If we landed Odunze and Trade up for Penix. Penix has his medical concerns, but I have absolutely no doubt he will be a good pro. Even if his career is cut short, I could still live with 4 or 5 years of good play.
Penix is clear QB4 for me. Much cleaner thrower of the football than McCarthy, and much quicker release. Don’t confuse McCarthy’s young age with “upside”
The travel, one person can't be everywhere all the time. As long as the Giants have someone there that is whats important, it shows they are interested.
But with how this league values QBs, tell me how Penix lasts from 13 (right after Denver likely takes Nix at 12) all the way to 47, without us having to trade up.
First clear sign to me that they won't necessarily throw their hands up and concede if they miss out on the top 4, or if the price is too high to trade up.
My guess is Penix goes somewhere in the teens/twenties
Despite the injury concerns, the guy can throw the ball. I see some suggesting he will be there in the second round but I would be really surprised if that happens.
Is a game that makes you go wow, reminded me of Strouds game vs Georgia. Eye opening.
Seriously? The Stroud game was basically against an NFL defense. Not even close in my opinion. Go look at his national championship game. Extremely underwhelming and exactly what I think he'll be in the NFL. Mediocre at best.
The travel, one person can't be everywhere all the time. As long as the Giants have someone there that is whats important, it shows they are interested.
Per Jordan Raanan.. Schoen is there as well.. It sounds like they will private workout with Maye.
One of the toughest players to peg due to injuries. Could go in the teens, could go in the 3rd round or later. Will be very interesting to see where he winds up. I have a feeling he will put his injury history behind him and have a great NFL career like Frank Gore did after sliding in the draft due to injury history. I would take him at 47 if he slid and we took WR in rd1.
but I don't see them moving on from Jones, using injuries as a big part of that reason apparently, and then going to Penix who's had 2 ACL tears on the same knee along with the shoulder injuries.
I believe it's JJM or Maye.
RE: RE: My guess is Daboll and Schoen are splitting up
The travel, one person can't be everywhere all the time. As long as the Giants have someone there that is whats important, it shows they are interested.
Per Jordan Raanan.. Schoen is there as well.. It sounds like they will private workout with Maye.
If schoen and Daboll aren't there then they obviously aren't interested ;)
Because he doesn't run much, there's been this misconception that Penix is immobile, like a Bernie Kosar type. Couldn't be further from the truth. He's very athletic and adept at avoiding pressure - he just isn't a guy who will pull it down and take off very much.
that Penix gets past Seattle at 16. He can spin that ball as good as anybody. Penix lower rating than the top four is due to his durability concerns. If we draft him he immediately is our best QB.
choice for this team.. But sure, get a guy with injury concerns and no mobility skills that fit our offense.
See what I mean about the incorrect perception of immobility? This is just flat-out incorrect. He's been very difficult to pressure his entire career. Not just at Washington with elite skill players around him, but at Indiana as well.
One thing no one is saying though: Penix isn't a good thrower.
I think he is clearly the best thrower in this class, and he becomes one of the best throwers in the NFL the day he is drafted. And for those who only like to look back in Giants history, this is the guy that's most like Simms and Eli.
but I don't see them moving on from Jones, using injuries as a big part of that reason apparently, and then going to Penix who's had 2 ACL tears on the same knee along with the shoulder injuries.
I believe it's JJM or Maye.
I agree. I think they are going to get Maye or McCarthy.
The travel, one person can't be everywhere all the time. As long as the Giants have someone there that is whats important, it shows they are interested.
Wrong:
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
27m
Giants contingent in Washington includes GM Joe Schoen (right), director of player personnel Tim McDonnell (left) and coach Brian Daboll (not pictured).
Washington QB Michael Penix Jr. expected to throw at Thursday’s Pro Day.
player. Fantastic arm strength and accuracy, rarely gets sacked, excellent deep ball, and apparently reads defenses very well. The injuries are concerning, especially since we'd essentially be replacing one injury-riddled QB with another if we drafted him. I originally didn't want to draft him until day three for that reason, but would now be OK with the Giants taking in the middle of the first after a trade down. His talent is that good IMO.
Funny I was going to post today have the Giants scheduled
late teens to around 20.
A package which would include next year's #1, could conceivably, get them within range.
That would get them a blue chip receiver, and their new QB.
are doing their due diligence for sure. They saw a lot of UNC games and it sounds like a private workout for Maye will be happening in the coming weeks so I wouldn't put much stock in missing UNC for Washington. They probably want to see more of Penix in person.
What this does do though it show the NFL that they are considering a wide array of QBs and will hide their desire for their favorite (still believe that's Maye).
That would be a homerun. Imagine Penix going vertical with Nabers, Hyatt, and Slayton. Instantly get some major strengths on offense and see if we can fix his limitations.
I'm honestly waiting to hear a precise argument against Penix
I think he has the potential (evil word in sports) to be the best QB of the bunch. But, he also could easily flame out from injury or lack of experience under any kind of pressure.
