if you identify one, you do everything in your power to get that player. That does not mean you can't take a flier in the second round or later, but if you are doing that you don't believe he will be a franchise QB. If you identify one and you have the conviction of your belief behind it, you get that guy no matter what you need to do.
RE: there is no such thing is as value with franchise QB
if you identify one, you do everything in your power to get that player. That does not mean you can't take a flier in the second round or later, but if you are doing that you don't believe he will be a franchise QB. If you identify one and you have the conviction of your belief behind it, you get that guy no matter what you need to do.
If you assume Maye requires a trade up, does Maye = Penix + 2025 first round pick?
I don't think he does, but if Schoen feels that way he should go for it. I agree that there is no cost that's too great if you think the guy is a legit franchise QB.
RE: there is no such thing is as value with franchise QB
if you identify one, you do everything in your power to get that player. That does not mean you can't take a flier in the second round or later, but if you are doing that you don't believe he will be a franchise QB. If you identify one and you have the conviction of your belief behind it, you get that guy no matter what you need to do.
Except in NY. The media will call you biased or insane if it isn't the flavor of the week QB pick. Guaranteed.
btw, What's the problem with Chris Simms? He seems pretty well rounded. If you can call it a fault, it's that he doesn't do the "clickbait hate" thing, which makes his takes seem a bit more half hearted than others. His other fault is that he mostly sits next to that weasle-y geek Mike Florio. Vapid douchebag, he is.
Chris Simms covertly trying to get Maye to drop to 6
if you identify one, you do everything in your power to get that player. That does not mean you can't take a flier in the second round or later, but if you are doing that you don't believe he will be a franchise QB. If you identify one and you have the conviction of your belief behind it, you get that guy no matter what you need to do.
Exactly! If you "overdraft" Penix and he turns out to be the next Patrick Mahomes then he was overdrafted.
Penix is an excellent thrower and his medical are the difference between him being grouped worth the top guys and being QB5
I'd say age is a reason as well, but the durability issues are pretty concerning. Funny that maybe the most durable RB of all time, Frank Gore, had the same durability concerns coming out of college.
knows QBs... He is scaring me about Drake Maye, but I would still take him. He is still so young and I think he can only get better. I think Drake Maye issues are him worrying about making bad throws rather than just slinging it. You see it from his first year starting to his last where the hype seemed to get to him. His pro day looked the same he was so worried about making a bad throw he made some bad throws. Eventually I feel he will get out of his own head and then the skies the limit.
How is that... DJ coming out was said to have a weaker arm but pretty accurate. Maye is coming out with a big arm that has accuracy issues. They are nothing alike.
is Schultz talking about Penix (at the 2:15 mark) Could 5 quarterbacks going in the top-10 of the 2024 NFL Draft - ( New Window )
That's something new - Penix apparently killed it on the whiteboard during interviews.
Unlike Williams, Daniels, or Maye, Penix had a ton to gain or lose based on how he performed between his last game and now. People walked away from the Combine saying "wow", and they walked away from his Pro Day saying "wow" again.
He isn't going to be there at 47, and Nix isn't going to be either.
Like Klatt said: you don't have to imagine much when it comes to his NFL projection. Maybe it really is as simple as taking the best looking pocket passer who goes through his reads.
Simms has been pretty accurate over the years with QB’s
Ouch...
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Simms has been pretty accurate over the years with QB’s
Ouch...
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
And said “wow” - what a difference playing real defenses.
He played against a lot of top defenses this year. In fact, I think he played against more top 20 defenses in the country this year than any of the other QBs in this draft.
He had a bad game against Michigan. Can't dispute that. But to throw his whole body of work in the trash over one game is stupid.
It's the same as throwing all of CW's games in the trash because of the ND game, and CW was waaaayyyyyy worse against ND than Penix was against Michigan.
take a listen to The Athletic Football Show episode late last week with Dane Brugler and Nate Tice. They go in detail (75+ minutes) over the top six QB’s in this year’s draft. They are pretty specific in their criticisms of Daniels, Penix, Nix and Rattler.
