QUARTERBACK
Draft Grade Index:
90+ All-Pro Projection
85-89: Pro Bowl Projection:
81-84: 1st Round – Year 1 starter
77-80: 2nd/3rd Round – Year 1 contributor, year 2-3 starter
74-76: Early Day 3: CoresSpecial teamer and rotational player
71-74: Mid Day 3: Core special teamer and backup
68-70: Late Day 3: Developmental and special teamer
TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS
1. Jayden Daniels – LSU – 6’3 / 210
Grade: 87
Five-year starter. Earned first team All-SEC and All-American in 2023. Spent three years at Arizona State where he was the first true freshman in school history to start week one. Transferred to LSU in 2022 where he ended up winning the Walter Camp Player of the Year Award, Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, Davey O’Brien Award, and Heisman Trophy. (in 2023). Daniels brings two important traits to the table that fit perfect into today’s NFL. He is a true dual threat that knows how and when to use his legs to enhance both the passing and running games. He also has a tremendous amount of experience with his best football coming after he transferred into the SEC. The ability to process and get the ball out actually improved after making that jump in competition against NFL-caliber speed. He plays fast and confident, he shows poise and intelligence. If he can avoid a lot of heavy contact in order to stay on the field, he will end up a dangerous big play machine at the next level. The concerns around his body type and durability are warranted, but he hasn’t missed a start since November of 2019, shows extreme dexterity in his joints, and exudes both mental and physical toughness.
*Daniels set records for explosive plays. Daniels checks every both athletically. Daniels left his mark on the LSU coaching staff when it came to leadership and work ethic qualities (among coaches that set the bar high). Daniels has impressed in private meetings with teams. What else can one want? The body type is the one thing that will prevent some from putting him into the elite category (I bet he plays closer to 200 pounds) and because of historical data, I won’t push back against those that want to steer clear. But you have to keep in mind the historical data is partially from a different era of football. With how much quarterbacks are protected now; I think him being around 205-210 pounds is not as big of a deal as it would have been in 2000-2010. Brian Daboll made this offense more efficient in year one, but he knows that will never be good enough. They need more explosive plays while maintaining the efficiency both on the ground and via the air. That sums up Daniels and what he brings to the table. The game is changing and Daniels is closer to the prototype than had he come out ten years ago, by a mile. He’s the guy if he is somehow there at 6.
NFL Comparison: Randall Cunningham / RET
NFL Ceiling: Lamar Jackson / BAL
2. Caleb Williams – USC – 6’1 / 214
Grade: 87
Three-year starter. All-Big 12 in 2021 and All-Pac 12 in both 2023 and 2022 after transferring from Oklahoma to USC. Winner of the Heisman Trophy, AP Player of the Year, and Maxwell Award in 2022 after setting a USC single season record for total offense and touchdowns. Williams was a five-star recruit that followed Head Coach Lincoln Riley out west from Oklahoma following his freshman season. Riley guided two quarterbacks (Baker Mayfield in 2018 and Kyler Murray in 2019) to eventual number one overall slots in the NFL Draft in addition to reviving Jalen Hurts’ college career prior to being selected in the second round of the 2020 Draft. Williams’ succeeded in the quarterback-friendly system as well but his overall talent is on a different level. The playmaking ability is dripping off the innovative, creative competitor. He can create on his own and there is always a credible threat for the homerun when he touches the ball. Because his offensive line was so poor, specifically in 2023, Williams was forced out of structure often. He needed to make up for one of the worst scoring defenses as well and that combination created bad habits. He tried too hard to play hero-ball and got away from taking what was available initially. While that does make it look good on the highlight reel and it did provide clarity on what he is uniquely capable of, Williams will not get away with most of those circus acts at the next level. NFL defenses are too fast and complex for that. He will need to show he can get back to basic, fundamentally sound football that centers around ball protection and sound decision making. If he applies himself properly and the system around him is strong, the sky truly is the limit for the uber-talented star.
*Williams ends up with the same grade as Daniels. While I trust Daniels more, I will acknowledge Williams does have the ceiling of a perennial All-Pro. Simply put, he can do things nobody else can on a weekly basis. I also think he has shown better pocket awareness and “sixth sense” in his game. His contact balance and lower body strength will make him tougher to take down for a sack, and he throws better on the move. What puts him as “1B” in this class has nothing to do with some of the off-field stuff that bothers some. Painting his nails, crying in his mom’s arms after a loss, his sense of fashion. None of that matters to me and none of it factored into the grade. I simply do not like the lack of ability to control his “backyard” football. I do not think it will work against NFL speed and if anything, pro defenses will leverage against it. The fumble issue was all-time bad, the Notre Dame tape was as bad as it gets among the top guys in this class, and I think he created more issues than some want to admit for that USC team. Are there whispers about how different of a dude he is? Yup. Dating all the way back to high school. Do I fear him being the face of a franchise during a bad stretch? Yup. Do I think he’s reading and taking in the talk of him being a generational talent (whatever that means)? Yup. But he has a clean slate in the NFL, period. This isn’t Johnny Manziel. I will not be surprised if the personality differences get ugly if things get bad, however. And for some, that is enough to look past him.
NFL Comparison: Kyler Murray / ARI
NFL Ceiling: Aaron Rodgers / NYJ
3. JJ McCarthy – Michigan – 6’2 / 219
Grade: 84
Junior entry. Two-year starter, La. Grange, IL. An accomplished lacrosse and hockey player in high school, McCarthy spent one season as a backup before winning the starting job in 2022 and eventually ascending to a National Champion and Manning Award finalist. He went 27-1 as a starter and set program single-season records in interception rate and completion percentage. Playing in a pro-style offense under Jim Harbaugh that was built on a power run game, McCarthy did not have the carry the team week in, week out. His drop back volume and overall need to spray it all over the field was did not reach the level of most others at the position. When it mattered, however, he showed clutch genes and dependable play. McCarthy is a very mature 21-year-old that is still only scratching the surface of what he can become. Focusing on what he does well in big moments on the national stage under the big lights gives the notion he can handle the pressure, literally and figuratively, of leading a team from under center. The fact he did not have to throw the ball as often can leave his projection a bit gray. However, considering how much this position is based on what goes on between the ears along with an ability to be a dual threat, McCarthy is set up for success at the next level and has several key variables made clear.
*I was asked a few times during the fall and December where McCarthy would go in the 2024 Draft if he were to come out. I said day two more times than I can count. Before the deep dive into all of his film from 2023 AND 2022, that is what his game looked like from the casual onlooker. I thought (and still think) he was best suited to return to school and be the unquestioned #1 overall guy in 2025. When he declared, I went all in on his film and came out with him being the #3 guy in this class. You want to know who was the best in class against pressure? McCarthy. What about the best on third + fourth down? McCarthy. What about protecting the football? McCarthy. Who’s played the most football in a pro-style offense? McCarthy. It was not enough to put him ahead of the other two, but I do think he is the number three guy and the most realistic option for NYG at 6 if they stay put. Now the question is, do you trade up for him to avoid getting leapfrogged by MIN? It is a tough call. NYG is not a quarterback away and they need the resources (draft picks) to build this thing long term. McCarthy is good, but I would not label him special. After a long time pondering, I came away saying I would not give anything more than a third-round pick to move up for him and my preference is to not trade up at all.
NFL Comparison: Rich Gannon / RET
NFL Ceiling: Joe Burrow / CIN
4. Drake Maye – North Carolina – 6’4 / 223
Grade: 83
Third-year sophomore entry, two-year starter. All-ACC both seasons, first team in 2022. Coming from an athletic family (two brothers and father played basketball at North Carolina, one played baseball at Florida), Maye has been waiting for his time seemingly forever. He arrived to the Tar Heels as a four-star recruit and backed up eventual NFL quarterback Sam Howell for a season. After the redshirt year he went on to win FWAA Freshman All-American honors, finished as a Manning Award finalist, and earned ACC Player of the Year honors with a dual-threat approach. His production coming from his arm and legs matched the levels we have seen from the likes of Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson, Robert Griffin III, and Marcus Mariota to name a few. He led the team in rushing, but also set a program record with 38 passing touchdowns. He was just the fifth quarterback in ACC history to amass over 5,000 total yards. While Maye did see a dip in production in 2023 and there are specific elements to his game that absolutely need to be sharpened, he does show a prototype combination of traits to be a quality starter at the next level. He can make every throw at a high level, and he does a lot of good work on the move where he needs to be the creator. If he can gain more consistency with ball placement and become more confident in his decisions, the likelihood of him becoming a quality starting quarterback is high. The hesitation comes from inconsistent ball placement and random poor decisions he will make with the ball, both correctable issues if he can be put in the right position.