But, a combo or Odunze/Nabers and Penix is interesting.
One thing no one is saying though: Penix isn't a good thrower.
I think he is clearly the best thrower in this class, and he becomes one of the best throwers in the NFL the day he is drafted. And for those who only like to look back in Giants history, this is the guy that's most like Simms and Eli.
Penix can sling the ball, but he is older, he has injuries, while he ran a 4.58 he doesn't show that on the field, and the main reason I don't like the fit... He is left handed. That just doesn't fit our bad OL and RT issues. On a team like the 49ers or Miami I think he would be great.
One thing no one is saying though: Penix isn't a good thrower.
I think he is clearly the best thrower in this class, and he becomes one of the best throwers in the NFL the day he is drafted. And for those who only like to look back in Giants history, this is the guy that's most like Simms and Eli.
I want Odunze and Penix. Any of WR1 are fine with me though. If Penix doesn’t hit, draft another 1. Get the Bluechip player at 6 though, if it is a QB, yay!!! If not Penix can spin it. Giant hands.
outside of the injury situation. What are his limitations as a QB that are hard to coach around, whereas guys like McCarthy and Maye have "potential?"
90% of the limitations you will read on this forum are a direct output of the National Championship game against Michigan which seems to be the only game Penix played that many on this board watched.
"He is a statue. He can't handle pressure. He just throws jump balls to stellar receivers."
Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
90% of the limitations you will read on this forum are a direct output of the National Championship game against Michigan which seems to be the only game Penix played that many on this board watched.
Agreed, it's been very hard to sort through the noise of that game to get an informed opinion on the guy.
If we landed Odunze and Trade up for Penix. Penix has his medical concerns, but I have absolutely no doubt he will be a good pro. Even if his career is cut short, I could still live with 4 or 5 years of good play.
That would be a great draft if that would happen. Joe Schoen should continue adding to the OL, for the sake of the QB, whomever is under center.
I don't know how JS could be able to draft those two gifted players, but I sure wish he'd give it a chance to happen.
Penix + Brian Thomas would be my dream first round
If we can find a way to land Penix and have enough capital to trade up for Thomas, that would be a coup.
Love Nabers but I think you have to get the QB first, for fear if losing him. There will still be some great weapons/pass catchers on the board after pick 16. Can’t say the same about QB.
Ideal scenario: trade down with Min for 11 and 23. Draft Penix at 11. Trade back into the teens using 23 + 47/70 to nab Thomas (or Mitchell as a fall-back).
for non-runners to succeed. we all know the bust rate on qbs, i think when you have to win entirely from the pocket that makes the margin for error that much slimmer. many of the qbs who have overachieved in the last decade (russ, dak, hurts, lamar, etc) did so in part because they were able to run early in their careers before they developed as passers.
the 4.58 forty is interesting and a factor that warrants revisiting what's achievable, but its hard to know whats achievable especially given the injury history.
cj stroud was no great runner but he'd at least shown against UGA it may be a skill he could tap into (12 rushes, 34 yards) - which he did as a rookie running 39 times for 167 yards, 4 ypc, and 17 first downs. he had also only played 2 years of CFB so was in theory less of a developed product. herbert isnt considered a runner but in the cristobal offense he did run a bit (in his last rose bowl vs wis he had almost as many completions as rush attempts). herbert has run for 911 yards (4.1 ypc) and 81 first downs in 62 games a pro.
total non-runners like goff have a much higher burden of success from pocket. penix is almost 24 and been in CFB for 6 years, i think it's likely he is in that non-runner category though like i said the 40 time does at least make you wonder if he can at least keep defenses honest with 1-2 well timed runs (esp in rz).
RE: RE: I'm honestly waiting to hear a precise argument against Penix
Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
age only matters if there’s a high likelihood of untapped potential, and Penix is the better passer right now by a big margin. The injuries can’t be ignored but his age doesn’t matter.
RE: RE: RE: I'm honestly waiting to hear a precise argument against Penix
Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
Yeah you can tell who watches college football and who tuned in for the CFP games.
RE: RE: RE: I'm honestly waiting to hear a precise argument against Penix
Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
Maybe you guys can sit down together and tell each other how smart and all-knowing you are.
"You're smart!"
"No, you're smarter!"
"No, you are really!"
RE: i have no problem if they take penix but i think it's a lot harder
for non-runners to succeed. we all know the bust rate on qbs, i think when you have to win entirely from the pocket that makes the margin for error that much slimmer. many of the qbs who have overachieved in the last decade (russ, dak, hurts, lamar, etc) did so in part because they were able to run early in their careers before they developed as passers.
Agreed. Being a purely pocket player/savant like Brady is definitely possible, but that takes time because NFL defenses are just galaxies better than college defenses.
