understand how they gave him that contract is bullshit on a shingle.
He got market value coming off 2022 season, and then got physically destroyed. Put the pitchforks away.
He deserves blame, its outrageous to act otherwise. He was the top 10 in nfl salaries last year and he couldn't put up any points. He wasn't inconsistent or even bad, he was atrocious.
Market value? We'll never know for sure but I highly doubt any other team was given him anywhere near that contract.
They should have either let him find out or tagged him.
That's all fine and good - as has been stated many times, one of the big reasons they didn't franchise him was because they expected him to play better with an improved supporting cast, and with the ballooning QB salaries and salary cap, it would've been really costly waiting a year to sign him longterm.
Given that, to literally have pitchforks out demanding how anyone could be so stupid for re-signing him is ridiculous. They gambled on themselves improving around him, with the reigning Coach of the Year and their hotshot young GM adding pieces.
He got injured because the team around him sucked beyond belief, and it isn't working out. But spare me the pitchfork bullshit. It's fan nonsense. The contract was completely understandable given the circumstances and it didn't work out. Let it go and stop demanding a sacrificial lamb.
Schoen and Daboll deserve more sh#t for the surrounding cast around DJ and the overall lack of preparation to start the season than they do the DJ contract.
And that is a frightening proposition. It might discourage the organization from getting a real QB until everything else is in place so they don't "screw up" the next QB.
DJ's crew knew he had ownership backing - he just had the best season of his career - AND the Giants had literally no other options.
Quite frankly I think DJ could have pushed the envelope a bit further if he really wanted to. He did NOT get any where close to a contract as some of the top tier guys did.
If I had to bet - that opt out was put in because of the insistence of Schoen and Daboll. I think ownership went along with it because despite their love for the kid, they must also have a bit of doubt in the back of their minds - otherwise Schoen's first order of business when he got here would have been to exercise DJ's 5th year option.
That's just me guessing.
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
We also don't know if the tag came up or not in negotiations. Perhaps Schoen didn't like the tag as it also has some downsides or some other reason.
*cue the Jints Central puff piece about how Chris Mara has really taken a step back and Joe Schoen has complete autonomy to make decisions on EVERYONE on the roster.
Of course Jones plays a role in this failure, but no one has a crystal ball when they make these decisions.
It turned out horribly. I don't think I'd call it a colossal mistake from bad process.
This! Anyone can make great decisions after the fact. A decision that turns out poorly or even colossally bad is not necessarily a bad decision. You can call the all in with AA vs AK before the flop and lose your whole stack. it was still a great decision. You can say the contract was a bad idea at the time (many did). You can say it was OK and turned out very badly. To say it was a colossal mistake is just silly. The only people who should be at risk for being fired or dismissed from the Giants are the ones who judge decisions purely on results.
brian burns just had the giants over a barrel.
mayfield had the bucs over a barrel.
calvin ridley had the market over a barrel.
kirk cousins and his 1-3 career postseason record at 36 off a popped achilles had the falcons over a barrel.
jones was a free agent,
the giants thought enough of him they were either tagging him or extending him,
there was no world where he wasnt getting paid by 1 of the other 31 teams if he hit the open market. that is the same fantasy that had people thinking barkley wouldnt have gotten more than the nyg offered on the open market as he ended up doing a year later off a worse season.
the mistake the giants made was putting themselves over a barrel thinking the tag was a "worst case" when it really wasn't. though if they extended barkley instead and he had the misfortune of blowing out his acl, everyone would second guess their decision just as much if not moreso.
What better way for the cabal to save face and move on - just the quiet DG retirement.
Jints Central is alive and well :)
DJ's crew knew he had ownership backing - he just had the best season of his career - AND the Giants had literally no other options.
Quite frankly I think DJ could have pushed the envelope a bit further if he really wanted to. He did NOT get any where close to a contract as some of the top tier guys did.
If I had to bet - that opt out was put in because of the insistence of Schoen and Daboll. I think ownership went along with it because despite their love for the kid, they must also have a bit of doubt in the back of their minds - otherwise Schoen's first order of business when he got here would have been to exercise DJ's 5th year option.
That's just me guessing.
Did Baker have any less leverage with the Bucs than Jones had with the Giants. No. Yet they let Baker become unrestricted.
Schoen had plenty of leverage and should have let Jones test the market and become fully unrestricted. Schoen negotiated against himself and got taken to the woodshed by Jones' team.
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
washington ended the year last year 12m under the cap. they easily could have maneuvered to sign jones over playing howell (who had completed a total of 11 passes as rookie before last year).
titans had 9m of room, hadnt yet drafted levis, had apparently given up on willis, and tannehill was entering his age 35 with 20m+ of potential salary space to create by cutting him.
falcons ended the year with 7m of cap space, they had been in on watson and were often rumored on lamar as well on the tag. their qb situation was a mess entering the year, which is why arthur smith was the odds on favorite to be the first coach fired.
all 3 of those teams ended up sucking and go through regime changes in large part because their QB situations were disasters. today their projected starters are QBs who were not on their roster 1 year ago. so they were QB shoppers and their head coaches were on the hot seat. if jones hit the open market i predict he would have gotten an even more favorable contract from one of those teams, probably atlanta, since that's ultimately what they ended up doing with 36 year old kirk cousins 1 year later off a popped achilles.
Ironically, the only 'plan' we've seen with any longevity is the six-year-running QB project.
I just don't buy that all these GMs and coaches are idiots. The problem is ownership.
So now he gets grossly overpaid and some want to give the Mara’s a pass? They were screwing us and themselves long before the negotiations even started.
Please stop giving them passes, this idiocy will continue
No way.
there was no world where he wasnt getting paid by 1 of the other 31 teams if he hit the open market. that is the same fantasy that had people thinking barkley wouldnt have gotten more than the nyg offered on the open market as he ended up doing a year later off a worse season.
The fantasy isn't that Jones might not get an offer. The fantasy is more likely thinking Jones was going to get what he received from Schoen.
When JS and Daboll were hired in 2022, John Mara said during the press conference that the team had done everything it could to screw up Jones and that he still believed in him. I don't know how we can all still be kidding ourselves that Mara is not involved in protecting a mediocre QB who has survived 2 former HCs and is quickly burning the credibility of a 3rd.
Even the fucking Jets have found a way to move on from their mistakes in drafting Darnold and Wilson, both of whom were considered better prospects than Jones, sooner than Mara will ever admit that the team made a mistake and that loyalty to mediocrity is not a virtue.
The chatter is that they wouldn't even take calls about trading him. I understand Barkley was the face of the Franchise, but even then, Schoen KNEW he didn't want his money tied up in a RB.
To me that's worse than the Jones thing, but there were ramifications of what kind of message trading Barkley would have sent to the locker room. Also, if they'd traded him, they might have been picking top 4.