*I see Maye’s name thrown around into the Josh Allen/Justin Herbert section of projections. I can see why. The size and easy arm talent is close to (not quite there) those two. I do have Maye graded as the best pocket passer in the group. To some, that is enough to label him the guy in this class (or at least QB3) and I won’t argue against it. If I had to bet on who the NYG brass will make a move for, it is Maye. I’m simply worried about the inconsistency and step backwards he took in 2023. I don’t want to hear about a lack of supporting cast either. He had Josh Downs last year (Colts 2nd leading receiver as a rookie), and 2024 prospect Tez Walker in 2023 (and a RB that we will be talking about next year) along with a few others that will be in training camps / on pro rosters. It was not a poor supporting cast. Maye simply looks and plays like Tarzan some plays, looks and plays like Jane on others. The situation around him needs to be a certain way for it to work, more so than the other guys. The one positive NYG can be for him is the fact he will sit for a full season here. That is a must for him unless a team is fully loaded (which NYG is not). That can give this front office another 12 months to build the support system for him. Any of these four quarterbacks for NYG would be fully endorsed by me, but Maye is the one that scares me the most.
NFL Comparison: Jameis Winston / FA
NFL Ceiling: Eli Manning / RET
5. Bo Nix – Oregon – 6’2 / 214
Grade: 80
Five-year starter. All-Pac 12 in both 2023 and 2022, first team in 2023 in addition to winning the conference Offensive Player of the Year Award and a spot on the All-American Squad. Nix spent three years at Auburn, following in the footsteps of his father. He was the first true freshman to start under center for the program since 1946. The son of a legendary high school coach is battle tested. After winning the 2019 SEC Freshman of the Year award, his career began to spiral. He graduated in just three years and transferred to Oregon. He left there as the program’s all-time leader in completion percentage and set single season records in completions, yards, and passing touchdowns. His completion percentage in 2023 was an all-time NCAA record. Nix started more games under center than any other quarterback in FBS history. Simply put, this is a guy that is battle-tested, mentally and physically tough, and all-time productive. The physical traits are more than good enough to make everything happen on the field a quarterback needs to make happen.
*A big part of playing and evolving in the NFL at this position is the response to adversity. Not everyone wants to talk about it, but it is the truth. Nix has had almost unfair expectations put on his shoulders since he came out of high school. It went great, then it went horrible. Sounds like some of the young quarterbacks that flame out, right? Nix resurrected his career in a big way. Now, the fact he did it in the Pac-12 and not the SEC needs to be weighed (part of what makes the Daniels ascent special). But watch some of his early tapes at Auburn and watch his 2023 at Oregon; it is easy to see the contrast in him as a player. Nix is a guy I like a lot as a day two option for the Giants. Do I think he will be there? No. But I did not think Will Levis would fall to round 2 a year ago. It is a possibility. It would likely require a day 2 trade-up but there are options at #6 overall to trade down and pick up extra capital to offset any sort of loss. Or they can get a blue chip WR at #6 and make the aggressive move up in round 2 for a guy like Nix. I think his floor is what NYG currently has in Daniel Jones. His ceiling is something in the area of what Deshaun Watson was with Houston (pre-drama). Do you like the day two risk of Nix or the top 10 risk of one the guys above? Another tough call considering what else could come in through the door if they go receiver early.
NFL Comparison: Daniel Jones / NYG
NFL Ceiling: Deshaun Watson / CLE (from his HOU days)
6. Michael Penix Jr. - Washington – 6’2 / 216
Grade: 79
Sixth-year senior, five-year starter. Spent four seasons at Indiana where he earned All-Big Ten honors in 2020. Transferred to Washington in 2022 and earned All-Pac 12 honors in both 2023 and 2022. All-American in 2023 in addition to winning the Maxwell Award. Winner of the 2022 AP Comeback Player of the Year Award. Penix’s career was marred by injuries early on. He suffered four separate season endersto his right knee and both shoulders respectively. He was turning Indiana around in 2020, as he had them as highly ranked as number seven in the country and he was leading the Big Ten in passing before he went down. The transfer to Washington displayed what he was capable of. Penix did not miss a single game in two years, he set and then broke single season passing records for the program, and he led the nation in passing in both 2023 and 2022. He is battle tested and has come out on the other side of adversity a winner. He has more than enough arm talent and athletic ability to physically do it all. The lack of pressure he dealt with during his time at Washington from opposing pass rushers does leave some gray area around his projection. He did not always deal with tight windows and quality opposing defenses well. This is a wildcard-type prospect for multiple reasons, but one that has the ability to be an explosive play engineer.
*You ever golf with someone that is an absolute monster off the tee box? Forget everything else. He’s simply a dude every time he gets to tee it up, he launches it. That is Penix as a quarterback. He can make the explosive downfield passes with the be best. Because of scheme and who he had at receiver, Penix simply did not have to do a lot with crossers and/or west coast concepts. Because of his offensive line and poor Pac-12 pass rushes, he constantly had a ton of room to navigate within the pocket. The question that he enters the league with, beyond the scary medicals, is what he can do with his long drive off the tee box. Can he chip? Can he putt? Can get the approach shot over water and in front of the sand? How many clubs in that bag does he truly use at a high level? We just don’t know. There is a level of unknown to every prospect. That is what makes some of this playing darts with a blindfold on. Penix, if healthy and that is a big if, has as much arm talent as any of the guys listed above. For the record, the medicals downgraded him from an 82 grade. So don’t get it twisted. NYG in round two makes some sense as long as the medicals are clean but that would give NYG two quarterbacks with serious concerns in that area. Robbing Peter to pay Paul?
NFL Comparison: Marcus Mariota / WAS
NFL Ceiling: Jordan Love / GB
7. Joe Milton – Tennessee – 6’5 / 235
Grade: 75
Sixth-year senior. Two-year starter. Spent three seasons at Michigan before transferring to Tennessee in 2021 where he lost his job to Hendon Hooker (Detroit third round pick in 2023). Milton has rare arm strength combined with a plus-sized frame and easy confidence. The traits are there to create the high-ceiling outlook if he can be properly developed. In order for him to come anywhere near that ceiling, he needs a lot of ducks to line up perfectly. His mechanics, ability to read a defense, and accuracy all need significant upward strides, or the bottom is going to fall out fast. Hit or miss, star or castoff. A team will likely need to keep three quarterbacks on their 53-man roster for at least a full season because of how far away he is from being ready.
*If NYG is going to punt on quarterback early (which a case can be made for), Milton is a name to keep an eye on for day three. I think coaches will know within a year of working with him whether or not he can be a guy. That Tennessee offense is something else and while some will say it is too simple to project potential NFL success from, it can actually mean Milton has ability between the ears we don’t know about yet. Milton’s tools are as good as it gets. If the processing can catch up and his lower body can get more consistent, he’s 90% there. Some are fully out on Milton, I’m not. The NYG quarterback situation, if they don’t go QB early, is an ideal spot for a guy like Milton if you’re ok with three quarterbacks on the 53 and waving goodbye to Tommy Cutlets.
NFL Comparison: Jeff Driskel / WAS
NFL Ceiling: Carson Wentz / KC
8. Michael Pratt – Tulane – 6’2 / 217
Grade: 74
Four-year starter. All-AAC three straight years including first team honors in 2023 along with winning the Conference Offensive Player of the Year Award. Pratt turned the Tulane program around during his time under center. They had not reached double-digit wins since 1998 and they went 2-10 during Pratt’s first full season as the starter. He ended his career with two straight double digit-win seasons and a Cotton Bowl win over USC in January of 2023. His consistent ascent as a quarterback puts proof to the amount of work he puts in off the field. He is a plus-athlete and hard-nosed competitor that has the ability to lead through example. There are questions about his hip rotation and general feel for coverages, but the physical ability is there to be a true dual threat at the next level.
*Pratt is the kind of backup that can come in for a few weeks when your starter goes down with an injury and keeps it together. He can lead your team to a couple wins. I see some Josh Dobbs in his game but in terms of developing him into anything more, I’m not sure there is enough on tape to project anything more. The way he approaches his game and the mental side is ideal for any quarterback room, however. And the fact he put an entire program on his back and got it out of the basement means something. He can be a leader, one that makes a real difference beyond playing on the field.
NFL Comparison: Brandon Allen / SF
NFL Ceiling: Sam Howell / SEA
9. Spencer Rattler – South Carolina – 6’0 / 211
Grade: 74
Four-year starter. Spent three years at Oklahoma prior to transferring to South Carolina for his final two seasons. Following his redshirt season in 2019, Rattler burst on the scene in 2020, winning the Big 12 Offensive Newcomer of the Year Award and first team All-Conference honors. He went 15-2 as a starter under Lincoln Riley. However, in 2021 he was benched week six for Caleb Williams. In total, Rattler started 42 games between the two programs. He won the team-MVP award both seasons with South Carolina and set a single season record for both completions and completion percentage. He is a gifted thrower with a lot of pro traits already developed in his game. The footwork, power created from his base, and pure arm talent all scream NFL starter. There is a lot of unknown to his game despite the heavy amount of experience. He rarely threw the ball deep and did not have a lot of success when doing so. He is undersized and he does not have standout athleticism. Rattler projects to a quality backup at the next level that has the arm talent and swagger to start if he can develop and hide the shortcomings he could not extinguish over the 42 college starts.
