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| Chris Pflum @RaptormkII Fans need to reconcile themselves with the idea that there isn't a "Big 3" or even a "Big 4" at QB this year. It's a "Big 6". The demarcation line is between QB 6 and QB 7. This is the 2020 QB class Part 2. If you need a QB you're going to have to take one in Rd 1. |
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| Chris Pflum @RaptormkII I've seen a lot of fans talk about getting a WR now and fixing QB... Eventually. But here's the thing: there probably won't be a QB that can fix the offense "eventually". Also, this year's WR class is incredibly deep and there will be good starters coming off the board later |
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| Chris Pflum @RaptormkII Also, next year's WR class is already exciting. Emeka Egbuka (OSU), Colbie Young (UGA), and Tetairoa McMillan (Arizona) are all on my radar. It's early yet, but next year could be a very good WR class too. |
If you think all of these QBs are busts, you will probably think that next year also. At some point you need to trust your scouts and your personnel people and go in and get one.
They need to get a talent pipeline going at the game's most important position, and they are incredibly fortunate that this draft is providing them that opportunity.
Sure you can. What top QB is coming out from Ohio State that made Marvin Harrison, Jr a star? The answer is that guy will be playing at Syracuse this year and is not on anyone's leader board for the Heisman this year. They are two different positions that can be evaluated separately.
Let’s hope their scouting process is sound.
Where I don't agree is that the line of demarcation is not between 6 and 7, there's clear drop offs as you go on, specifically between 3 and 4 (Maye McCarthy) and after 4 goes, I don't think the one's left will have "real" 1st round grades, I just think hungry teams will draft them there.
Either way, I still stand on something I've said multiple times, if a QB is sitting at 6 that we think can be a franchise guy, you take them. Hoping for one to fall in the 2nd is a gamble and god knows where we'll be picking in next years draft or how that class will shake out, because they always change.
When Jones is gone, will you follow him.
The troll is strong in this one.
You serious Clark??
Time will tell if it winds up being the correct pick, but I'm very often disappointed by the Giants drafting either way.
Talkin' Giants:
6. WR Malik Nabers
47. IOL Christian Haynes
"5th QB":
6. QB Michael Penix
47. WR Xavier Legette
Which of these leaves the Giants in a better position?
What usually happens is people talk up the QB class ahead of the draft. It’s the most visible position. But come draft night, teams almost always take the “better player” and the QB’s with warts slide a little
What usually happens is people talk up the QB class ahead of the draft. It’s the most visible position. But come draft night, teams almost always take the “better player” and the QB’s with warts slide a little
Oddly the Giants may the team that dictates whether 5 or 6 go in the first round. If QB's go 1-3 and they don't love McCarthy and take Nabers, it changes a lot in the first round.
Looking at the QB situation of the Vikings, Raiders and Broncos, I have to imagine that at the very least 2 of them take a QB, so that's 5. However, its a very real possibility that you see Williams, Daniels and Maye go 1-3 to Chi, WAS and NE. Then McCarthy, Penix and Nix to the Vikings, Raiders and Broncos.
This of course leaves us with very little QB options on day 2 unless we happen to have a surprising grade on someone like Rattler or Pratt.
This QB3, QB4, and QB5 discussion is pointless fan stuff. None of us knows how the Giants have these guys ranked. QB5 may be the guy that they really want.
This QB3, QB4, and QB5 discussion is pointless fan stuff. None of us knows how the Giants have these guys ranked. QB5 may be the guy that they really want.
True, but the Giants could also have a board where if the the first 3 QBs on their board are gone before pick 6, they go with the highest graded non-QB position when their selection is made.
Some of us have been saying it's 6 QBs since December.
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Some of the same people claiming that the needle has moved from big 3 to big 6 SINCE THE END OF THE SEASON, remain steadfast convinced that there won't be any QBs worth drafting next year. Just think about that...
Some of us have been saying it's 6 QBs since December.
But are all six are worthy of selecting at pick 6 when the Giants turn comes up, that is something only Schoen knows? I personally think not.
When Jones is gone, will you follow him.
In comment 16452761 Go Terps said:
Talkin' Giants:
6. WR Malik Nabers
47. IOL Christian Haynes
"5th QB":
6. QB Michael Penix
47. WR Xavier Legette
Which of these leaves the Giants in a better position?
Talkin' Giants:
6. WR Malik Nabers
47. IOL Christian Haynes
"5th QB":
6. QB Michael Penix
47. WR Xavier Legette
Which of these leaves the Giants in a better position?
My bar is set at "we need someone better than Jones", so it's not surprising that 6 prospects in this draft meet that criteria.
