Last offseason, the decision was made by "the Giants" to retain both Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. The team tried to get a deal done with both before the Franchise Tag deadline. No deal could be reached with Barkley. The Giants reached a last-minute deal with Jones that allowed the team to slap the Franchise Tag on Barkley.
When the dust settled, Barkley's non-exclusive Franchise equaled a 1-year, $10.091 commitment. However, the team restructured that deal in July to $11 million, including a $2 million signing bonus.
Which brings us to the point of this thread: Jones' 4-year, $160 million contract including a $36,000,000 signing bonus, $92,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $40,000,000.
2023 could not have gone worse for Jones. He suffered his second career neck injury in Week 5 and missed the next three games. When he returned in Week 9, he tore the ACL in his right knee, finishing his season. On top of all of that, Jones was 1-5 in games that he did start, finishing the year with just 909 passing yards, two touchdowns, and six interceptions. His injuries and performance issues now put into question his long-term tenure with the organization.
NFL owners are rich. Bad contracts are commonplace. But if I'm the owner of the Giants, I am asking some serious questions right now because just a year ago, I was asked to write a $100 million check to a player who may be on his way out in a year. The only way I'm not pissed at someone else is if I am the one pushed for a long-term deal for Jones.
The smarter decision during the 2023 offseason would have been to let Barkley walk in free agency and tag Jones. So my question is this? Who is chiefly responsible for making the decision on the Jones' contract?
Option #1: While Mara will provide his opinion, he completely defers to Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll on personnel issues. The decision to retain Jones with a huge contract is completely on them. And Mara and Tisch have every right to be really upset at this point, especially if the team is truly considering drafting another quarterback.
Option #2: All parties are equally responsible, Schoen and Daboll not only believed in Jones, but so did ownership and family members such as Tim McDonnell and Chris Mara. Schoen and Daboll don't have complete autonomy, but in this case it did not matter.
Option #3: Schoen and Mara had their doubts about Jones, but ownership/family pushed for a long-term commitment based on what ended up being fool's gold (the "legendary" Vikings playoff game).
The public will probably never know the truth, but it is an important question because someone screwed the pooch big time. The contract erased the cap gains the team made in 2022 and set back the rebuild by at least one year, and probably two. It was a colossal mistake. And who is largely responsible may determine how shaky the ground is around Schoen and Daboll.
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there was no world where he wasnt getting paid by 1 of the other 31 teams if he hit the open market. that is the same fantasy that had people thinking barkley wouldnt have gotten more than the nyg offered on the open market as he ended up doing a year later off a worse season.
The fantasy isn't that Jones might not get an offer. The fantasy is more likely thinking Jones was going to get what he received from Schoen.
that is just wrong. the second derek carr signed it was clear where the market value was. there is zero coincidence the jones deal got done a couple days later above that amount. geno smith had also already extended for a guarantee in excess of the franchise tag amount. the market price was pretty easy to peg and jones being a half decade+ younger than both of them off a better season made it a pretty simple 1+1 = 2 situation.
that is just wrong. the second derek carr signed it was clear where the market value was. there is zero coincidence the jones deal got done a couple days later above that amount. geno smith had also already extended for a guarantee in excess of the franchise tag amount. the market price was pretty easy to peg and jones being a half decade+ younger than both of them off a better season made it a pretty simple 1+1 = 2 situation.
After Seattle and the Saints where was the demand?
Jones signed on March 7th at 3:59PM.
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that is just wrong. the second derek carr signed it was clear where the market value was. there is zero coincidence the jones deal got done a couple days later above that amount. geno smith had also already extended for a guarantee in excess of the franchise tag amount. the market price was pretty easy to peg and jones being a half decade+ younger than both of them off a better season made it a pretty simple 1+1 = 2 situation.
After Seattle and the Saints where was the demand?
See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
This isn't about Jones per se.
It's about who is calling the shots and how that impact the franchise moving forward.
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had tagged Daniel Jones, we would all be saying, "thank God they only tagged him last year!"
and if they tagged him, and he had a good year, (as many in the organization obviously expected) what would it cost to sign him moving forward? every decision has moving parts, c'mon.