So, I would rather gamble (and even fail) on a mobile QB than have to construct a top OL for a mostly stationary QB hoping that he can master that role.
One of the toughest players to peg due to injuries. Could go in the teens, could go in the 3rd round or later. Will be very interesting to see where he winds up. I have a feeling he will put his injury history behind him and have a great NFL career like Frank Gore did after sliding in the draft due to injury history. I would take him at 47 if he slid and we took WR in rd1.
Theres no shot he makes it to the 3rd round or later.
I'm guessing he doesn't make it past 20 and that's being conservative.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm honestly waiting to hear a precise argument against Penix
in college because sacks count as rush attempts, but Penix did run a bit at Indy. And while he has run much less at UW, was that due to his injuries or offensive design? UW wanted to throw deep, they didn’t call on the QB to run much. Even then, Penix did have a couple of games where he ripped off a couple of big runs. 2 rushes for 34 yds v WSU, 3 for 31 v TX, 3 for 22 v OSU.
He’s never going to be Lamar, but I think he can run enough to keep defenses honest. I’m more concerned with how he maneuvers in the pocket, and I’ve been really impressed there.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm honestly waiting to hear a precise argument against Penix
Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
Maybe you guys can sit down together and tell each other how smart and all-knowing you are.
"You're smart!"
"No, you're smarter!"
"No, you are really!"
Drawing broad opinions on a player from a single game is dumb. If you want to act like that is some weird superiority complex have at it, but it is absolutely dumb.
Look at jones, guts hurt all the time. I'd rather my QB find the receiver and move around a little. He can throw it away and live another day.
Age is BS, he's 24 so what! Brady played into his 40s. If nothing else he may be more NFL ready than the rest, maybe he's a short term answer, but we just don't know.
Getting a stud WR and this guy will change our offense over night. If Neal can't cut it on the right then we have Eluemunor.
No risk it, no biscuit!
RE: RE: RE: Anyone have a clue when Penix will be taken?
One of the toughest players to peg due to injuries. Could go in the teens, could go in the 3rd round or later. Will be very interesting to see where he winds up. I have a feeling he will put his injury history behind him and have a great NFL career like Frank Gore did after sliding in the draft due to injury history. I would take him at 47 if he slid and we took WR in rd1.
Theres no shot he makes it to the 3rd round or later.
I'm guessing he doesn't make it past 20 and that's being conservative.
I would find it surprising…2 ACL injuries on the same knee. Has a player ever came back from 3 ACL injuries? If not, that is a massive risk for a 1st round QB.
They can do both. No matter what you think of Jones's talent, it's the smart thing to do. You can never have too many quarterbacks. I'm actually a big Penix fan. Aside from the injury history, he's my kind of QB, but I'm not sure he's Daboll's kind of QB.
They can do both. No matter what you think of Jones's talent, it's the smart thing to do. You can never have too many quarterbacks. I'm actually a big Penix fan. Aside from the injury history, he's my kind of QB, but I'm not sure he's Daboll's kind of QB.
The Giants are not drafting a QB in the first round to serve as Jones' back-up for the next three years.
Penix is a great downfield passer with a very strong arm.
He had an amazing year in 2023. However, I have some concerns.
Certain traits are more indicative of success.
Younger prospects have demonstrated more success when transitioning to the NFL. Penix will be 24 on May 8th.
The ability to produce under pressure is one of the most determining factors in QBs.
Penix is tied with Maye at 43% having the lowest completion rate among the QBs.
Penix did not face a lot of pressure, he had one of the best lines in college football.
Quote:
Washington has thrown the ball 523 times this season, most in the nation, yet allowed only 11 sacks
Quote:
-Michael Penix has an average PFF grade under pressure. Penix is only completing 43% of his passes when under pressure, but his adj. completion rate is average amongst the prospects. Penix has been sacked second least, with the lowest time to throw, even though he leads all the others in ADOT. Penix converts pressures to first downs at the 2nd lowest rate in the group.
The ability to extend plays and escape pressure.
Penix Jr has extremely good athleticism but he does not use it to extend plays. He will force passes and throw balls away to avoid taking a sack when opportunities to run exist.
Health and physique.
Quote:
a problematic injury history, including two ACL tears; his age (he will be 24 in the spring, which could be interpreted as a limitation on further improvement); a slim lower body; a slightly sidewinding, left-handed delivery; a lack of a running element to his game; some difficulty with shorter throws; and uncertainty regarding how much of his success can be attributed to an elite receiver group (particularly Rome Odunze) and an elite scheme under coach Kalen DeBoer and offensive coordinator Ryan Grubb.
Short and intermediate passing leaves a lot to be desired.
Quote:
While lauding Penix’s downfield prowess, another scout echoed concerns about the shorter passing game: “His release point is super low. That’s why the short and intermediate game is spotty. He has a fastball throw, not a lot of touch.”