*There is a ton of love for Rattler around the league. It really seems like he is heading toward a round two slot. I can’t get there on him. There are too many components beyond looking good when you throw that matter to me. He falls below average in multiple areas of what I look for and there were some immaturity concerns that centered around him thinking he was better than he was. That did not factor into his grade, but it did help break the tie between a few guys. Rattler will look good enough to get you excited, but once the filters come off the finished product won’t be enough.
NFL Comparison: Bailey Zappe / NE
NFL Ceiling: Baker Mayfield / TB
10. Jordan Travis – Florida State – 6’1 / 200
Grade: 74
Sixth year senior. Four-year starter. All-ACC in both 2023 and 2022, first team in 2023. Won the ACC Offensive Player of the Year Award in 2023. Travis transferred to Florida State from Louisville in 2019 and leaves the storied program as one of the most accomplished and productive quarterbacks in its history. He set records in career touchdowns and total offense in addition to finishing atop the quarterback rushing record book and second in passing. His late-season ankle injury ended his final season early and hampered his pre-draft process. He proved to be capable of leading an offense and creating on his own with both his legs and arm. The creative playmaker protected the ball, came up big in clutch situations, and led by example. There are multiple physical shortcomings to his game that do limit his ceiling, but this will be a quality addition to anyone’s quarterback room and should be in the league for a long time as an athletically-biased backup.
*If you liked Bryce Young last year – you have to at least somewhat like Travis. There is a lot of Steph Curry in their games; undersized but slippery, weak but tough to get hands on, and always ready to fire even when he isn’t fully lined up. Travis’ significant broken leg suffered late in the year should keep him off the field 100% until training camp but that won’t impact the grade. He will be drafted to provide depth and in most cases, he will be the third guy. Is there potential for more? Yes. Travis has the gamer-trait in him that I’ve been drawn to since 2022. He is a quiet-leader type that teammates respond well to. If NYG wants to wait until the round 5/6 area for a new quarterback, Travis is on my short list of guys I want that I believe will be around.
NFL Comparison: John Wolford / TB
NFL Ceiling: Case Keenum / HOU
11. Kedon Slovis – BYU – 6’2 / 223
Grade: 71
Five-year starter. Spent three seasons at USC, where he won Pac 12 Freshman of the Year in 2019 and earned first team All-Pac 12 honors in 2020. Transferred to Pittsburgh in 2022 before ending up at Brigham Young in 2023. Slovis was heading for stardom after a historic true freshman season for one of the most followed college programs in the nation. It only declined from there to the point where he lost his job in 2021. He replaced Kenny Pickett at Pittsburgh but never quite took off, prompting the second transfer. Slovis’ completion percentage decreased all five years of his career. The primary concern is that he did not progress and there is a credible durability concern. He is an underrated athlete, however, and there are a lot of fundamentals to the position that look natural and consistent to the point where he can project to back up duty for years.
*Rewind back to 2019, the year in which he looked like a first rounder, and I was initially thinking this could be the next Josh Rosen! Yes, that Josh Rosen. Yes, arguably my worst miss as an evaluator at the quarterback position. That said, maybe the projection in 2019 does end up being accurate. Rosen is currently holding on for dear life as a backup and that is where I end up slotting Slovis. This is a guy that tested athletically much better than I anticipated. He looks good in workouts and has a very clean, mature way about him on and off the field. Things just don’t seem to click when he gets pushed away from his point. Despite the experience, Slovis never quite matched what we saw in 2019. Multiple programs but the same shortcomings. He can stick somewhere as a backup, though.
12. Devin Leary – Kentucky – 6’1 / 215
Grade: 71
Sixth-year senior. Five-year starter. Spent five seasons at North Carolina State before transferring to Kentucky in 2023. He suffered season ending injuries in both 2022 (shoulder) and 2020 (fibula). His best season came in 2021 where he broke the program record set by Philip Rivers for passing touchdowns. The highly experienced, tough-minded signal caller has the arm talent to make it at the next level. He has a small, but thick frame and a fast release. The accuracy woes led to a career high in interceptions and career low in completion percentage in his one season in the SEC. The starting point is strong enough to warrant a third string job for Leary, but he will need to prove he is more the 2021 version of himself than the 2023 one fast if he wants to stick to a roster long-term.
*Everyone that watches Leary throw the ball is impressed. Everyone. He can spin it as well as anyone. I’ve been keeping an eye on him since 2021 where he really caught fire and there were rumblings about him declaring for the draft. 2022 did not pan out. The transfer to Kentucky, replacing eventual second rounder Will Levis was a gamble, one with huge upside, also did not pan out. Leary is the kind of guy that looks better in workouts than on film. His response to pressure has never been good and he has enough experience in multiple systems with some solid-enough talent surrounding him to dampen his projection. Backup life is for him, one without much upside to be more.
13. Sam Hartman – Notre Dame – 6’1 / 211
Grade: 70
Sixth-year senior. Five-year starter. All-ACC in 2022 and 2021 before transferring to Notre Dame for 2023. Left Wake Forest as the all-time leader in yards, completions, and touchdowns and finished second all-time in ACC career yards. Hartman is a free-spirit type quarterback that will take chances, play strong against pressure, and bounce back from adversity. Hartman was one of only five FBS true freshmen to start week one in 2018 before losing his job a year later. Hartman won the job again in 2020 and never looked back. This is a guy that played well in multiple systems and was often playing against defenses more talented than what he was working with offensively. He won two separate bowl game MVP awards and has an immense amount of experience under his belt. Physically, Hartman can throw the deep ball with strength and precision. Mentally, he is the coachable type and brings a level of toughness to the team with the way he plays. He will be a backup that elevates the room but lacks the upside of anything more.
*Hartman does just enough to keep him in the discussion. He is a good kid, and he is the kind of guy that raises up the quarterback room behind closed doors. The experience he has as the poster boy of multiple college program shows the needed and desired maturity coaches want from their quarterbacks. When push comes to shove, I don’t think the talent is enough to project anywhere past third string.
14. Carter Bradley – South Alabama – 6’3 / 218
Grade: 68
Sixth-year senior. Three-year starter. Two-time All-Sun Belt. Spent four seasons at Toledo before transferring to South Alabama in 2022. Son of Colts Defensive Coordinator Gus Bradley. Carter never fully held the starting gig at Toledo but he did play a credible amount of snaps his final three seasons. He set a single season school record in his first year with South Alabama right away, putting himself on the NFL radar. While 2023 did not meet expectations, Bradley continued to build his reputation as a guy that can make every NFL throw while handling the mental capacity the position demands. The NFL lineage helps strengthen the notion.
*There is not much to get overly excited about with Bradley, but there is a safe feel to his game that was also seen at the Senior Bowl. He knows when to take chances and when to take the single. He plays smart. His knowledge of the game alone is worth looking at because that backup quarterback, in some cases, can be just as much of a coaching staff add-on.
15. Tanner Mordecai – Wisconsin – 6’2 / 210
Grade: 68
Sixth year senior. Three-year starter. Spent three seasons at Oklahoma before transferring to SMU, where he spent two years. Finished off at Wisconsin in 2023. All-AAC in 2021. Mordecai has had statistical successs in air-raid type offensive systems. He threw over 70 touchdowns and 7,000 yards over a two-year span. He can sling it and the athletic ability is up there with some of the best in the class. When he got matched up against a tougher schedule in the Big Ten, Mordecai did not raise his level of play. While he still has the occasional flash and his ability to run is always a threat, Mordecai proved that his ceiling is too low to credibly project anything more than a backup.
*This is a kid I found myself wanting to root for. In evaluation, you always need to be careful with a situation like that. It can hide the truth. The truth is Mordecai was in a QB-friendly system for years and it created a lot of production for him. He also turned the ball over too often in that system as well. I always speak about how I like Jayden Daniels ascending after transferring a level up to the SEC. Mordecai did the opposite at Wisconsin. The small hands factor into the equation as well but I still think he is worth a shot in training camp because the talent has always, and still is, there.
