Schoen's Drafting Tendencies

Thanks Rico.

But I believe they'd be happy with any of the top 3 WR as a consolation prize if they miss out on their QB target(s).

Does generally seem to understand the importance of positional value and BPA vs need. I'm still not sold on his overall talent evaluation skills. The immediate impact, or lack thereof, of this year's free agency / draft class will be telling.

But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs.

which one of those three WRs does he not like? That’s a question for anyone.

He traded up last year for Banks and Hyatt and, from the sounds of things, had to be all but he restrained not to trade up for JMS.

He will have higher grades for players or like some players more than other teams throughout every draft…feeling the need to trade up for them annually would be problematic. Especially, as gameday mentioned, his picks haven’t yet shown to be very successful.

To identify the specific players he thinks can improve the team. Rico’s point that he probably only likes a couple of the QBs should give us confidence he knows what he’s doing. I get it that here it’s “get me anyone not named Jones” but I’m certainly glad that’s not Schoen’s approach.

It is never about the position or the class.....it is about the player.

I get grades and kind of understand how those #s get added up.....but not all grades are equal.

I heard the other day....coach Payton QBs must have large hands.

In comment 16459114 JoeSchoens11 said:

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He traded up last year for Banks and Hyatt and, from the sounds of things, had to be all but he restrained not to trade up for JMS. He will have higher grades for players or like some players more than other teams throughout every draft…feeling the need to trade up for them annually would be problematic. Especially, as gameday mentioned, his picks haven’t yet shown to be very successful.

Agree completely. Trading up often is an expensive way to build a team, if anything look the trade back.

By my count, 8 on-Ball picks, 10 off-Ball. You run through the names and I'm not sure you'll see many home runs. Time will tell. My guess: Two more drafts, including this one in 18 days, will decide his fate as a Giants GM.

On-Ball:
Kayvon Thibodeaux
Evan Neal
Joshua Ezeudu
D. J. Davidson
Marcus McKethan
Daniel Bellinger
John Michael Schmitz
Jordon Riley

Off-Ball:
Wan'Dale Robinson
Cordale Flott
Dane Belton
Micah McFadden
Darrian Beavers
Deonte Banks
Jalin Hyatt
Eric Gray
Tre Hawkins III
Gervarrius Owens

When your offensive line was one of the worst in history at pass protection and not much better at run-blocking and your defensive line was tied for 28th in sacks. So they added one good free-agent to both lines. They’re not done.

You want the team to give up two firsts and a second for a rookie QB who is not the consensus best in the draft and is probably not the current most likely second best. The only assumption we can make for sure is that the first four quarterbacks selected will not all end up in the Hall of Fame. Just last year they blew it on the consensus pick for the best.

So this rookie QB will start behind a line that may give up only 45 sacks. And he’ll have to play without Barkley standing next to him as one the defense always had to account for. Your rookie is being set up for failure.

Remember that season when Eli had about two seconds to get the ball off and he had time to look for one receiver, OBJ, who caught half the passes despite being triple-covered? Not a recipe for success. Dallas and Philly both rebuilt their teams starting with the offensive lines.

Missing on draft picks...selecting the wrong player (Toney, Sam Beal, every 3rd RD selection prior to Hyatt,Flott, Ezeudu)...


Also,I do not think trading up....is the point.....but targeting players.

Schoen traded down twice.....and to draft W.Robinson. it was a head scratcher to me at the time.....but he was excellent for this offense last year!

from 30 visits the last two years also supports this theme.

Good observation.

In comment 16459182 Reese's Pieces said:

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When your offensive line was one of the worst in history at pass protection and not much better at run-blocking and your defensive line was tied for 28th in sacks. So they added one good free-agent to both lines. They’re not done.

This isn’t really true. He signed Runyon and Eluemunor who are both expected to be starting. He signed three new OL backups. And that to go with a 1st and a 2nd round pick. Don’t know if he’s done or not but it’s a significant investment in the OL the likes of which we may have never seen before.

But scary. If you look at Schoen's choices, whatever his tendency has been, it has been a pretty bad overall result. We now have arguably one of the worst three rosters in the entire NFL.

