at 6. And I m getting more convinced that's the right choice. Ask me tomorrow and I might feel different but these last few analysis I ve listened too really make me concerned of a couple of these QBs and the cost to move up for them.
with the we need a DT on Day two... Ideal draft for me is a top 4 QB in round 1, A stud WR round 2, and a DT in round 3. We can then worry about CB, Safety, RB, OL, etc.
Amen to that! I just invested 90 minutes into the Dane Brugler YouTube. Not going to spend another 90 minutes on another video.
FYI, this gets into a lot of non-draft stuff too.
For example, although Schmeelk hasn't talked to Bowen yet, he says too many assume Bowen's defense is a 3-4. Said he ran more a wide-9, 4-3 in Tennessee. Schmeelk thinks Burns and KT will be the "defensive ends" in this front.
Amen to that! I just invested 90 minutes into the Dane Brugler YouTube. Not going to spend another 90 minutes on another video.
FYI, this gets into a lot of non-draft stuff too.
For example, although Schmeelk hasn't talked to Bowen yet, he says too many assume Bowen's defense is a 3-4. Said he ran more a wide-9, 4-3 in Tennessee. Schmeelk thinks Burns and KT will be the "defensive ends" in this front.
That is how I see our Def which is why I want a DT on day 2... Newton, Murphy, Orhororo, Maason Smith, Jenkins, Hall, Wingo, etc so many good ones that should be there.
"Jones was a better player and prospect coming out of college than Nix or Penix."
Oof.
I can't take anyone seriously that thinks that. Penix is probably better than him right now.
I think Schmeelk may be right- Nix and Pennix are not first round guys. I hope NY doesn’t do another Daniel Jonses and take one of those two plus McCarthy at 6. I don’t see any of those 3 being an upgrade big enough that a stud WR can be.
was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Based on physical ability and health.
Penix not only has major health concerns, but he doesn't play to his athleticism (he doesn't move like Jones does in games) and has some major warts (doesn't attack the middle of the field, doesn't respond well to pressure).
was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Count me among the people confused by that statement. Jones was nowhere near as productive a passer as Penix coming out. What is the foundation for the argument that he'd go higher?
Even in 2018, Jones was pure projection-what he "could be" with coaching. Penix actually demonstrated it.
was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Count me among the people confused by that statement. Jones was nowhere near as productive a passer as Penix coming out. What is the foundation for the argument that he'd go higher?
Even in 2018, Jones was pure projection-what he "could be" with coaching. Penix actually demonstrated it.
penis has two acls....and hes 24 going on 25...
daniel had a clean bill of health and was 22.
was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Count me among the people confused by that statement. Jones was nowhere near as productive a passer as Penix coming out. What is the foundation for the argument that he'd go higher?
Even in 2018, Jones was pure projection-what he "could be" with coaching. Penix actually demonstrated it.
penis has two acls....and hes 24 going on 25...
daniel had a clean bill of health and was 22.
This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Penix routinely makes throws that Jones could only dream of. He has special arm talent and given how well he tested athletically, I'm pretty confident (as long as Dave Gettleman isn't a GM of one of the teams) that Penix would go before Jones if he were in the 2019 class. Based on recent reporting from reliable reporters (ie Rapoport), Penix is likely to go much higher than much of the public seems to think. If he indeed does go in the top half of the first round, in a great QB draft talent-wise that would heavily suggest that in a terrible QB class he'd go much higher.
& he looked like Eli & was a Southern dude too. I'm not kidding when I opine that I think the Cutcliffe + Eli like clone + Southern thing were huge factors in us taking him.
RE: the daniel jones market was real, he was going top 10-top 15.
& he looked like Eli & was a Southern dude too. I'm not kidding when I opine that I think the Cutcliffe + Eli like clone + Southern thing were huge factors in us taking him.
He wasn't talented (0 star walk on) and he wasn't productive in college.
whether any of us like it or not. Giants were not the only team after him. Let's face it, after 5 years everyone's opinion has changed(or should I say most agree), but you cannot sit here now, ex post facto, and be objective. There are many, many QBs that were 1st round talent and failed. It happens to most. Tmosterps and bw probably hated the pick from the get go (probably a lot didn't like it either). I know I didn't want him at 6, I wanted ER Josh Allen.
whether any of us like it or not. Giants were not the only team after him. Let's face it, after 5 years everyone's opinion has changed(or should I say most agree), but you cannot sit here now, ex post facto, and be objective. There are many, many QBs that were 1st round talent and failed. It happens to most. Tmosterps and bw probably hated the pick from the get go (probably a lot didn't like it either). I know I didn't want him at 6, I wanted ER Josh Allen.
Heavily overdrafted, but that happens often. The only thing I disagree with *heavily* is him being a better prospect than Penix. This is 100% opinion and supported by really nothing whatsoever.
Summary: Fourth year junior entry. A three year starter and two time team captain. Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often. However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some.
*I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
Penix has a lot to question... he had a great team around him in a conference with bad defenses, despite his athletic testing he doesn't move well, and teams have questioned his unwillingness to attack the middle of the field.
I'm starting to think we're overrating this QB class.
of draftniks. There’s a reason the Giants were a laughingstock on draft night after taking him at 6. Yes, QB’s in bad QB classes are often overdrafted, but Penix is a significantly better prospect and easily could’ve been the first QB taken that year.
Consider these quotes from coaches who faced Penix:
“His arm talent is as good as I’ve ever seen. He can throw every single ball on a rope. I just wanted to blitz him. I felt like he didn’t handle pressure as some others. We lived and died by the blitz, but he got his yards.”
“You watch them and there’s so much tape where you’re just blown away by all the throws he’s making into windows and with the touch he has. And he’s just so accurate on all these big throws. He also didn’t need much room to throw it. The people around him didn’t even faze him.”
“All the throws he makes are insane, but his ability to read coverage and manipulate pressures is high-level stuff.”
Nobody has ever raved about Jones in the same way.