16-20
16. John Rhys Plumlee – Central Florida – 6’0 / 200: 67
17. Taulia Tagovailoa – Maryland – 5’10/202: 67
18. Jack Plummer – Louisville – 6’4 / 216: 67
19. Austin Reed – Western Kentucky – 6’1 / 220: 67
20. Jason Bean – Kansas – 6’1 / 184: 65
NYG APPROACH
The discussion that won’t go away. I don’t get to BBI much from January through March – but every time I do I see multiple threads on Daniel Jones and the future of the Giants quarterback position. The majority of fans seem ready to move on. The front office has been aggressive with their pursuit of scouting and information gathering around the quarterbacks in this class. And Joe Schoen did put in an out of the contract he signed him to after 2024. It is an expensive one, but nothing worth avoiding for financial reasons alone. So, where do they go with this top-six slot in the draft? Ironically, the same slot they chose Jones from in the 2019 NFL Draft.
I was skeptical that, after the seesaw relationship between this front office and Jones, that Schoen would pull the plug just six games (in a horrid situation) after signing him to the largest contract in franchise history. And to be real, there is a small(er) part of me that still feels that way. Do they believe in Jones? Hard to imagine especially with the two serious injuries suffered in 2023 alone. Does that mean they will go all-in on a new quarterback in 2024 which also means likely passing on a blue-chip receiver (arguably the top need on this team outside of QB)? That is where I’m coming from. NYG can punt on quarterback if their guy isn’t there and still walk away with a true nucleus player at a game-altering position. This would leave the future of this franchise on unstable ground, but whatever they end up doing in 2025 at the position would have a head start should they have a true number one target and a few solid accessory pieces to work with.
Now, if they do go quarterback with #6 overall (or higher with a trade up), who’s it gonna be? Here is where I currently see it:
Williams and Daniels are off the board
Minnesota is going to trade up for Maye or McCarthy
New England is 50/50 on taking Maye or McCarthy
So, odds are without a trade up, NYG will not get one of the top four quarterbacks. The only way I see it happening is if the Pats don’t want one. I do think it is possible they go the long-term route and build the supporting nucleus with Joe Alt or Marvin Harrison Jr. That would be best case scenario for NYG because even if they get leapfrogged by MIN, they still have the leftover between Maye/McCarthy. I have my preference, and it is the latter. But even with that, I don’t see “special”. I do see “better”. I do see “cheaper”. But keep in mind when it comes to that cheaper label, the economic advantage of the rookie quarterback window is only 2-3 years. They’re paying Jones big money in 2024 and the cap penalty for cutting him in 2025 is near $25 million. This situation is so much more complicated than it needed to be, much more than we want it to be.
So, such as in life, try to come up with simple solutions that chip away at the most glaring problems. The glaring problem on this roster both short and long term is a low ceiling quarterback situation in a league that is run by elite quarterbacks. NYG does not have one. They will not have the possibility of one until a new face comes in. NYG also has a shot at an elite wide receiver. The priority is the former and a sweet consolation prize is the latter. They are in the middle of a five-year rebuild with some key pieces in place. That said, they still are very far away from being a credible contender and because of the money already designated for Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence, they can’t afford to sell multiple future premium draft slots for a good, not great, quarterback prospect. The draft is where they need to build from with multiple doubles, triples, and maybe a couple of home runs.
NYG needs to stay at 6. Coin flip between the elite receiver & good, not great, quarterback. I do not see NYG being very competitive in 2025 so it could be in their best interest to move around the rest of draft weekend in an effort to pick up extra bullets for a trade up in 2025. That is my conclusion.
You da man!
You da man!
Your write-up on what the Giants approach should be regarding QB is simply fantastic. It lays it all out there in very realistic, stark terms. If Joe Schoen had any doubts as to where he stands and what his options are (which I doubt), all he needs to do is read your dead-on, perceptive write-up!
I'd take McCarthy at 6 if he's there. I do get the concerns with trading up. You really do need to trade up for special, but if there isn't special in this class, sit tight.
No all-pro projections for any of these guys is interesting especially with the hype Williams has gotten.
Just reinforces my wish we could snag Daniels, but it ain’t likely happening.
If for whatever reason, Minny does not trade with NE or AZ and McCarthy is there, would you consider trading #6 for #11, #23 and 2025 #1 or #2? (or #11 and 2025 #1 and #2)
They can still get Thomas at #11 and maybe Penix at #23 or a CB.
Or a stud WR!!!
Agree totally.....do not mortgage the future!
On another angle,
I actually liked Drew Lock more than Jones in that Draft. Although, having the tools, he proved he didn't have the head.....I liked what he showed last year.....and if Daboll truly a QB whisperer.....do you see any shot Drew Lock can turn into a viable QB at 28?
I don't think it's a very complicated or cap prohibitive exercise to cut Jones.
It simply comes down to 1) ability to move into position to replace him or 2) the terrifying prospect Jones is there guy.
I do also think the rookie QB window is overstated. You are trying to find a clear upgrade at the position, the cap shouldn't factor in. You don't keep a subpar player around because you can't optimize the rookie QB window.
I still can't get over the QB we all watched play for Michigan last fall is getting these types of grades and rankings.
Suggesting JJM was a first rounder last November would have been somewhat comical imv, and now he is begin tossed around as a guy we probably have to burn draft capital if we want to secure him in the top 5 picks of the entire draft.
Amazing.
I don't get the JJM grade being higher though. To me, the "special" ceiling just isn't there with JJM. I see much more Daniel Jones than I do Justin Herbert in JJM. So I remain extremely worried that if he is there at six, the Giants will make another colossal mistake and reach for a high floor / low ceiling guy for the second time in five years. Just another case of "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" insanity for the battered fans of this franchise...
But I very much agree with your conclusion that there is absolutely no way you trade up for anyone in this draft. And I would not trade down either, passing on a high grade blue chip wide receiver for a larger quantity of ok players. To me, BPA should still be the mantra for the entire 2024 draft since this roster remains one of the worst in the NFL and one player, even an upgrade to a better but not elite quarterback, will not change a thing for this franchise.
Thanks again for all you do here Sy!
If the Giants have conviction on a guy - they have to get him. We will not be viably competitive without that guy. Sy has conviction on Daniels, only marginally so on JJ and Maye.Some dumb fans like me think Penix will be a star in the league. I’ll say this - I think we’ll get more than one long term star QB from this draft. Joe Schoen - go get the guy you believe in.That has to be the Giants approach IMO.
Sit not see
Thanks Sy!
Leave em here - I will get to them
I listened to your 90 minute podcast yesterday
It was fabulous
I’m for one not drafting the QB this year and see what Jones can do with an improved offensive line and I’m all for giving Neal one more year and that’s it
I think a trade down or two to accumulate additional second round picks to fill out the roster is a must
WR Brian Thomas will be a top flight receiver in this league and if he can be had in the late teens or early 20s that would be a steal
By trading down and hopefully accumulating two additional second round picks
I would draft
Tvondre Sweat Him and Dex would solve the run defense problem
Cooper Beebe for LG next to Thomas
Kyree Jackson. CB Oregon. Sleeper guy here who not many are talking about except for you on your podcast. He’s your CB2
Let me know your thoughts this afternoon and thanks so much again for all the work you do
Would be happy with any of the top 4. Where I disagree with you is regarding moving away. While you are correct the Giants aren't one player away, QB is the most important position on the field and there are 4 very good prospects in this one. Giants may not be in the position next year to get a top one. Ultimately, I would like to see a small trade up to 4 or 5. Wouldn't do a 1 to get that high, but would certainly take more than a 3.
I don't get the JJM grade being higher though. To me, the "special" ceiling just isn't there with JJM. I see much more Daniel Jones than I do Justin Herbert in JJM. So I remain extremely worried that if he is there at six, the Giants will make another colossal mistake and reach for a high floor / low ceiling guy for the second time in five years. Just another case of "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" insanity for the battered fans of this franchise...
But I very much agree with your conclusion that there is absolutely no way you trade up for anyone in this draft. And I would not trade down either, passing on a high grade blue chip wide receiver for a larger quantity of ok players. To me, BPA should still be the mantra for the entire 2024 draft since this roster remains one of the worst in the NFL and one player, even an upgrade to a better but not elite quarterback, will not change a thing for this franchise.
Thanks again for all you do here Sy!
This post just shows why it's so hard to evaluate QB. People get so worked up in who they like as prospects. Drafting McCarthy would not be a colossal mistake. Not close. You just don't like him as a prospect, Sy does. You like Maye more, so to you that isn't a colossal mistake. Sy thinks Maye brings more risk.
On the other hand, you say not to trade up for anyone in the draft, but if the special upside for Maye is realized with Daboll, you should absolutely trade up. It's not like 2025 is guaranteed to provide better QB prospects.
If anything should be learned from Jones, it's not to have such a long leash and talk yourselves into the player. And then pay the player a ridiculous contract.
The guy absolutely jumps off the screen as a passer and a runner.
I think there is a set of naive fans who see his running highlights and assume he's not a good pocket passer. Which is ridiculous.