So far, given what we now know, here is my "work in progress" assessment of his 18 selections, taking into account draft position. This is an assessment of result, not intention, so injuries are not an excuse:

1. Great picks (A): Banks, Hyatt (2)
2. Good picks (B): Thibs, McFadden, Belton, Hawkins, Riley (5)
3. Average picks (C): Robinson, Flott, Schmitz, Davidson, Bellinger (5)
4. Below Average picks (D): Gray, Ezeudu, McKethan, Beavers, Owens (5)
5. Failed picks (F): Neal (1)

This would be an overall GPA of 2.4, or "average". Hardly an improved approach over throwing darts at the draft board. And with only two great picks and zero pro bowls amongst this entire group, you could argue it is a worse track record than that of Gettleman, since both Thomas and Lawrence have become solid pro bowl players. Hyatt, Banks and Thibs could become pro bowlers as soon as this year, but it is still very much a question mark. And at this point, how may of these guys would you give big time second contracts to? For me, without significant improvement in 2024 from any of them, the answer is unequivocally zero.

So for me, whatever Schoen is doing, it is wrong. He should throw out his "smartest guy in the room" approach on individual players and focus on consensus best player available for every single pick in the upcoming draft. Reaching for players he "falls in love with" could not be a bigger disaster for this franchise.

...

It really makes the Visit List all the more valuable in terms of providing insight into whom we might draft.

and when you have that you remove making panic moves like some brainless regimes in the past who reached for the sake of filling a position.

In comment 16459241 The Mike said:

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But scary. If you look at Schoen's choices, whatever his tendency has been, it has been a pretty bad overall result. We now have arguably one of the worst three rosters in the entire NFL. So far, given what we now know, here is my "work in progress" assessment of his 18 selections, taking into account draft position. This is an assessment of result, not intention, so injuries are not an excuse: 1. Great picks (A): Banks, Hyatt (2) 2. Good picks (B): Thibs, McFadden, Belton, Hawkins, Riley (5) 3. Average picks (C): Robinson, Flott, Schmitz, Davidson, Bellinger (5) 4. Below Average picks (D): Gray, Ezeudu, McKethan, Beavers, Owens (5) 5. Failed picks (F): Neal (1) This would be an overall GPA of 2.4, or "average". Hardly an improved approach over throwing darts at the draft board. And with only two great picks and zero pro bowls amongst this entire group, you could argue it is a worse track record than that of Gettleman, since both Thomas and Lawrence have become solid pro bowl players. Hyatt, Banks and Thibs could become pro bowlers as soon as this year, but it is still very much a question mark. And at this point, how may of these guys would you give big time second contracts to? For me, without significant improvement in 2024 from any of them, the answer is unequivocally zero. So for me, whatever Schoen is doing, it is wrong. He should throw out his "smartest guy in the room" approach on individual players and focus on consensus best player available for every single pick in the upcoming draft. Reaching for players he "falls in love with" could not be a bigger disaster for this franchise.

Fair points, but I still see a better approach now than with Dimwit Dave, especially with his abysmal record of high priced FA signings.

They have specific targets and while we may view some of these players at the same level, there's a good chance the team has more variation. Which is why those framing the question as --do you take the QB of the future or give your QB a WR have it all wrong. Schoen will look to draft a player, not a position, as he should.

In comment 16459241 The Mike said:

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But scary. If you look at Schoen's choices, whatever his tendency has been, it has been a pretty bad overall result. We now have arguably one of the worst three rosters in the entire NFL. So far, given what we now know, here is my "work in progress" assessment of his 18 selections, taking into account draft position. This is an assessment of result, not intention, so injuries are not an excuse: 1. Great picks (A): Banks, Hyatt (2) 2. Good picks (B): Thibs, McFadden, Belton, Hawkins, Riley (5) 3. Average picks (C): Robinson, Flott, Schmitz, Davidson, Bellinger (5) 4. Below Average picks (D): Gray, Ezeudu, McKethan, Beavers, Owens (5) 5. Failed picks (F): Neal (1) This would be an overall GPA of 2.4, or "average". Hardly an improved approach over throwing darts at the draft board. And with only two great picks and zero pro bowls amongst this entire group, you could argue it is a worse track record than that of Gettleman, since both Thomas and Lawrence have become solid pro bowl players. Hyatt, Banks and Thibs could become pro bowlers as soon as this year, but it is still very much a question mark. And at this point, how may of these guys would you give big time second contracts to? For me, without significant improvement in 2024 from any of them, the answer is unequivocally zero. So for me, whatever Schoen is doing, it is wrong. He should throw out his "smartest guy in the room" approach on individual players and focus on consensus best player available for every single pick in the upcoming draft. Reaching for players he "falls in love with" could not be a bigger disaster for this franchise.