Schoen and Daboll didn't believe in Jones enough to even leverage the 5th year option.
That year, although they were winning games, they were doing so with a below average passing attack (yeah he contributed with his legs, but history tells us that's not sustainable)
He ended the year beating up bad defenses in the Colts and Vikings. But even with that, was stomped back to reality with a curb stomping by a REAL NFC team.
So I would just love the explanation - of going from no 5th year option, to the contract he got.
It's one thing for a fan to get swayed by that season. It's disturbing that the Front Office/Coaching staff did.
See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
Well, here we go with the impasse because I can easily go the other way with all of those.
I don't think ATL would have been in the Jones sweepstakes because they still wanted to see what they had in Ridder, who was just coming off his rookie year. Same with Washington. From everything I have read/heard, Washington was very bullish on Howell.
If those coaches were on the hot seat, why would those HC/GMs want to risk a big investment on a player like Jones with limited success? You are coming off as if Jones was coming off an All-Pro effort.
If you want to twist yourself into Tennesse, fine. I don't see it based on the relationship between Vrabel and Tannehill.
The more interesting idea may have been Vegas. But they eventually settled on JimG, who was also available and more accomplished.
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But let it go. One thread after another shitting on Jones and the contract. It gets old and depressing.
This isn't about Jones per se.
It's about who is calling the shots and how that impact the franchise moving forward.
Even in camp, it all looked great and optimism was high. But then came the Dallas game. Everything that could go wrong did, and in an instant it blew up in their faces. We all played sports, we know how it is --emotions matter and this team was shell shocked after that game with Dallas. It got even worse after Barkley went down, and the line was in disarray --they literally couldn't pick up a stunt early in the year if their life depended on it. What's more, Jones regressed. Mentally, he reverted back to Check down king.
Eventually the Oline settled, Barkly came back, and Tyrod didn't have the fear throwing down field and we saw how much better that was.
At this point, Jones is an injury waiting to happen. Last year was maybe not the best circumstances to evaluate him, but at this point it doesn't matter. The injuries alone are reason enough to move on, and Jones has never shown to be able to run the sort of offense Daboll has in mind.
So while I was never a Jones fan and never would have given him the contract they did, I can see how the thinking could have led the team to that conclusion.
1) We don't have the information they do in terms of what the play calls for, what gets discussed in the film room. Assuming as I believe the team signed off on the deal, which I believe they did, we have to accept that Jones must have come off much better given the information we don't have than he appears to fans.
2) All the circumstances around the disaster of week 1 and ensuing injuries are part of the story. It's like looking at the Eagles at the end of the year. They were a mess and no one wants to give NYG any credit for beating them. But at the same time --NYG was a similar mess early on in the year. IMO, it is hard to take all of that at face value and say this tells the full story.
So IMO, it is what it is. They fucked up and are ready to move on. They may not be able to recover from this. It looks like a disaster to me, so I try to ask the tough questions. It's easy to say, they suck at what they do and point fingers, or you can take a step back and ask --why is it that a smart football mind who has far more information to go by than us fans would make such a decision. The answers are either --Mara forced them, or, something like what I've outlined. My belief is the later, but that's just my opinion.
DJ's camp didn't have to worry about any outside influence or drumming up a market that may or may not have been there.
Our offense was torpedoed at that point, and the QB getting injured a much higher probability.
The question of blame is then (IMO) substantially mitigated.
We must remember... our O-line wasn't just below average, it was God-awful. This is true even if we pin some part of the blame for all the sacks on Jones.
What they should have done, as a compromise to all parties, is overpay Barkley. Pay those few extra millions to complete that 3 year deal w/ the first two guaranteed, instead of overpaying Jones - Franchise Jones. That way you keep both players, at least for the coming year (nod to Mara) and you went with the smaller overpay while still limiting your risk. Punt the Jones decision until next year.
I feel that Schoen was too stubborn over those few extra millions for Saquon and that is what actually got us where we are.
Gmaniac1 : 1:27 pm : link : reply
... looms large over all "Daniel Jones and last year" related questions. IMO.
Our offense was torpedoed at that point, and the QB getting injured a much higher probability.
