one guy has played 3 seasons, the other has played 5. One has improved each year and is still on a rookie contract while the other makes $40m
I expected more from Lawrence with all the hype he got coming out of Clemson. This will be a big year for him. If he comes out flat the Jags will have to use the 5th year option and Lawrence may hold out.
This is only relevant if you think Lawrence's rookie year is relevant for analyzing him. I'd argue both players are entirely different than their respective rookie years.
I also agree Lawrence has been a disappointment. He's in that secondary tier--with guys like Goff and Cousins--when he was supposed to be Peyton Manning.
Jones sucks, and Lawrence isn't any good either. Jacksonville should be trying to trade him while his name and reputation as a #1 pick still carry weight.
But they won't. They'll make the same mistake the Giants made and delude themselves with excuses and rationalizations. And before they know it it will be 2027.
I just read that the Giants are sticking with the 6th pick, and are going to draft a long snapper out of Eastern Wyoming Culinary Technical Institute. Anyone who says that they are moving up in the draft, for that long snapper, is lying.
one guy has played 3 seasons, the other has played 5. One has improved each year and is still on a rookie contract while the other makes $40m
Lawrence did not have a good year in 2023 either.
Why does one get the benefit of the doubt because of a bad situation, and the other one doesn't? Do you agree Jones walked into a bad situation and it concluded until 2022?
There's still a club who acts like Justin Fields was good and just held back in Chicago.
Its niether.. Its useless stat.. you don't look at a player goig into year 4 with his culumative stats for the past 3 years.. you look at the trend.. compared to his rookie year the other 2 are way better.. meaning even his sort of bad 2023 is better much better than his rookie year.. and in that year is best pass catching weapon was Even Engram.. yes that Evan Engram whom we didn't bother signing for 9M cause with DJ he looked far worse.. DJ on the other hand after his 50th game was pointing down.. his rookie year was the one where the stellar stats came from.. Lawrence is a damn good QB.. arrow is pointing up..
The main difference is one will be coming off an ACL and a neck
1- QBs are highly dependent on the offense around them and 2- More QBs with legit ability get screwed up by the teams who draft them than people realize.
I would love to have Lawrence here. Maybe he's not the generational player some have projected, but the upside is still massive.
You hear a lot of people saying NE would be crazy to pass on a QB
is partially suffering a bit from outcome of overhype. He actually regressed a bit statistically and from eye test after first year or two in college, so coming into NFL he needed some refinement and the Meyer season was a debacle around him.
That said, he's a bit sloppy as a passer. Its not unreasonable to say he's disappointed at times. Upside is still really there, but he too needs to stay healthy.
This is not an argument for the build first, take a QB later
approach. I'm not saying that. But you have to be careful about putting young kids with high expectations into helpless situations. That's how you f-it up for the guy.
RE: You hear a lot of people saying NE would be crazy to pass on a QB
very high on him coming out in the draft. Still a young player. Most QB's will never live up to expectations. You hope with a good enough team and coaching around them they can get to the good/great regular season level.
Then a lot of those good/great regular season QB's will come up small in the playoffs. Too much pressure on QB's in general imv in a game that is all about team.
RE: You hear a lot of people saying NE would be crazy to pass on a QB
Jones sucks, and Lawrence isn't any good either. Jacksonville should be trying to trade him while his name and reputation as a #1 pick still carry weight.
But they won't. They'll make the same mistake the Giants made and delude themselves with excuses and rationalizations. And before they know it it will be 2027.
I would love to see you say that shit in their face or front of their family members. You say this about these players. Your insight is no different than any other beer drinking fan but you pretend like you know. Laughing.
RE: RE: You hear a lot of people saying NE would be crazy to pass on a QB
But take out the rookie season for Lawrence and suddenly Lawrence is 17-16 with 46 TDs and 22 ints in the last 2 years
Jones is still 14-18-1 with 29 TDs and 18 ints in his last 33 games
So the stat is very misleading because Lawrence had a very bad rookie year and has since improved. Jones best statistical season was his rookie year
His best statistical season was 2022. Just because he had more passing yards per game and passing TDs doesn’t mean his stats were better unless you are going to ignore the cut down on INTs and fumbles, and not count his rushing yards, rushing 1st downs, better QBR, better passer rating, higher YPA, etc.