In conclusion, I believe that Penix Jr may have reached his potential and that there is not a lot of upside. He has draftable skills but they do not offset some problems.
The inability to process under pressure, his frail frame and injury history, inaccuracy underneath, funky release, and his inability to extend plays, raise concerns.
If he were a third-round pick I could see betting on his potential to develop.
I hope the Giants don't consider him until the third round.
Poor in the championship game when the environment wasn't very favorable. After a bunch of hits he winds up being hobbled on the field. Very concerning considering his injury history.
Hard to replicate the favorable environments that a lot of of these college QB's enjoy in the NFL. Being durable matters imv.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Anyone have a clue when Penix will be taken?
a carbon copy of Philip Rivers. You can videos of Penix flipped to make it look like he’s a righty, and the similarity is uncanny. I don’t remember anyone complaining about Rivers’ short to intermediate accuracy.
I honestly wouldn't consider Penix until the third round
Albert Breer
@AlbertBreer
The Giants had a BIG crew in Seattle for Washington QB Michael Penix and WR Rome Odunze's Pro Day. In the group: HC Brian Daboll, OC Mike Kafka, QBs coach Shea Tierney, WRs coach Mike Groh, plus GM Joe Schoen, ass't GM Brandon Brown and director of player personnel Tim McDonnell.
The talk around Penix has been so negative for months, but they don't seem to buy into it.
I did listen to them. Like everyone they have their own biases about what makes a good NFL QB. For any of the Top 6 QB's you can find a commentator who says that their specific skill set makes them the at or near the top of this year's class. In the right set up I think Penix can be a solid NFL starting QB, but I question if that is the Giants. Our weakest point of our OL would be his blindside and he does have an injury history. Look at what has happened with someone like Tua in the NFL (who the Dolphins would be stupid to overpay but are in a tough situation because they are too good to get a replacement in the draft and have no cap room to sign someone)
They were very good, but the 11 sacks has as much, if not more, to do with Penix getting rid of the ball quickly. He was pressured on 25% of his drop backs, so it’s not like he wasn’t pressured. And his average yardage per completion under pressure was the highest of any of the top 6 QB’s.
I’ve watched every one of his throws, and if I could find a fault, it’s that he did seem at times too quick to throw the ball away. How much of that is on him, or him being coached not to take sacks, I don’t know, but you can be sure Daboll asked him about it.
If we landed Odunze and Trade up for Penix. Penix has his medical concerns, but I have absolutely no doubt he will be a good pro. Even if his career is cut short, I could still live with 4 or 5 years of good play.
I am with you but he will not last long. I think he will be gone pretty quick so I don't see it happening. If Giants want him take him at six and trade back up for WR .
The Giants are not drafting a QB in the first round to serve as Jones' back-up for the next three years.
One year at a time. Unless the rumor is true, but we don't know that. If he's perfectly healthy, I expect Jones to start the season. And then they can let 2024 determine what they do in 2025.
Klatt says Penix would be an upgrade over Tua throwing to those speedsters. If that's the case, what about throwing to Slayton and Hyatt? Link - ( New Window )
The travel, one person can't be everywhere all the time. As long as the Giants have someone there that is whats important, it shows they are interested.
Looks like everyone is there...
Quote:
Albert Breer of SI.com reports that head coach Brian Daboll, offensive coordinator Mike Kafka, quarterbacks coach Shea Tierney, receivers coach Mike Groh, General Manager Joe Schoen, assistant G.M. Brandon Brown and director of player personnel Tim McDonnell were among those present for the team.
The Giants are not drafting a QB in the first round to serve as Jones' back-up for the next three years.
One year at a time. Unless the rumor is true, but we don't know that. If he's perfectly healthy, I expect Jones to start the season. And then they can let 2024 determine what they do in 2025.
The draft isn’t about one year a time. Investing a high pick in a QB signals everything DJ needs to know and that is his time as a NYG is near over.
If the Giants are smart then he will never see the field again in a Giants uniform. If they have a mindset likes yours that they can’t see more than a foot in front of their face then they will keep losing.
You should apply for a front office job, you’re just their type.
If Penix passes every medical test the Giants need, then I would
go with him versus being stuck with JJ as the fourth QB off the board.
If Schoen can somehow get Maye (assuming Caleb and Daniels are locked now at #1 and #2) then I go with that as Path A. Path B is drafting an elite WR at #6 and then navigating to get Penix when Schoen thinks it makes sense.
If Schoen strikes out on Path A and Path B then he’s failing at this job. This and screwing up the Jones decision are body blows to his future as a GM.
Anybody still talking about Penix in the 2nd round
Drafting a QB in the first round is not a "one year at a time" move.