I felt Jones had a good 2022 despite no name WRs and terrible OL. To me, Jones was responsible for most of those 2022 wins. The passing numbers looked low because of the talent around him, but they stayed close in games and Jones made enough plays to win those games. Then he won the Vikings playoff game. His arrow seemed to be pointing up, and he set himself up for his new contract.
By then, I'm sure Schoen wished he'd picked up Jones' 5 year option, but everyone thought that not doing that was a prudent move based on Jones history. Schoen even said if he had to pay more later, that would be "a good problem to have."
I'm also sure that Schoen would have preferred to pay Jones less than he did, but the market for what QBs get is what it is.
The other thing people don't seem to remember was that Jones kind of had the Giants over a barrel. If they'd just let Jones walk, there were no better QB options available to turn to.
Letting Jones walk would have meant a full year of Tyrod Taylor at QB1. If you believe that would have been better than Jones' 2022 season, I can't help you.
FWIW, I think it's Option 1. I think the Giants will enquire about the top QBs in the draft, but I think it's unlikely the Giants draft a QB this draft unless:
1) There's a guy they REALLY LOVE -- not just like.
2) They find a willing dance partner (not necessarily easy)
3) They feel he's worth the cost.
I could see a scenario where even if JJ McCarthy falls to them and 6, they pass on him, just like in 2018 when everyone said they MUST take a QB, and they passed on Darnold, Rosen, and Allen and took Barkley.
I know Giants Nation and the media will shit their cage if they don't draft a QB, but I also think THE GIANTS THEMSELVES are perfectly comfortable riding Jones for another year (providing he's healthy). And putting better pieces in place (like a stud #1WR) that will help DJ or WHOEVER's playing QB in the future.
They're paying Jones regardless, and yes, they'll probably try to restructure him in such a way that still lets them cut him after the season if he plays poorly.
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there was no world where he wasnt getting paid by 1 of the other 31 teams if he hit the open market. that is the same fantasy that had people thinking barkley wouldnt have gotten more than the nyg offered on the open market as he ended up doing a year later off a worse season.
The fantasy isn't that Jones might not get an offer. The fantasy is more likely thinking Jones was going to get what he received from Schoen.
that is just wrong. the second derek carr signed it was clear where the market value was. there is zero coincidence the jones deal got done a couple days later above that amount. geno smith had also already extended for a guarantee in excess of the franchise tag amount. the market price was pretty easy to peg and jones being a half decade+ younger than both of them off a better season made it a pretty simple 1+1 = 2 situation.
that is just wrong. the second derek carr signed it was clear where the market value was. there is zero coincidence the jones deal got done a couple days later above that amount. geno smith had also already extended for a guarantee in excess of the franchise tag amount. the market price was pretty easy to peg and jones being a half decade+ younger than both of them off a better season made it a pretty simple 1+1 = 2 situation.
After Seattle and the Saints where was the demand?
Jones signed on March 7th at 3:59PM.
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that is just wrong. the second derek carr signed it was clear where the market value was. there is zero coincidence the jones deal got done a couple days later above that amount. geno smith had also already extended for a guarantee in excess of the franchise tag amount. the market price was pretty easy to peg and jones being a half decade+ younger than both of them off a better season made it a pretty simple 1+1 = 2 situation.
After Seattle and the Saints where was the demand?
See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
This isn't about Jones per se.
It's about who is calling the shots and how that impact the franchise moving forward.
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had tagged Daniel Jones, we would all be saying, "thank God they only tagged him last year!"
and if they tagged him, and he had a good year, (as many in the organization obviously expected) what would it cost to sign him moving forward? every decision has moving parts, c'mon.
Schoen and Daboll didn't believe in Jones enough to even leverage the 5th year option.
That year, although they were winning games, they were doing so with a below average passing attack (yeah he contributed with his legs, but history tells us that's not sustainable)
He ended the year beating up bad defenses in the Colts and Vikings. But even with that, was stomped back to reality with a curb stomping by a REAL NFC team.
So I would just love the explanation - of going from no 5th year option, to the contract he got.
It's one thing for a fan to get swayed by that season. It's disturbing that the Front Office/Coaching staff did.
See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
Well, here we go with the impasse because I can easily go the other way with all of those.
I don't think ATL would have been in the Jones sweepstakes because they still wanted to see what they had in Ridder, who was just coming off his rookie year. Same with Washington. From everything I have read/heard, Washington was very bullish on Howell.
If those coaches were on the hot seat, why would those HC/GMs want to risk a big investment on a player like Jones with limited success? You are coming off as if Jones was coming off an All-Pro effort.
If you want to twist yourself into Tennesse, fine. I don't see it based on the relationship between Vrabel and Tannehill.
The more interesting idea may have been Vegas. But they eventually settled on JimG, who was also available and more accomplished.
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But let it go. One thread after another shitting on Jones and the contract. It gets old and depressing.
This isn't about Jones per se.
It's about who is calling the shots and how that impact the franchise moving forward.
Even in camp, it all looked great and optimism was high. But then came the Dallas game. Everything that could go wrong did, and in an instant it blew up in their faces. We all played sports, we know how it is --emotions matter and this team was shell shocked after that game with Dallas. It got even worse after Barkley went down, and the line was in disarray --they literally couldn't pick up a stunt early in the year if their life depended on it. What's more, Jones regressed. Mentally, he reverted back to Check down king.
Eventually the Oline settled, Barkly came back, and Tyrod didn't have the fear throwing down field and we saw how much better that was.
At this point, Jones is an injury waiting to happen. Last year was maybe not the best circumstances to evaluate him, but at this point it doesn't matter. The injuries alone are reason enough to move on, and Jones has never shown to be able to run the sort of offense Daboll has in mind.
So while I was never a Jones fan and never would have given him the contract they did, I can see how the thinking could have led the team to that conclusion.
1) We don't have the information they do in terms of what the play calls for, what gets discussed in the film room. Assuming as I believe the team signed off on the deal, which I believe they did, we have to accept that Jones must have come off much better given the information we don't have than he appears to fans.
2) All the circumstances around the disaster of week 1 and ensuing injuries are part of the story. It's like looking at the Eagles at the end of the year. They were a mess and no one wants to give NYG any credit for beating them. But at the same time --NYG was a similar mess early on in the year. IMO, it is hard to take all of that at face value and say this tells the full story.
So IMO, it is what it is. They fucked up and are ready to move on. They may not be able to recover from this. It looks like a disaster to me, so I try to ask the tough questions. It's easy to say, they suck at what they do and point fingers, or you can take a step back and ask --why is it that a smart football mind who has far more information to go by than us fans would make such a decision. The answers are either --Mara forced them, or, something like what I've outlined. My belief is the later, but that's just my opinion.
DJ's camp didn't have to worry about any outside influence or drumming up a market that may or may not have been there.
Our offense was torpedoed at that point, and the QB getting injured a much higher probability.
The question of blame is then (IMO) substantially mitigated.