Jones sucks, and Lawrence isn't any good either. Jacksonville should be trying to trade him while his name and reputation as a #1 pick still carry weight.
But they won't. They'll make the same mistake the Giants made and delude themselves with excuses and rationalizations. And before they know it it will be 2027.
I would love to see you say that shit in their face or front of their family members. You say this about these players. Your insight is no different than any other beer drinking fan but you pretend like you know. Laughing.
most GMs would trade this year's and next year's 1st round
someone can know so much about so many QBs but I applaud the convictions.
How someone can say they knew all along about Eli, even as the 2007 season saw Eli's play ricochet from up and down to good and back again ( many still liked him but were nervous and rightfully so) het can sit here today and label Trever Lawrence as trash. The same TL that won more than Eli did through 3 seasons despite lesser talent on the team and the same TL that came into the NFL as one of the most talented prospects ever. So we have a stupidly talented QB who admittedly had a shaky 3rd season after a terrific 2nd season...but he's not worth a wet fart.
You should get into the NFL since you know more than anyone and are willing to take risks no mere mortal ever takes. Go ahead and cut Lawrence. Then draft the next question mark and see how it works out.
QBs depend on their team more than some of you think. As the team goes, so goes the QB. And yes, as the QB goes so goes the team too. But the team's overall play and structure dictates a lot of results with the QB. It's why so many are so fooled so often. You try so hard to simplify things by just putting all the eggs in the QB basket. Try harder. Think critically. Don't just try and make loud, concrete and wild points.
RE: RE: RE: You hear a lot of people saying NE would be crazy to pass on a QB
Well this is why. If NE drafts a QB at 3 and starts him right away, I'll bet any amount of money he won't succeed. That team is just terrible.
Isn't that what everyone said about Houston last year?
I have no idea what anyone said about Houston. I'm talking about New England.
The thing is you really don't know.. but we won't find out till this time a few years from now. The statement you are making now is the same many (may be including you) would've made last year about Houston.. but a good QB can make all the difference in the world cause we see that happen quite often.. Houston last year is a great case and point..
QBs depend on their team more than some of you think. As the team goes, so goes the QB. And yes, as the QB goes so goes the team too. But the team's overall play and structure dictates a lot of results with the QB. It's why so many are so fooled so often. You try so hard to simplify things by just putting all the eggs in the QB basket. Try harder. Think critically. Don't just try and make loud, concrete and wild points.
I shouldn't say think critically because moving on from a QB like TL is most definitely a deep cut into the norm. I just find it hard to believe someone can feel so strongly about a QB like Lawrence and act like it's such an easy decision. It's anything but. TL is a good QB who maybe was a bit overrated coming out of college but the guy can most definitely play at a high level and it's only 3 years in now. QBs aren't finished products so soon and it's not like the QB has played poorly. HE's been a winning player and has a playoff win under his belt. Moving on in such cavalier fashion....yea ok.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You hear a lot of people saying NE would be crazy to pass on a QB
Well this is why. If NE drafts a QB at 3 and starts him right away, I'll bet any amount of money he won't succeed. That team is just terrible.
Isn't that what everyone said about Houston last year?
I have no idea what anyone said about Houston. I'm talking about New England.
The thing is you really don't know.. but we won't find out till this time a few years from now. The statement you are making now is the same many (may be including you) would've made last year about Houston.. but a good QB can make all the difference in the world cause we see that happen quite often.. Houston last year is a great case and point..
Of course a good QB can make a big difference. But I don't agree with this idea that all QBs are GOOD QBs or NOT GOOD QBs. Many have potential to be good whether they ultimately turn out that way depends on external factors. Very few QBs come into the league pro ready. None of them have faced the speed of the game they'll see in the NFL. Many played in offenses that are different than they'll play in --under center etc. The defenses are more complex too.