That doesn't mean the other three aren't talented and can't be considered first rounders.
For example, Penix can throw it at a plus/plus-plus level, but he isn't in the same stratosphere as the other three making plays off-platform. And he can't put pressure on a defense with his mobility like the other three.
So, why exactly should Penix be part of that group with a smaller toolbox?
A few months ago, it was mainly 2 top QBs. Then Daniels became very hot. Then JJM all of sudden jumped from round 2 candidate to top 4 can't miss candidate. After hyping JJM for a month, now it becomes 6 QBs for round 1. Wondering by the draft time are we going to have 20 can't miss QBs for round 1? Can't wait for that.
In comment 16452809 Go Terps said:
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Some of the same people claiming that the needle has moved from big 3 to big 6 SINCE THE END OF THE SEASON, remain steadfast convinced that there won't be any QBs worth drafting next year. Just think about that...
Some of us have been saying it's 6 QBs since December.
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In comment 16452806 UberAlias said:
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Some of the same people claiming that the needle has moved from big 3 to big 6 SINCE THE END OF THE SEASON, remain steadfast convinced that there won't be any QBs worth drafting next year. Just think about that...
Some of us have been saying it's 6 QBs since December.
But are all six are worthy of selecting at pick 6 when the Giants turn comes up, that is something only Schoen knows? I personally think not.
Some of these 6 guys, probably at least 3, will prove to not be worth it or bust entirely. Personally I think the most likely to bust is Maye, but there are good arguments for and against all 6 (really 5 if we assume Williams is going to Chicago).
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Your bar is set at "anyone but Jones" so that's not surprising.
My bar is set at "we need someone better than Jones", so it's not surprising that 6 prospects in this draft meet that criteria.
Better than Jones does not justify using the 6th overall pick. You use the 6th overall pick because you believe you have a franchise player who you will want to give the 5th year option to if their career develops as expected. If you do not think someone will eventually be worth the 5th year option you select them on Day 2.
If so, kind of disrespectful to Jack Stroud.
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In comment 16452812 UberAlias said:
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Your bar is set at "anyone but Jones" so that's not surprising.
My bar is set at "we need someone better than Jones", so it's not surprising that 6 prospects in this draft meet that criteria.
Better than Jones does not justify using the 6th overall pick. You use the 6th overall pick because you believe you have a franchise player who you will want to give the 5th year option to if their career develops as expected. If you do not think someone will eventually be worth the 5th year option you select them on Day 2.
How are we going to know if Nabers is worth a fifth year option when his production has been poor for three years?
That doesn't mean the other three aren't talented and can't be considered first rounders.
For example, Penix can throw it at a plus/plus-plus level, but he isn't in the same stratosphere as the other three making plays off-platform. And he can't put pressure on a defense with his mobility like the other three.
So, why exactly should Penix be part of that group with a smaller toolbox?
Because what Penix does better than the rest is the #1 skillset you need from a QB. He can throw the ball from the pocket and hit a wide receiver running a route downfield.
If Maye's accuracy concerns follow him to the NFL, he had better start running like Lamar Jackson if he is going to succeed.
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In comment 16452831 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16452812 UberAlias said:
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Your bar is set at "anyone but Jones" so that's not surprising.
My bar is set at "we need someone better than Jones", so it's not surprising that 6 prospects in this draft meet that criteria.
Better than Jones does not justify using the 6th overall pick. You use the 6th overall pick because you believe you have a franchise player who you will want to give the 5th year option to if their career develops as expected. If you do not think someone will eventually be worth the 5th year option you select them on Day 2.
How are we going to know if Nabers is worth a fifth year option when his production has been poor for three years?
Then, if QB1-4 are gone, trade down multiple times until a QB is worth selecting if you only want a QB. Don't draft him at 6.
Because what Penix does better than the rest is the #1 skillset you need from a QB. He can throw the ball from the pocket and hit a wide receiver running a route downfield.
He can? I watched Daniels also throw to NFL WRs this year with great precision and results, especially downfield.
I saw CW the last two years throw to less quality receivers than Penix or Daniels will great precision and results.
Penix may throw the ball with more velocity - maybe - but he's not doing it better, IMV.
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Because what Penix does better than the rest is the #1 skillset you need from a QB. He can throw the ball from the pocket and hit a wide receiver running a route downfield.
He can? I watched Daniels also throw to NFL WRs this year with great precision and results, especially downfield.
I saw CW the last two years throw to less quality receivers than Penix or Daniels will great precision and results.
Penix may throw the ball with more velocity - maybe - but he's not doing it better, IMV.