Most NFL people clearly would not have. Most had Jones graded as a 2nd rounder. They mocked the Giants for picking him. McCarthy is loved by NFL people and rated much higher than the mock draft people. Everything Schmeelk says about QBs is colored by the fact that he refuses to admit the truth about Jones. He spend a solid three minutes making all sorts of excuses for Jones. It is ridiculous at this point.
of draftniks. There’s a reason the Giants were a laughingstock on draft night after taking him at 6. Yes, QB’s in bad QB classes are often overdrafted, but Penix is a significantly better prospect and easily could’ve been the first QB taken that year.
Consider these quotes from coaches who faced Penix:
“His arm talent is as good as I’ve ever seen. He can throw every single ball on a rope. I just wanted to blitz him. I felt like he didn’t handle pressure as some others. We lived and died by the blitz, but he got his yards.”
“You watch them and there’s so much tape where you’re just blown away by all the throws he’s making into windows and with the touch he has. And he’s just so accurate on all these big throws. He also didn’t need much room to throw it. The people around him didn’t even faze him.”
“All the throws he makes are insane, but his ability to read coverage and manipulate pressures is high-level stuff.”
Nobody has ever raved about Jones in the same way.
Jones was considered a legit first rounder.
Penix has been talked for months about being a 2nd rounder.
Only in the past week have we heard some speculate he may go higher.
Summary: Three-plus year starter from the SEC who was among the conference leaders in the big passing statistics each year despite multiple schematic and coaching changes. Lock’s special arm talent earned 2nd Team All SEC honors as a senior, the first time he completed over 60% of his passes as the program introduced more pro passing concepts to the offense. The upside with him is higher than any passer in the class, as he possesses the rare ability to flick to wrist and shoot the ball out of his hand deep downfield with no wind up or warning. Lock has several plays on tape that scream top tier first round pick but the lack of consistency when it comes to accuracy and mechanics are alarming. The two are usually tied together, thus the notion that he can hide the issues with time to work on the details of the position is out there. It’s hard to imagine, however, after 1,200 passing attempts in college and seeing where he ended mechanically that all of the sudden those issues will disappear. The margin between his floor and ceiling is as wide as anyone.
*I remember watching him for the first time in the fall of 2017 and I immediately thought Matt Stafford 2.0. The release, quick and easy zip on his balls, and athletic base were attractive but I can’t get past the inconsistencies across the board. There are so many easy throws that he missed, so many times where his mechanics were a train wreck. Sure, you can say these things will change once he gets into an NFL coaching environment but I am of the thought that after the amount of experience he’s had and the mistakes he is still making, we will see more of the same in the NFL. That, to me, is not a franchise QB.
Penix has a lot to question... he had a great team around him in a conference with bad defenses, despite his athletic testing he doesn't move well, and teams have questioned his unwillingness to attack the middle of the field.
I'm starting to think we're overrating this QB class.
When you get a minute check out the 15:22 mark of the video below. I don't understand where this pocket movement issue is coming from with Penix. I'll add again that he has the lowest pressure to sack ratio of any drafted QB since 2014, and that did not come at the expense of accuracy (i.e he wasn't chucking and ducking).
I'm not saying it's 100% certain that Penix will be a good pro. But I think he's taken a beating from evaluators, at times unfairly.
And in comparison to Jones, Penix had a million plays on his tape that Jones never made at Duke.
Penix was in first round mocks at numerous mocks over the months.
But that’s irrelevant to the point that Jones was overdrafted in a horrific QB class. A 5’10 qb drafted 1st overall. On the other hand, this is a great QB class. Oftentimes teams don’t mock guys like Penix or Nix in the first because of the notion that 6 QB’s won’t go in the first round. There’s no doubt in my mind Penix is a first round talent.
I've been quite open about the fact that I don't watch all of these guys play in college. It's why I thank the Lord for Sy. I saw Penix in the Championship Game and I came away unimpressed, but I know it is foolish to judge a player on one game (or a few games).
However, one thing I am good at is reviewing and analyzing what others who do this for a living have said. I can only tell you that the same criticisms of Penix come up.
Some people love him. Some people think he has serious holes in his game. I'm just conveying the the cons on him.
RE: RE: Sy was higher on Jones than the vast majority
Gettleman was instantly pilloried and mocked around the league for drafting Jones where he did. Even License Plate Guy, who defends anything they do, hated the pick. Jones was never a top talent. The Giants barely scouted him during the year. Gettleman only watched film of him after the Senior Bowl. He was a definite first round guy.
of draftniks. There’s a reason the Giants were a laughingstock on draft night after taking him at 6. Yes, QB’s in bad QB classes are often overdrafted, but Penix is a significantly better prospect and easily could’ve been the first QB taken that year.
Consider these quotes from coaches who faced Penix:
“His arm talent is as good as I’ve ever seen. He can throw every single ball on a rope. I just wanted to blitz him. I felt like he didn’t handle pressure as some others. We lived and died by the blitz, but he got his yards.”
“You watch them and there’s so much tape where you’re just blown away by all the throws he’s making into windows and with the touch he has. And he’s just so accurate on all these big throws. He also didn’t need much room to throw it. The people around him didn’t even faze him.”
“All the throws he makes are insane, but his ability to read coverage and manipulate pressures is high-level stuff.”
Nobody has ever raved about Jones in the same way.
Jones was considered a legit first rounder.
Penix has been talked for months about being a 2nd rounder.
Only in the past week have we heard some speculate he may go higher.
RE: Penix was in first round mocks at numerous mocks over the months.
But that’s irrelevant to the point that Jones was overdrafted in a horrific QB class. A 5’10 qb drafted 1st overall. On the other hand, this is a great QB class. Oftentimes teams don’t mock guys like Penix or Nix in the first because of the notion that 6 QB’s won’t go in the first round. There’s no doubt in my mind Penix is a first round talent.
Your personal feelings on both players are affecting your judgment of how Jones and Penix were viewed.
If you squint, you can almost make out a decent NFL QB. But both guys have fatal flaws. Lock is erratic and Jones cannot process the game quickly enough.
As has been discussed recently on BBI and other places, the tough part about QB is you are either a starter or a backup. I think both those guys are backups.
