I don't think the turnover two seasons on is out of the statistical norm, but it's interesting to me how many employable, NFL-level players, management seemingly didn't view as part of the future.
I think that playoff win will be the least memorable, in recent, if not all franchise history.
Daniel Jones*
Saquon Barkley
Isaiah Hodgins*
Darius Slayton*
Richie James
Daniel Bellinger*
Nick Gates
Andrew Thomas*
Evan Neal*
Mark Glowinski
Jon Feliciano
Leonard Williams
Dexter Lawrence*
Azeez Ojulari*
Kayvon Thibodeaux*
Jaylon Smith
Jarrad Davis
Adoree' Jackson
Darnay Holmes*
Julian Love
Xavier McKinney
I have zero interest in re-watching the 2022 playoff game. It did more harm than good.
The one I watch the most is the Tynes Packer game
And that serious changes/upgrades at key roster positions needed to be made to consistently compete at that level in the future.
I think hats the worst contract ever in sports. If not, what contract is worse? I'd like to hear from anyone. Anyone?
I also think the term "rebuild" is a fallacy in the NFL. You are always building, it never stops. I think the Chiefs get that better than most teams.
If Schoen/Daboll can learn from 2023 and recover, it will have been a good learning experience. 2024 needs to look more line 2022 than 2023.
They won some close games early on and had some surprises against good QBs/teams but really fell apart at the end.
They won two games at in the last 8 games or whatever it was. We had to be grateful because they played over their heads and they sucked for so long. They just suck.
Hate to say it but that 40-0 game to Dallas just made me give up on the entire year. It was a quick way to telegraph 2023 would be a waste of time. Went to the Arizona game and then the Miami game but I don't think I sat down and watched more than 2 Giants games in their entirety. The Rangers caught my attention and some weird girlfriend for a month or two.
There are a handful of posters who really do believe it was Daniel Jones alone carrying the other 52 guys to the win. In their minds, it was an elite level performance and a flash of greatness.
It’s because they never look back at how historically terrible that Viking defense was and the video game numbers other QBs like Mac Jones put up against that same team.
The win was fun, but it a tallest midget game.
Complaints should be about the scouts and GM who failed to improve the team
Reading comprehension is becoming a lost art.
Nobody is complaining about the playoff win. They are complaining about how that win lead to a string of terrible decisions that hurt the team long term.
To make things clear - everyone enjoyed the win. Many Giants fans - in hindsight - think it caused more harm than good.
Complaints should be about the scouts and GM who failed to improve the team
No one complains about winning that game. It’s the poor decisions that the team made based on it. And oh by the way, they got crushed by the team that’s tormented them for over a decade the next week. That game was over in the first quarter.
In comment 16443493 SoZKillA said:
Complaints should be about the scouts and GM who failed to improve the team
No one complains about winning that game. It’s the poor decisions that the team made based on it. And oh by the way, they got crushed by the team that’s tormented them for over a decade the next week. That game was over in the first quarter.
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Would you rather have not gone to the playoffs? Would you rather have lost to the Vikings?
I mean, the last playoff game before that we had OBJ and the celebrating Wrs in a terrible loss about the same as the Eagles loss.
Don’t forget getting crushed in the Superbowl in 2000 or the epic collapse against San Fran when we couldn’t snap the ball.
A playoff win is a playoff win. In 2007 we won the superbowl with a 10-6 record in the regular season and in 2011 we won with a 9-7 record. In 2022 we went 9-6-1 and even sat the starters in the finale. We may have gotten to 10 wins. Getting to the playoffs is a big deal and winning is a big deal. We beat a 13 win team. Do you know how many times in the Super Bowl the giants have won 13 or more regular season games? 1 time in 1986. 13 wins is a lot in the regular season.
"The Fumble" led to George Young. It was a good thing.
The 2022 playoff game led to 4-years, $160 million and a 2-year setback in the rebuild. It may also cause the current regime to fail. It was a bad thing.