The question of blame is then (IMO) substantially mitigated.
We must remember... our O-line wasn't just below average, it was God-awful. This is true even if we pin some part of the blame for all the sacks on Jones.
Good point, but wasn't that logic kind of torpedoed when the backups came in?
The Oline was still a miss - but the QBs were finding plays downfield....
From what I can see after following and rooting for the Giants for over 50 years last Giants GM who had typical NFL GM autonomy was Ernie. Meaning the GM builds the team the way he wants to, communicates with ownership as he makes his choices and works with them for consensus on large financial commitments.
I don't believe Schoen and Daboll have that setup.
I think the Jones contract was a combination of Option #2 & #3. Schoen and Daboll don't have complete autonomy, and in this case it did not matter what they thought about Jones. After the Viking playoff win and the coronation of Jones by John Mara plus owning the 25th pick in round 1 Schoen and Daboll had no viable option to change QBs.
The linked article is behind a pay wall. I am pushing the limit posting this much of it. But I think it explains why Daniel Jones got the contract he did. It was written just before Schoen and Daboll were hired.
When Ernie left that era of Giants football ended and that firewall left with him. The John, Chris and now Tim era began in 2012.
An executive of a rival NFL team with no family members in the personnel department understood how the Giants’ structure could create problems.
“You’re inviting more dysfunction when someone has a direct line to ownership and you don’t. There’s maybe a little bit of distrust there,” the executive said. “If your voice is being heard simply because of who you are, but you’re not necessarily putting the work in, there’s all sorts of things that could derive from that.”
I don't see how anyone can read that article of more than a decade of dysfunction and think in the two years that Schoen and Daboll have worked for the Giants the three Mara’s have stepped aside allowed them to make all the football decisions.
‘This place is . . . messed up’: Under Maras’ hands-on ownership, Giants slide from model franchise to dysfunction - ( New Window )
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
You’re talking out of your ass. It’s uninteresting conjecture.
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Jets- wasn’t happening- they were all in on Rodgers.
Raiders- was still the pats guys running them and had a relationship with Jimmy G.
Saints- maybe they would have pursued Jones over Carr but to me that’s very doubtful.
Bucs- did they even have the cap space?
Those were really the only possible options if he hit free agency. Which team was he getting a similar contract from? I really don’t see it, the giants misread the market.
You’re talking out of your ass. It’s uninteresting conjecture.
Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
But keeping making excuses for Jones. The truth can’t be that he’s a bad overpaid QB right?
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Our Star LT getting injured in Week 1...
Gmaniac1 : 1:27 pm : link : reply
... looms large over all "Daniel Jones and last year" related questions. IMO.
Our offense was torpedoed at that point, and the QB getting injured a much higher probability.
The question of blame is then (IMO) substantially mitigated.
We must remember... our O-line wasn't just below average, it was God-awful. This is true even if we pin some part of the blame for all the sacks on Jones.
Good point, but wasn't that logic kind of torpedoed when the backups came in?
The Oline was still a miss - but the QBs were finding plays downfield....
Wasn't Andrew Thomas back in the line-up when DeVito was QB?
It appears the Giants have done a service to the other 31 teams by handing out a contract so over valued that other QBs and agents can't even use it to comp.
Compare the NFL career success of Daniel Jones and Baker Mayfield and compare the contracts they signed the past two years.
Jones is not the first time the 3 Mara's have become a contract cautionary tale. See Galloway, Kenny or Rudolph, Kyle for contracts that the rest of the NFL reacted with "they did what?"
Schoen got boxed into a corner as 11th hour approached and he potentially could lose both Barkley and Jones.
How could he handle it to keep both? What involvement did ownership have in pushing him TO retain both?
What I think is clear, the earlier contract offer (at mid-season to Barkley), the contract offer after the season ended,
I think signals they tried to get Barkley signed, THEN would use the FT on Jones.
I truly believe THAT was the plan. Barkley not signing totally screwed that up.
Since QB is the more important position, Schoen then had to push to get Jones signed.
The contract was a hot mess, but he at least left himself an escape hatch after 2 years.