If you squint, you can almost make out a decent NFL QB. But both guys have fatal flaws. Lock is erratic and Jones cannot process the game quickly enough.
As has been discussed recently on BBI and other places, the tough part about QB is you are either a starter or a backup. I think both those guys are backups.
I'm on the couch right now, with a glass of wine, and showed my wife the first three QBs rated by Sy in the 2019 draft.
"The first one is dead. The second one is Jones. The third is our back-up."
If you squint, you can almost make out a decent NFL QB. But both guys have fatal flaws. Lock is erratic and Jones cannot process the game quickly enough.
As has been discussed recently on BBI and other places, the tough part about QB is you are either a starter or a backup. I think both those guys are backups.
I'm on the couch right now, with a glass of wine, and showed my wife the first three QBs rated by Sy in the 2019 draft.
"The first one is dead. The second one is Jones. The third is our back-up."
Her reaction was "Wow!"
There's still time to trade the 6th overall for Murray!
C'mon, you know how McCarthy was viewed just 30 days ago. He was a 2nd round QB because there was simply not enough to go on with him. And he's still largely a projection pick. If a team is going to take him in the top 10, it is not because of performance but the belief he can do more than what he has done.
RE: RE: RE: I wish I had the free time and attention span
Amen to that! I just invested 90 minutes into the Dane Brugler YouTube. Not going to spend another 90 minutes on another video.
FYI, this gets into a lot of non-draft stuff too.
For example, although Schmeelk hasn't talked to Bowen yet, he says too many assume Bowen's defense is a 3-4. Said he ran more a wide-9, 4-3 in Tennessee. Schmeelk thinks Burns and KT will be the "defensive ends" in this front.
I thought it was said that the Giants were going to be playing a 3-4 when Bowen was hired.
C'mon, you know how McCarthy was viewed just 30 days ago. He was a 2nd round QB because there was simply not enough to go on with him. And he's still largely a projection pick. If a team is going to take him in the top 10, it is not because of performance but the belief he can do more than what he has done.
The point is there are places to go with McCarthy to make a strong case for him (again, I don't). Jones required significantly more imagination.
McCarthy was highly sought after recruit (top 30-50 recruit, depending on the recruiting agency), won huge games with the Blue and Maize, and was coached by a highly accomplished NFL HC.
Jones impressed an NFL GM by the way he managed the huddle at the Senior Bowl.
This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
Four years where? He had 4 TDs before jetting off to the Pac 12 with 1st round prospects on his line and a trio of excellent receivers in college.
College stats are also hilarious. Figure BBI would have learned their lesson with Dwayne Haskins.
RE: RE: Penix was in first round mocks at numerous mocks over the months.
But that’s irrelevant to the point that Jones was overdrafted in a horrific QB class. A 5’10 qb drafted 1st overall. On the other hand, this is a great QB class. Oftentimes teams don’t mock guys like Penix or Nix in the first because of the notion that 6 QB’s won’t go in the first round. There’s no doubt in my mind Penix is a first round talent.
Your personal feelings on both players are affecting your judgment of how Jones and Penix were viewed.
I think you’re misremembering how Jones was viewed in the lead up to the draft. Very few considered him a first round talent. He was mostly mocked the way Penix has been throughout the process except initially Jones started out as a later pick. That was in a far weaker QB and overall draft class.
As far as JJ goes, Jones was talked about pre-draft the way JJ has, from the pro style offense and excellent coaching to having the necessary tools but more of a projection than what was shown on the field. The only difference is that McCarthy was a vastly superior recruit out of HS, won a ton of games and was more productive.
Some NFL people rank Jones as the No. 1 QB in the class. Others don't have him in the top five. Jones (6-5 1/8, 221) is polarizing for a variety of reasons, including his training under David Cutcliffe, who also coached Peyton and Eli Manning. Is he more equipped to play immediately because of his experience in a pro-style offense? Or has he been coached so well that he's already closer to his ceiling than the others? "He's probably got the highest IQ out of all of them, as far as what they ask him to do at the line of scrimmage," an AFC scout said. "It sounds like he has complete control. Yeah, he was trained by Cutcliffe, but it's more than just the Xs and Os. It's the details about being a quarterback -- the leadership, the preparation. He's got his own issues, like his deep-ball accuracy could be better. But he's playing with not a lot of talent around him."
In 36 college starts, Jones completed just 44 of 157 passes (28 percent) of 20-plus air yards, with 15 touchdowns and 11 interceptions, per Pro Football Focus. But drops and a general inability of his overmatched receivers to get open color the evaluation and lend context to Jones' career 59.9 percent completion rate. "They might not all be polished, but Haskins] had some great athletes out there," an NFC scouting director said. "[Daniel Jones is throwing to a bunch of guys that are going to be accountants in a year."
But don't tell me he wasn't regarded as a 1st round talent in 2019. He was. And he was discussed as such on this site.
That's the problem with QBs. FFS, look at the 2019 quarterback class.
Every prospect in every class is going to have doubts. The lesson from that class isn't not to try, but not to chase a lost cause.
Teams need to be drafting quarterbacks more often and giving them shorter leashes. If the Giants draft a guy now it will be important not to give him the Jones scholarship. Two years is the leash. After that it's ok to consider options.
In truth the Giants should be drafting two this year. One from the top six and one from the Rattler/Pratt/Milton group.
But don't tell me he wasn't regarded as a 1st round talent in 2019. He was. And he was discussed as such on this site.
That's the problem with QBs. FFS, look at the 2019 quarterback class.
Every prospect in every class is going to have doubts. The lesson from that class isn't not to try, but not to chase a lost cause.
Teams need to be drafting quarterbacks more often and giving them shorter leashes. If the Giants draft a guy now it will be important not to give him the Jones scholarship. Two years is the leash. After that it's ok to consider options.
In truth the Giants should be drafting two this year. One from the top six and one from the Rattler/Pratt/Milton group.
Two QBs? Where are they getting all these picks from, they only have 6.