Whatever he is doing is wrong?
I think it is wayyyy to premature to make that statement
You can’t judge draft classes after just a year or two

been looking for your posts for some tea leaves.


It does seem, albeit through media/internet, its always been a top tier of 3 WR. Wondering if Joe Schoen leans into taking one of them, or trading back like you suggest.

In comment 16459104 Chris684 said:

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But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs.

They really like Nabers. Daboll in particular REALLY likes Nabers. Remember. Daboll liked Diggs as well. Also, Daboll isn’t a choir boy guy (Hyatt is a bit cocky in his own right.) Daboll appreciates fire and a bit of swagger.

In comment 16459387 GoDeep13 said:

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In comment 16459104 Chris684 said: Quote: But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs. They really like Nabers. Daboll in particular REALLY likes Nabers. Remember. Daboll liked Diggs as well. Also, Daboll isn’t a choir boy guy (Hyatt is a bit cocky in his own right.) Daboll appreciates fire and a bit of swagger.

I've been looking for your recent posts!

In comment 16459387 GoDeep13 said:

Quote:

In comment 16459104 Chris684 said: Quote: But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs. They really like Nabers. Daboll in particular REALLY likes Nabers. Remember. Daboll liked Diggs as well. Also, Daboll isn’t a choir boy guy (Hyatt is a bit cocky in his own right.) Daboll appreciates fire and a bit of swagger.

Best separation of the WRs. He does seem like a Daboll type WR.

In comment 16459318 56goat said:

Quote:

In comment 16459241 The Mike said: Quote: But scary. If you look at Schoen's choices, whatever his tendency has been, it has been a pretty bad overall result. We now have arguably one of the worst three rosters in the entire NFL. So far, given what we now know, here is my "work in progress" assessment of his 18 selections, taking into account draft position. This is an assessment of result, not intention, so injuries are not an excuse: 1. Great picks (A): Banks, Hyatt (2) 2. Good picks (B): Thibs, McFadden, Belton, Hawkins, Riley (5) 3. Average picks (C): Robinson, Flott, Schmitz, Davidson, Bellinger (5) 4. Below Average picks (D): Gray, Ezeudu, McKethan, Beavers, Owens (5) 5. Failed picks (F): Neal (1) This would be an overall GPA of 2.4, or "average". Hardly an improved approach over throwing darts at the draft board. And with only two great picks and zero pro bowls amongst this entire group, you could argue it is a worse track record than that of Gettleman, since both Thomas and Lawrence have become solid pro bowl players. Hyatt, Banks and Thibs could become pro bowlers as soon as this year, but it is still very much a question mark. And at this point, how may of these guys would you give big time second contracts to? For me, without significant improvement in 2024 from any of them, the answer is unequivocally zero. So for me, whatever Schoen is doing, it is wrong. He should throw out his "smartest guy in the room" approach on individual players and focus on consensus best player available for every single pick in the upcoming draft. Reaching for players he "falls in love with" could not be a bigger disaster for this franchise. Fair points, but I still see a better approach now than with Dimwit Dave, especially with his abysmal record of high priced FA signings.

There is no doubt that Schoen is better than "Dimwit Dave" as it relates to free agents...

Schoen has stunk so far. He better not fuck this draft up but personally my confidence level is not high.

Banks and Hyatt great picks is a stretch at best.

rather than positional group makes you less prone to reaching.

In comment 16459428 Harvest Blend said:

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Banks and Hyatt great picks is a stretch at best.

You are absolutely right. I was trying to be kind.

1 - Edge Kayvon Thibodeaux (B) - good, but not great. Interesting to see how new scheme impacts his game
1 - OT Evan Neal (F) - a "sure thing" who turned into a disaster. Some teams like Dallas had him #1 on their board. Makes no sense.
2 - WR Wan’Dale Robinson (B) ACL tear his rookie season could have wrecked his career, but he looks like a real player
3 - OG/OT Joshua Ezeudu (D) - Flashes, but very inconsistent and injury prone. Coaches have done him no favors moving him around.
3 - CB Cor’Dale Flott (C) Flashes, but inconsistent. Big year for him.
4 - TE Daniel Bellinger (C) Very good rookie season, weirdly regressed in 2023.
4 - S Dane Belton (C) Flashes and may start this year, Need consistency.
5 - LB Micah McFadden (B) Became starter, but need to improve tackling.
5 - DL D.J. Davidson (B) Sabotaged by ACL but flashes.
5 - OG Marcus McKethan (D) Sabotaged by ACL. Still largely unknown but coaches liked him at one point.
6 - LB Darrian Beavers (INC) - Well on his way to being a starter as a rookie but ACL.