Would be happy with any of the top 4. Where I disagree with you is regarding moving away. While you are correct the Giants aren't one player away, QB is the most important position on the field and there are 4 very good prospects in this one. Giants may not be in the position next year to get a top one. Ultimately, I would like to see a small trade up to 4 or 5. Wouldn't do a 1 to get that high, but would certainly take more than a 3.
To me, there is no question we will be in a position to get a QB next April. The problem is, the draft eligible QB’s won’t be very good. Sanders, Ewers, Carson Beck, etc? No thanks.
Exactly. You can't go into it assuming picking a quarterback is a life sentence. Otherwise you can also get stuck in the Great being the enemy of good trap.
It takes as many swings as it takes. And it's OK to walk away from a bad or average QB.
Lots of players don't work out at every position. There's nothing precious about the QB in that sense.
There are four to five QBs in this draft with every opportunity to be better than Jones.
I don't get the JJM grade being higher though. To me, the "special" ceiling just isn't there with JJM. I see much more Daniel Jones than I do Justin Herbert in JJM. So I remain extremely worried that if he is there at six, the Giants will make another colossal mistake and reach for a high floor / low ceiling guy for the second time in five years. Just another case of "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" insanity for the battered fans of this franchise...
But I very much agree with your conclusion that there is absolutely no way you trade up for anyone in this draft. And I would not trade down either, passing on a high grade blue chip wide receiver for a larger quantity of ok players. To me, BPA should still be the mantra for the entire 2024 draft since this roster remains one of the worst in the NFL and one player, even an upgrade to a better but not elite quarterback, will not change a thing for this franchise.
Thanks again for all you do here Sy!
So far Mike, I see a good QB in Herbert. I do not see special. With the great WRs he had, what did they do? Yes his line was a mess - welcome to the NFL.
This in not a knock on Herbert who has talent, I just do not see "special".
What we do at QB depends on how the draft falls, every year there are surprises. We desperately need to draft a solid replacement QB, but I also agree that we shouldn't force a Ricky Williams type move. I would imagine JS has looked at many possible moves up and down, and if there is a reasonable scenario to get a QB, he should pull the trigger. Every year we punt is another year wasted IMHO.
Again.
Quote:
This is tough to reconcile since Herbert was graded at 82 and he is unquestionably "special". So I get and agree with the Maye grade, but I still see him as having "special" upside despite a disappointing season in 2023 and would be thrilled with the Giants selecting him at six.
I don't get the JJM grade being higher though. To me, the "special" ceiling just isn't there with JJM. I see much more Daniel Jones than I do Justin Herbert in JJM. So I remain extremely worried that if he is there at six, the Giants will make another colossal mistake and reach for a high floor / low ceiling guy for the second time in five years. Just another case of "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" insanity for the battered fans of this franchise...
But I very much agree with your conclusion that there is absolutely no way you trade up for anyone in this draft. And I would not trade down either, passing on a high grade blue chip wide receiver for a larger quantity of ok players. To me, BPA should still be the mantra for the entire 2024 draft since this roster remains one of the worst in the NFL and one player, even an upgrade to a better but not elite quarterback, will not change a thing for this franchise.
Thanks again for all you do here Sy!
This post just shows why it's so hard to evaluate QB. People get so worked up in who they like as prospects. Drafting McCarthy would not be a colossal mistake. Not close. You just don't like him as a prospect, Sy does. You like Maye more, so to you that isn't a colossal mistake. Sy thinks Maye brings more risk.
On the other hand, you say not to trade up for anyone in the draft, but if the special upside for Maye is realized with Daboll, you should absolutely trade up. It's not like 2025 is guaranteed to provide better QB prospects.
If anything should be learned from Jones, it's not to have such a long leash and talk yourselves into the player. And then pay the player a ridiculous contract.
But if there is zero consensus on these two guys, then you simply can't take the risk of reaching and making a colossal mistake frankly on either one of them.
I have no problem if the Giants pass on Maye for one of the receivers because of Sy's lower grade. Maye could absolutely be a "Darnold like" bust. But reaching for the wrong quarterback is the absolute worst thing an NFL franchise can do and precisely what Gettleman did with DJ.
And saying that if Schoen gets it wrong just means he will get fired sooner is not a legitimate solution to the problem. Who cares if Schoen gets fired next year? The fans would be stuck with a disaster at quarterback for years to come. Just like we have been with DJ, suffering in the endless cess pool of Gettleman's mistakes while he lives a comfortable "Life of Reilly" dodging any accountability whatsoever.
Quote:
This is tough to reconcile since Herbert was graded at 82 and he is unquestionably "special". So I get and agree with the Maye grade, but I still see him as having "special" upside despite a disappointing season in 2023 and would be thrilled with the Giants selecting him at six.
I don't get the JJM grade being higher though. To me, the "special" ceiling just isn't there with JJM. I see much more Daniel Jones than I do Justin Herbert in JJM. So I remain extremely worried that if he is there at six, the Giants will make another colossal mistake and reach for a high floor / low ceiling guy for the second time in five years. Just another case of "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" insanity for the battered fans of this franchise...
But I very much agree with your conclusion that there is absolutely no way you trade up for anyone in this draft. And I would not trade down either, passing on a high grade blue chip wide receiver for a larger quantity of ok players. To me, BPA should still be the mantra for the entire 2024 draft since this roster remains one of the worst in the NFL and one player, even an upgrade to a better but not elite quarterback, will not change a thing for this franchise.
Thanks again for all you do here Sy!
So far Mike, I see a good QB in Herbert. I do not see special. With the great WRs he had, what did they do? Yes his line was a mess - welcome to the NFL.
This in not a knock on Herbert who has talent, I just do not see "special".
Wow. Ok. Then let's hope Harbaugh agrees with you and trades Herbert for two number one picks to the Giants so he can lock up both JJM and Nabers in the same draft! A win/win for the ages!
What we do at QB depends on how the draft falls, every year there are surprises. We desperately need to draft a solid replacement QB, but I also agree that we shouldn't force a Ricky Williams type move. I would imagine JS has looked at many possible moves up and down, and if there is a reasonable scenario to get a QB, he should pull the trigger. Every year we punt is another year wasted IMHO.
Agree 100%.
If McCarthy is picked at six, I will assume that it isn't a reach, it's a conviction.
Also, notice where McCarthy is getting mocked, regularly in the top ten. There is more hype around him in the league than Jones.
Completely different IMO.
Jones was a bad pick. Not just at 6.
They will practically give that player 3 years, and then make a decision.
No very different than Evan Neal. Top 7 draft resource and top 7 salary expended to acquire the player. He's been plagued by durability and performance issues. And if he's not markedly better this year, there stands a chance he won't be a Giant in 2025.
That's not a tragedy.
The Giants simply need to ask these questions:
1) Is having a good quarterback important?
2) Do I have a good quarterback?
3) Do I believe I can make one of the quarterbacks I have a chance at good?
No superstar WR is going to make Lock or Jones better QB's. At best, at his truly best, Jones threw 15 TD passes and ran in 7. But, teams aren't falling for his runs anymore and coming off an ACL and second neck issue (much bigger concern) you can't count on him running anyway. Lock provides none of Jones's running ability so that means we would be solely relying on his ability to throw...Heck no..
You turn a team around by fixing the QB situation. We have conerstones on both lines, we have younger talent and lots of young players throughout the roster, we need a QB..
Maye or JJM needs to be acquired!!
Seems like a fairly big drop after the first 2 guys
The rest of the comps you give out are scary for a #6 pick; Gannon, DJ, Winston, etc.
Is it just Harbaugh supporting his guy? Do you think he believes that? If indeed, JJM at 21, plays QB better than the others... then IMHO, he is worth the gamble of moving to 4 or 5.
I think we need to take a swing at McCarthy or Maye.
I also think we need to be careful not to underrate what next year's class may be.
My point here, as much as we want to "fix" the QB position, is things have to align themselves correctly to do so.
The thing that bothers me is we only have six picks on a team that needs a lot of help. We really can't afford to be trading away current and future picks unless we are damn sure we are getting a stud QB.
I also think we need to be careful not to underrate what next year's class may be.
My point here, as much as we want to "fix" the QB position, is things have to align themselves correctly to do so.
The thing that bothers me is we only have six picks on a team that needs a lot of help. We really can't afford to be trading away current and future picks unless we are damn sure we are getting a stud QB.
It doesn’t matter which QB we take - we still have below average talent at WR, RB, and possibly TE if Waller retires- and that doesn’t include the huge question mark on the OL.
If we draft a QB at 6 or earlier - Schoens job may just get a bit harder.
If they have a conviction on a QB, or someone they like falls to 6, they should take him now and not think "there's always next year!"
I also think we need to be careful not to underrate what next year's class may be.