This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
Four years where? He had 4 TDs before jetting off to the Pac 12 with 1st round prospects on his line and a trio of excellent receivers in college.
He did not.
Also,
You can't be arguing that he wasn't an incredibly productive college player, and a winning one. Come on now.
There's no scenario where anyone would argue this, and comparing resumes of the two players is laughable. What are we doing here.
The problem with Penix is his injuries, and some find his age to be a bit of a negative.
I'm merely pointing out how bad the NFL (and the media and fans) are at evaluating QBs.
Remember all of the Dwayne Haskins love? Jones sucks, but he's still playing.
I remember hating Haskins from the outset when he looked overweight at his pro day. That dislike was confirmed when it came out he was charging $50 a head for people attending his draft party, and at that party he said (on camera) that he'd win 7 Super Bowls. I couldn't believe he even got drafted.
I watched one of Big Blue Banter's videos on Bowen and combined with this video, I'm getting two different readings on the defense Bowen wants to run. On the one hand the front in Tennessee was a 3-4 with Denico Autry (5-Tech), Teair Tart (NT), and Jeffery Simmons (3-Tech), with Harold Landry as the primary LEO while the other front being posited is the Wide-9.
I remember hating Haskins from the outset when he looked overweight at his pro day. That dislike was confirmed when it came out he was charging $50 a head for people attending his draft party, and at that party he said (on camera) that he'd win 7 Super Bowls. I couldn't believe he even got drafted.
Do you know that Haskins story why he was drafted by WFT?
Jay Gruden didn't want him. But Snyder's son went to the Bullis School (Potomac, MD) and played football there. And so did Haskins. They became good friends.
Snyder got to know the Haskins family, followed Haskins at Ohio State and decided based on those local roots that Haskins would be great for WFT. Thus, the card was sent in with Haskins name on it...
This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
Four years where? He had 4 TDs before jetting off to the Pac 12 with 1st round prospects on his line and a trio of excellent receivers in college.
He did not.
Also,
You can't be arguing that he wasn't an incredibly productive college player, and a winning one. Come on now.
There's no scenario where anyone would argue this, and comparing resumes of the two players is laughable. What are we doing here.
The problem with Penix is his injuries, and some find his age to be a bit of a negative.
Where was he producing in Indiana?
I didn't say Jones was more productive at Duke but Penix is soon to be 24, has had knee and shoulder surgeries and has issues of his own (pressure, middle of the field).
I watched one of Big Blue Banter's videos on Bowen and combined with this video, I'm getting two different readings on the defense Bowen wants to run. On the one hand the front in Tennessee was a 3-4 with Denico Autry (5-Tech), Teair Tart (NT), and Jeffery Simmons (3-Tech), with Harold Landry as the primary LEO while the other front being posited is the Wide-9.
The brief info we have is he likes to employ mostly 4 man rushes and throws a variety of stunts and twists. Much less of a blitzer than we were so used to with Wink.
Burns, Thibodeaux and Dexter up front is a great start. Thibodeaux has to improve though.
I remember hating Haskins from the outset when he looked overweight at his pro day. That dislike was confirmed when it came out he was charging $50 a head for people attending his draft party, and at that party he said (on camera) that he'd win 7 Super Bowls. I couldn't believe he even got drafted.
Do you know that Haskins story why he was drafted by WFT?
Jay Gruden didn't want him. But Snyder's son went to the Bullis School (Potomac, MD) and played football there. And so did Haskins. They became good friends.
Snyder got to know the Haskins family, followed Haskins at Ohio State and decided based on those local roots that Haskins would be great for WFT. Thus, the card was sent in with Haskins name on it...
& he looked like Eli & was a Southern dude too. I'm not kidding when I opine that I think the Cutcliffe + Eli like clone + Southern thing were huge factors in us taking him.
this is so accurate and so laughably pathetic with regards to how the fucking GM thought.
BUT HES GOT THE DEMEANOR FOR NYC! HES JUST LIKE ELI!
yeah, other than being capable of playing the fucking QB position.
Was only a 1st round pick because that QB class was horrendous and that position is over drafted every year. He would not being over the top 6 this year
Nitpick Penix all you want but his injury history is the only reason he’s not in play for top 5. He was a far superior college player than Jones and a better prospect even with the injuries.
Was only a 1st round pick because that QB class was horrendous and that position is over drafted every year. He would not being over the top 6 this year
Nitpick Penix all you want but his injury history is the only reason he’s not in play for top 5. He was a far superior college player than Jones and a better prospect even with the injuries.
Sure, Penix's injury history is the major factor. But it exists.
And it's 2019 is not some outlier. Look at other recent QB classes. Look at the history of teams trading up into the top 10 for a QB. It's a nightmare.
This is the kind of thing that drives me nuts with fans in the draft. For some reason, you guys take it as a personal insult if the guy you like is critiqued or the guy you don't like is defended.
Unless you are related to these guys, why?
It's OK to say that Jones was considered a first round QB in 2019 and Penix wasn't considered a 1st round QB while at the same time preferring one over the other.
Jones was not a surprise 1st rounder. It was a surprise that he was taken at #6. Many pundits as of today still do not believe Penix should go in the first round.
But you are telling me that is incorrect. It's not.
of Giants fans wanted Haskins. And a ton of pundits felt the Giants should have drafted Haskins and some even implied the Giants were a racist organization for not selecting him.
I remember all of the Haskins threads. I remember the threads on his Pro Day when we debated if he was out of shape.
I also remember the year earlier, in 2018, all of the endless Sam Darnold versus Josh Rosen threads.
Bowen likes the three man fronts on early downs. I hope he continues to be good at stopping the run. I agree about getting another DT/5T.
The QB's are a little over rated but that usually happens. Different rules with the OL has inflated college QB/offensive production. I still think the Giants are going QB early unless they can't move up or the QB they like is taken.
Always interesting seeing the posters who take the most shots at Jones were the ones pushing for Willis at pick 5 or 7.
Always interesting seeing the posters who take the most shots at Jones were the ones pushing for Willis at pick 5 or 7.