We'll agree to disagree on that. I think Penix is the best pure passer in this class.
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Daniels, CW, and Maye have more talent than the rest of the QBs available.
That doesn't mean the other three aren't talented and can't be considered first rounders.
For example, Penix can throw it at a plus/plus-plus level, but he isn't in the same stratosphere as the other three making plays off-platform. And he can't put pressure on a defense with his mobility like the other three.
So, why exactly should Penix be part of that group with a smaller toolbox?
Because what Penix does better than the rest is the #1 skillset you need from a QB. He can throw the ball from the pocket and hit a wide receiver running a route downfield.
If Maye's accuracy concerns follow him to the NFL, he had better start running like Lamar Jackson if he is going to succeed.
This.
I want a QB, but we need talent and if we are not getting a Round 1 caliber QB (to me there are only 4 that have that upside) I do not want to reach because that is how we end up with a Daniel Jones. Taking the wrong QB sets you back because we could have someone like Nabers and get the QB next year. What if someone better comes along next year? You are never getting anywhere near what 6th overall pick is worth in a trade down. Pickett, Fields, etc. if you said that that was all you would get for a 1st round pick on draft day you would be shish kebabed before the draft was even over.
Wow - exclamation points. You come across like you are 12 years old.
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And vice versa.
Sure you can. What top QB is coming out from Ohio State that made Marvin Harrison, Jr a star? The answer is that guy will be playing at Syracuse this year and is not on anyone's leader board for the Heisman this year. They are two different positions that can be evaluated separately.
While I agree with you on the original point, I don't think McCord was a bad prospect. I think he might look pretty good at Cuse this year.
47. QB Penix (IMO he’ll be there, injury red flags are serious)
It is absolutely insane that there are people who actively want the Giants to draft Penix at 6. Not sure who is worse, those or the ones who want to give up next years #1 in a trade up for McCarthy…
I would be just fine with Nix or Penix and a top WR
I would be just fine with Nix or Penix and a top WR
I don't think anyone is saying unequivocally that Penix or Nix can't be good pros or even better than the others. Each has good skills to support.
For me, I prefer to invest and gamble a high first with the prospect with the most tools. And succeed or fail from there.
I'm just not a subscriber to this notion that a first rounder is a first rounder regardless if it's slot 1 or 32.
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I can not make any logical case why Nix and Penix won't be better in the Pros than Maye and JJ. It seems people have a preference for some reason, and just grab the datapoints that they think support it.
I would be just fine with Nix or Penix and a top WR
I don't think anyone is saying unequivocally that Penix or Nix can't be good pros or even better than the others. Each has good skills to support.
For me, I prefer to invest and gamble a high first with the prospect with the most tools. And succeed or fail from there.
I'm just not a subscriber to this notion that a first rounder is a first rounder regardless if it's slot 1 or 32.
Maye seems like the least talented QB throwing. He has good traits, yes. He has a canon arm, so does McCarthy, so does Penix. Both are more accurate.
I need convincing with Maye...
The biggest position of need is the offensive line, which gave up 85 sacks last year and was ranked very bad in run blocking as well. They have the chance to get the top offensive lineman in Alt.
Neal after two years of showing nothing is not going to the Pro Bowl any time soon at guard or otherwise. The team's record on building the line from free agents is lousy.
At best the Giants might have a mid-level line next season, if everything goes right. They have the chance to get the top O-Lineman in the draft and field an elite, not just a decent, offensive line. This makes all the other players look good. How much harder is it to complete a pass within two or three seconds versus five or six. Or even getting to stand "forever" in the pocket waiting.
In another fifteen or twenty years you'll understand. Who are the following: Stephen Baker, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram. The Giants won two NFL top 50 games with these. And a running back in his 12th NFL season who had averaged 3.5 yards per carry that season with a long gain of 28 yards.
It's the blockers who enable the offense. Really.
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In comment 16452831 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16452812 UberAlias said:
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Your bar is set at "anyone but Jones" so that's not surprising.
My bar is set at "we need someone better than Jones", so it's not surprising that 6 prospects in this draft meet that criteria.
Better than Jones does not justify using the 6th overall pick. You use the 6th overall pick because you believe you have a franchise player who you will want to give the 5th year option to if their career develops as expected. If you do not think someone will eventually be worth the 5th year option you select them on Day 2.
How are we going to know if Nabers is worth a fifth year option when his production has been poor for three years?
The biggest position of need is the offensive line, which gave up 85 sacks last year and was ranked very bad in run blocking as well. They have the chance to get the top offensive lineman in Alt.