We must remember... our O-line wasn't just below average, it was God-awful. This is true even if we pin some part of the blame for all the sacks on Jones.
What they should have done, as a compromise to all parties, is overpay Barkley. Pay those few extra millions to complete that 3 year deal w/ the first two guaranteed, instead of overpaying Jones - Franchise Jones. That way you keep both players, at least for the coming year (nod to Mara) and you went with the smaller overpay while still limiting your risk. Punt the Jones decision until next year.
I feel that Schoen was too stubborn over those few extra millions for Saquon and that is what actually got us where we are.
Gmaniac1 : 1:27 pm : link : reply
... looms large over all "Daniel Jones and last year" related questions. IMO.
Our offense was torpedoed at that point, and the QB getting injured a much higher probability.
The question of blame is then (IMO) substantially mitigated.
We must remember... our O-line wasn't just below average, it was God-awful. This is true even if we pin some part of the blame for all the sacks on Jones.
Good point, but wasn't that logic kind of torpedoed when the backups came in?
The Oline was still a miss - but the QBs were finding plays downfield....
From what I can see after following and rooting for the Giants for over 50 years last Giants GM who had typical NFL GM autonomy was Ernie. Meaning the GM builds the team the way he wants to, communicates with ownership as he makes his choices and works with them for consensus on large financial commitments.
I don't believe Schoen and Daboll have that setup.
I think the Jones contract was a combination of Option #2 & #3. Schoen and Daboll don't have complete autonomy, and in this case it did not matter what they thought about Jones. After the Viking playoff win and the coronation of Jones by John Mara plus owning the 25th pick in round 1 Schoen and Daboll had no viable option to change QBs.
The linked article is behind a pay wall. I am pushing the limit posting this much of it. But I think it explains why Daniel Jones got the contract he did. It was written just before Schoen and Daboll were hired.
When Ernie left that era of Giants football ended and that firewall left with him. The John, Chris and now Tim era began in 2012.
An executive of a rival NFL team with no family members in the personnel department understood how the Giants’ structure could create problems.
“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”
I don't see how anyone can read that article of more than a decade of dysfunction and think in the two years that Schoen and Daboll have worked for the Giants the three Mara’s have stepped aside allowed them to make all the football decisions.
‘This place is . . . messed up’: Under Maras’ hands-on ownership, Giants slide from model franchise to dysfunction - ( New Window )
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
You’re talking out of your ass. It’s uninteresting conjecture.
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Jets- wasn’t happening- they were all in on Rodgers.
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
You’re talking out of your ass. It’s uninteresting conjecture.
Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
But keeping making excuses for Jones. The truth can’t be that he’s a bad overpaid QB right?
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Our Star LT getting injured in Week 1...
Gmaniac1 : 1:27 pm : link : reply
... looms large over all "Daniel Jones and last year" related questions. IMO.
Our offense was torpedoed at that point, and the QB getting injured a much higher probability.
The question of blame is then (IMO) substantially mitigated.
We must remember... our O-line wasn't just below average, it was God-awful. This is true even if we pin some part of the blame for all the sacks on Jones.
Good point, but wasn't that logic kind of torpedoed when the backups came in?
The Oline was still a miss - but the QBs were finding plays downfield....
Wasn't Andrew Thomas back in the line-up when DeVito was QB?
It appears the Giants have done a service to the other 31 teams by handing out a contract so over valued that other QBs and agents can't even use it to comp.
Compare the NFL career success of Daniel Jones and Baker Mayfield and compare the contracts they signed the past two years.
Jones is not the first time the 3 Mara's have become a contract cautionary tale. See Galloway, Kenny or Rudolph, Kyle for contracts that the rest of the NFL reacted with "they did what?"
Schoen got boxed into a corner as 11th hour approached and he potentially could lose both Barkley and Jones.
How could he handle it to keep both? What involvement did ownership have in pushing him TO retain both?
What I think is clear, the earlier contract offer (at mid-season to Barkley), the contract offer after the season ended,
I think signals they tried to get Barkley signed, THEN would use the FT on Jones.
I truly believe THAT was the plan. Barkley not signing totally screwed that up.
Since QB is the more important position, Schoen then had to push to get Jones signed.
The contract was a hot mess, but he at least left himself an escape hatch after 2 years.
Horrific? absolutely
Catastrophic? not really That would be Watson's contract in Cleveland.
If this WAS the original thought process, #2 on Eric's list seems most probable. Ownership (who loved Saquon "like a son"), probably pushed for his retention, which caused Schoen to have to pivot at the deadline to keep both.
If it was completely left to him, I believe he would have let SB walk, and tagged Jones.
Total organizational failure.
And the smart move would have been to tag Barkley since the commitment was less expensive and negotiate with Jones. If he signed somewhere else, oh well, there were qb's left in FA and as it turned out, the best one was one of the least expensive. And if, as I expect, the market reacted to Jones with a big "meh", you could have gotten him back on a less expensive deal.
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See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
Well, here we go with the impasse because I can easily go the other way with all of those.
I don't think ATL would have been in the Jones sweepstakes because they still wanted to see what they had in Ridder, who was just coming off his rookie year. Same with Washington. From everything I have read/heard, Washington was very bullish on Howell.
If those coaches were on the hot seat, why would those HC/GMs want to risk a big investment on a player like Jones with limited success? You are coming off as if Jones was coming off an All-Pro effort.
If you want to twist yourself into Tennesse, fine. I don't see it based on the relationship between Vrabel and Tannehill.
The more interesting idea may have been Vegas. But they eventually settled on JimG, who was also available and more accomplished.
sam howell had completed 11 passes his entire rookie year. you think rivera was eager to put his job in his hands? within 2 months atlanta saw what they had with ridder, and arthur smith as it turns out as well.
tampa is another team you can probably add to the list. they signed baker 1 week into FA for "up to" 8.5m, and having seen a very similar type of season as jones 2022 in 2023, the same gm just committed another up to 115m to him.
baker was 18th in QBR in 2023, carr had been 14th in 2022, geno was 7th in 2022, jones was 6th in 2022 and the youngest of the group. someone was going to pay him.
Mara, on the other hand, seems to love himself some DJ regardless of the results. I wouldn't go as far as to say he absolutely mandated that Jones was resigned. However, there is no doubt in my mind that he made it *abundantly* clear that his preference was that Jones be resigned.
bw in dc : mute : 12/28/2022 12:30 pm : link
he lets Jones hit the open market. And maybe has a gentlemen's agreement with Team Jones for last look to match or counter.
If that happens, I think Miami moves on from Tua and invests in Jones. Probably 3 yrs/$100M.
just did a quick search and couldn't find the actual jones threads from march, but once carr signed jones price tag became very obvious and someone was going to pay it. neither schoen nor CAA are complete morons. every big deal gets done knowing what else is out there when a player is that close to the open market.
I can assure you that you won't get there.
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In comment 16441574 Eric on Li said:
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See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
Well, here we go with the impasse because I can easily go the other way with all of those.