Horrific? absolutely
Catastrophic? not really That would be Watson's contract in Cleveland.
If this WAS the original thought process, #2 on Eric's list seems most probable. Ownership (who loved Saquon "like a son"), probably pushed for his retention, which caused Schoen to have to pivot at the deadline to keep both.
If it was completely left to him, I believe he would have let SB walk, and tagged Jones.
Total organizational failure.
And the smart move would have been to tag Barkley since the commitment was less expensive and negotiate with Jones. If he signed somewhere else, oh well, there were qb's left in FA and as it turned out, the best one was one of the least expensive. And if, as I expect, the market reacted to Jones with a big "meh", you could have gotten him back on a less expensive deal.
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See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
Well, here we go with the impasse because I can easily go the other way with all of those.
I don't think ATL would have been in the Jones sweepstakes because they still wanted to see what they had in Ridder, who was just coming off his rookie year. Same with Washington. From everything I have read/heard, Washington was very bullish on Howell.
If those coaches were on the hot seat, why would those HC/GMs want to risk a big investment on a player like Jones with limited success? You are coming off as if Jones was coming off an All-Pro effort.
If you want to twist yourself into Tennesse, fine. I don't see it based on the relationship between Vrabel and Tannehill.
The more interesting idea may have been Vegas. But they eventually settled on JimG, who was also available and more accomplished.
sam howell had completed 11 passes his entire rookie year. you think rivera was eager to put his job in his hands? within 2 months atlanta saw what they had with ridder, and arthur smith as it turns out as well.
tampa is another team you can probably add to the list. they signed baker 1 week into FA for "up to" 8.5m, and having seen a very similar type of season as jones 2022 in 2023, the same gm just committed another up to 115m to him.
baker was 18th in QBR in 2023, carr had been 14th in 2022, geno was 7th in 2022, jones was 6th in 2022 and the youngest of the group. someone was going to pay him.
Mara, on the other hand, seems to love himself some DJ regardless of the results. I wouldn't go as far as to say he absolutely mandated that Jones was resigned. However, there is no doubt in my mind that he made it *abundantly* clear that his preference was that Jones be resigned.
bw in dc : mute : 12/28/2022 12:30 pm : link
he lets Jones hit the open market. And maybe has a gentlemen's agreement with Team Jones for last look to match or counter.
If that happens, I think Miami moves on from Tua and invests in Jones. Probably 3 yrs/$100M.
just did a quick search and couldn't find the actual jones threads from march, but once carr signed jones price tag became very obvious and someone was going to pay it. neither schoen nor CAA are complete morons. every big deal gets done knowing what else is out there when a player is that close to the open market.
I can assure you that you won't get there.
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In comment 16441574 Eric on Li said:
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See my post above - Atlanta and Washington would have very likely been in and I think a good argument could also be made for Tennessee. All easily had the cap flexibility and the first 2 had no QBs with coaches on obvious hot seats. Tenessee had Tannehill and Vrabel was on a less obvious hot seat, but Tannehill was 35 and easily cuttable coming off his worst year there and missing time. Willis was already clearly trending bust benched for Dobbs and they were clearly QB shopping since they ended up taking Levis.
Well, here we go with the impasse because I can easily go the other way with all of those.
I don't think ATL would have been in the Jones sweepstakes because they still wanted to see what they had in Ridder, who was just coming off his rookie year. Same with Washington. From everything I have read/heard, Washington was very bullish on Howell.
If those coaches were on the hot seat, why would those HC/GMs want to risk a big investment on a player like Jones with limited success? You are coming off as if Jones was coming off an All-Pro effort.
If you want to twist yourself into Tennesse, fine. I don't see it based on the relationship between Vrabel and Tannehill.
The more interesting idea may have been Vegas. But they eventually settled on JimG, who was also available and more accomplished.
sam howell had completed 11 passes his entire rookie year. you think rivera was eager to put his job in his hands? within 2 months atlanta saw what they had with ridder, and arthur smith as it turns out as well.
tampa is another team you can probably add to the list. they signed baker 1 week into FA for "up to" 8.5m, and having seen a very similar type of season as jones 2022 in 2023, the same gm just committed another up to 115m to him.
baker was 18th in QBR in 2023, carr had been 14th in 2022, geno was 7th in 2022, jones was 6th in 2022 and the youngest of the group. someone was going to pay him.