Neal after two years of showing nothing is not going to the Pro Bowl any time soon at guard or otherwise. The team's record on building the line from free agents is lousy.
At best the Giants might have a mid-level line next season, if everything goes right. They have the chance to get the top O-Lineman in the draft and field an elite, not just a decent, offensive line. This makes all the other players look good. How much harder is it to complete a pass within two or three seconds versus five or six. Or even getting to stand "forever" in the pocket waiting.
In another fifteen or twenty years you'll understand. Who are the following: Stephen Baker, Stacy Robinson, Lionel Manuel, Odessa Turner, Mark Ingram. The Giants won two NFL top 50 games with these. And a running back in his 12th NFL season who had averaged 3.5 yards per carry that season with a long gain of 28 yards.
It's the blockers who enable the offense. Really.
It is the offensive line coach that makes the line. I'll wait to see how Bricillo does, but I am not taking any OT in round one. Round two or three for IOL is fine.
I am firmly convinced Bobby Johnson did horribly the last two year.
Maye seems like the least talented QB throwing. He has good traits, yes. He has a canon arm, so does McCarthy, so does Penix. Both are more accurate.
I need convincing with Maye...
It seems every year someone becomes the most polarizing player in the draft. Maye seems to be locking that title down as each day rolls on.
But I see it completely the other way. Maye is right there with CW as the most talented thrower in the draft. I would submit his struggles in 2023 were a derivative of Maye trying too hard to make plays. He has that gunslinger gene ala Favre.
And that needs to be harnessed under the tutelage of better coaching. I would trust Daboll to rein that in and re-wire Maye.
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there is no need to draft a qb and set this franchise back 5 years! There are way too many holes to fill, qb is not one of them!
You serious Clark??
Better to be thought a fool than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
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Jack Stroud is a troll
If so, kind of disrespectful to Jack Stroud.
I thought it was disrespectful to trolls.
HARBAUGH:"The offensive line to me is important. If I asked you the question, what position group depends on no other position group to be good, but every other position group depends on them to be good -- what position group is that? Offensive line. They're not relying on any other position group to be good, but yet every other position group relies on the offensive line to be good.
NFL Study: how important is an offensive line to success?
The NFL is a team sport, and while some positions are inherently more valuable, a great team needs a complete roster. I wanted to take a minute to look at the importance of the offensive line though. It is no secret that a good line will pay dividends for a team.
Looking over the study, one of the impacts of having a line is a team’s final record. When comparing the top 16 lines to the bottom 16 lines, the difference is only about a game. Looking at the top and bottom-5 lines though, there is almost a three-game spread. That is huge for a team, as a good line can and will win you more games.
What is more telling is the playoff success. Based on this data, if a team wants to make it to the playoffs, they need to have a top-12 offensive line. To make it to the Super Bowl, you need to be a top-11 line. To win the Super Bowl follows suit, as the average offensive line rank for every winner is around a top-12 line.
HARBAUGH:"The offensive line to me is important. If I asked you the question, what position group depends on no other position group to be good, but every other position group depends on them to be good -- what position group is that? Offensive line. They're not relying on any other position group to be good, but yet every other position group relies on the offensive line to be good.
NFL Study: how important is an offensive line to success?
The NFL is a team sport, and while some positions are inherently more valuable, a great team needs a complete roster. I wanted to take a minute to look at the importance of the offensive line though. It is no secret that a good line will pay dividends for a team.
Looking over the study, one of the impacts of having a line is a team’s final record. When comparing the top 16 lines to the bottom 16 lines, the difference is only about a game. Looking at the top and bottom-5 lines though, there is almost a three-game spread. That is huge for a team, as a good line can and will win you more games.
What is more telling is the playoff success. Based on this data, if a team wants to make it to the playoffs, they need to have a top-12 offensive line. To make it to the Super Bowl, you need to be a top-11 line. To win the Super Bowl follows suit, as the average offensive line rank for every winner is around a top-12 line.
I've been saying this for decades.
And I've been saying this for decades -- the defense has no better friend than a kick-ass offensive line that can control the rhythm and tempo of a game while the defense sits on the sideline cheering their offense on.
And I've been saying this for decades -- when you go into a hostile stadium and the home team is juiced, nothing will suck the energy out of the stadium more than an offense that plays keep away, moving the chains time and again.
Josh Allen was the third QB selected in 2018.
Lamar Jackson was the fifth QB selected in 2018.
Justin Herbert was the third QB selected in 2020.
Mitchell Trubisky was taken ahead of Mahomes
Sometimes who gets picked earlier isnt the best QB.