Short-term gratification isn't always good.
If one game changes the vision for your team then Schoen isn’t the right guy for the job. If he gave Jones that contract based off the playoff win then he might be the worst GM in the game. Any GM/CEO has to be big picture long term. So what would have been different if we had the same record and didn’t make the playoffs? Or if we played Minnesota in the playoffs with the exact same stats except the score and we lost by a TD? DJ would have still had a great game.
In any event, we are not in the situation we are in because of that game. The Jones contract didn’t affect the cap that much last year. It didn’t affect Neal being a bust, JMS underperforming, the bad signing of Glowinski & Campbell poor drafting and injuries to key players. Darren Waller? Not trading Barkley when he had value? That’s why we are a 6 win team. So I guess the only move you are referring to with the playoff win is signing DJ? If he only got $30 mil a year would that change much? The Franchise tag would have put the team in cap trouble last year too and Barkley would have been gone.
I’d say the win against Philly last season impacted the Giants much more than the playoff win. But I enjoyed both.
This is categorically untrue and a myth that's been dispelled over and over on BBI.
The Giants would have been in markedly better cap shape if they had signed Barkley at the parameters reported he desired, and Jones was franchised.
The top part of the table reflects how the Giants entered 2023. The below shows the net impact over 2023-2025 if they had franchised Jones, signed Barkley, and made the requisite adjustments to Williams and Jackson to make room.
They could have been +9.4M in cap space in 2023, but more importantly + 22.3M over the three year period.
I truly suspect the irony of your post is lost on you.
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More repetitive bitching and moaning.
I truly suspect the irony of your post is lost on you.
Don’t you have your own thread of DJ bitching to visit? Or perhaps it’s time to start a new thread of completely unoriginal horseshit?
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Would you rather have not gone to the playoffs? Would you rather have lost to the Vikings?
I mean, the last playoff game before that we had OBJ and the celebrating Wrs in a terrible loss about the same as the Eagles loss.
Don’t forget getting crushed in the Superbowl in 2000 or the epic collapse against San Fran when we couldn’t snap the ball.
A playoff win is a playoff win. In 2007 we won the superbowl with a 10-6 record in the regular season and in 2011 we won with a 9-7 record. In 2022 we went 9-6-1 and even sat the starters in the finale. We may have gotten to 10 wins. Getting to the playoffs is a big deal and winning is a big deal. We beat a 13 win team. Do you know how many times in the Super Bowl the giants have won 13 or more regular season games? 1 time in 1986. 13 wins is a lot in the regular season.
"The Fumble" led to George Young. It was a good thing.
The 2022 playoff game led to 4-years, $160 million and a 2-year setback in the rebuild. It may also cause the current regime to fail. It was a bad thing.
Short-term gratification isn't always good.
Giant fans don't complain about the run to the 1963 championship loss to the Bears with an aging YA Tittle, notwithstanding the bad decisions and 15 years of futility that followed.
Weird to celebrate The Fumble (I was there and it was brutal to watch and then think about for the next 6 months) and mourn a playoff win. God forbid the Giants had kept the Eagles game close, maybe with a kick return, a turnover, whatever.
Consider the 1973 Mets, the 83-win team that went to the World Series and took the Oakland As to Game 7. Ownership and management thought it was a good team. Instead they won only 71 games the next year, and only got past 83 once before 1984 when Hernandez, Strawberry and Gooden showed up. I never hear Met fans complain about that 1973 run, though.
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The Franchise tag would have put the team in cap trouble last year too and Barkley would have been gone.
This is categorically untrue and a myth that's been dispelled over and over on BBI.
The Giants would have been in markedly better cap shape if they had signed Barkley at the parameters reported he desired, and Jones was franchised.
The top part of the table reflects how the Giants entered 2023. The below shows the net impact over 2023-2025 if they had franchised Jones, signed Barkley, and made the requisite adjustments to Williams and Jackson to make room.