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
The point was Simms can get it his rankings as wrong as other analysts like ranking Wilson ahead of Lawrence.
And said “wow” - what a difference playing real defenses.
He played against a lot of top defenses this year. In fact, I think he played against more top 20 defenses in the country this year than any of the other QBs in this draft.
Really? I wouldn't have thought that. Do you have those listed out?
Funny, but I heard the same thing about JJ McCarthy facing the best defenses too.
And said “wow” - what a difference playing real defenses.
Every player/prospect, especially QBs, lay a few eggs along the way.
Orlavsky, interestingly enough, was killing CW today on his performance against ND this year. Oddly enough, Williams killed ND in 2022 against the same ND DC, Al Golden, with four total TDs.
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
The point was Simms can get it his rankings as wrong as other analysts like ranking Wilson ahead of Lawrence.
Of course he can. No one is perfect and QB is the hardest to figure out. Saying that he has been one of the better QB guys out there.
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
The point was Simms can get it his rankings as wrong as other analysts like ranking Wilson ahead of Lawrence.
To be fair, Wilson failed because of the one thing an analyst like Simms has no access to - what's between the ears. As far as Simms could tell, Wilson had the tools - and that part was correct.
I wouldn’t draft him before the 3rd round. Knee and shoulder injuries before you get to the NFL isnt a bet I would make. The Giants are one of the most injured teams every year and he comes with the major injury red flags. To me it doesn’t matter the talent, the injury risk is too high. He has already separated his left throwing shoulder. Usually once you separate a shoulder it happens easier the next time.
The Giants won't be selecting a quarterback at 6 overall who has 2 ACL injuries and struggled mightily the last time he faced a quality college defense
Not saying they're similar prospects - I see more Herbert than Allen. But same criticism.
+1
I don't think he does, but if Schoen feels that way he should go for it. I agree that there is no cost that's too great if you think the guy is a legit franchise QB.
Except in NY. The media will call you biased or insane if it isn't the flavor of the week QB pick. Guaranteed.
btw, What's the problem with Chris Simms? He seems pretty well rounded. If you can call it a fault, it's that he doesn't do the "clickbait hate" thing, which makes his takes seem a bit more half hearted than others. His other fault is that he mostly sits next to that weasle-y geek Mike Florio. Vapid douchebag, he is.
Thanks Chris!
Exactly! If you "overdraft" Penix and he turns out to be the next Patrick Mahomes then he was overdrafted.
I'd say age is a reason as well, but the durability issues are pretty concerning. Funny that maybe the most durable RB of all time, Frank Gore, had the same durability concerns coming out of college.
;)
Brock Bowers & Michael Penix Jr. in Joel Klatt’s ‘plant the flag’ players | Joel Klatt Show - ( New Window )
Could 5 quarterbacks going in the top-10 of the 2024 NFL Draft - ( New Window )
How is that... DJ coming out was said to have a weaker arm but pretty accurate. Maye is coming out with a big arm that has accuracy issues. They are nothing alike.
It seems like the delivery changed. His wind-up is shorter and the ball seems to jump out of his hand more in 2023.
My imagination?
It seems like the delivery changed. His wind-up is shorter and the ball seems to jump out of his hand more in 2023.
My imagination?
That takes quite an imagination to get there.
Quote:
Simms has been pretty accurate over the years with QB’s
Ouch...
That's something new - Penix apparently killed it on the whiteboard during interviews.
Unlike Williams, Daniels, or Maye, Penix had a ton to gain or lose based on how he performed between his last game and now. People walked away from the Combine saying "wow", and they walked away from his Pro Day saying "wow" again.
He isn't going to be there at 47, and Nix isn't going to be either.
Like Klatt said: you don't have to imagine much when it comes to his NFL projection. Maybe it really is as simple as taking the best looking pocket passer who goes through his reads.