My point here, as much as we want to "fix" the QB position, is things have to align themselves correctly to do so.
The thing that bothers me is we only have six picks on a team that needs a lot of help. We really can't afford to be trading away current and future picks unless we are damn sure we are getting a stud QB.
And what do we do next year when we're picking sixth again and can't get a top guy? Punt on the decision until 26?
Rinse and repeat? QB Hell......
We don’t know how the draft is going to shake out, but the draft will really start when the Pats are on the clock @ 3 IMO. Will be interesting to see with all the extensive research Giants have done on these QBs if they will be able to get their guy or not. Hypothetically, if say the Pats select a QB at 3, and it isn’t the Giants top target I would think ARZ would prefer to trade with us as they can still land one of the elite WRs. I know Minny has a lot more 1st round picks to offer, but they are all in The gray area of the draft and you are punting away taking a true blue chip talent player.
I think the same can be said for the Pats, I just don’t see them trading down so far when they are in position to land blue chip talent. Pats historically have always loved to trade down, but that was when BB was running things and he has an absolutely terrible draft record. Will be interesting to see how things change over there, but I don’t see the Pats realistically trading down when they are even more deprived of a solution at QB than we are. Brisset signing Seems like perfect chance for them to add one of Maye or JJ to develop behind him until ready.
If Giants miss out on the QBs I am fine with them landing one of the elite WRs. It truly will be interesting to see how things shake out. It sucks knowing 2024 is going to be a wash year, it will suck more if Giants miss out on their QB target as we all know this team is lost at the position and unless they find a true diamond in the rough on Day 2 that no one saw as a solution we are likely right back in the same spot this time next year…feels a little hopeless for a desperate franchise.
I also think we need to be careful not to underrate what next year's class may be.
My point here, as much as we want to "fix" the QB position, is things have to align themselves correctly to do so.
The thing that bothers me is we only have six picks on a team that needs a lot of help. We really can't afford to be trading away current and future picks unless we are damn sure we are getting a stud QB.
Agree but every year there are a number of teams looking for a QB, so next year could be more difficult to get an upgrade at QB. Starting at 6 is a pretty good spot to make a move.
I also think we need to be careful not to underrate what next year's class may be.
My point here, as much as we want to "fix" the QB position, is things have to align themselves correctly to do so.
The thing that bothers me is we only have six picks on a team that needs a lot of help. We really can't afford to be trading away current and future picks unless we are damn sure we are getting a stud QB.
What do you consider aligning? Sy has graded 4 first round QBs (borderline 5 with Penix). The Giants are picking 6th. That seems like good alignment.
The assumption can't be to pick a QB when the Giants have a top 3 pick, that likely won't happen. So, they'll likely be facing the same situation next year.
Mahomes & Allen were significant trade ups. Sy gave Mahomes a 76 grade. Sy gave Allen a 78 grade. Again, both trade ups.
People want sure things at QB in order to draft. They don't exist.
Seems like a fairly big drop after the first 2 guys
The rest of the comps you give out are scary for a #6 pick; Gannon, DJ, Winston, etc.
Haha I can see the comps to Winston and Eli in arm strength and throwing ability. But Maye is certainly no statue, the kid can create with his legs really well. I actually like that he hung in the pocket always keeping eyes down field looking to make a pass and not take off with his legs.
I also have a lot of faith in Daboll's ability to get the best from a QB.
The easiest path to get from where they are to championship contender is better quarterback play. Give it a half of a season and I think magically all of the incumbent players are much better with a good quarterback.
I hope They are willing to roll the dice on Penix, if the top 4 are gone, I’m ok with 6, you want to talk upside, I think he has a ceiling that can match Daniels.
I don’t want to lose that #1 pick for 25, I think that may be a top 3 pick.
Wow. Ok. Then let's hope Harbaugh agrees with you and trades Herbert for two number one picks to the Giants so he can lock up both JJM and Nabers in the same draft! A win/win for the ages!
Silly over the top reaction. I didn't say Herbert was bad, I said I have not seen "special". Two years ago with all those great WRs, he had the same ypa as Jones, just threw the ball 50% more to get his yardage. He has had numerous injuries too. He is clearly superior to Jones and some other starters. Yes, his line is bad, but we have been told a superior QB triumphs over a bad line and gets it done (see Joe Burrow).
Herbert is a good QB and would love to have him over Jones(duh!), but so far he is nowhere near Burrow, Allen or Mahomes. Is it coaching? Is it offensive scheme? Or is it he is just not as good as some insist - just a 2nd level QB? I truly do not know.
I also think we need to be careful not to underrate what next year's class may be.
My point here, as much as we want to "fix" the QB position, is things have to align themselves correctly to do so.
The thing that bothers me is we only have six picks on a team that needs a lot of help. We really can't afford to be trading away current and future picks unless we are damn sure we are getting a stud QB.
Even if next year’s class is better than expected, the NYG will likely be drafting just outside the sweet spot, as usual, and we’re going through this same shit next year.
I hope They are willing to roll the dice on Penix, if the top 4 are gone, I’m ok with 6, you want to talk upside, I think he has a ceiling that can match Daniels.
I don’t want to lose that #1 pick for 25, I think that may be a top 3 pick.
It’s possible that they may think there are more than four quarterbacks that they could possibly like and they can wait at six. Maybe it is Penix. I don’t think they want to mortgage the future and are very much aware of this.
As much as I would love to see Jones replaced - I don't see it as being with the top 4 in this draft
Two of them I would not draft -- Williams and Maye -- they both smell like Johnny Manzel and Sam Darnell to me
and I agree with your value assessments as well.
I am warming up to the idea of the WR choice and it's value - though my preference is for a Dallas Turner in Round 1. I can live with a development QB in the later rounds if the QB can be developed. I was encouraged with Cutlet's performance this year. It makes me think that Daboll and his crew can take the right developmental QB and develop him, so that gives me some faith in this situation as it stands. Cutlet clearly has what I see as long term focus issues (as in "[[[Squirrel !]]]"), and Daboll and Co still got three wins out of him.
So I am faced with having to trust the FO. I really don't have problems with the picks the FO has made to date. Given the drafts that occurred I can justify the Evans pick. I think it was a good pick; as was Thibs; as was Banks... and it will be interesting to see how these guys grow this year, they all three merit some patience. I also like the Robinson and Schmidt picks in round two. I love the Hyatt pick in round three and clearly the jury is still out on G/C Ezudu and Flott in rd 3 two drafts ago, but mostly you all loved the Ezudu pick when it was made. If you look at the day three picks from this FO -- they have gotten good values out of those rounds TE, RB, CB, S, DT, LBs that have all seen/had playing time and also impact. Also this FO has clearly placed position valuations and stuck with them in the drafting rounds (.ie Safety, TE and RB not being drafted in the early rounds)
There was a stretch of 3rd round picks over 10 years prior to this regime that bombed out -- and only a handful of 3rd day picks over that ten year period panning out at all. From 2011 to 2017 our first rounders ranged from pedestrian to plain old bad luck like David Wilson.
Lol -- but I digress -- thanks for your comments Dave
Not taking the 5th-best QB at #6.
Not trading away next year's #1 unless you hare convinced you are drafting a top-8 QB in the NFL.
Quote:
Wow. Ok. Then let's hope Harbaugh agrees with you and trades Herbert for two number one picks to the Giants so he can lock up both JJM and Nabers in the same draft! A win/win for the ages!
Silly over the top reaction. I didn't say Herbert was bad, I said I have not seen "special". Two years ago with all those great WRs, he had the same ypa as Jones, just threw the ball 50% more to get his yardage. He has had numerous injuries too. He is clearly superior to Jones and some other starters. Yes, his line is bad, but we have been told a superior QB triumphs over a bad line and gets it done (see Joe Burrow).
Herbert is a good QB and would love to have him over Jones(duh!), but so far he is nowhere near Burrow, Allen or Mahomes. Is it coaching? Is it offensive scheme? Or is it he is just not as good as some insist - just a 2nd level QB? I truly do not know.
Chargers are perhaps the most cursed team in the league with injuries over the same period of time as us. I see Herbert in a similar situation as Stafford was with the Lions, just a multi-factor of things around him that are not his fault (bad coaches, bad luck, injurieS to key players, etc.) .
But that argument could be used to not to draft a QB every year. The key is to keep trying but not to cling to mistakes once it's clear they are mistakes. You take a chance, give it 2-3 years, and if he's not the guy move on. You don't give the person 5 years and an enormous contract.
Being an Ohio State fan, it would “pain” me to root for JJM if the Giants pick him, but if your professional opinion is that his NFL ceiling is Joe Burrow, I don’t see how you pass him up at 6 and then grab a WR in in round 2. Any team without a QB not named Mahomes, Jackson or Allen would thankfully grab the next Joe Burrow at pick #6.