I don't think ATL would have been in the Jones sweepstakes because they still wanted to see what they had in Ridder, who was just coming off his rookie year. Same with Washington. From everything I have read/heard, Washington was very bullish on Howell.
If those coaches were on the hot seat, why would those HC/GMs want to risk a big investment on a player like Jones with limited success? You are coming off as if Jones was coming off an All-Pro effort.
If you want to twist yourself into Tennesse, fine. I don't see it based on the relationship between Vrabel and Tannehill.
The more interesting idea may have been Vegas. But they eventually settled on JimG, who was also available and more accomplished.
sam howell had completed 11 passes his entire rookie year. you think rivera was eager to put his job in his hands? within 2 months atlanta saw what they had with ridder, and arthur smith as it turns out as well.
tampa is another team you can probably add to the list. they signed baker 1 week into FA for "up to" 8.5m, and having seen a very similar type of season as jones 2022 in 2023, the same gm just committed another up to 115m to him.
baker was 18th in QBR in 2023, carr had been 14th in 2022, geno was 7th in 2022, jones was 6th in 2022 and the youngest of the group. someone was going to pay him.
You can't be serious with this can you?
I understand why the Giants brought back Jones. That doesn't dismiss the fact they held all the leverage and gave him a bad contract they are now burned on.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
I'd speculate that Daboll was probably the least enthusiastic of the group having specifically limited the decisions Jones had to make in the offense. Combined with Schoen famously not valuing the RB position, the decision was made to focus on a shorter term contract for Jones that would allow them to franchise Barkley.
Unfortunately, those plans were clear to everyone in the entire world, and Jones's reps used it to their advantage in negotiating a contract he couldn't have gotten anywhere else but got from the Giants because they were faced with the tag deadline.
Schoen got boxed into a corner as 11th hour approached and he potentially could lose both Barkley and Jones.
How could he handle it to keep both? What involvement did ownership have in pushing him TO retain both?
What I think is clear, the earlier contract offer (at mid-season to Barkley), the contract offer after the season ended,
I think signals they tried to get Barkley signed, THEN would use the FT on Jones.
I truly believe THAT was the plan. Barkley not signing totally screwed that up.
Since QB is the more important position, Schoen then had to push to get Jones signed.
The contract was a hot mess, but he at least left himself an escape hatch after 2 years.
Horrific? absolutely
Catastrophic? not really That would be Watson's contract in Cleveland.
If this WAS the original thought process, #2 on Eric's list seems most probable. Ownership (who loved Saquon "like a son"), probably pushed for his retention, which caused Schoen to have to pivot at the deadline to keep both.
If it was completely left to him, I believe he would have let SB walk, and tagged Jones.
Neither answer is good. Either ownership is still meddling or the new GM/HC are making terrible decisions.
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
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but I think the wrong question is being asked here.
Schoen got boxed into a corner as 11th hour approached and he potentially could lose both Barkley and Jones.
How could he handle it to keep both? What involvement did ownership have in pushing him TO retain both?
What I think is clear, the earlier contract offer (at mid-season to Barkley), the contract offer after the season ended,
I think signals they tried to get Barkley signed, THEN would use the FT on Jones.
I truly believe THAT was the plan. Barkley not signing totally screwed that up.
Since QB is the more important position, Schoen then had to push to get Jones signed.
The contract was a hot mess, but he at least left himself an escape hatch after 2 years.
Horrific? absolutely
Catastrophic? not really That would be Watson's contract in Cleveland.
If this WAS the original thought process, #2 on Eric's list seems most probable. Ownership (who loved Saquon "like a son"), probably pushed for his retention, which caused Schoen to have to pivot at the deadline to keep both.
If it was completely left to him, I believe he would have let SB walk, and tagged Jones.
Neither answer is good. Either ownership is still meddling or the new GM/HC are making terrible decisions.
I mean, you just asked in another thread why SS was playing. Maybe the GM/HC ARE making bad decisions.
It's not that hard Eric. Daboll and Schoen had a terrible season last year and it doesn't fall at the feet of Daniel Jones. It falls at the feet of Brian Daboll.
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If Schoen is smart...
bw in dc : mute : 12/28/2022 12:30 pm : link
he lets Jones hit the open market. And maybe has a gentlemen's agreement with Team Jones for last look to match or counter.
If that happens, I think Miami moves on from Tua and invests in Jones. Probably 3 yrs/$100M.
just did a quick search and couldn't find the actual jones threads from march, but once carr signed jones price tag became very obvious and someone was going to pay it. neither schoen nor CAA are complete morons. every big deal gets done knowing what else is out there when a player is that close to the open market.
Okay, I was spitballing on Miami, but my hypothetical was $33 AAV versus $40. And only $100M v $160M, significantly below the what was actually paid.
For instance, why was Shepherd on the roster? and we let Crowder go and had no punt returner. I don't see how Daboll could possibly have been happy with that decision.
On the other hand why was Peart kept on the roster while letting our better backup go to Philly.
How about playing Ezudo at tackle when he never practiced there?
Keeping your injured field goal kicker on the roster?
Barkley should have been tagged or traded and Jones franchised. From day one that was the correct move.
I think Schoen, Daboll and Mara all made terrible decisions through out the course of the year. They are all to blame.
That is the grim reality and you have to really question this organization's ability to get things together.
I hope we aren't looking at the three stooges.
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you were consistent in wanting to let jones test the market but even before he won a playoff game you expected him to have a market and get 100m.
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If Schoen is smart...
bw in dc : mute : 12/28/2022 12:30 pm : link
he lets Jones hit the open market. And maybe has a gentlemen's agreement with Team Jones for last look to match or counter.
If that happens, I think Miami moves on from Tua and invests in Jones. Probably 3 yrs/$100M.
just did a quick search and couldn't find the actual jones threads from march, but once carr signed jones price tag became very obvious and someone was going to pay it. neither schoen nor CAA are complete morons. every big deal gets done knowing what else is out there when a player is that close to the open market.
Okay, I was spitballing on Miami, but my hypothetical was $33 AAV versus $40. And only $100M v $160M, significantly below the what was actually paid.
you have been a jones hater since before his draft year when you said ryan finley was better and yet before derek carr set the market, and even before he won a playoff game, you priced him beyond the tag amount.
you dont think it's possible on the open market any 1 of the 31 other GMs liked him more than you?
you are an avowed fan of QBR, how do you think it's reasonable that on the open market a younger Jones would have been paid less than older players whom he had better QBRs than (among plenty of other metrics including turnover%, W/L record, playoff performance, etc)?
again i am not knocking your prediction, it was 3 months ahead of the actual market being set. just pointing out that even before that famed minnesota game everyone, including a long standing non-jones believer yourself, was projecting that he had played well enough to have a 9 figure FA market beyond the tag amount.