Quote:
In comment 16452937 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
Simms has been pretty accurate over the years with QB’s
Ouch...
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
I hope you watched Williams against Notre Dame and Maye against Clemson and said the same thing.
Quote:
In comment 16453021 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16452937 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
Simms has been pretty accurate over the years with QB’s
Ouch...
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
He played against a lot of top defenses this year. In fact, I think he played against more top 20 defenses in the country this year than any of the other QBs in this draft.
He had a bad game against Michigan. Can't dispute that. But to throw his whole body of work in the trash over one game is stupid.
It's the same as throwing all of CW's games in the trash because of the ND game, and CW was waaaayyyyyy worse against ND than Penix was against Michigan.
JJ McCarthy in that same game: 10/18 140yards 55.6% 0TDs 0INTs
Good idea making all of your decision on a single data point when there are lots more data points.
I watched JJM play Bowling Green this year and put up a 14 QBR. Looked like it could have been the first time he had played football.
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
Quote:
And said “wow” - what a difference playing real defenses.
JJ McCarthy in that same game: 10/18 140yards 55.6% 0TDs 0INTs
You mean the biggest game of his career against a weak Pac-12 defense?
Oh yeah...he won...so he is a winner. Stop all other thoughts right there!
Quote:
In comment 16453051 Amtoft said:
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
The point was Simms can get it his rankings as wrong as other analysts like ranking Wilson ahead of Lawrence.
Quote:
And said “wow” - what a difference playing real defenses.
He played against a lot of top defenses this year. In fact, I think he played against more top 20 defenses in the country this year than any of the other QBs in this draft.
Really? I wouldn't have thought that. Do you have those listed out?
Funny, but I heard the same thing about JJ McCarthy facing the best defenses too.
With Penix. If it wasn’t for his injury past he’d be a top 3 QB
Every player/prospect, especially QBs, lay a few eggs along the way.
Orlavsky, interestingly enough, was killing CW today on his performance against ND this year. Oddly enough, Williams killed ND in 2022 against the same ND DC, Al Golden, with four total TDs.
Quote:
In comment 16453054 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 16453051 Amtoft said:
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
The point was Simms can get it his rankings as wrong as other analysts like ranking Wilson ahead of Lawrence.
Of course he can. No one is perfect and QB is the hardest to figure out. Saying that he has been one of the better QB guys out there.
Quote:
In comment 16453054 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 16453051 Amtoft said:
It isn't that ouch... That whole draft wasn't good. He also missed in 2022 where he said Matt Corral was the best, but again no QBs were that good.
He also had Patrick Mahomes as the drafts most special talent in 2017 when he hadn't started rankings.
He had the 2018 draft Lamar Jackson #1 and Josh Allen #2 when everyone had Sam Darnold #1 and Jackson #5
2019 he had Kyler Murray #1 and he has been, while he had Jones 6th.
2020 he had it Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Love 3, and then Tua 4.
He had CJ Stroud #1 last year.
Trevor Lawrence says hi.
Oh nice tell him hi back. Unfortunately if you are saying that the consensus super star QB who was expected to be a top QB in the league is anything other than average at best. Not sure what your point is.
The point was Simms can get it his rankings as wrong as other analysts like ranking Wilson ahead of Lawrence.
To be fair, Wilson failed because of the one thing an analyst like Simms has no access to - what's between the ears. As far as Simms could tell, Wilson had the tools - and that part was correct.
Hard pass for me.
Quote:
Simms has been pretty accurate over the years with QB’s
Saying Zach Wilson has the best arm wasn't a bad take, but saying he's the best QB was risky.
But I do recall he had him rated highly.
And the phrase top defenses and Pac 12 should never go together. Lol
Quote:
And said “wow” - what a difference playing real defenses.
JJ McCarthy in that same game: 10/18 140yards 55.6% 0TDs 0INTs
14 yards per completion and 0 turnovers? Penix did that - they would have won.