They could have been +9.4M in cap space in 2023, but more importantly + 22.3M over the three year period.
Would they have been able to make the deal w Okereke and the trade and deal with Waller?
Also, I have heard you claim from IE. R u still in SoCal?
This is actually is my thread for bitching. But it looks like it's yours too!
Learning from the past is not easy.
Also, I have heard you claim from IE. R u still in SoCal?
Yes, they could have had the exact same offseason last year. The only changes would have been:
1) Franchise Jones
2) Sign Barkley
3) Restructure Jackson and Williams
But I will say this. Without the hindsight knowledge of what Jones received, I think there would have been substantial bitching about creating dead money, signing Barkley, and franchising Jones.
It's only in retrospect do we know Jones gets 82M guaranteed, and that's the number the alternative is benchmarked against.
Imagine if everything goes the same way -- Barkley misses time and has an OK season, Jones sucks and gets hurt, Williams is traded, and Jackson leaves as a free agent. I think plenty of fans would be killing Schoen.
And no, haven't lived in SoCal for ~25 years, but my family does and I get back often.
"The Fumble" led to George Young. It was a good thing.
The 2022 playoff game led to 4-years, $160 million and a 2-year setback in the rebuild. It may also cause the current regime to fail. It was a bad thing.
Short-term gratification isn't always good. [/quote]
I see it differently. The playoff win lead only to a he FO and coaching staff to dig into the season and make sure they felt that Jones was a major reason for the team success and how likely would it be for Jones to repeat it while also asking themselves if it was reasonable that Jones would get exponentially better.
If the Giants honestly did the work and came to the conclusion that Jones was worth sticking with then they simply missed, it happens. The worst thing would be a FO and coaching staff blindly looking at a playoff win as “the proof” that Jones was worth an investment.
I do not regret the 2022 season, I would regret if my team didn’t do their homework on why the 2022 season was successful.
"The Fumble" led to George Young. It was a good thing.
The 2022 playoff game led to 4-years, $160 million and a 2-year setback in the rebuild. It may also cause the current regime to fail. It was a bad thing.
Short-term gratification isn't always good.
I see it differently. The playoff win lead only to a he FO and coaching staff to dig into the season and make sure they felt that Jones was a major reason for the team success and how likely would it be for Jones to repeat it while also asking themselves if it was reasonable that Jones would get exponentially better.
If the Giants honestly did the work and came to the conclusion that Jones was worth sticking with then they simply missed, it happens. The worst thing would be a FO and coaching staff blindly looking at a playoff win as “the proof” that Jones was worth an investment.
I do not regret the 2022 season, I would regret if my team didn’t do their homework on why the 2022 season was successful. [/quote]
+1
as far as the number of starters turned over it's in line with 'normal'. the rate of change has accelerated in the new CBA and even back before this cba was fully adapted to this was usually the case. 2 years after SB42 half the starting lineup was gone (kawika mitchell, strahan, plax, toomer, gibril wilson, pierce, madison, james butler, madison, torbor, rw mcquarters).
2 years after sb 46 was even worse - bradshaw, snee, manningham, ballard, mckenzie, baas, canty, boley, webster, phillips, grant, blackburn, ross, thomas all gone. joseph, tuck, kiwanuka also soon to depart.
I've also noted ages when the season started and average age of the players who eventually left.
Adjacent observation, it really sucks how many of those core players in 2011 had career altering injuries in the next 2-3 years.
I've also noted ages when the season started and average age of the players who eventually left.
Adjacent observation, it really sucks how many of those core players in 2011 had career altering injuries in the next 2-3 years.
remember different CBAs and those teams were fully drafted/signed by the same coach/gm. a lot of the 2022 guys who are now gone were inherited from previous regime. and yet still comparable turnover.
50% of every nfl roster turns over every year, a lot of that is back of roster but 2 years out id bet starters turning over by 50% is typical.
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Would you rather have not gone to the playoffs? Would you rather have lost to the Vikings?