It was when Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, and Julian Love were drafted. Every situation is unique, it's not like there are a million sample sets from which you can draw clearcut predictions. Regardless of what anyone suspects or expects will happen, if Jones is healthy and starts the season, he will remain the starter as long as the team is winning and he remains healthy. I'm not sure why that's so difficult for you to comprehend. If I said "something without saying anything" it's because you're too close minded to see beyond your own preconceived notion on what the future will bring. When the Giants failed to pick up Jones's option, I was told that it meant there was no chance he'd be extended because no QB who hadn't had his 5th year option picked up had ever remained beyond his rookie contract with the team that drafted him. The past isn't always prologue, especially when there's not a lot of "past" to go on.
When the Giants failed to pick up Jones's option, I was told that it meant there was no chance he'd be extended because no QB who hadn't had his 5th year option picked up had ever remained beyond his rookie contract with the team that drafted him.
I was the one who researched that factual history and put it on the board and I recall the discussion. You were not told there was no chance Jones could be the first to get an extension after his option was declined. Not only did I not say that, I expressly said the opposite.
When the Giants failed to pick up Jones's option, I was told that it meant there was no chance he'd be extended because no QB who hadn't had his 5th year option picked up had ever remained beyond his rookie contract with the team that drafted him.
I was the one who researched that factual history and put it on the board and I recall the discussion. You were not told there was no chance Jones could be the first to get an extension after his option was declined. Not only did I not say that, I expressly said the opposite.
I'm referring to an exchange I had with JonC. I'm sure there were several times it was discussed on BBI at the time.
Daniel Jones is no Drew Brees, Brett Favre, or Aaron Rodgers.
Nor was he Jack Kennedy. None of which is the point. All that matters is who will start the season and how long will the Giants stick with that guy? The answer to the second part of the question is: they will stick with him as long as he is playing well and the team is winning. The answer to the first part of the question has mostly to do with Jones's health and possible concerns over re-injury to his neck. Ergo, if Jones is deemed 100% healthy, I think he starts the season. Everything after that is just a series of hypotheticals. We can argue until we're blue in the face over the likelihood of this and that happening; how long Jones keeps his job will be determined on the field, not via debate.
but GoTerps has been spot on about Penix. I watched at least 4 of Washington's regular season games this year and he throws the ball better than any QB in the draft. Putting aside his injury history, I would be thrilled if he was a Giant.
But with how this league values QBs, tell me how Penix lasts from 13 (right after Denver likely takes Nix at 12) all the way to 47, without us having to trade up.
Despite the injury concerns, the guy can throw the ball. I see some suggesting he will be there in the second round but I would be really surprised if that happens.
I would sign up for that right now.
Seriously? The Stroud game was basically against an NFL defense. Not even close in my opinion. Go look at his national championship game. Extremely underwhelming and exactly what I think he'll be in the NFL. Mediocre at best.
holy crap that is way faster than I was expecting
This is my dream scenario
Per Jordan Raanan.. Schoen is there as well.. It sounds like they will private workout with Maye.
I thought the same thing.
They are taking a QB somewhere in the first 47 picks.
One of the toughest players to peg due to injuries. Could go in the teens, could go in the 3rd round or later. Will be very interesting to see where he winds up. I have a feeling he will put his injury history behind him and have a great NFL career like Frank Gore did after sliding in the draft due to injury history. I would take him at 47 if he slid and we took WR in rd1.
I believe it's JJM or Maye.
Quote:
The travel, one person can't be everywhere all the time. As long as the Giants have someone there that is whats important, it shows they are interested.
Per Jordan Raanan.. Schoen is there as well.. It sounds like they will private workout with Maye.
If schoen and Daboll aren't there then they obviously aren't interested ;)
Because he doesn't run much, there's been this misconception that Penix is immobile, like a Bernie Kosar type. Couldn't be further from the truth. He's very athletic and adept at avoiding pressure - he just isn't a guy who will pull it down and take off very much.
See what I mean about the incorrect perception of immobility? This is just flat-out incorrect. He's been very difficult to pressure his entire career. Not just at Washington with elite skill players around him, but at Indiana as well.
I think he is clearly the best thrower in this class, and he becomes one of the best throwers in the NFL the day he is drafted. And for those who only like to look back in Giants history, this is the guy that's most like Simms and Eli.
Really no commitment to Jones beyond opener and only if he is ready.
Before the last game, Lock will be the starter and BBI will decide the Giants don’t need Jones or a rookie QB.
I believe it's JJM or Maye.
I agree. I think they are going to get Maye or McCarthy.
We just have to come out of this draft with a succession plan at QB.
Wrong:
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
27m
Giants contingent in Washington includes GM Joe Schoen (right), director of player personnel Tim McDonnell (left) and coach Brian Daboll (not pictured).
Washington QB Michael Penix Jr. expected to throw at Thursday’s Pro Day.
I wish!
A package which would include next year's #1, could conceivably, get them within range.
That would get them a blue chip receiver, and their new QB.
What this does do though it show the NFL that they are considering a wide array of QBs and will hide their desire for their favorite (still believe that's Maye).
