I've been watching a ton of pundits lately to get a feel for who will go where in the upcoming draft, and to hear their takes on the respective teams, including the Giants.
The general consensus nationally is that the Giants' roster stinks. Some even saying it is one of the very worst in the NFL.
The Giants currently approach the draft with only six picks, one of the lowest totals in the entire league.
That is not good.
Are we looking at this the wrong way? Yes, the Giants need a QB. They need a #1 WR. But they need a lot of things in a draft that is going to be very strong in the 1-4 round range.
Perhaps the Giants should trade down. And then trade down again... and maybe again.
If they go this route then BPA and make sure you hit the fronts.
I don't see this franchise getting to the really big games again until they build the fronts to the standards they were during the championship years as the foundation.
Unfortunately you never know until they show up in your building. With that being said, Patterson has been in the building for 2 years, has been outstanding and I'd love for our pass rushers to spend some time with him this offseason.
One mistake to not continue repeating is to draft and build as if the roster is ready to win. It needs talent all over, including a number of premium positions (QB, WR, CB) and depth all over the place. Don't overthink it and react too cutely.
So getting an QB - hopefully with NFL quality pocket skills - will be one step towards fixing the franchises long standing black hole in the OL.
So getting an QB - hopefully with NFL quality pocket skills - will be one step towards fixing the franchises long standing black hole in the OL.
Yes. This is exactly what I have been saying for years. Yes, the offensive line sucked. Yes, Jones sucked. Both can be true at the same time. It's the same as the David Carr sack issue. Again, Houston's OL was not good, but I remember when Carr came here, watching him in preseason, thinking to myself "Well no wonder this guy got sacked so much, he doesn't get rid of the ball." Joe Burrow got sacked 9 times against the Titans in the playoffs a few years ago, and still found a way to win the game. Eli got hammered in SF in the '11 NFC Championship game, still carried the team. Great QB's are able to operate in the face of pressure and at least keep their teams afloat. Jones under pressure collapses and the offense becomes non-functional.
I could live with getting a Dallas Turner if we are not going QB in rd 1 - and the FO feels that they can't get a QB value there that they can work with because - for argument's sake their 3(or 4) top of first round rated QBs are already off the board, and the cost of moving up was ridiculous because of competition with Minnesota and Denver; strengthening the defense is another way to go to bridge the gap the Giants have,
... but this doesn't vitiate just how bad things are at QB --
I guess another approach would be to swap/trade QBs, DJ for another QB that needs a change of scenery, or to draft one in the second or third round, but the bigger harbinger of hope is to draft a new one in the first round that grades out well for that position.
Going WR and the current staff -- just doesn't do it for me I'm sorry to say. Remember when we had OBJ? how did that work out with a wonky O line and Eli on the downward arc? If we are right and Jones is a what we think he is - a premium WR is not going to change that. Heck Jones had a premium WR last season in Waller and it didn't help him.
I keep going back to the difference between the way Jones played, and the backups played last season. The backups played with a heck of a lot of more spirit that Jones did. He seemingly was overwhelmed by the circumstances he was facing - with the exception of the second half at Arizona - but we've seen far too few of those moments from Jones over a five year period.
Even when he runs I find myself holding my breath - he's fast but not fluid in that department - he'e learned to go down which helps somewhat -- but he also forgets to do that too - I just see a train wreck waiting to happen there -- and he does not inspire confidence that we can expect better as I see it.
Sorry to make this about Jones -- but it is about Jones.
I could live with getting a Dallas Turner if we are not going QB in rd 1 - and the FO feels that they can't get a QB value there that they can work with because - for argument's sake their 3(or 4) top of first round rated QBs are already off the board, and the cost of moving up was ridiculous because of competition with Minnesota and Denver; strengthening the defense is another way to go to bridge the gap the Giants have,
... but this doesn't vitiate just how bad things are at QB --
I guess another approach would be to swap/trade QBs, DJ for another QB that needs a change of scenery, or to draft one in the second or third round, but the bigger harbinger of hope is to draft a new one in the first round that grades out well for that position.
Going WR and the current staff -- just doesn't do it for me I'm sorry to say. Remember when we had OBJ? how did that work out with a wonky O line and Eli on the downward arc? If we are right and Jones is a what we think he is - a premium WR is not going to change that. Heck Jones had a premium WR last season in Waller and it didn't help him.
I keep going back to the difference between the way Jones played, and the backups played last season. The backups played with a heck of a lot of more spirit that Jones did. He seemingly was overwhelmed by the circumstances he was facing - with the exception of the second half at Arizona - but we've seen far too few of those moments from Jones over a five year period.