What's interesting about it? Draft analysts like Sy rated Willis the highest rated quarterback in the 2022 draft. Sy rated both Jones and Willis an 80 grade in their respective drafts.
Jones has proven he's not durable and has fundamental flaws that keep him from demonstrating consistent success as a starter.
Willis has proven he has trouble throwing the ball at the NFL level, and will be a career backup or late developer like Tyrod Taylor.
If the Giants had let Jones go and drafted Willis, they'd be contemplating the same decision today: drafting a quarterback.
Two practical differences 1) they wouldn't have acquired Evan Neal 2) they wouldn't have paid Daniel Jones 82M.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my desire to draft Willis. Keep taking shots at QB until you have a capable one.
if given a true #1 WR. What concerns me is that DJ is one injury away from never playing football again. We absolutely have to consider drafting a quarterback but at what price?
Listening to many podcasts my take away is that Maye is the only QB that we should aggressively try to pursue. Otherwise giving up number one pick next year is too rich for my blood with the exception of Drake Maye. If he is gone or not attainable stay at six and get one of the top three wr. I would be thrilled with any of the group of MHJ, Ordunse, Nabers.
Really recommend this.
Sire, but think of how cool all of those merit badges will look on your uniform. :)
:-)
Oof.
Amen to that! I just invested 90 minutes into the Dane Brugler YouTube. Not going to spend another 90 minutes on another video.
Oof.
Absurd.
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but it's been tough during the scouting seasons.
Amen to that! I just invested 90 minutes into the Dane Brugler YouTube. Not going to spend another 90 minutes on another video.
FYI, this gets into a lot of non-draft stuff too.
For example, although Schmeelk hasn't talked to Bowen yet, he says too many assume Bowen's defense is a 3-4. Said he ran more a wide-9, 4-3 in Tennessee. Schmeelk thinks Burns and KT will be the "defensive ends" in this front.
Oof.
I can't take anyone seriously that thinks that. Penix is probably better than him right now.
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In comment 16457583 JonC said:
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but it's been tough during the scouting seasons.
Amen to that! I just invested 90 minutes into the Dane Brugler YouTube. Not going to spend another 90 minutes on another video.
FYI, this gets into a lot of non-draft stuff too.
For example, although Schmeelk hasn't talked to Bowen yet, he says too many assume Bowen's defense is a 3-4. Said he ran more a wide-9, 4-3 in Tennessee. Schmeelk thinks Burns and KT will be the "defensive ends" in this front.
That is how I see our Def which is why I want a DT on day 2... Newton, Murphy, Orhororo, Maason Smith, Jenkins, Hall, Wingo, etc so many good ones that should be there.
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"Jones was a better player and prospect coming out of college than Nix or Penix."
Oof.
I can't take anyone seriously that thinks that. Penix is probably better than him right now.
I think Schmeelk may be right- Nix and Pennix are not first round guys. I hope NY doesn’t do another Daniel Jonses and take one of those two plus McCarthy at 6. I don’t see any of those 3 being an upgrade big enough that a stud WR can be.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
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was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Based on physical ability and health.
Penix not only has major health concerns, but he doesn't play to his athleticism (he doesn't move like Jones does in games) and has some major warts (doesn't attack the middle of the field, doesn't respond well to pressure).
If McCarthy was in the Jones draft, I bet you a bunch of BBIers would have taken Jones over McCarthy.
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was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Count me among the people confused by that statement. Jones was nowhere near as productive a passer as Penix coming out. What is the foundation for the argument that he'd go higher?
Even in 2018, Jones was pure projection-what he "could be" with coaching. Penix actually demonstrated it.
4th round maybe.
If McCarthy was in the Jones draft, I bet you a bunch of BBIers would have taken Jones over McCarthy.
Sorry man, I don't see it.
JJM was a 5 star recruit who graduated from IMG Academy. Courted by big time D1 schools.
Jones was a barely recruited walk-on at Duke.
Jones' NFL career lived up to his pedigree.
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In comment 16457874 Eric from BBI said:
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was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Count me among the people confused by that statement. Jones was nowhere near as productive a passer as Penix coming out. What is the foundation for the argument that he'd go higher?
Even in 2018, Jones was pure projection-what he "could be" with coaching. Penix actually demonstrated it.
penis has two acls....and hes 24 going on 25...
daniel had a clean bill of health and was 22.
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In comment 16457914 RCPhoenix said:
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In comment 16457874 Eric from BBI said:
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was in this draft as a rookie, he'd probably go ahead of Penix and Nix.
Based on his performance at Duke? He shouldn't go before those two.
Anyone who rates Jones coming out of college as better than Penix is not worth listening to.
Count me among the people confused by that statement. Jones was nowhere near as productive a passer as Penix coming out. What is the foundation for the argument that he'd go higher?
Even in 2018, Jones was pure projection-what he "could be" with coaching. Penix actually demonstrated it.
penis has two acls....and hes 24 going on 25...
daniel had a clean bill of health and was 22.
This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
Oof.
Completely absurd statement.
Penix routinely makes throws that Jones could only dream of. He has special arm talent and given how well he tested athletically, I'm pretty confident (as long as Dave Gettleman isn't a GM of one of the teams) that Penix would go before Jones if he were in the 2019 class. Based on recent reporting from reliable reporters (ie Rapoport), Penix is likely to go much higher than much of the public seems to think. If he indeed does go in the top half of the first round, in a great QB draft talent-wise that would heavily suggest that in a terrible QB class he'd go much higher.
If McCarthy was in the Jones draft, I bet you a bunch of BBIers would have taken Jones over McCarthy.
Jones had a 6.2 career AY/A in college. That is pathetic.
For scale...
Williams 10.3
Daniels 9.5
Maye 9.0
McCarthy 9.4
Penix 8.4
Nix 8.5
Jones should have been a day 3 pick, at best. His saving grace was that he was coached by the same guy who coached Eli Manning.
Only to the worst GM in NFL history (Gettleman) and maybe Snyder.
Terrible company.