@OmarDRuiz
·
12m
Joe Schoen also part of the #Giants contingent, as well as OC Mike Kafka
But, a combo or Odunze/Nabers and Penix is interesting.
I think he is clearly the best thrower in this class, and he becomes one of the best throwers in the NFL the day he is drafted. And for those who only like to look back in Giants history, this is the guy that's most like Simms and Eli.
Penix can sling the ball, but he is older, he has injuries, while he ran a 4.58 he doesn't show that on the field, and the main reason I don't like the fit... He is left handed. That just doesn't fit our bad OL and RT issues. On a team like the 49ers or Miami I think he would be great.
I think he is clearly the best thrower in this class, and he becomes one of the best throwers in the NFL the day he is drafted. And for those who only like to look back in Giants history, this is the guy that's most like Simms and Eli.
Penix - ( New Window )
90% of the limitations you will read on this forum are a direct output of the National Championship game against Michigan which seems to be the only game Penix played that many on this board watched.
"He is a statue. He can't handle pressure. He just throws jump balls to stellar receivers."
Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
Miami was scared of Brees' shoulder in FA and that was on his throwing arm, so he goes to New Orleans and will be a HOFer.
Agreed, it's been very hard to sort through the noise of that game to get an informed opinion on the guy.
Daniel Jones ran a 4.81 at the combine and a 4.67 at his pro day by way of comparison.
But Jones is a weapon as a runner and Penix is a statue...
Age (24 soon) and a laundry list of injuries. It's a big factor for many teams and he may not be on many teams' draft boards.
Maye and McCarthy are 22 (Maye, 22 in August) and 21 and don't have the injury history.
He may be a fine gamble later on, but for a 1st round pick, it (injuries) is a big risk.
That would be a great draft if that would happen. Joe Schoen should continue adding to the OL, for the sake of the QB, whomever is under center.
I don't know how JS could be able to draft those two gifted players, but I sure wish he'd give it a chance to happen.
Love Nabers but I think you have to get the QB first, for fear if losing him. There will still be some great weapons/pass catchers on the board after pick 16. Can’t say the same about QB.
Ideal scenario: trade down with Min for 11 and 23. Draft Penix at 11. Trade back into the teens using 23 + 47/70 to nab Thomas (or Mitchell as a fall-back).
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outside of the injury situation. What are his limitations as a QB that are hard to coach around, whereas guys like McCarthy and Maye have "potential?"
Age (24 soon) and a laundry list of injuries. It's a big factor for many teams and he may not be on many teams' draft boards.
Maye and McCarthy are 22 (Maye, 22 in August) and 21 and don't have the injury history.
He may be a fine gamble later on, but for a 1st round pick, it (injuries) is a big risk.
Maye and McCarthy also weren't as good as Penix. Does that factor in?
Watch the three guys throw and there's only one conclusion.
the 4.58 forty is interesting and a factor that warrants revisiting what's achievable, but its hard to know whats achievable especially given the injury history.
cj stroud was no great runner but he'd at least shown against UGA it may be a skill he could tap into (12 rushes, 34 yards) - which he did as a rookie running 39 times for 167 yards, 4 ypc, and 17 first downs. he had also only played 2 years of CFB so was in theory less of a developed product. herbert isnt considered a runner but in the cristobal offense he did run a bit (in his last rose bowl vs wis he had almost as many completions as rush attempts). herbert has run for 911 yards (4.1 ypc) and 81 first downs in 62 games a pro.
total non-runners like goff have a much higher burden of success from pocket. penix is almost 24 and been in CFB for 6 years, i think it's likely he is in that non-runner category though like i said the 40 time does at least make you wonder if he can at least keep defenses honest with 1-2 well timed runs (esp in rz).
Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
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In comment 16449005 widmerseyebrow said:
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outside of the injury situation. What are his limitations as a QB that are hard to coach around, whereas guys like McCarthy and Maye have "potential?"
Age (24 soon) and a laundry list of injuries. It's a big factor for many teams and he may not be on many teams' draft boards.
Maye and McCarthy are 22 (Maye, 22 in August) and 21 and don't have the injury history.
He may be a fine gamble later on, but for a 1st round pick, it (injuries) is a big risk.
Maye and McCarthy also weren't as good as Penix. Does that factor in?
Watch the three guys throw and there's only one conclusion.
+1
Would be thrilled with Penix - even at 6.
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Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
Yeah you can tell who watches college football and who tuned in for the CFP games.
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Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
Maybe you guys can sit down together and tell each other how smart and all-knowing you are.
"You're smart!"
"No, you're smarter!"
"No, you are really!"
Agreed. Being a purely pocket player/savant like Brady is definitely possible, but that takes time because NFL defenses are just galaxies better than college defenses.
So, I would rather gamble (and even fail) on a mobile QB than have to construct a top OL for a mostly stationary QB hoping that he can master that role.