Even when he runs I find myself holding my breath - he's fast but not fluid in that department - he'e learned to go down which helps somewhat -- but he also forgets to do that too - I just see a train wreck waiting to happen there -- and he does not inspire confidence that we can expect better as I see it.
Sorry to make this about Jones -- but it is about Jones.
Ok … so what would you do if you were Schabs?
How many wins does this team have with a +0 ratio? Does it have any?
You are so right. How can any fan be so blind? Our run defense was spectacular. And our tackling in the beginning of the year Ooh-la-la! *Chef's kiss*. Our OL was definitely really REALLY good too. Especially when Thomas went down and Ezeudu was randomly placed at LT. Good times.
/SARCASM
#HOLYSHITBALLSBATMAN
My ideal yet realistic situation is trading up with AZ for a 2025 2nd and 3rd to take Maye or JJM. Sure if they feel true conviction in a guy at 3 and they feel strongly he will be taken before 4, then go ahead and give the king's ransom. Although a trade to 4 would be much less painful for future draft capital.
Yes, keeping that pick 47 in any trade up will be crucial. I don't see how it's possible in trade up to 3 though.
Xavier Leggette, Troy Franklin, Keon Coleman, Adonai Mitchell whether at 47 or via trade up would be great. I think Leggette has a good chance to be there at 47. If Schoen hits on QB rd1 and WR rd2 everything will turn around 100%.
Similar to how Accorsi insisted on keeping the rd2 pick that became Snee in the Eli trade, Schoen needs to keep that pick 47 if he trades up for a QB as there could be rd1 graded WRs at 47 or via slight trade up.
I agree with this as well.
Let the draft come to you Joe!
2) Thus far, Schoen has not proven to be a particularly impressive/above average drafter. I'd prefer we stay put at our picks and lean to consensus more this year.
Bonus problem - the roster is full of meh players. We need blue chippers and playmakers. It will take years, yes, but we can't just keep accumulating a bunch of mediocre talent.
2) Thus far, Schoen has not proven to be a particularly impressive/above average drafter. I'd prefer we stay put at our picks and lean to consensus more this year.
Bonus problem - the roster is full of meh players. We need blue chippers and playmakers. It will take years, yes, but we can't just keep accumulating a bunch of mediocre talent.
Is the first part true? It looks like a lot of good players should be available in rounds 3 and 4.
Quote:
1) This is not a deep draft class. There is a major talent drop off after round 2. That's not just my opinion, it's pretty widely shared in draft media and quotes from scouts.
2) Thus far, Schoen has not proven to be a particularly impressive/above average drafter. I'd prefer we stay put at our picks and lean to consensus more this year.
Bonus problem - the roster is full of meh players. We need blue chippers and playmakers. It will take years, yes, but we can't just keep accumulating a bunch of mediocre talent.
Is the first part true? It looks like a lot of good players should be available in rounds 3 and 4.
It depends on the position. Edge Rusher looks very top heavy as well as at CB. OL and WR, on the other hand, look very deep. That being said, Round 5 and later looks bad all around.
2) Thus far, Schoen has not proven to be a particularly impressive/above average drafter. I'd prefer we stay put at our picks and lean to consensus more this year.
Bonus problem - the roster is full of meh players. We need blue chippers and playmakers. It will take years, yes, but we can't just keep accumulating a bunch of mediocre talent.
Wasn't Neal a consensus pick?
Go for the highest impact and highest ceilings on board. A few can carry a team.
Although QB1 has just got to be better otherwise a few impact players won’t be enough.
Just a blow to be sitting there back in early 2022 with two Top 7 picks and could have weened themselves off of Jones that season. However, with a weak QB draft we go with Thibs and Neal and as fortunes go neither looks to be very impactful. And then the franchise makes a huge error in extending Jones.
That’s why the Giants Suck.
PFF rated KT #88th overall for Edge Defenders in 2023, 72nd as a pass rusher.
Burns, btw, was 29th as a pass rusher.
If we can't get a QB, I am all for trading down for (1) OL or (2) corner. OL preferred. This is such a terrific class for OL prospects.
Quote:
watching Brett Kollman. He was even talking about Dallas Turner because KT's win rate as a pass rusher is terrible. He and the guy he was talking to don't think enough has been done on the OL. There was talk of the need to replace Waller. He doesn't think much of Flott (interestingly, he still thinks Hawkins has a chance).