Thanks again for all you do!
1. Daniels doesn’t attack middle of the field , drops his eyes and looks to run it not pass immediately if his first read is taken away
2. Drake Maye poor throws are footwork issues that might be correctable at next level . Agree?
3..Penix rarely attacks middle of field , and I think has a slow windup/ release ?
If all one had to go one is Bo Nix 2022-23 tape would that elevate his rating ?
Love your clearly worded assessments and willingness to own your evaluations ,. Nobody’s perfect but your humility as an evaluator is a real positive . Thanks again.
You know the point I'm making. If the talent isn't there, you end up with another non-answer at QB while watching Harrison, Nabers, and Odunze become All-Pro studs on other teams.
If your scouts, GM, and HC believe in the QB, you draft him. If they don't, you don't draft him.
Not taking the 5th-best QB at #6.
Not trading away next year's #1 unless you hare convinced you are drafting a top-8 QB in the NFL.
Yes, that's assumed. As you've said, the issue with evaluating QB is that most teams are often wrong. Fans get worked up with the prospects they like, but teams boards could be completely different.
If Maye is QB2 for Schoen, then a trade up probably makes sense. If Maye is QB4, it doesn't. We don't know how Schoen and company view these QBs.
This shit is hard, near impossible. There will never be a perfect situation to draft QB.
I do think Maye missed his previous OC a lot and that was a bigger factor then the talent he had around him.
I agree with you on the other QB's for the most part. I wasn't aware of JJM playing LAX and I think that sport can benefit a QB. Hopefully all the QB's get into good situations to have a chance.
As I've said repeatedly the last few days, much of this out of the Giants hands right now.
They can't control what the Bears, Commanders, Pats, Cardinals, and Chargers will do. They can try to influence the last three teams, but ultimately those teams control the Giants' destiny.
It is very possible that four QBs go in the first four picks and the Giants are rebuffed in their trade-up attempts. It's also possible that those demands by other teams are too expensive (Pats wanting three #1 picks).
If you watch the Nix tape from 2022 at Oregon, especially the first 4 games, his favorite target was Chase Cota (now a WR for the Giants).
Eventually Troy Franklin just took over as the top Duck WR (likely a late first rounder or early second rounder in this year's draft).
Cota finished his 2022 season with 36 catches on balls thrown by Bo Nix.
QB class? Is there anyone who could emerge as an elite
prospect? And is there a QB in this year's group that Daboll
is saying "I WANT THIS GUY NOW"?
As I've said repeatedly the last few days, much of this out of the Giants hands right now.
They can't control what the Bears, Commanders, Pats, Cardinals, and Chargers will do. They can try to influence the last three teams, but ultimately those teams control the Giants' destiny.
It is very possible that four QBs go in the first four picks and the Giants are rebuffed in their trade-up attempts. It's also possible that those demands by other teams are too expensive (Pats wanting three #1 picks).
It’s QB HELL for a reason. We’re in deep.
You know the point I'm making. If the talent isn't there, you end up with another non-answer at QB while watching Harrison, Nabers, and Odunze become All-Pro studs on other teams.
If your scouts, GM, and HC believe in the QB, you draft him. If they don't, you don't draft him.
Sure, I don't think that's controversial. I also don't think it's a great argument for why we shouldn't trade up if possible. But I take your point about it being out of our hands, such is life when you win meaningless games just so your HC feels good about himself going into his third year.
QB class? Is there anyone who could emerge as an elite
prospect? And is there a QB in this year's group that Daboll
is saying "I WANT THIS GUY NOW"?
Here’s your early list. Which guy excites you?
Link - ( New Window )
As I've said repeatedly the last few days, much of this out of the Giants hands right now.
They can't control what the Bears, Commanders, Pats, Cardinals, and Chargers will do. They can try to influence the last three teams, but ultimately those teams control the Giants' destiny.
It is very possible that four QBs go in the first four picks and the Giants are rebuffed in their trade-up attempts. It's also possible that those demands by other teams are too expensive (Pats wanting three #1 picks).
I agree. My point is, a cost that is deemed too high to a might not be to the Giants.
It might come across as outrageous initially to trade 3 first round picks for a QB. But, if they do it and are right in their evaluation no one will care.
But I am starting to slide 180 degrees to the best WR and then possibly trade up back into the first for Bo Nix.
Trading up and missing out on MHJR, Nabers or Odunze + possibly trading away Hyatt to move up really leaves our WR room bare. And if we trade up and get a blah, blah, blah QB....
Grab the sure thing WR, keep Hyatt and shoot for Bo or even Penix and look towards 2025 as Sy points out.
Sy, you are the best and I thank you for your write-ups and opinions. You are to us what Madden was to the NFL in the 80's and 90's. A treasure!
- If four QBs go before the Giants and the the Giants can't or don't want to trade up because it is way too expensive. They "settle" for a WR who may become one of the NFL's best. This is the consolation prize. The Giants then try to drafta project later in this draft or simply try again next year (risky but not necessarily impossible).
- Giants trade down (and keep trading down) to pick up picks this year and possibly next year.
You know the point I'm making. If the talent isn't there, you end up with another non-answer at QB while watching Harrison, Nabers, and Odunze become All-Pro studs on other teams.
If your scouts, GM, and HC believe in the QB, you draft him. If they don't, you don't draft him.
I think the question a lot of us had was whether “the talent” is there, and whether scouts and the league are as high on these QBs as it seems. Based on Sy’s review the answer is yes.
Let’s remove Williams and Daniels from the discussion because odds are they’re gone 1-2. McCarthy with a grade of 84 is one of the highest that Sy have given out in the last 5 years. He is graded above last years first overall pick Bryce Young (83). In the last five drafts, the only guys from previous classes that graded out ahead of him are Trevor Lawrence and Joe Burrow.
If McCarthy is on the board within a range that the Giants can get him, I think he has to be the pick.
The other thing the FO has to consider, and Sy, I would love to hear your opinion on this, if they pass on QB for a WR with the idea that they can be in play for a QB in 2024, how likely are Schoen and Daboll even around to be the ones to make that pick? QBs with a graded like JJ, 84+, are chosen in the top 5 of the draft. The Giants will have to be really bad again in 2024 to be in position to take a guy like that in 2025. If this upcoming season is that big of a disaster, could one of Schoen or Daboll be gone by the time the next draft goes around? After all of the turmoil of this past season, I don’t know that they can gamble on having the luxury to take their QB next year, it feels like they need to take one now or else they are forced to live and die by the decision they made on Daniel Jones.
You know the point I'm making. If the talent isn't there, you end up with another non-answer at QB while watching Harrison, Nabers, and Odunze become All-Pro studs on other teams.
If your scouts, GM, and HC believe in the QB, you draft him. If they don't, you don't draft him.
To some degree, but you have to take some swings given the opportunity.
We already know Schoen and Daboll are far from infallible on scouting QBs otherwise they wouldn't have given Jones that silly deal. So "belief" or "non-belief" in someone needs to be taken with a grain of salt. They are going to have to take some risk/chance on possibly a guy they may not have full conviction on otherwise this ship is just floundering in the ocean.
And WRs becoming studs on other teams will happen regardless of what the Giants do. But until we find a good QB the likelihood probably is any WR we pick isn't go to reach that status anyway.
Andrew Luck,Manning 2x,Trevor Lawrence
Those guys command a trade up....
IMHO
Bo Nix’ ceiling as Houston era Deshaun Watson?!? Yeah, I definitely don’t see that.
I do think there’s something to the idea that nearly all of best NFL quarterbacks faced real adversity on the field during their college careers and that prepared them for a NFL in which few of them are in great situations. That’s my biggest concern with JJ McCarthy. How many of these other guys were able to just hand the ball off every play in the second half of a huge road game? Having it all on your back is a different level of pressure and asking a guy to grow in what could possibly be a rough situation is asking a lot.
GREAT STUFF AS ALWAYS Sy.
If you trade away future #1s, you have to be right or you're really (blanked). Want to know how hard this is? Go back and look at Sy's past QB previews.
We should be so thrilled that the draft isn’t going to go: Williams, Daniels, MHJ, Nabers, Odunze.
I also don't accept the argument that "the WR doesn't matter if you don't have the QB."
Like hell. Don't tell me Larry Fitzgerald didn't matter.
But the absolute worst case scenario for NY is they blow another top 10 pick.
If they could find a way to get one of the top WRs at #, but then also trade back to get either Nix or Penix I think that would be a home run, but I don’t see that happening. I don’t think either of them lasts past #15. I do like the idea of Milton in the 3rd if he is there as a good flyer to see what they have. Honestly this team will probably be drafting top-10 again next year.
The 2024 season is about getting past the Jones era and on to competitive football.