In his last interview, John Mara said Chris and his team would be done with their evaluations this week. So the draft board timeline is about right.
He wasn't talented (0 star walk on) and he wasn't productive in college.
Heavily overdrafted, but that happens often. The only thing I disagree with *heavily* is him being a better prospect than Penix. This is 100% opinion and supported by really nothing whatsoever.
But let's not pretend he wasn't a well-regarded prospect at the time.
If Jones was in this draft, he would go before Penix.
Grade: 80
Summary: Fourth year junior entry. A three year starter and two time team captain. Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often. However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some.
*I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.
But let's not pretend he wasn't a well-regarded prospect at the time.
If Jones was in this draft, he would go before Penix.
You might be right, but that would be insane. Jones's talent and production aren't in the same universe.
I'm starting to think we're overrating this QB class.
Consider these quotes from coaches who faced Penix:
“His arm talent is as good as I’ve ever seen. He can throw every single ball on a rope. I just wanted to blitz him. I felt like he didn’t handle pressure as some others. We lived and died by the blitz, but he got his yards.”
“You watch them and there’s so much tape where you’re just blown away by all the throws he’s making into windows and with the touch he has. And he’s just so accurate on all these big throws. He also didn’t need much room to throw it. The people around him didn’t even faze him.”
“All the throws he makes are insane, but his ability to read coverage and manipulate pressures is high-level stuff.”
Nobody has ever raved about Jones in the same way.
In comment 16457931 Eric from BBI said:
If McCarthy was in the Jones draft, I bet you a bunch of BBIers would have taken Jones over McCarthy.
Consider these quotes from coaches who faced Penix:
“His arm talent is as good as I’ve ever seen. He can throw every single ball on a rope. I just wanted to blitz him. I felt like he didn’t handle pressure as some others. We lived and died by the blitz, but he got his yards.”
“You watch them and there’s so much tape where you’re just blown away by all the throws he’s making into windows and with the touch he has. And he’s just so accurate on all these big throws. He also didn’t need much room to throw it. The people around him didn’t even faze him.”
“All the throws he makes are insane, but his ability to read coverage and manipulate pressures is high-level stuff.”
Nobody has ever raved about Jones in the same way.
Jones was considered a legit first rounder.
Penix has been talked for months about being a 2nd rounder.
Only in the past week have we heard some speculate he may go higher.
Grade: 77
Summary: Three-plus year starter from the SEC who was among the conference leaders in the big passing statistics each year despite multiple schematic and coaching changes. Lock’s special arm talent earned 2nd Team All SEC honors as a senior, the first time he completed over 60% of his passes as the program introduced more pro passing concepts to the offense. The upside with him is higher than any passer in the class, as he possesses the rare ability to flick to wrist and shoot the ball out of his hand deep downfield with no wind up or warning. Lock has several plays on tape that scream top tier first round pick but the lack of consistency when it comes to accuracy and mechanics are alarming. The two are usually tied together, thus the notion that he can hide the issues with time to work on the details of the position is out there. It’s hard to imagine, however, after 1,200 passing attempts in college and seeing where he ended mechanically that all of the sudden those issues will disappear. The margin between his floor and ceiling is as wide as anyone.
*I remember watching him for the first time in the fall of 2017 and I immediately thought Matt Stafford 2.0. The release, quick and easy zip on his balls, and athletic base were attractive but I can’t get past the inconsistencies across the board. There are so many easy throws that he missed, so many times where his mechanics were a train wreck. Sure, you can say these things will change once he gets into an NFL coaching environment but I am of the thought that after the amount of experience he’s had and the mistakes he is still making, we will see more of the same in the NFL. That, to me, is not a franchise QB.
I'm starting to think we're overrating this QB class.
When you get a minute check out the 15:22 mark of the video below. I don't understand where this pocket movement issue is coming from with Penix. I'll add again that he has the lowest pressure to sack ratio of any drafted QB since 2014, and that did not come at the expense of accuracy (i.e he wasn't chucking and ducking).
I'm not saying it's 100% certain that Penix will be a good pro. But I think he's taken a beating from evaluators, at times unfairly.
And in comparison to Jones, Penix had a million plays on his tape that Jones never made at Duke.
Link - ( New Window )
However, one thing I am good at is reviewing and analyzing what others who do this for a living have said. I can only tell you that the same criticisms of Penix come up.
Some people love him. Some people think he has serious holes in his game. I'm just conveying the the cons on him.
In comment 16458203 Eric from BBI said:
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of draftniks. There’s a reason the Giants were a laughingstock on draft night after taking him at 6. Yes, QB’s in bad QB classes are often overdrafted, but Penix is a significantly better prospect and easily could’ve been the first QB taken that year.
Consider these quotes from coaches who faced Penix:
“His arm talent is as good as I’ve ever seen. He can throw every single ball on a rope. I just wanted to blitz him. I felt like he didn’t handle pressure as some others. We lived and died by the blitz, but he got his yards.”
“You watch them and there’s so much tape where you’re just blown away by all the throws he’s making into windows and with the touch he has. And he’s just so accurate on all these big throws. He also didn’t need much room to throw it. The people around him didn’t even faze him.”
“All the throws he makes are insane, but his ability to read coverage and manipulate pressures is high-level stuff.”
Nobody has ever raved about Jones in the same way.
Jones was considered a legit first rounder.
Penix has been talked for months about being a 2nd rounder.
Only in the past week have we heard some speculate he may go higher.
Your personal feelings on both players are affecting your judgment of how Jones and Penix were viewed.
If the Giants took Penix at 6, they would be mocked too.
If you squint, you can almost make out a decent NFL QB. But both guys have fatal flaws. Lock is erratic and Jones cannot process the game quickly enough.
As has been discussed recently on BBI and other places, the tough part about QB is you are either a starter or a backup. I think both those guys are backups.
If you squint, you can almost make out a decent NFL QB. But both guys have fatal flaws. Lock is erratic and Jones cannot process the game quickly enough.
As has been discussed recently on BBI and other places, the tough part about QB is you are either a starter or a backup. I think both those guys are backups.