PFF rated KT #88th overall for Edge Defenders in 2023, 72nd as a pass rusher.
Burns, btw, was 29th as a pass rusher.
If we can't get a QB, I am all for trading down for (1) OL or (2) corner. OL preferred. This is such a terrific class for OL prospects.
I agree BW. Although look at what happened with Neal. Supposed to be a sure thing. I just don't trust any draft rankings anymore on any position... lol
Similar to how Accorsi insisted on keeping the rd2 pick that became Snee in the Eli trade, Schoen needs to keep that pick 47 if he trades up for a QB as there could be rd1 graded WRs at 47 or via slight trade up.
My understanding of that trade was that the sticking point was that SD wanted Osi, and Accrosi would not give him up. Never heard that the 2nd round pick was a sticking point.
1. the draft is NOT about plugging holes
2. QB is one of the positions that they need to upgrade, AND its the most difficult to fill. They have their best shot this year.
3. There are ways to "fill holes" besides the draft. The draft is the BEST place to get cost controlled, difference makers.
Get the QB!! if it means you end up with only 4 picks and he ends up the Home Run, nobody will care you gave up draft capital.
The roster is still, at best, mediocre. BUT, as listed above, you can identify around 10 players who are a core.
When Schoen took over, you had AT and Dex. That was it.
So the roster IS improving, just not as quickly as we fans would like. Better player development would help.
I agree with this. Young QB is priority one. WR is priority 2.
JS needs to figure out how to get both. If we end up with 4 picks so be it.
On offense - Hyatt, Robinson, and now we have 2 TEs who can actually block. Need another wr, maybe 2
OL: They keep tinkering. I think this offseason gives me hope they have finally resolved it - with some solid veteran pick-ups.
Need QB and RB.
Defense - Have talent on 3 levels - DL, LB - strength of the unit and one solid corner. Would like to see a bookend to Banks.
I think pairing Burns with Thibs will make a huge difference . Wonder if new DC likes the DL (tackles we have)
Quote:
with a QB and WR in a deep draft for both positions. That's two big wins.
Yes, keeping that pick 47 in any trade up will be crucial. I don't see how it's possible in trade up to 3 though.
Xavier Leggette, Troy Franklin, Keon Coleman, Adonai Mitchell whether at 47 or via trade up would be great. I think Leggette has a good chance to be there at 47. If Schoen hits on QB rd1 and WR rd2 everything will turn around 100%.
Similar to how Accorsi insisted on keeping the rd2 pick that became Snee in the Eli trade, Schoen needs to keep that pick 47 if he trades up for a QB as there could be rd1 graded WRs at 47 or via slight trade up.
This 100%
I agree BW. Although look at what happened with Neal. Supposed to be a sure thing. I just don't trust any draft rankings anymore on any position... lol
I get it. But, as you know, there is always the other side of the coin.
While Neal looks like he is close to permanent residency at the Bust Hotel, AT, the other high OL selection, is an absolute stud get.
I want to say I saw a study a few years ago that the position with the best hit rate in round one is OL. And I think hit rate was defined as a starter who graded out as average or >.
We are paying him huge money and our window isn't open yet. He's more of a 'last piece' for a team that thinks they are going to contend.
Absolutely agree!!
We are paying him huge money and our window isn't open yet. He's more of a 'last piece' for a team that thinks they are going to contend.
He isn't a last piece for a contender guy due to his age. He is a foundational, building block type of player. If we get a good QB in the draft, then our window starts next year. All the contracts Schoen has given reflects this. He is putting money more heavily on the books for after DJ's cap load is lightened.
Give me a Slater or Parsons over Toney/Neal scraps
And that's when Gentlemen was the GM. Don't be so obtuse
I tend to prefer making the pick at #6 - you should get a blue chip player at a premium position. Not only is this roster not deep at all, but it lacks front end talent and playmakers.
I could live with getting a Dallas Turner if we are not going QB in rd 1 - and the FO feels that they can't get a QB value there that they can work with because - for argument's sake their 3(or 4) top of first round rated QBs are already off the board, and the cost of moving up was ridiculous because of competition with Minnesota and Denver; strengthening the defense is another way to go to bridge the gap the Giants have,
... but this doesn't vitiate just how bad things are at QB --
I guess another approach would be to swap/trade QBs, DJ for another QB that needs a change of scenery, or to draft one in the second or third round, but the bigger harbinger of hope is to draft a new one in the first round that grades out well for that position.