You can't be serious with this can you?
I understand why the Giants brought back Jones. That doesn't dismiss the fact they held all the leverage and gave him a bad contract they are now burned on.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
I'd speculate that Daboll was probably the least enthusiastic of the group having specifically limited the decisions Jones had to make in the offense. Combined with Schoen famously not valuing the RB position, the decision was made to focus on a shorter term contract for Jones that would allow them to franchise Barkley.
Unfortunately, those plans were clear to everyone in the entire world, and Jones's reps used it to their advantage in negotiating a contract he couldn't have gotten anywhere else but got from the Giants because they were faced with the tag deadline.
Schoen got boxed into a corner as 11th hour approached and he potentially could lose both Barkley and Jones.
How could he handle it to keep both? What involvement did ownership have in pushing him TO retain both?
What I think is clear, the earlier contract offer (at mid-season to Barkley), the contract offer after the season ended,
I think signals they tried to get Barkley signed, THEN would use the FT on Jones.
I truly believe THAT was the plan. Barkley not signing totally screwed that up.
Since QB is the more important position, Schoen then had to push to get Jones signed.
The contract was a hot mess, but he at least left himself an escape hatch after 2 years.
Horrific? absolutely
Catastrophic? not really That would be Watson's contract in Cleveland.
If this WAS the original thought process, #2 on Eric's list seems most probable. Ownership (who loved Saquon "like a son"), probably pushed for his retention, which caused Schoen to have to pivot at the deadline to keep both.
If it was completely left to him, I believe he would have let SB walk, and tagged Jones.
Neither answer is good. Either ownership is still meddling or the new GM/HC are making terrible decisions.
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
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but I think the wrong question is being asked here.
Schoen got boxed into a corner as 11th hour approached and he potentially could lose both Barkley and Jones.
How could he handle it to keep both? What involvement did ownership have in pushing him TO retain both?
What I think is clear, the earlier contract offer (at mid-season to Barkley), the contract offer after the season ended,
I think signals they tried to get Barkley signed, THEN would use the FT on Jones.
I truly believe THAT was the plan. Barkley not signing totally screwed that up.
Since QB is the more important position, Schoen then had to push to get Jones signed.
The contract was a hot mess, but he at least left himself an escape hatch after 2 years.
Horrific? absolutely
Catastrophic? not really That would be Watson's contract in Cleveland.
If this WAS the original thought process, #2 on Eric's list seems most probable. Ownership (who loved Saquon "like a son"), probably pushed for his retention, which caused Schoen to have to pivot at the deadline to keep both.
If it was completely left to him, I believe he would have let SB walk, and tagged Jones.
Neither answer is good. Either ownership is still meddling or the new GM/HC are making terrible decisions.
I mean, you just asked in another thread why SS was playing. Maybe the GM/HC ARE making bad decisions.
It's not that hard Eric. Daboll and Schoen had a terrible season last year and it doesn't fall at the feet of Daniel Jones. It falls at the feet of Brian Daboll.
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If Schoen is smart...
bw in dc : mute : 12/28/2022 12:30 pm : link
he lets Jones hit the open market. And maybe has a gentlemen's agreement with Team Jones for last look to match or counter.
If that happens, I think Miami moves on from Tua and invests in Jones. Probably 3 yrs/$100M.
just did a quick search and couldn't find the actual jones threads from march, but once carr signed jones price tag became very obvious and someone was going to pay it. neither schoen nor CAA are complete morons. every big deal gets done knowing what else is out there when a player is that close to the open market.
Okay, I was spitballing on Miami, but my hypothetical was $33 AAV versus $40. And only $100M v $160M, significantly below the what was actually paid.
For instance, why was Shepherd on the roster? and we let Crowder go and had no punt returner. I don't see how Daboll could possibly have been happy with that decision.
On the other hand why was Peart kept on the roster while letting our better backup go to Philly.
How about playing Ezudo at tackle when he never practiced there?