You put a QB who still needs to develop in a bad situation and that can lead to develop bad habits and it can damage the confidence. So while, yes, a good QB can make the difference, we see many many examples of QBs with success and traits at the college level who fail. Some of them were going to fail regardless, but I'd argue that more of them than we realize fail because of poor fit, mishandling, and lack of environment conducive to development. It's one of the reasons even good scouts with unGodly resources at their disposal have such a poor hit rate on these guys. And if you consider that the top prospects usually go to the worst teams, it's easy to see why there's such a high failure rate. The % of QBs who are locks to be great no matter the circumstances is not very high.
using this select set of data point and not really looking at the trends/situations and actual performance can make you believe that DJ is as good as Lawrence has been through the first 3 seasons.. but thats far from truth.. Trevor has been much better that DJ.. Jacksonville and Lawrence in a down year for him are still 9-8.. they've improved from 1-15 (season prior to Lawrence) to 3-14, to 9-8 and 9-8 under Trevor.. Giants were 5-11 prior to Jones and have been the same since.. with the exception of one year where we were a 9 win team and this is regardless of whether we play Jones or not..
you can take an undrafted rookie QB and look pretty much the same as Jones..
not exercise TL's 5th year option. I would need to see a real break-out season in 2024 before I would consider a long-term investment.
And it's not the worst idea to consider trading him. TL still has two years left on his deal at very team friendly cap hits, and there is some very good pedigree there. So, I could see a good market for his services.
I've seen this comp before between Jones and Lawrence. While they look similar on paper, they don't look similar to me on the field. Lawrence looks like a legit NFL QB.
we should keep firing head coaches until they catch up with the immensely talented Daniel Jones.
Where is that coming from? This seems to be saying Lawrence has been as bad as Jones. While that can be debated, I think the point about Jones is that Jones ain't good.
Can’t wait for the next flavor of the week.
I expected more from Lawrence with all the hype he got coming out of Clemson. This will be a big year for him. If he comes out flat the Jags will have to use the 5th year option and Lawrence may hold out.
I also agree Lawrence has been a disappointment. He's in that secondary tier--with guys like Goff and Cousins--when he was supposed to be Peyton Manning.
But they won't. They'll make the same mistake the Giants made and delude themselves with excuses and rationalizations. And before they know it it will be 2027.
Lawrence did not have a good year in 2023 either.
Why does one get the benefit of the doubt because of a bad situation, and the other one doesn't? Do you agree Jones walked into a bad situation and it concluded until 2022?
There's still a club who acts like Justin Fields was good and just held back in Chicago.
But take out the rookie season for Lawrence and suddenly Lawrence is 17-16 with 46 TDs and 22 ints in the last 2 years
Jones is still 14-18-1 with 29 TDs and 18 ints in his last 33 games
So the stat is very misleading because Lawrence had a very bad rookie year and has since improved. Jones best statistical season was his rookie year
Its niether.. Its useless stat.. you don't look at a player goig into year 4 with his culumative stats for the past 3 years.. you look at the trend.. compared to his rookie year the other 2 are way better.. meaning even his sort of bad 2023 is better much better than his rookie year.. and in that year is best pass catching weapon was Even Engram.. yes that Evan Engram whom we didn't bother signing for 9M cause with DJ he looked far worse.. DJ on the other hand after his 50th game was pointing down.. his rookie year was the one where the stellar stats came from.. Lawrence is a damn good QB.. arrow is pointing up..
One is younger and not coming off neck and acl injury
I would love to have Lawrence here. Maybe he's not the generational player some have projected, but the upside is still massive.
That said, he's a bit sloppy as a passer. Its not unreasonable to say he's disappointed at times. Upside is still really there, but he too needs to stay healthy.
I think they might have the worst trench talent in NFL even bringing back Onwenu.
Above average play shouldn't be threshold for a 250M+ deal.
They have 2 more years, they should use them.
Then a lot of those good/great regular season QB's will come up small in the playoffs. Too much pressure on QB's in general imv in a game that is all about team.
Isn't that what everyone said about Houston last year?
But they won't. They'll make the same mistake the Giants made and delude themselves with excuses and rationalizations. And before they know it it will be 2027.
Quote:
Well this is why. If NE drafts a QB at 3 and starts him right away, I'll bet any amount of money he won't succeed. That team is just terrible.
Isn't that what everyone said about Houston last year?
I really like Lawrence by the way, I think he will be good.
But take out the rookie season for Lawrence and suddenly Lawrence is 17-16 with 46 TDs and 22 ints in the last 2 years
Jones is still 14-18-1 with 29 TDs and 18 ints in his last 33 games
So the stat is very misleading because Lawrence had a very bad rookie year and has since improved. Jones best statistical season was his rookie year
His best statistical season was 2022. Just because he had more passing yards per game and passing TDs doesn’t mean his stats were better unless you are going to ignore the cut down on INTs and fumbles, and not count his rushing yards, rushing 1st downs, better QBR, better passer rating, higher YPA, etc.