I'm on the couch right now, with a glass of wine, and showed my wife the first three QBs rated by Sy in the 2019 draft.
"The first one is dead. The second one is Jones. The third is our back-up."
Her reaction was "Wow!"
If you squint, you can almost make out a decent NFL QB. But both guys have fatal flaws. Lock is erratic and Jones cannot process the game quickly enough.
As has been discussed recently on BBI and other places, the tough part about QB is you are either a starter or a backup. I think both those guys are backups.
I'm on the couch right now, with a glass of wine, and showed my wife the first three QBs rated by Sy in the 2019 draft.
"The first one is dead. The second one is Jones. The third is our back-up."
Her reaction was "Wow!"
There's still time to trade the 6th overall for Murray!
Sorry man, I don't see it.
JJM was a 5 star recruit who graduated from IMG Academy. Courted by big time D1 schools.
Jones was a barely recruited walk-on at Duke.
Jones' NFL career lived up to his pedigree.
It's unbelievable, isn't it? You never know what you are going to read on this board.
Jones was going to play at 1-AA Princeton.
Meanwhile, JMac had offers from Michigan, Ohio State, Texas, LSU, Miami...on and on.
As talents, and I'm not a JMac guy, it's not even close.
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In comment 16457583 JonC said:
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but it's been tough during the scouting seasons.
Amen to that! I just invested 90 minutes into the Dane Brugler YouTube. Not going to spend another 90 minutes on another video.
FYI, this gets into a lot of non-draft stuff too.
For example, although Schmeelk hasn't talked to Bowen yet, he says too many assume Bowen's defense is a 3-4. Said he ran more a wide-9, 4-3 in Tennessee. Schmeelk thinks Burns and KT will be the "defensive ends" in this front.
I thought it was said that the Giants were going to be playing a 3-4 when Bowen was hired.
The point is there are places to go with McCarthy to make a strong case for him (again, I don't). Jones required significantly more imagination.
McCarthy was highly sought after recruit (top 30-50 recruit, depending on the recruiting agency), won huge games with the Blue and Maize, and was coached by a highly accomplished NFL HC.
Jones impressed an NFL GM by the way he managed the huddle at the Senior Bowl.
This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
Four years where? He had 4 TDs before jetting off to the Pac 12 with 1st round prospects on his line and a trio of excellent receivers in college.
College stats are also hilarious. Figure BBI would have learned their lesson with Dwayne Haskins.
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But that’s irrelevant to the point that Jones was overdrafted in a horrific QB class. A 5’10 qb drafted 1st overall. On the other hand, this is a great QB class. Oftentimes teams don’t mock guys like Penix or Nix in the first because of the notion that 6 QB’s won’t go in the first round. There’s no doubt in my mind Penix is a first round talent.
Your personal feelings on both players are affecting your judgment of how Jones and Penix were viewed.
I think you’re misremembering how Jones was viewed in the lead up to the draft. Very few considered him a first round talent. He was mostly mocked the way Penix has been throughout the process except initially Jones started out as a later pick. That was in a far weaker QB and overall draft class.
As far as JJ goes, Jones was talked about pre-draft the way JJ has, from the pro style offense and excellent coaching to having the necessary tools but more of a projection than what was shown on the field. The only difference is that McCarthy was a vastly superior recruit out of HS, won a ton of games and was more productive.
Draft one of the top 3 receivers or trade down.
Draft Pratt in the 3rd
Composite projection: Round 1
Some NFL people rank Jones as the No. 1 QB in the class. Others don't have him in the top five. Jones (6-5 1/8, 221) is polarizing for a variety of reasons, including his training under David Cutcliffe, who also coached Peyton and Eli Manning. Is he more equipped to play immediately because of his experience in a pro-style offense? Or has he been coached so well that he's already closer to his ceiling than the others? "He's probably got the highest IQ out of all of them, as far as what they ask him to do at the line of scrimmage," an AFC scout said. "It sounds like he has complete control. Yeah, he was trained by Cutcliffe, but it's more than just the Xs and Os. It's the details about being a quarterback -- the leadership, the preparation. He's got his own issues, like his deep-ball accuracy could be better. But he's playing with not a lot of talent around him."
In 36 college starts, Jones completed just 44 of 157 passes (28 percent) of 20-plus air yards, with 15 touchdowns and 11 interceptions, per Pro Football Focus. But drops and a general inability of his overmatched receivers to get open color the evaluation and lend context to Jones' career 59.9 percent completion rate. "They might not all be polished, but Haskins] had some great athletes out there," an NFC scouting director said. "[Daniel Jones is throwing to a bunch of guys that are going to be accountants in a year."
Much of what is said there is stuff we are hearing about some of the current guys now.
But don't tell me he wasn't regarded as a 1st round talent in 2019. He was. And he was discussed as such on this site.
That's the problem with QBs. FFS, look at the 2019 quarterback class.
But don't tell me he wasn't regarded as a 1st round talent in 2019. He was. And he was discussed as such on this site.
That's the problem with QBs. FFS, look at the 2019 quarterback class.
Every prospect in every class is going to have doubts. The lesson from that class isn't not to try, but not to chase a lost cause.
Teams need to be drafting quarterbacks more often and giving them shorter leashes. If the Giants draft a guy now it will be important not to give him the Jones scholarship. Two years is the leash. After that it's ok to consider options.
In truth the Giants should be drafting two this year. One from the top six and one from the Rattler/Pratt/Milton group.
I'm merely pointing out how bad the NFL (and the media and fans) are at evaluating QBs.
Remember all of the Dwayne Haskins love? Jones sucks, but he's still playing.
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I'm not defending Daniel Jones as a player now.
But don't tell me he wasn't regarded as a 1st round talent in 2019. He was. And he was discussed as such on this site.
That's the problem with QBs. FFS, look at the 2019 quarterback class.
Every prospect in every class is going to have doubts. The lesson from that class isn't not to try, but not to chase a lost cause.
Teams need to be drafting quarterbacks more often and giving them shorter leashes. If the Giants draft a guy now it will be important not to give him the Jones scholarship. Two years is the leash. After that it's ok to consider options.