Except, he's already had two ACL surgeries on the same right knee. A third ACL tear and surgery could be reconstructive or career ending.
Penix, Odunze, Daboll - ( New Window )
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One of the toughest players to peg due to injuries. Could go in the teens, could go in the 3rd round or later. Will be very interesting to see where he winds up. I have a feeling he will put his injury history behind him and have a great NFL career like Frank Gore did after sliding in the draft due to injury history. I would take him at 47 if he slid and we took WR in rd1.
Theres no shot he makes it to the 3rd round or later.
I'm guessing he doesn't make it past 20 and that's being conservative.
Maybe you guys can sit down together and tell each other how smart and all-knowing you are.
"You're smart!"
"No, you're smarter!"
"No, you are really!"
Smarter? No. More informed? Most of the time - yes.
So, that's the better word - informed.
He’s never going to be Lamar, but I think he can run enough to keep defenses honest. I’m more concerned with how he maneuvers in the pocket, and I’ve been really impressed there.
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In comment 16449025 Mike from Ohio said:
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Some of the dumbest posts I have seen on this site are from people who drew conclusions about Penix based only on that game.
This is true.
On the other hand, I have read quite a bit that McCarthy showed his greatness forever with his game-tying drive versus Alabama. The tone of some of these comments would make you believe this was akin to Brady's SB comeback against the Falcons.
Maybe you guys can sit down together and tell each other how smart and all-knowing you are.
"You're smart!"
"No, you're smarter!"
"No, you are really!"
Drawing broad opinions on a player from a single game is dumb. If you want to act like that is some weird superiority complex have at it, but it is absolutely dumb.
Age is BS, he's 24 so what! Brady played into his 40s. If nothing else he may be more NFL ready than the rest, maybe he's a short term answer, but we just don't know.
Getting a stud WR and this guy will change our offense over night. If Neal can't cut it on the right then we have Eluemunor.
No risk it, no biscuit!
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In comment 16448897 cosmicj said:
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One of the toughest players to peg due to injuries. Could go in the teens, could go in the 3rd round or later. Will be very interesting to see where he winds up. I have a feeling he will put his injury history behind him and have a great NFL career like Frank Gore did after sliding in the draft due to injury history. I would take him at 47 if he slid and we took WR in rd1.
Theres no shot he makes it to the 3rd round or later.
I'm guessing he doesn't make it past 20 and that's being conservative.
I would find it surprising…2 ACL injuries on the same knee. Has a player ever came back from 3 ACL injuries? If not, that is a massive risk for a 1st round QB.
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DJ, they sure are scouting the hell out of QBs...
They can do both. No matter what you think of Jones's talent, it's the smart thing to do. You can never have too many quarterbacks. I'm actually a big Penix fan. Aside from the injury history, he's my kind of QB, but I'm not sure he's Daboll's kind of QB.
The Giants are not drafting a QB in the first round to serve as Jones' back-up for the next three years.
Penix is a great downfield passer with a very strong arm.
He had an amazing year in 2023. However, I have some concerns.
Certain traits are more indicative of success.
Younger prospects have demonstrated more success when transitioning to the NFL. Penix will be 24 on May 8th.
The ability to produce under pressure is one of the most determining factors in QBs.
Penix is tied with Maye at 43% having the lowest completion rate among the QBs.
Penix did not face a lot of pressure, he had one of the best lines in college football.
Washington has thrown the ball 523 times this season, most in the nation, yet allowed only 11 sacks
-Michael Penix has an average PFF grade under pressure. Penix is only completing 43% of his passes when under pressure, but his adj. completion rate is average amongst the prospects. Penix has been sacked second least, with the lowest time to throw, even though he leads all the others in ADOT. Penix converts pressures to first downs at the 2nd lowest rate in the group.
The ability to extend plays and escape pressure.
Penix Jr has extremely good athleticism but he does not use it to extend plays. He will force passes and throw balls away to avoid taking a sack when opportunities to run exist.
Health and physique.
a problematic injury history, including two ACL tears; his age (he will be 24 in the spring, which could be interpreted as a limitation on further improvement); a slim lower body; a slightly sidewinding, left-handed delivery; a lack of a running element to his game; some difficulty with shorter throws; and uncertainty regarding how much of his success can be attributed to an elite receiver group (particularly Rome Odunze) and an elite scheme under coach Kalen DeBoer and offensive coordinator Ryan Grubb.
Short and intermediate passing leaves a lot to be desired.
While lauding Penix’s downfield prowess, another scout echoed concerns about the shorter passing game: “His release point is super low. That’s why the short and intermediate game is spotty. He has a fastball throw, not a lot of touch.”
In conclusion, I believe that Penix Jr may have reached his potential and that there is not a lot of upside. He has draftable skills but they do not offset some problems.
The inability to process under pressure, his frail frame and injury history, inaccuracy underneath, funky release, and his inability to extend plays, raise concerns.