(The 5-6 round showed more value than we were used to under Gettleman).

1. CB Deonte Banks (A) - To date, everything advertised.
2. OC John Michael Schmitz (C) - Started off decently, got hurt, struggled for much of the season. Like Neal, one wonders about injury/coaching issues. Regarded by many as #1 center in draft.
3. WR Jalin Hyatt (B) - To date, as advertised and possibly more, but QB and OL issues affected his productivity.
4. RB Eric Gray (D) Barely used so grade may be unfair.
6. CB Tre Hawkins III (B) - Decent chance that 6th rounder becomes starting NFL corner. That doesn't happen much in the NFL. Big time scouting here.
7. DL Jordon Riley (A) - Actually flashes starting potential. For a 7th rounder? Big time scouting here.
7. S S Gervarrius Owens (INC) - Didn't play but looks like he could possibly be a factor in 2024.

(Again, late round picks look really good).

In comment 16459471 Eric from BBI said:

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1 - Edge Kayvon Thibodeaux (B) - good, but not great. Interesting to see how new scheme impacts his game 1 - OT Evan Neal (F) - a "sure thing" who turned into a disaster. Some teams like Dallas had him #1 on their board. Makes no sense. 2 - WR Wan’Dale Robinson (B) ACL tear his rookie season could have wrecked his career, but he looks like a real player 3 - OG/OT Joshua Ezeudu (D) - Flashes, but very inconsistent and injury prone. Coaches have done him no favors moving him around. 3 - CB Cor’Dale Flott (C) Flashes, but inconsistent. Big year for him. 4 - TE Daniel Bellinger (C) Very good rookie season, weirdly regressed in 2023. 4 - S Dane Belton (C) Flashes and may start this year, Need consistency. 5 - LB Micah McFadden (B) Became starter, but need to improve tackling. 5 - DL D.J. Davidson (B) Sabotaged by ACL but flashes. 5 - OG Marcus McKethan (D) Sabotaged by ACL. Still largely unknown but coaches liked him at one point. 6 - LB Darrian Beavers (INC) - Well on his way to being a starter as a rookie but ACL. (The 5-6 round showed more value than we were used to under Gettleman). 1. CB Deonte Banks (A) - To date, everything advertised. 2. OC John Michael Schmitz (C) - Started off decently, got hurt, struggled for much of the season. Like Neal, one wonders about injury/coaching issues. Regarded by many as #1 center in draft. 3. WR Jalin Hyatt (B) - To date, as advertised and possibly more, but QB and OL issues affected his productivity. 4. RB Eric Gray (D) Barely used so grade may be unfair. 6. CB Tre Hawkins III (B) - Decent chance that 6th rounder becomes starting NFL corner. That doesn't happen much in the NFL. Big time scouting here. 7. DL Jordon Riley (A) - Actually flashes starting potential. For a 7th rounder? Big time scouting here. 7. S S Gervarrius Owens (INC) - Didn't play but looks like he could possibly be a factor in 2024. (Again, late round picks look really good).

Agreed. KT might also be a lot better now that with Burns we have another credible edge rusher.

And it ain't a B thus far unless you give his WFT games 50% weighting.

He traded down twice his first year because he was targeting Robinson. He still drafted him higher than the "experts" thought he should go.

He definitely targeted the first 3 picks last year.

He will trade up to get the guy he wants. He will trade if guys they want aren't available.

I agree, if QB and WRs they want aren't there at 6, we could see a trade down.

But a top WR should be, and if that's the case grab the blue chip WR.

In comment 16459387 GoDeep13 said:

Quote:

In comment 16459104 Chris684 said: Quote: But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs. They really like Nabers. Daboll in particular REALLY likes Nabers. Remember. Daboll liked Diggs as well. Also, Daboll isn’t a choir boy guy (Hyatt is a bit cocky in his own right.) Daboll appreciates fire and a bit of swagger.

Interesting, thanks for the info. I cannot wait for this draft.