Keeping your injured field goal kicker on the roster?
Barkley should have been tagged or traded and Jones franchised. From day one that was the correct move.
I think Schoen, Daboll and Mara all made terrible decisions through out the course of the year. They are all to blame.
That is the grim reality and you have to really question this organization's ability to get things together.
I hope we aren't looking at the three stooges.
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you were consistent in wanting to let jones test the market but even before he won a playoff game you expected him to have a market and get 100m.
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If Schoen is smart...
bw in dc : mute : 12/28/2022 12:30 pm : link
he lets Jones hit the open market. And maybe has a gentlemen's agreement with Team Jones for last look to match or counter.
If that happens, I think Miami moves on from Tua and invests in Jones. Probably 3 yrs/$100M.
just did a quick search and couldn't find the actual jones threads from march, but once carr signed jones price tag became very obvious and someone was going to pay it. neither schoen nor CAA are complete morons. every big deal gets done knowing what else is out there when a player is that close to the open market.
Okay, I was spitballing on Miami, but my hypothetical was $33 AAV versus $40. And only $100M v $160M, significantly below the what was actually paid.
you have been a jones hater since before his draft year when you said ryan finley was better and yet before derek carr set the market, and even before he won a playoff game, you priced him beyond the tag amount.
you dont think it's possible on the open market any 1 of the 31 other GMs liked him more than you?
you are an avowed fan of QBR, how do you think it's reasonable that on the open market a younger Jones would have been paid less than older players whom he had better QBRs than (among plenty of other metrics including turnover%, W/L record, playoff performance, etc)?
again i am not knocking your prediction, it was 3 months ahead of the actual market being set. just pointing out that even before that famed minnesota game everyone, including a long standing non-jones believer yourself, was projecting that he had played well enough to have a 9 figure FA market beyond the tag amount.
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In comment 16441657 TyreeHelmet said:
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
This is fucking hysterical. Your whole argument is based on the fact that I - as a fan - can’t name the offers he would’ve gotten if the Giants didn’t sign him? That the Giants somehow didn’t do their due diligence in putting an offer together?
You’re a fan talking out of your ass.
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In comment 16441800 mittenedman said:
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In comment 16441657 TyreeHelmet said:
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
This is fucking hysterical. Your whole argument is based on the fact that I - as a fan - can’t name the offers he would’ve gotten if the Giants didn’t sign him? That the Giants somehow didn’t do their due diligence in putting an offer together?
You’re a fan talking out of your ass.
You still can't name 1 other team that might have even given him that contract. His contract was not 'fair market"- not sure how thats debatable.
The Giants overpaid their own player and screwed up. Why is that so hard to admit as a fan?
Everyone is really overreacting to a bad month of football and a freak injury.
Yes, I'll say it again, you guys are overreacting. Lots of fans including myself were on board with the contract that basically guaranteed him 2 years to keep improving while they built the team. Tough to see into the future and know that he would be pressured or hit on basically every other snap and then would eventually tear his knee on a freak play.
Wait and see what happens with the draft and then go from there. But I imagine that most of BBI will probably freak out and talk about how bad Jones sucks for the next month, and then do the same thing for the next 6 months after that if we don't draft a QB in the first round. Which by the way we probably won't do.
Everyone is really overreacting to a bad month of football and a freak injury.
Will your opinion be different if it comes to light that his 2023 neck injury was related to his 2021 neck injury?
you have been a jones hater since before his draft year when you said ryan finley was better and yet before derek carr set the market, and even before he won a playoff game, you priced him beyond the tag amount.
you dont think it's possible on the open market any 1 of the 31 other GMs liked him more than you?
you are an avowed fan of QBR, how do you think it's reasonable that on the open market a younger Jones would have been paid less than older players whom he had better QBRs than (among plenty of other metrics including turnover%, W/L record, playoff performance, etc)?
again i am not knocking your prediction, it was 3 months ahead of the actual market being set. just pointing out that even before that famed minnesota game everyone, including a long standing non-jones believer yourself, was projecting that he had played well enough to have a 9 figure FA market beyond the tag amount.