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In comment 16441657 TyreeHelmet said:
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
This is fucking hysterical. Your whole argument is based on the fact that I - as a fan - can’t name the offers he would’ve gotten if the Giants didn’t sign him? That the Giants somehow didn’t do their due diligence in putting an offer together?
You’re a fan talking out of your ass.
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In comment 16441800 mittenedman said:
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In comment 16441657 TyreeHelmet said:
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
This is fucking hysterical. Your whole argument is based on the fact that I - as a fan - can’t name the offers he would’ve gotten if the Giants didn’t sign him? That the Giants somehow didn’t do their due diligence in putting an offer together?
You’re a fan talking out of your ass.
You still can't name 1 other team that might have even given him that contract. His contract was not 'fair market"- not sure how thats debatable.
The Giants overpaid their own player and screwed up. Why is that so hard to admit as a fan?
Everyone is really overreacting to a bad month of football and a freak injury.
Yes, I'll say it again, you guys are overreacting. Lots of fans including myself were on board with the contract that basically guaranteed him 2 years to keep improving while they built the team. Tough to see into the future and know that he would be pressured or hit on basically every other snap and then would eventually tear his knee on a freak play.
Wait and see what happens with the draft and then go from there. But I imagine that most of BBI will probably freak out and talk about how bad Jones sucks for the next month, and then do the same thing for the next 6 months after that if we don't draft a QB in the first round. Which by the way we probably won't do.
Everyone is really overreacting to a bad month of football and a freak injury.
Will your opinion be different if it comes to light that his 2023 neck injury was related to his 2021 neck injury?
you have been a jones hater since before his draft year when you said ryan finley was better and yet before derek carr set the market, and even before he won a playoff game, you priced him beyond the tag amount.
you dont think it's possible on the open market any 1 of the 31 other GMs liked him more than you?
you are an avowed fan of QBR, how do you think it's reasonable that on the open market a younger Jones would have been paid less than older players whom he had better QBRs than (among plenty of other metrics including turnover%, W/L record, playoff performance, etc)?
again i am not knocking your prediction, it was 3 months ahead of the actual market being set. just pointing out that even before that famed minnesota game everyone, including a long standing non-jones believer yourself, was projecting that he had played well enough to have a 9 figure FA market beyond the tag amount.
Sure, a GM may have liked Jones more than me, but that doesn't mean that GM would have forked over the same contract Schoen did. I see a much narrower market than you.
Just as much as you think the market would have been ga-ga over Jones because he is younger. I think the market could just as easily have concluded Jones was coming off one decent year, and that didn't entitle him to the next big contract because he was next in line.
For example, Jones certainly didn't have a better resume than Carr, who set the market days prior. Carr was much more productive and predictable in almost every key metric over a longer period of time. Again, Jones had one decent year.
But I want to make sure we're on the same page here before we move on. Your position is Jones would have received a contract by one or more teams of 4/$160M, $82M guaranteed if he was allowed to test the market. Correct?
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In comment 16441844 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 16441800 mittenedman said:
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In comment 16441657 TyreeHelmet said:
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
This is fucking hysterical. Your whole argument is based on the fact that I - as a fan - can’t name the offers he would’ve gotten if the Giants didn’t sign him? That the Giants somehow didn’t do their due diligence in putting an offer together?
You’re a fan talking out of your ass.
You still can't name 1 other team that might have even given him that contract. His contract was not 'fair market"- not sure how thats debatable.
The Giants overpaid their own player and screwed up. Why is that so hard to admit as a fan?
The same reason it’s so hard to admit you’re talking out of your ass. And I’m calling out your bullshit. You have no idea what other teams were going to offer, and you have no proof Schoen didn’t do his due diligence constructing a fair market offer.
You’re just whining. The guy above put it best - quiet desperation.
The contract isn’t some unforgivable mistake - Jones got injured. That’s football. Regardless of what your position is we all end up in the same place. It’s time to move on. Put the pitchfork down, grow up & stop whining.
But I want to make sure we're on the same page here before we move on. Your position is Jones would have received a contract by one or more teams of 4/$160M, $82M guaranteed if he was allowed to test the market. Correct?
yes i expect that to be the case no different than i expect that had baker made it to FA this year he would have done as good or better as he did (same with geno last year). i think the market is what it is for all these guys and agents dont generally sign for less than they can get elsewhere, or else they dont sign.
I'd speculate that Daboll was probably the least enthusiastic of the group having specifically limited the decisions Jones had to make in the offense. Combined with Schoen famously not valuing the RB position, the decision was made to focus on a shorter term contract for Jones that would allow them to franchise Barkley.
Unfortunately, those plans were clear to everyone in the entire world, and Jones's reps used it to their advantage in negotiating a contract he couldn't have gotten anywhere else but got from the Giants because they were faced with the tag deadline.
+1
Eric on Li : 3/8/2023 7:09 pm : link
A+ for creativity, flexibility, no drama execution
solid B+/A for the deal itself
i think there was only a little bit of daylight for this contract to have been better but not been so overly favorable that it was worth signing over the tag. i think getting a 5th year would have been a positive, but id imagine the cost of getting was more expensive.
i think this is a really good deal for both sides, but perhaps a slightly better deal for jones than the nyg depending on the incentives because based on the PFT report im thinking the incentives are much more likely to pay out than the giants using the emergency chutes after year 2 or 3.
yes i expect that to be the case no different than i expect that had baker made it to FA this year he would have done as good or better as he did (same with geno last year). i think the market is what it is for all these guys and agents dont generally sign for less than they can get elsewhere, or else they dont sign.
In essence, your position is the "next in line" theory. And Jones did enough to be in that line.
My position is a GM would have been more prudent by wanting to see more. And structured a deal with less years, less AAV, and less guaranteed money.
BTW, I think the Bucs made a mistake with Baker, too, although they got a much better bargain for Baker than we got for Jones. Why do you think Team Baker signed for that team friendly deal?
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yes i expect that to be the case no different than i expect that had baker made it to FA this year he would have done as good or better as he did (same with geno last year). i think the market is what it is for all these guys and agents dont generally sign for less than they can get elsewhere, or else they dont sign.
In essence, your position is the "next in line" theory. And Jones did enough to be in that line.
My position is a GM would have been more prudent by wanting to see more. And structured a deal with less years, less AAV, and less guaranteed money.
BTW, I think the Bucs made a mistake with Baker, too, although they got a much better bargain for Baker than we got for Jones. Why do you think Team Baker signed for that team friendly deal?
i also dont love the baker deal so i would not call it team friendly.
remember baker was on the open market last year 3x within the last 12 months and obviously none of those prior tries were getting him 9 figs. It took Cleveland months to trade him, he got waived in Carolina, and then last year on the open market all he got was the 1 year deal in tampa.
he just got himself $40m fully guaranteed (50m total gtd) and kept himself in a situation with good receivers that he has already been able to succeed in. i think it is a mutually beneficial deal, which is why both sides were willing to agree to it. i didnt love the geno smith deal last year but that worked out fine for SEA, so i could see something similar working out here for tampa.
players who get tagged or threatened with tags almost always end up getting the equivalent of 2 tags guaranteed (or else they just dont extend).