Going WR and the current staff -- just doesn't do it for me I'm sorry to say. Remember when we had OBJ? how did that work out with a wonky O line and Eli on the downward arc? If we are right and Jones is a what we think he is - a premium WR is not going to change that. Heck Jones had a premium WR last season in Waller and it didn't help him.
I keep going back to the difference between the way Jones played, and the backups played last season. The backups played with a heck of a lot of more spirit that Jones did. He seemingly was overwhelmed by the circumstances he was facing - with the exception of the second half at Arizona - but we've seen far too few of those moments from Jones over a five year period.
Even when he runs I find myself holding my breath - he's fast but not fluid in that department - he'e learned to go down which helps somewhat -- but he also forgets to do that too - I just see a train wreck waiting to happen there -- and he does not inspire confidence that we can expect better as I see it.
Sorry to make this about Jones -- but it is about Jones.
And JS needs to use the Lions as an example of roster building
We are paying him huge money and our window isn't open yet. He's more of a 'last piece' for a team that thinks they are going to contend.
Maybe Burns becomes another Joe Schoen mistake.
I have done a ton of mocks where I traded down a lot. I like the results of those drafts better than the results where I trade up (I almost never try to do that on the simulator) or stand pat. You just have to let go of getting a top prospect at a premium position. If you're ok skipping the top QBs, Edge Rushers, Cornerbacks and Offensive Tackles, it's better. You can accumulate players this year and picks for next year.
But it takes a strong stomach to do that...
Quote:
why did we trade for Burns?
We are paying him huge money and our window isn't open yet. He's more of a 'last piece' for a team that thinks they are going to contend.
Maybe Burns becomes another Joe Schoen mistake.
Let's hope not. If it is, it would be a fatal mistake, in my opinion. Inexcusable. However, I don't think it will be. He got Okereke right, so that's something, and as we say often, you can never have enough pass-rushers.
As for our window, who's to say how long it will stay closed? Maybe we can open it a little faster than you think, maybe not. Who knows? But getting more talent is never a bad thing, no matter what your prospects are, and without question the Giants need more talent, on both sides of the ball. Their roster has some bright spots, but not nearly enough.
Why did we re-sign dexter lawrence?
Quote:
In comment 16455146 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
why did we trade for Burns?
We are paying him huge money and our window isn't open yet. He's more of a 'last piece' for a team that thinks they are going to contend.
Maybe Burns becomes another Joe Schoen mistake.
Let's hope not. If it is, it would be a fatal mistake, in my opinion. Inexcusable. However, I don't think it will be. He got Okereke right, so that's something, and as we say often, you can never have enough pass-rushers.
As for our window, who's to say how long it will stay closed? Maybe we can open it a little faster than you think, maybe not. Who knows? But getting more talent is never a bad thing, no matter what your prospects are, and without question the Giants need more talent, on both sides of the ball. Their roster has some bright spots, but not nearly enough.
I agree with everything you say.
From a “talent” perspective I do not expect Brian Burns to be a mistake. My perspective is that he could become a “mistake” if the Giants do not improve their overall roster in the next couple of years.
You may remember the name John Mendenhall — a wonderful nose tackle whose talent went right down the drain with a terrible franchise that failed to put together a competitive roster for years. That is my concern for Brian Burns.
Great teams have just a few “super-stars” but they have several above average starters. That’s what I’m worried about most! There is a dearth of above-average starters on the Giants. Not to mention that — right now — they do not possess a single, solitary offensive player that scares defenses.
if schoen's regime cant draft and develop then they aren't going to last long no matter what else happens.
the good news (or bad news) is that biggest part of that is a lot of guys already here likely to play a lot of snaps/starts this year - thibs, neal, wandale, mcfadden, flott, belton, hyatt, jms, banks, bellinger, mccloud, pinnock, etc.
a little perspective to give some hope. ahead of 2007:
Tuck and Jacobs had 1 career start combined.
Diehl hadn't played 1 rep at left tackle.
Webster was considered a total bust.
Seubert hadnt started full time since 2002.
Kiwanuka was moving to LB. Reggie Torbor was his backup.
James Butler also only had 1 career start.
Ross, Smith, Boss, Bradshaw, Johnson all obviously rookies.
i think Hedgecock was an in-season waivers claim.
forgetting what anyone thought of eli entering that year, that list is half of what became super bowl starters entering the season as major unknowns.
none of us can easily predict what will or wont happen with the young players entering their 1st/2nd/3rd seasons next year, only that a lot of them have gotten a lot of reps already and that trend will continue especially with whoever they pick 6th/47th. that group is largely who this regime will sink or swim with.