Funny.
Quote:
Jones sucks, and Lawrence isn't any good either. Jacksonville should be trying to trade him while his name and reputation as a #1 pick still carry weight.
But they won't. They'll make the same mistake the Giants made and delude themselves with excuses and rationalizations. And before they know it it will be 2027.
I would love to see you say that shit in their face or front of their family members. You say this about these players. Your insight is no different than any other beer drinking fan but you pretend like you know. Laughing.
How someone can say they knew all along about Eli, even as the 2007 season saw Eli's play ricochet from up and down to good and back again ( many still liked him but were nervous and rightfully so) het can sit here today and label Trever Lawrence as trash. The same TL that won more than Eli did through 3 seasons despite lesser talent on the team and the same TL that came into the NFL as one of the most talented prospects ever. So we have a stupidly talented QB who admittedly had a shaky 3rd season after a terrific 2nd season...but he's not worth a wet fart.
You should get into the NFL since you know more than anyone and are willing to take risks no mere mortal ever takes. Go ahead and cut Lawrence. Then draft the next question mark and see how it works out.
QBs depend on their team more than some of you think. As the team goes, so goes the QB. And yes, as the QB goes so goes the team too. But the team's overall play and structure dictates a lot of results with the QB. It's why so many are so fooled so often. You try so hard to simplify things by just putting all the eggs in the QB basket. Try harder. Think critically. Don't just try and make loud, concrete and wild points.
Quote:
In comment 16446303 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Well this is why. If NE drafts a QB at 3 and starts him right away, I'll bet any amount of money he won't succeed. That team is just terrible.
Isn't that what everyone said about Houston last year?
I have no idea what anyone said about Houston. I'm talking about New England.
The thing is you really don't know.. but we won't find out till this time a few years from now. The statement you are making now is the same many (may be including you) would've made last year about Houston.. but a good QB can make all the difference in the world cause we see that happen quite often.. Houston last year is a great case and point..
QBs depend on their team more than some of you think. As the team goes, so goes the QB. And yes, as the QB goes so goes the team too. But the team's overall play and structure dictates a lot of results with the QB. It's why so many are so fooled so often. You try so hard to simplify things by just putting all the eggs in the QB basket. Try harder. Think critically. Don't just try and make loud, concrete and wild points.
I shouldn't say think critically because moving on from a QB like TL is most definitely a deep cut into the norm. I just find it hard to believe someone can feel so strongly about a QB like Lawrence and act like it's such an easy decision. It's anything but. TL is a good QB who maybe was a bit overrated coming out of college but the guy can most definitely play at a high level and it's only 3 years in now. QBs aren't finished products so soon and it's not like the QB has played poorly. HE's been a winning player and has a playoff win under his belt. Moving on in such cavalier fashion....yea ok.
Quote:
In comment 16446351 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 16446303 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Well this is why. If NE drafts a QB at 3 and starts him right away, I'll bet any amount of money he won't succeed. That team is just terrible.
Isn't that what everyone said about Houston last year?
I have no idea what anyone said about Houston. I'm talking about New England.
The thing is you really don't know.. but we won't find out till this time a few years from now. The statement you are making now is the same many (may be including you) would've made last year about Houston.. but a good QB can make all the difference in the world cause we see that happen quite often.. Houston last year is a great case and point..
You put a QB who still needs to develop in a bad situation and that can lead to develop bad habits and it can damage the confidence. So while, yes, a good QB can make the difference, we see many many examples of QBs with success and traits at the college level who fail. Some of them were going to fail regardless, but I'd argue that more of them than we realize fail because of poor fit, mishandling, and lack of environment conducive to development. It's one of the reasons even good scouts with unGodly resources at their disposal have such a poor hit rate on these guys. And if you consider that the top prospects usually go to the worst teams, it's easy to see why there's such a high failure rate. The % of QBs who are locks to be great no matter the circumstances is not very high.
you can take an undrafted rookie QB and look pretty much the same as Jones..
And it's not the worst idea to consider trading him. TL still has two years left on his deal at very team friendly cap hits, and there is some very good pedigree there. So, I could see a good market for his services.
I've seen this comp before between Jones and Lawrence. While they look similar on paper, they don't look similar to me on the field. Lawrence looks like a legit NFL QB.