That the Giants only effectively guaranteed two years, was better than I expected.
My overwhelming preference was a one year agreement.
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In comment 16441922 mittenedman said:
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In comment 16441844 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 16441800 mittenedman said:
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In comment 16441657 TyreeHelmet said:
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
This is fucking hysterical. Your whole argument is based on the fact that I - as a fan - can’t name the offers he would’ve gotten if the Giants didn’t sign him? That the Giants somehow didn’t do their due diligence in putting an offer together?
You’re a fan talking out of your ass.
You still can't name 1 other team that might have even given him that contract. His contract was not 'fair market"- not sure how thats debatable.
The Giants overpaid their own player and screwed up. Why is that so hard to admit as a fan?
The same reason it’s so hard to admit you’re talking out of your ass. And I’m calling out your bullshit. You have no idea what other teams were going to offer, and you have no proof Schoen didn’t do his due diligence constructing a fair market offer.
You’re just whining. The guy above put it best - quiet desperation.
The contract isn’t some unforgivable mistake - Jones got injured. That’s football. Regardless of what your position is we all end up in the same place. It’s time to move on. Put the pitchfork down, grow up & stop whining.
I am critiquing the teams most impactful and important personnel decision they have made in years. I provided reasons why I believe his market was limited and he wasn't getting that contract from another team.
You have provided zero reasons on how or why a team would have signed him to that contract. Fans are allowed to criticize teams moves- thats part of being a fan. That's not whining or holding up a pitchfork. It's not unforgiveable but its a major mistake that was avoidable and Schoen must correct. Again the full on defense of Jones and this contract is bizarre.
Injuries will play a part but the reason they will move on from Jones is due to his poor play. Don't get that twisted.
That the Giants only effectively guaranteed two years, was better than I expected.
My overwhelming preference was a one year agreement.
i expected the tag through most of the season and you might remember once the deal came out, i was surprised that they deflated jones' year 1 as much as they did while saying the tag was "worst case".
i took those things and the contract they gave him to mean they liked jones more than expected and would have probably caved on whatever else they needed to at the 11th hour to get him extended. he got about as much guaranteed out of the contract as i expected but the giants got less out of it with just the 2 option years.
all in all the deal tracked with the comps, as they usually do. if jones repeated 2022 the deal would look fine. it's tied for qb13 right now and after tua extends it will be qb14.
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In comment 16441566 UberAlias said:
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But let it go. One thread after another shitting on Jones and the contract. It gets old and depressing.
This isn't about Jones per se.
It's about who is calling the shots and how that impact the franchise moving forward.
Here is what I think. I do think Schoen and Daboll made the call. I think Jones did show some things in 2022. That the feeling of the staff was that Jones performed well even with mediocre wide receivers and Oline. The situation prevented them from opening up the offense but based on what they saw, more of that was on rest of offense than Jones himself. They referred back to Jones year as a rookie and convinced themselves that Jones had it in him to add the dimension of a downfield passing game, they just needed to improve in other areas.
Even in camp, it all looked great and optimism was high. But then came the Dallas game. Everything that could go wrong did, and in an instant it blew up in their faces. We all played sports, we know how it is --emotions matter and this team was shell shocked after that game with Dallas. It got even worse after Barkley went down, and the line was in disarray --they literally couldn't pick up a stunt early in the year if their life depended on it. What's more, Jones regressed. Mentally, he reverted back to Check down king.
Eventually the Oline settled, Barkly came back, and Tyrod didn't have the fear throwing down field and we saw how much better that was.
At this point, Jones is an injury waiting to happen. Last year was maybe not the best circumstances to evaluate him, but at this point it doesn't matter. The injuries alone are reason enough to move on, and Jones has never shown to be able to run the sort of offense Daboll has in mind.
So while I was never a Jones fan and never would have given him the contract they did, I can see how the thinking could have led the team to that conclusion.
1) We don't have the information they do in terms of what the play calls for, what gets discussed in the film room. Assuming as I believe the team signed off on the deal, which I believe they did, we have to accept that Jones must have come off much better given the information we don't have than he appears to fans.
2) All the circumstances around the disaster of week 1 and ensuing injuries are part of the story. It's like looking at the Eagles at the end of the year. They were a mess and no one wants to give NYG any credit for beating them. But at the same time --NYG was a similar mess early on in the year. IMO, it is hard to take all of that at face value and say this tells the full story.
So IMO, it is what it is. They fucked up and are ready to move on. They may not be able to recover from this. It looks like a disaster to me, so I try to ask the tough questions. It's easy to say, they suck at what they do and point fingers, or you can take a step back and ask --why is it that a smart football mind who has far more information to go by than us fans would make such a decision. The answers are either --Mara forced them, or, something like what I've outlined. My belief is the later, but that's just my opinion.
Then shit happened.
Schoen did great. We signed players and can draft a replacement high in the first round if we want. It will not cripple us even though the worst has happned I will not be unhappy with any combination of Daniel Jones, Drew, Lock, or any QB they draft in the first round, as long as the offensive line gels, and we add another playmaker at wide receiver.
If we can move up and get our guy, go if you have conviction, I am ok with sacrificing future picks, if I hit a home run at qb in the draft we can play with fake money like Philly to compensate for the lost picks. KEY is to only do that if you hit the home run at QB. If I can’t get my guy, I like Odunze. A high character wide out in the mold Larry Fitzgerald. Penix has. VERY high ceiling. Arm talent is elite. I would up to get him in the first after the wide out.
players who get tagged or threatened with tags almost always end up getting the equivalent of 2 tags guaranteed (or else they just dont extend).
I could have sworn you often say the next QB up for a contract will do better than the prior.
I recall you saying that once Herbert signs, then Burrow will get that plus X, and then the next QB will get Burrow plus X, etc. Thus, "next in line"...
Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.
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Tough to call something a "colossal mistake" after he played 6 games and was pressured at a historic rate for a month straight.
Everyone is really overreacting to a bad month of football and a freak injury.
Will your opinion be different if it comes to light that his 2023 neck injury was related to his 2021 neck injury?
Well, sure. I don’t see that happening. And he injured his neck in 2023 because he was hit on basically every throw he made except the Cardinals game. Look at the replays of the Dallas game. Shocked he made it out injury free in that one.
The OL was an abomination to the sport the first month of the year, again besides one half.
But he wasn't a rookie in '22. That was his fourth season. And let's face it...'22 is sure AF looking like an outlier, and that's in a season where he threw all of 15 TDs in 16 games. In the current NFL, that's nothing.
But he wasn't a rookie in '22. That was his fourth season. And let's face it...'22 is sure AF looking like an outlier, and that's in a season where he threw all of 15 TDs in 16 games. In the current NFL, that's nothing.