I mean, the last playoff game before that we had OBJ and the celebrating Wrs in a terrible loss about the same as the Eagles loss.
Don’t forget getting crushed in the Superbowl in 2000 or the epic collapse against San Fran when we couldn’t snap the ball.
A playoff win is a playoff win. In 2007 we won the superbowl with a 10-6 record in the regular season and in 2011 we won with a 9-7 record. In 2022 we went 9-6-1 and even sat the starters in the finale. We may have gotten to 10 wins. Getting to the playoffs is a big deal and winning is a big deal. We beat a 13 win team. Do you know how many times in the Super Bowl the giants have won 13 or more regular season games? 1 time in 1986. 13 wins is a lot in the regular season.
"The Fumble" led to George Young. It was a good thing.
The 2022 playoff game led to 4-years, $160 million and a 2-year setback in the rebuild. It may also cause the current regime to fail. It was a bad thing.
Short-term gratification isn't always good.
Are you delusional? That ONE GAME led to the contract? By that measure, Cutlets ought to be getting 80m a year. Come Eric, stop with the hyperbole.
Post this most recent playoff win, the Giants have jettisoned more, and younger players.
The two most important players on the field against Minnesota were Jones and Barkley. Barkley is gone by choice, and if Jones is gone by circumstance -- the 2024 team will be substantively different. Perception-wise that would probably the biggest change.
I don't think many fans would guess on the day of that Minnesota win, Barkley and Jones might be gone opening day 2024.
Winning and enjoying the playoff game didn't have to result in bad decisions.
If the answer is that Schoen & Co. did indeed factor in that blowout loss, then lord help this franchise.
Winning and enjoying the playoff game didn't have to result in bad decisions.
I agree they didn't have to. As skeptical as I was/am of Jones, I do believe he earned the chance to show he could build on the 2022 season.
I want them to, and wish they had drawn the line similarly to what Tampa did with Mayfield. A prove it deal with some approximation of the franchise tender guaranteed, with some team options.
I understand the preceding circumstances were different. But both players had one single strong season in the current system. And if the market was to bear more and he went elsewhere, good for him.
Maybe, but 3/100 million isn’t outrageous these days, and they will be able to take swings on developmental QBs like Pratt/Nix. Seems similar to Geno Smith deal. I don’t think either TB or SEA deluded themselves that their guy was more than a bridge QB.
In what way are the 1963 and 2022 Giants at all similar? One team was aging and at the end of glorious run. Another overachieved against a weak schedule, causing it to make a horrific, franchise-altering contract decision.
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They paid a guy, and still need a quarterback.
Maybe, but 3/100 million isn’t outrageous these days, and they will be able to take swings on developmental QBs like Pratt/Nix. Seems similar to Geno Smith deal. I don’t think either TB or SEA deluded themselves that their guy was more than a bridge QB.
True, but is he all that much better than Darnold, Winston, or some of the other guys that signed cheap one year deals? If he is, he probably isn't by much. I'd take Darnold plus a couple of the high end FAs on the OL/DL than Mayfield.
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People want to shit on a playoff win. How many teams actually not only make the playoffs, but win a game?
🙄🙄🙄🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Eric, I’m surprised you referenced the 2000 vs MIN, considering the shitshow that happened two weeks later.
Kind of like the shitshow that happened in 2022 vs PHI after the MIN win
🤷♂️🙄
Years ago I bought a DVD set that was the 10 greatest Giants games of all time. 3 SBS (it was a while ago), conf. championships, etc. Worst game on the set was the shellacking of Minn. in 2000. I happened to look at the Vikings version of the set. It included a game against the Giants at season end where we sat our starters because we were already in the playoffs. That was one of their top 10. We are spoiled.
Truth
Let me guess?
"The Bills never win and it took the Lions 30 years to win a playoff game!"
🙄🙄🙄🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Eric, I’m surprised you referenced the 2000 vs MIN, considering the shitshow that happened two weeks later.