In comment 16459387 GoDeep13 said:

Quote:

In comment 16459104 Chris684 said: Quote: But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs. They really like Nabers. Daboll in particular REALLY likes Nabers. Remember. Daboll liked Diggs as well. Also, Daboll isn’t a choir boy guy (Hyatt is a bit cocky in his own right.) Daboll appreciates fire and a bit of swagger.

daboll prefers pennix too

based on Schabs’ value board ? If equalities exist you look to trade down ?

In comment 16459574 Giants1986 said:

Quote:

In comment 16459387 GoDeep13 said: Quote: In comment 16459104 Chris684 said: Quote: But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs. They really like Nabers. Daboll in particular REALLY likes Nabers. Remember. Daboll liked Diggs as well. Also, Daboll isn’t a choir boy guy (Hyatt is a bit cocky in his own right.) Daboll appreciates fire and a bit of swagger. daboll prefers pennix too

And you know this how?

1. Trade up for Maye
2. JJM AT 6
3. Nabers at 6

(Not really sure they take JJM over Nabers at 6, just a hunch.)

In comment 16459471 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

1 - Edge Kayvon Thibodeaux (B) - good, but not great. Interesting to see how new scheme impacts his game 1 - OT Evan Neal (F) - a "sure thing" who turned into a disaster. Some teams like Dallas had him #1 on their board. Makes no sense. 2 - WR Wan’Dale Robinson (B) ACL tear his rookie season could have wrecked his career, but he looks like a real player 3 - OG/OT Joshua Ezeudu (D) - Flashes, but very inconsistent and injury prone. Coaches have done him no favors moving him around. 3 - CB Cor’Dale Flott (C) Flashes, but inconsistent. Big year for him. 4 - TE Daniel Bellinger (C) Very good rookie season, weirdly regressed in 2023. 4 - S Dane Belton (C) Flashes and may start this year, Need consistency. 5 - LB Micah McFadden (B) Became starter, but need to improve tackling. 5 - DL D.J. Davidson (B) Sabotaged by ACL but flashes. 5 - OG Marcus McKethan (D) Sabotaged by ACL. Still largely unknown but coaches liked him at one point. 6 - LB Darrian Beavers (INC) - Well on his way to being a starter as a rookie but ACL. (The 5-6 round showed more value than we were used to under Gettleman). 1. CB Deonte Banks (A) - To date, everything advertised. 2. OC John Michael Schmitz (C) - Started off decently, got hurt, struggled for much of the season. Like Neal, one wonders about injury/coaching issues. Regarded by many as #1 center in draft. 3. WR Jalin Hyatt (B) - To date, as advertised and possibly more, but QB and OL issues affected his productivity. 4. RB Eric Gray (D) Barely used so grade may be unfair. 6. CB Tre Hawkins III (B) - Decent chance that 6th rounder becomes starting NFL corner. That doesn't happen much in the NFL. Big time scouting here. 7. DL Jordon Riley (A) - Actually flashes starting potential. For a 7th rounder? Big time scouting here. 7. S S Gervarrius Owens (INC) - Didn't play but looks like he could possibly be a factor in 2024. (Again, late round picks look really good).

I thought Gray was a 5th rounder since we traded the 4th so we could draft Hyatt.

In comment 16459728 Mbavaro said:

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In comment 16459574 Giants1986 said: Quote: In comment 16459387 GoDeep13 said: Quote: In comment 16459104 Chris684 said: Quote: But I have a feeling NYG has it as Maye and McCarthy for QBs and Harrison Odunze for the WRs. They really like Nabers. Daboll in particular REALLY likes Nabers. Remember. Daboll liked Diggs as well. Also, Daboll isn’t a choir boy guy (Hyatt is a bit cocky in his own right.) Daboll appreciates fire and a bit of swagger. daboll prefers pennix too And you know this how?

might be asshat

In comment 16459733 BleedBlue46 said:

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1. Trade up for Maye 2. JJM AT 6 3. Nabers at 6 (Not really sure they take JJM over Nabers at 6, just a hunch.)

I’m very disappointed if these are the actual priorities.

In comment 16460815 Spider56 said:

Quote:

In comment 16459733 BleedBlue46 said: Quote: 1. Trade up for Maye 2. JJM AT 6 3. Nabers at 6 (Not really sure they take JJM over Nabers at 6, just a hunch.) I’m very disappointed if these are the actual priorities.

Good chance the plan is either Maye or Nabers if you go by asshat reports here at this point.