Lots of people look at Daniel Jones like he was an immaculate conception in 2022 and we should just collectively pretend the previous 4 years shouldn't count on his report card.
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my theory is free agents have agents who usually get their clients whatever the market value is. if in a negotiation a player's agent is getting threatened with a tag, as jones was last year, that sets them up to do well. they know they already have $32m guaranteed in their pocket when starting the negotiation.
players who get tagged or threatened with tags almost always end up getting the equivalent of 2 tags guaranteed (or else they just dont extend).
I could have sworn you often say the next QB up for a contract will do better than the prior.
I recall you saying that once Herbert signs, then Burrow will get that plus X, and then the next QB will get Burrow plus X, etc. Thus, "next in line"...
Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.
generally that's how the FA market works since the cap goes up every year, i was just confused by the name i guess.
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To some, it's like he was drafted in '22 & then '23 happened. If that was the case, sure...I could see throwing out '23 & being like, 'Well. It was a shitstorm.'
But he wasn't a rookie in '22. That was his fourth season. And let's face it...'22 is sure AF looking like an outlier, and that's in a season where he threw all of 15 TDs in 16 games. In the current NFL, that's nothing.
Lots of people look at Daniel Jones like he was an immaculate conception in 2022 and we should just collectively pretend the previous 4 years shouldn't count on his report card.
that's likely closer to how the current regime views him than any fan.
Everyone is really overreacting to a bad month of football and a freak injury.
Yes, I'll say it again, you guys are overreacting. Lots of fans including myself were on board with the contract that basically guaranteed him 2 years to keep improving while they built the team. Tough to see into the future and know that he would be pressured or hit on basically every other snap and then would eventually tear his knee on a freak play.
Wait and see what happens with the draft and then go from there. But I imagine that most of BBI will probably freak out and talk about how bad Jones sucks for the next month, and then do the same thing for the next 6 months after that if we don't draft a QB in the first round. Which by the way we probably won't do.
For the millionth time it’s not 6 games, is more than 3 years of bad football
Many of us.
I know Schoen and Daboll had tons of information we don’t.
They signed him.
Chew on that.
Imagine exceeding expectations in NY as a new HC and GM. He was worth more to NY than any other team. (of course) We have a reasonable out, the one we need and you are all still acting like it was a mistake. WHILE WE ARE ALL DISCUSSING DRAFTING A QB THIS YEAR. Any self awareness at all? You are asking way too much of them in that spot. They signed him, it sounds like the kid is done. I would tell my kid to quit there. Neck x2. I was done from there. We can be loyal and let him try if the doctors clear him as long as the replacement is here. I don’t think Jones plays again though.
They had an amazing opportunity after 2022 in which many of us knew it was an illusion.
After a very good season we won a playoff game - we could've dumped. If they couldn't see how perfect of an opportunity they had - then they are all to blame. They took on way too much risk.
Many of us.
I know Schoen and Daboll had tons of information we don’t.
They signed him.
Chew on that.
Imagine exceeding expectations in NY as a new HC and GM. He was worth more to NY than any other team. (of course) We have a reasonable out, the one we need and you are all still acting like it was a mistake. WHILE WE ARE ALL DISCUSSING DRAFTING A QB THIS YEAR. Any self awareness at all? You are asking way too much of them in that spot. They signed him, it sounds like the kid is done. I would tell my kid to quit there. Neck x2. I was done from there. We can be loyal and let him try if the doctors clear him as long as the replacement is here. I don’t think Jones plays again though.
If thye had a ton more information then it's obvious they are reading the wrong information. You can say DG had a ton more inormation too.
This is why enterprises fail.
The Giants have been failing the self-analysis test for over a decade now. Very frustrating to watch.
If we either did not make the playoffs of lost that game, I dont think we offer Jones that contract.
Ownership tasted the playoffs and wanted to keep it rolling. They thought all we needed to do was get Jones more weapons.
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When an organization screws up it's most important decision, unless there is some self-reflection not only on the decision, but the decision-making process, then the same type of mistake is likely to happen again.
This is why enterprises fail.
The Giants have been failing the self-analysis test for over a decade now. Very frustrating to watch.
He got injured guys. It happens. That doesn’t qualify as a screwed up decision. Put the pitchforks away.
Jones was sacked 30 times last season in six games. in the 11 games that he did not play, the Giants still allowed an average of five sacks per game. So don’t give me that bit about Jones being responsible for a significant number of the sacks. In 2022, he was sacked 44 times and still managed to lead the team into the playoffs and a playoff victory. In 2020, in 14 games he was sacked 43 times.
The only time that Eli took over 40 sacks was 47 in 2018. That season, despite the brilliant rookie season of Barkley, and despite over 1000 yards of receptions in 12 games by Beckham, the team for the year was 5–11. In the Super Bowl winning years of 2007 and 2008 Eli was sacked 27 and 28 times, and Eli was no mobile quarterback.
The O-Line that gave up the third most sacks in history was also ranked by one of those services 31st in run blocking.
This persecution of Jones is the worst I have seen on this board since a loud and vocal group got on Hakeem Nicks for “dogging it.” It seemed to them that he was not really trying that hard in the preseason. This was ridiculous, as it was his contract year. No way a guy with millions at stake in his next contract wouldn’t be trying his hardest all season. I practiced law in New York and New Jersey, and to me this is a clear case with Nicks and Jones of ignoring the evidence, and making an emotional decision. A lynch mob mentality.
I think my pedigree is a Giants’ fan is as good as anyone here. I was a fan when Frank Gifford at the flanker position was catching passes from Y.A. Tittle. I stuck with the team through every one of its 17 years of not making the postseason. When I was in Massachusetts, and I couldn’t get the game on the radio, I would drive south until I could pick up the signal from Rhode Island.
I agree with Phil Simms that Jones has the talent, but it is his injuries that will do him in. There is a real parallel with Simms here, as he only played three or four games in his fourth and fifth seasons in the league, was replaced by Parcells with Scott Brunner at the beginning of his sixth year. And came very close to losing his whole career as a starter. And Jones, if he gets the chance to start next season, will also miss having Barkley beside him in the backfield.
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In comment 16441266 Eric from BBI said:
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When an organization screws up it's most important decision, unless there is some self-reflection not only on the decision, but the decision-making process, then the same type of mistake is likely to happen again.
This is why enterprises fail.
The Giants have been failing the self-analysis test for over a decade now. Very frustrating to watch.
He got injured guys. It happens. That doesn’t qualify as a screwed up decision. Put the pitchforks away.
It was a screwed up decision, that’s not debatable. Injuries are not the reason they are moving on from Jones. They’ll definitely spin in that way but it’s not the truth.
There are not many Eli Mannings out there and trying to catch lightning in a bottle by drafting the second coming is both foolhardy and risky. We already had a Duke QB bust and now we were staking our future on drafting this kid.