Kind of like the shitshow that happened in 2022 vs PHI after the MIN win
🤷♂️🙄
What?
My point is clear about why the 2022 playoff "win" was terrible for the organization.
The two 2000 playoff wins did not have any negative impact on the franchise.
You understand this point, right?
Respectfully, the "tell" was the Vikings allowing 25 ppg, being 31st against the pass, 20th against the run, and allowing more points than the Vikings scored for the season.
Post this most recent playoff win, the Giants have jettisoned more, and younger players.
The two most important players on the field against Minnesota were Jones and Barkley. Barkley is gone by choice, and if Jones is gone by circumstance -- the 2024 team will be substantively different. Perception-wise that would probably the biggest change.
I don't think many fans would guess on the day of that Minnesota win, Barkley and Jones might be gone opening day 2024.
that's fair - i agree especially on Barkley because i think it's easier to see it as non-performance related. i think we've talked about this since the extension that was as close as it was didn't happen, they seemingly didnt want him back all that badly.
the only thing id add is that even putting jones aside, so far their evaluations havent worked out great. at his age/the price they should have brought back love. they'd have another cost effective 100% snap player on D and he played all core special teams.
after drawing a line at 6m aav on a 24 year old captain like love i continue to be surprised they are willing to pay waller a fresh 10.5m this year retirement or not. maybe holding out hope someone is willing to trade a day 3 for him at the draft if they miss on day 2 TEs?
Post this most recent playoff win, the Giants have jettisoned more, and younger players.
The two most important players on the field against Minnesota were Jones and Barkley. Barkley is gone by choice, and if Jones is gone by circumstance -- the 2024 team will be substantively different. Perception-wise that would probably the biggest change.
I don't think many fans would guess on the day of that Minnesota win, Barkley and Jones might be gone opening day 2024.
that's fair - i agree especially on Barkley because i think it's easier to see it as non-performance related. i think we've talked about this since the extension that was as close as it was didn't happen, they seemingly didnt want him back all that badly.
the only thing id add is that even putting jones aside, so far their evaluations havent worked out great. at his age/the price they should have brought back love. they'd have another cost effective 100% snap player on D and he played all core special teams.
after drawing a line at 6m aav on a 24 year old captain like love i continue to be surprised they are willing to pay waller a fresh 10.5m this year retirement or not. maybe holding out hope someone is willing to trade a day 3 for him at the draft if they miss on day 2 TEs?
I agree.
Small detour, but if a football observer took a look at that Giants team against Minnesota and didn't know the backstory, they'd come away thinking the MO of the team architect was:
- Run the ball out of play action/RPO/read option
- Work mismatches in the pass game and look for YAC
- Utilize versatile safeties who can play the slot, box, and deep areas
- Generate pass rush from the IDLs
Fast forward to today, and I honestly don't WTF the team's identity is.
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The Franchise tag would have put the team in cap trouble last year too and Barkley would have been gone.
This is categorically untrue and a myth that's been dispelled over and over on BBI.
The Giants would have been in markedly better cap shape if they had signed Barkley at the parameters reported he desired, and Jones was franchised.
The top part of the table reflects how the Giants entered 2023. The below shows the net impact over 2023-2025 if they had franchised Jones, signed Barkley, and made the requisite adjustments to Williams and Jackson to make room.
They could have been +9.4M in cap space in 2023, but more importantly + 22.3M over the three year period.
You leave out the replacement cost of Jones after 2023. We won 6 games last year so we would have had the same pick. Youre also leaving out that Barkley would have been a FA. Tag Jones and Barkley walks.
It doesnt matter, the GM made the decision at the time. You can go back further and say he should have done the 5th year option. The GM gave him that contract, in hindsight it was a mistake. It was an even bigger mistake if he made that decision based off of the playoff win. He had Jones for a full year to evaluate, my point is he was getting a similar contract whether we won or lost that game.