Sure, a GM may have liked Jones more than me, but that doesn't mean that GM would have forked over the same contract Schoen did. I see a much narrower market than you.
Just as much as you think the market would have been ga-ga over Jones because he is younger. I think the market could just as easily have concluded Jones was coming off one decent year, and that didn't entitle him to the next big contract because he was next in line.
For example, Jones certainly didn't have a better resume than Carr, who set the market days prior. Carr was much more productive and predictable in almost every key metric over a longer period of time. Again, Jones had one decent year.
But I want to make sure we're on the same page here before we move on. Your position is Jones would have received a contract by one or more teams of 4/$160M, $82M guaranteed if he was allowed to test the market. Correct?
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In comment 16441844 TyreeHelmet said:
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Name a team that would have even approached the contract the Giants gave out. It wasn’t out there.
Again - pulling sh#t out of your ass. Not interested, nor will I try to speculate.
What I do know are the facts: An NFL re-signed him to a fair market deal. And contrary to your BS, NFL teams understand how to gauge a players value when their putting a deal together.
"Fair market deal" yet you can't name one team that would of realistically matched that contract. His true market value did not match the deal he got.
It's fine to admit they made a mistake on this contract. I will never understand the ardent defenders of Jones and his contract. Makes zero sense.
This is fucking hysterical. Your whole argument is based on the fact that I - as a fan - can’t name the offers he would’ve gotten if the Giants didn’t sign him? That the Giants somehow didn’t do their due diligence in putting an offer together?
You’re a fan talking out of your ass.
You still can't name 1 other team that might have even given him that contract. His contract was not 'fair market"- not sure how thats debatable.
The Giants overpaid their own player and screwed up. Why is that so hard to admit as a fan?
The same reason it’s so hard to admit you’re talking out of your ass. And I’m calling out your bullshit. You have no idea what other teams were going to offer, and you have no proof Schoen didn’t do his due diligence constructing a fair market offer.
You’re just whining. The guy above put it best - quiet desperation.
The contract isn’t some unforgivable mistake - Jones got injured. That’s football. Regardless of what your position is we all end up in the same place. It’s time to move on. Put the pitchfork down, grow up & stop whining.
But I want to make sure we're on the same page here before we move on. Your position is Jones would have received a contract by one or more teams of 4/$160M, $82M guaranteed if he was allowed to test the market. Correct?
yes i expect that to be the case no different than i expect that had baker made it to FA this year he would have done as good or better as he did (same with geno last year). i think the market is what it is for all these guys and agents dont generally sign for less than they can get elsewhere, or else they dont sign.
I'd speculate that Daboll was probably the least enthusiastic of the group having specifically limited the decisions Jones had to make in the offense. Combined with Schoen famously not valuing the RB position, the decision was made to focus on a shorter term contract for Jones that would allow them to franchise Barkley.
Unfortunately, those plans were clear to everyone in the entire world, and Jones's reps used it to their advantage in negotiating a contract he couldn't have gotten anywhere else but got from the Giants because they were faced with the tag deadline.
+1
Eric on Li : 3/8/2023 7:09 pm : link
A+ for creativity, flexibility, no drama execution
solid B+/A for the deal itself
i think there was only a little bit of daylight for this contract to have been better but not been so overly favorable that it was worth signing over the tag. i think getting a 5th year would have been a positive, but id imagine the cost of getting was more expensive.
i think this is a really good deal for both sides, but perhaps a slightly better deal for jones than the nyg depending on the incentives because based on the PFT report im thinking the incentives are much more likely to pay out than the giants using the emergency chutes after year 2 or 3.
yes i expect that to be the case no different than i expect that had baker made it to FA this year he would have done as good or better as he did (same with geno last year). i think the market is what it is for all these guys and agents dont generally sign for less than they can get elsewhere, or else they dont sign.
In essence, your position is the "next in line" theory. And Jones did enough to be in that line.
My position is a GM would have been more prudent by wanting to see more. And structured a deal with less years, less AAV, and less guaranteed money.
BTW, I think the Bucs made a mistake with Baker, too, although they got a much better bargain for Baker than we got for Jones. Why do you think Team Baker signed for that team friendly deal?