In truth the Giants should be drafting two this year. One from the top six and one from the Rattler/Pratt/Milton group.
Two QBs? Where are they getting all these picks from, they only have 6.
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This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
Four years where? He had 4 TDs before jetting off to the Pac 12 with 1st round prospects on his line and a trio of excellent receivers in college.
He did not.
Also,
You can't be arguing that he wasn't an incredibly productive college player, and a winning one. Come on now.
There's no scenario where anyone would argue this, and comparing resumes of the two players is laughable. What are we doing here.
The problem with Penix is his injuries, and some find his age to be a bit of a negative.
I'm merely pointing out how bad the NFL (and the media and fans) are at evaluating QBs.
Remember all of the Dwayne Haskins love? Jones sucks, but he's still playing.
I remember hating Haskins from the outset when he looked overweight at his pro day. That dislike was confirmed when it came out he was charging $50 a head for people attending his draft party, and at that party he said (on camera) that he'd win 7 Super Bowls. I couldn't believe he even got drafted.
I remember hating Haskins from the outset when he looked overweight at his pro day. That dislike was confirmed when it came out he was charging $50 a head for people attending his draft party, and at that party he said (on camera) that he'd win 7 Super Bowls. I couldn't believe he even got drafted.
Do you know that Haskins story why he was drafted by WFT?
Jay Gruden didn't want him. But Snyder's son went to the Bullis School (Potomac, MD) and played football there. And so did Haskins. They became good friends.
Snyder got to know the Haskins family, followed Haskins at Ohio State and decided based on those local roots that Haskins would be great for WFT. Thus, the card was sent in with Haskins name on it...
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In comment 16458046 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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This I understand, but just being healthy isn't enough to say that healthy player x who did not have much college success and won very few games is a better prospect than player y, who had 4 years of being one of the most productive passers in college football, with an NFL skillset, and led his program to success.
Four years where? He had 4 TDs before jetting off to the Pac 12 with 1st round prospects on his line and a trio of excellent receivers in college.
He did not.
Also,
You can't be arguing that he wasn't an incredibly productive college player, and a winning one. Come on now.
There's no scenario where anyone would argue this, and comparing resumes of the two players is laughable. What are we doing here.
The problem with Penix is his injuries, and some find his age to be a bit of a negative.
Where was he producing in Indiana?
I didn't say Jones was more productive at Duke but Penix is soon to be 24, has had knee and shoulder surgeries and has issues of his own (pressure, middle of the field).
The brief info we have is he likes to employ mostly 4 man rushes and throws a variety of stunts and twists. Much less of a blitzer than we were so used to with Wink.
Burns, Thibodeaux and Dexter up front is a great start. Thibodeaux has to improve though.
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I remember hating Haskins from the outset when he looked overweight at his pro day. That dislike was confirmed when it came out he was charging $50 a head for people attending his draft party, and at that party he said (on camera) that he'd win 7 Super Bowls. I couldn't believe he even got drafted.
Do you know that Haskins story why he was drafted by WFT?
Jay Gruden didn't want him. But Snyder's son went to the Bullis School (Potomac, MD) and played football there. And so did Haskins. They became good friends.
Snyder got to know the Haskins family, followed Haskins at Ohio State and decided based on those local roots that Haskins would be great for WFT. Thus, the card was sent in with Haskins name on it...
😳
BUT HES GOT THE DEMEANOR FOR NYC! HES JUST LIKE ELI!
yeah, other than being capable of playing the fucking QB position.
Nitpick Penix all you want but his injury history is the only reason he’s not in play for top 5. He was a far superior college player than Jones and a better prospect even with the injuries.
Nitpick Penix all you want but his injury history is the only reason he’s not in play for top 5. He was a far superior college player than Jones and a better prospect even with the injuries.
Sure, Penix's injury history is the major factor. But it exists.
And it's 2019 is not some outlier. Look at other recent QB classes. Look at the history of teams trading up into the top 10 for a QB. It's a nightmare.
This is the kind of thing that drives me nuts with fans in the draft. For some reason, you guys take it as a personal insult if the guy you like is critiqued or the guy you don't like is defended.
Unless you are related to these guys, why?
It's OK to say that Jones was considered a first round QB in 2019 and Penix wasn't considered a 1st round QB while at the same time preferring one over the other.
Jones was not a surprise 1st rounder. It was a surprise that he was taken at #6. Many pundits as of today still do not believe Penix should go in the first round.
But you are telling me that is incorrect. It's not.
I remember all of the Haskins threads. I remember the threads on his Pro Day when we debated if he was out of shape.
I also remember the year earlier, in 2018, all of the endless Sam Darnold versus Josh Rosen threads.
The QB's are a little over rated but that usually happens. Different rules with the OL has inflated college QB/offensive production. I still think the Giants are going QB early unless they can't move up or the QB they like is taken.
Always interesting seeing the posters who take the most shots at Jones were the ones pushing for Willis at pick 5 or 7.
What's interesting about it? Draft analysts like Sy rated Willis the highest rated quarterback in the 2022 draft. Sy rated both Jones and Willis an 80 grade in their respective drafts.
Jones has proven he's not durable and has fundamental flaws that keep him from demonstrating consistent success as a starter.
Willis has proven he has trouble throwing the ball at the NFL level, and will be a career backup or late developer like Tyrod Taylor.
If the Giants had let Jones go and drafted Willis, they'd be contemplating the same decision today: drafting a quarterback.
Two practical differences 1) they wouldn't have acquired Evan Neal 2) they wouldn't have paid Daniel Jones 82M.
I'm perfectly comfortable with my desire to draft Willis. Keep taking shots at QB until you have a capable one.
Listening to many podcasts my take away is that Maye is the only QB that we should aggressively try to pursue. Otherwise giving up number one pick next year is too rich for my blood with the exception of Drake Maye. If he is gone or not attainable stay at six and get one of the top three wr. I would be thrilled with any of the group of MHJ, Ordunse, Nabers.