Meanwhile, when other franchises like Arizona and Philly drafted their respective wunderkinds..they pivoted quickly and we doubled down.
We also drafted Saquon extremely high just as the value of a running back was reaching the apex and starting to slide down the value chart of players.
We put everything on these two players and suffered because of it. I think Mara had everything to do with Gettleman drafting these two players where they did. I also think that Mara had a large part in that DJ contract extension.
So, if my opinion is true, then Joe has political capital to remain the Giants GM and maybe have a freer reign to build a winner without the Mara Meddling Machine looking over his shoulder!
Bingo!
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In comment 16442332 BrettNYG10 said:
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In comment 16441266 Eric from BBI said:
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When an organization screws up it's most important decision, unless there is some self-reflection not only on the decision, but the decision-making process, then the same type of mistake is likely to happen again.
This is why enterprises fail.
The Giants have been failing the self-analysis test for over a decade now. Very frustrating to watch.
He got injured guys. It happens. That doesn’t qualify as a screwed up decision. Put the pitchforks away.
It was a screwed up decision, that’s not debatable. Injuries are not the reason they are moving on from Jones. They’ll definitely spin in that way but it’s not the truth.
Keep pulling those opinions out of your ass.
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When an organization screws up it's most important decision, unless there is some self-reflection not only on the decision, but the decision-making process, then the same type of mistake is likely to happen again.
This is why enterprises fail.
The Giants have been failing the self-analysis test for over a decade now. Very frustrating to watch.
This is correct and really not debatable. Now, predictably, the injuries can be used as part of the justification to pull the escape hatch.
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In comment 16442377 mittenedman said:
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In comment 16442332 BrettNYG10 said:
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In comment 16441266 Eric from BBI said:
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When an organization screws up it's most important decision, unless there is some self-reflection not only on the decision, but the decision-making process, then the same type of mistake is likely to happen again.
This is why enterprises fail.
The Giants have been failing the self-analysis test for over a decade now. Very frustrating to watch.
He got injured guys. It happens. That doesn’t qualify as a screwed up decision. Put the pitchforks away.
It was a screwed up decision, that’s not debatable. Injuries are not the reason they are moving on from Jones. They’ll definitely spin in that way but it’s not the truth.
Keep pulling those opinions out of your ass.
What “opinion out of my ass”?
Just to be clear, you think signing him to that contract was a good decision? And you think they are looking for a new QB only or mainly because of the injuries? Funny how Cincy or the chargers aren’t looking for new QBs when their guys get injured….
How could you possibly argue either of those positions? Explain that.
Jones was sacked 30 times last season in six games. in the 11 games that he did not play, the Giants still allowed an average of five sacks per game. So don’t give me that bit about Jones being responsible for a significant number of the sacks. In 2022, he was sacked 44 times and still managed to lead the team into the playoffs and a playoff victory. In 2020, in 14 games he was sacked 43 times.
The only time that Eli took over 40 sacks was 47 in 2018. That season, despite the brilliant rookie season of Barkley, and despite over 1000 yards of receptions in 12 games by Beckham, the team for the year was 5–11. In the Super Bowl winning years of 2007 and 2008 Eli was sacked 27 and 28 times, and Eli was no mobile quarterback.
The O-Line that gave up the third most sacks in history was also ranked by one of those services 31st in run blocking.
This persecution of Jones is the worst I have seen on this board since a loud and vocal group got on Hakeem Nicks for “dogging it.” It seemed to them that he was not really trying that hard in the preseason. This was ridiculous, as it was his contract year. No way a guy with millions at stake in his next contract wouldn’t be trying his hardest all season. I practiced law in New York and New Jersey, and to me this is a clear case with Nicks and Jones of ignoring the evidence, and making an emotional decision. A lynch mob mentality.
I think my pedigree is a Giants’ fan is as good as anyone here. I was a fan when Frank Gifford at the flanker position was catching passes from Y.A. Tittle. I stuck with the team through every one of its 17 years of not making the postseason. When I was in Massachusetts, and I couldn’t get the game on the radio, I would drive south until I could pick up the signal from Rhode Island.
I agree with Phil Simms that Jones has the talent, but it is his injuries that will do him in. There is a real parallel with Simms here, as he only played three or four games in his fourth and fifth seasons in the league, was replaced by Parcells with Scott Brunner at the beginning of his sixth year. And came very close to losing his whole career as a starter. And Jones, if he gets the chance to start next season, will also miss having Barkley beside him in the backfield.
How many times are you going to copy and paste this exact comment?
If Jones is a post June 1 cut the giants will carry 22m in 2025, correct?
If he can’t pass a physical next March and they cut him they will carry 45mil in 2025, do I have this right?
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In comment 16441266 Eric from BBI said:
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When an organization screws up it's most important decision, unless there is some self-reflection not only on the decision, but the decision-making process, then the same type of mistake is likely to happen again.
This is why enterprises fail.
The Giants have been failing the self-analysis test for over a decade now. Very frustrating to watch.
He got injured guys. It happens. That doesn’t qualify as a screwed up decision. Put the pitchforks away.
He "got" injured? What about the other years? He has been "often-injured (or so much so there was a concern he may have to retire)," hasn't he?
After 2022 you had all this risk and it wasignored just as you are ignroing. So, please, lets put The Blue Shades away.
I agree with Phil Simms that Jones has the talent, but it is his injuries that will do him in. backfield.
I agree to a certain extent. Too many fans ignore 2022 as if it doesn't exist. The OL was a disaster. Past coaching prior to 2022 was a disaster.
With all that said - why are you still pretending like it's the Frank Gifford era in regard to your current post? Phil Simms wants to or recently wanted keep him this year-- that is/was obviously reckless.
There was no reason to pay Jones after 2022 with what he got. It was reckless just as Simms comments are reckless just as you are defending the decision to have kept Jones for such a large contract reckless if you are siding with Simms.
But if you pull yourself away from the Frank Gifford era - then what are you going to do today - now with the draft? IMO we should avoid continuing to be reckless and out ourselves in a position to get a QB.
" it was only 6 games"
" the Oline has completely destroyed him"
" he was hit on every single throw in 2023"
There's plenty more but I can't keep reading these.
Yeah, but what if DJ called our bluff and actually took an offer elsewhere, leaving us with only Tyrod and Tommy D for the year? We probably would have had a terrible season and been picking at like #6 in the draft! ;-)
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As the Bucs did with Mayfield.
Yeah, but what if DJ called our bluff and actually took an offer elsewhere, leaving us with only Tyrod and Tommy D for the year? We probably would have had a terrible season and been picking at like #6 in the draft! ;-)
1-- But if you knew you were going to negotiate with him and pay the big salary (instead of going all-into sign him), you would have developed timelines and a backup plan.
2-- Also, if you weren;t going to sign him, then why go after Waller? WHy sign Barkley?
3-- with 1 and two above also in play we probably would be picking ahead of 6.