If he were a third-round pick I could see betting on his potential to develop.
Poor in the championship game when the environment wasn't very favorable. After a bunch of hits he winds up being hobbled on the field. Very concerning considering his injury history.
Hard to replicate the favorable environments that a lot of of these college QB's enjoy in the NFL. Being durable matters imv.
Thomas Davis
@AlbertBreer
The Giants had a BIG crew in Seattle for Washington QB Michael Penix and WR Rome Odunze's Pro Day. In the group: HC Brian Daboll, OC Mike Kafka, QBs coach Shea Tierney, WRs coach Mike Groh, plus GM Joe Schoen, ass't GM Brandon Brown and director of player personnel Tim McDonnell.
The Giants obviously have a different assessment than the one posted above by Archer.
I did listen to them. Like everyone they have their own biases about what makes a good NFL QB. For any of the Top 6 QB's you can find a commentator who says that their specific skill set makes them the at or near the top of this year's class. In the right set up I think Penix can be a solid NFL starting QB, but I question if that is the Giants. Our weakest point of our OL would be his blindside and he does have an injury history. Look at what has happened with someone like Tua in the NFL (who the Dolphins would be stupid to overpay but are in a tough situation because they are too good to get a replacement in the draft and have no cap room to sign someone)
I do not like Maye and many consider him a top 3 pick.
My concerns about Penix are similar to my concerns about Maye.
I prefer QBs such as Williams, Daniels, McCarthy, and even Nix.
There is another thing to consider the Giant's contingency is there to see Odunze. He is their potential first pick.
I do not like Maye and many consider him a top 3 pick.
My concerns about Penix are similar to my concerns about Maye.
I prefer QBs such as Williams, Daniels, McCarthy, and even Nix.
There is another thing to consider the Giant's contingency is there to see Odunze. He is their potential first pick.
Odunze is not participating. That does not mean that he isn't present and you can see how he interacts with the players who are participating.
Link - ( New Window )
I do not like Maye and many consider him a top 3 pick.
My concerns about Penix are similar to my concerns about Maye.
I prefer QBs such as Williams, Daniels, McCarthy, and even Nix.
There is another thing to consider the Giant's contingency is there to see Odunze. He is their potential first pick.
That is a large contingent to watch a guy not workout.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one - they are there to watch Penix.
At this point it seems like that would cost next year's first rounder in a trade up.
I would be floored, pleasantly, if the Giants drafted Penix. I don't see it.
I’ve watched every one of his throws, and if I could find a fault, it’s that he did seem at times too quick to throw the ball away. How much of that is on him, or him being coached not to take sacks, I don’t know, but you can be sure Daboll asked him about it.
I am with you but he will not last long. I think he will be gone pretty quick so I don't see it happening. If Giants want him take him at six and trade back up for WR .
The Giants are not drafting a QB in the first round to serve as Jones' back-up for the next three years.
Drafting a QB in the first round is not a "one year at a time" move.
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He was no fan of Drake.
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The Giants are not drafting a QB in the first round to serve as Jones' back-up for the next three years.
One year at a time. Unless the rumor is true, but we don't know that. If he's perfectly healthy, I expect Jones to start the season. And then they can let 2024 determine what they do in 2025.
The draft isn’t about one year a time. Investing a high pick in a QB signals everything DJ needs to know and that is his time as a NYG is near over.
If the Giants are smart then he will never see the field again in a Giants uniform. If they have a mindset likes yours that they can’t see more than a foot in front of their face then they will keep losing.
You should apply for a front office job, you’re just their type.
If Schoen can somehow get Maye (assuming Caleb and Daniels are locked now at #1 and #2) then I go with that as Path A. Path B is drafting an elite WR at #6 and then navigating to get Penix when Schoen thinks it makes sense.
If Schoen strikes out on Path A and Path B then he’s failing at this job. This and screwing up the Jones decision are body blows to his future as a GM.
And it speaks well for his professionalism that he was so well prepared.
Fascinating day in the off season.
Drafting a QB in the first round is not a "one year at a time" move.
Jordan Love sat behind Aaron Rodgers.
Daniel Jones is no Drew Brees, Brett Favre, or Aaron Rodgers.
I was the one who researched that factual history and put it on the board and I recall the discussion. You were not told there was no chance Jones could be the first to get an extension after his option was declined. Not only did I not say that, I expressly said the opposite.
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When the Giants failed to pick up Jones's option, I was told that it meant there was no chance he'd be extended because no QB who hadn't had his 5th year option picked up had ever remained beyond his rookie contract with the team that drafted him.
I was the one who researched that factual history and put it on the board and I recall the discussion. You were not told there was no chance Jones could be the first to get an extension after his option was declined. Not only did I not say that, I expressly said the opposite.
Fuck off.
Jordan Love sat behind Aaron Rodgers.
Daniel Jones is no Drew Brees, Brett Favre, or Aaron Rodgers.