Cosell on JJ - ( New Window )
JJ has plenty of arm talent and protects the football. I need the information gathered at the meetings and dinners. CW and Daniels have more physical ability but I think are more likely to be defeated by adversity. Playing quarterback for the New York Giants NFL in the NFCE is:
Adversity University
I am with Sy, I would draft JJ at 6 like MadPlaid, presented with the same circumstance. I would prefer Odunze and Penix but I cannot guarantee the ability to get him after the WR.
Which QB was prepared best to play in the NFL?
I am impressed my the maturity and leadership at 21.
I have wisdom is awareness of ignorance tattooed on my body for a reason. The ONLY thing I am truly CERTAIN of is that there is more that I don’t know than I know.
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In comment 16459207 The Mike said:
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This is tough to reconcile since Herbert was graded at 82 and he is unquestionably "special". So I get and agree with the Maye grade, but I still see him as having "special" upside despite a disappointing season in 2023 and would be thrilled with the Giants selecting him at six.
I don't get the JJM grade being higher though. To me, the "special" ceiling just isn't there with JJM. I see much more Daniel Jones than I do Justin Herbert in JJM. So I remain extremely worried that if he is there at six, the Giants will make another colossal mistake and reach for a high floor / low ceiling guy for the second time in five years. Just another case of "fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" insanity for the battered fans of this franchise...
But I very much agree with your conclusion that there is absolutely no way you trade up for anyone in this draft. And I would not trade down either, passing on a high grade blue chip wide receiver for a larger quantity of ok players. To me, BPA should still be the mantra for the entire 2024 draft since this roster remains one of the worst in the NFL and one player, even an upgrade to a better but not elite quarterback, will not change a thing for this franchise.
Thanks again for all you do here Sy!
This post just shows why it's so hard to evaluate QB. People get so worked up in who they like as prospects. Drafting McCarthy would not be a colossal mistake. Not close. You just don't like him as a prospect, Sy does. You like Maye more, so to you that isn't a colossal mistake. Sy thinks Maye brings more risk.
On the other hand, you say not to trade up for anyone in the draft, but if the special upside for Maye is realized with Daboll, you should absolutely trade up. It's not like 2025 is guaranteed to provide better QB prospects.
If anything should be learned from Jones, it's not to have such a long leash and talk yourselves into the player. And then pay the player a ridiculous contract.
But if there is zero consensus on these two guys, then you simply can't take the risk of reaching and making a colossal mistake frankly on either one of them.
I doubt Schoen and Daboll (or any other GM/HC) cares about "consensus". It has to come down to how they evaluate each of the QB prospects, their availability, and the cost in draft capital.
If you trade away future #1s, you have to be right or you're really (blanked). Want to know how hard this is? Go back and look at Sy's past QB previews.
Yes I saw, and agree, ideally you hold onto next years first and just give up a 3rd if possible to move up. My worry is that Schoen feels like is job is on the line, and gives up more than he normally would have because he looks at it as either we take the QB this year or I’m not around to take one next year.
I would feel comfortable with McCarthy who was coached by Harbaugh.
I also don't accept the argument that "the WR doesn't matter if you don't have the QB."
Like hell. Don't tell me Larry Fitzgerald didn't matter.
Ok, take an educated swing. With all due respect to the Willis crowd and Sy's rating profile, Willis was a RB who coaches put under center and he had some successes in high school and his second college. He had enormous risk that he would ever develop passing prowess despite some looking at him at the next Lamar Jackson.
But even with a Willis miss, you still have to swing when you are up to bat. The Giants have been up to bat since 2020-21 and they are just letting pitches go by because they chose not to come to the realization their cleanup guy isn't a good hitter.
I would feel comfortable with McCarthy who was coached by Harbaugh.
This has been becoming more and more clear
I have a secret theory that all the QB nonsense is coming from the fans and we could see the 3rd and 4th QBs off the board slip into the late single digits.
But even then, Lamar still gets hurt.
I think that the best use of running as a QB (if you don’t have bionic Josh Allen) was what Aaron Rodgers did in his prime. The running was something he’d dust off on third downs and it very rarely ended with him taking a hit. But good luck finding Aaron Rodgers in his prime.
Maye and McCarthy are miles ahead as prospects.
What I miss?
You might want to revisit his history.
Arizona Cardinals: Larry Fitzgerald's NFL career has been even greater than you think - ( New Window )
I also don't accept the argument that "the WR doesn't matter if you don't have the QB."
Like hell. Don't tell me Larry Fitzgerald didn't matter.
He didn’t matter if you are measuring wins. Fitzgerald won 5 playoff games in a 16 year career, with three of them coming when he had a HoF QB.
The risk here is watching one of these WRs be a fun highlight reel like OBJ was while the team continued to spin its wheels on competing.
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GoDeep just dropped a hint re the WRs.
What I miss?
It's in Rico's thread.
What if he too devolved in 2024 at Michigan?
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GoDeep just dropped a hint re the WRs.
What I miss?
Daboll loves Nabors
Ideally, I'd enjoy seeing your ranking of all positions from easiest to hardest for you (and most scouts) to assess success in the NFL.
Thank you – and great work, as always. I enjoy your writing style as much as the substance of your write-ups.
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I get it. But a bunch of BBIers wanted to "take a swing" at Malik Willis in the 1st round.
I also don't accept the argument that "the WR doesn't matter if you don't have the QB."
Like hell. Don't tell me Larry Fitzgerald didn't matter.
He didn’t matter if you are measuring wins. Fitzgerald won 5 playoff games in a 16 year career, with three of them coming when he had a HoF QB.
The risk here is watching one of these WRs be a fun highlight reel like OBJ was while the team continued to spin its wheels on competing.
Exactly. It took 4 years before Larry Fitzgerald played in a good offense (let alone a good team) and that was with Anquan freakin’ Boldin being the other receiver.
But personally, I'm not taking the 5th quarterback in this draft at #6.
I'm also not trading away next year's #1 (which has a reasonable chance to be a top 10 pick) unless I am absolutely convinced the guy is going to be a top-8 player at his position in the NFL.
What I do is take the All-Pro WR, go with Drew Lock/the Italian Stallion/and later draft pick.
Our first rounder in 2024 is really a play into 2025 regardless of position.
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throwing a lot of passes to him during his primetime years.
You might want to revisit his history. Arizona Cardinals: Larry Fitzgerald's NFL career has been even greater than you think - ( New Window )
LF was tremendous. Probably the second best WR ever behind Rice. His longevity, prowess playing outside and later inside and catching passes from many QBs as his career went on very long is amazing. It still doesn't change fact that he turned into a star early and often with Warner throwing his way, not Daniel Jones or Lock.
I also think we need to be careful not to underrate what next year's class may be.
My point here, as much as we want to "fix" the QB position, is things have to align themselves correctly to do so.
The thing that bothers me is we only have six picks on a team that needs a lot of help. We really can't afford to be trading away current and future picks unless we are damn sure we are getting a stud QB.
This ^
But personally, I'm not taking the 5th quarterback in this draft at #6.
I'm also not trading away next year's #1 (which has a reasonable chance to be a top 10 pick) unless I am absolutely convinced the guy is going to be a top-8 player at his position in the NFL.
What I do is take the All-Pro WR, go with Drew Lock/the Italian Stallion/and later draft pick.
I am not arguing that the Giants have to take a QB at #6. What I am arguing is the point that a WR moves the needle for a team without a QB. It doesn’t. I hope if the Giants do take a WR at #6 (which I would prefer to picking McCarthy) then I hope they will start Lock who will at least attempt to push the ball down the field to Hyatt and MHJ/Nabers/Odunze.
If you are running Jones out there it is like drafting Nabers and tying cinder blocks around his ankles. We can get a WR in round 5 who can run 5 yard hitches for Jones.
I don't know anything about his situation, but his injury history scares me. Part of me says play him, pray he rebounds, then trade him next offseason.
Part of me says, don't risk it. Let him sit to start the season. If Lock looks reasonable, simply change the narrative to "we don't want to make a QB switch at this point" and Jones never plays again for the Giants.
To be honest, I'm ore intrigued by Lock than some of the QBs in this draft.
I also look at this roster and see that this team has no one on offense to scare anyone on defense. No one.
As others smarter than me have pointed out, if you add one of these #1 wide receivers to Hyatt, Robinson, and Slayton, the entire tone of the offense changes. A guy like Harrison, Odunze, or Nabers will make everyone else look better.
I also look at the rest of the roster, look at how many positions the Giants REALLY could use help at in round two: DT, CB, S, OT, OG, TE, RB.
This team can't afford to give away picks.
If you watch football you know what Daniel Jones is. There is no mystery there and there is no “let’s see if…” with him. He is a finished product and that is QB2 on an NFL roster.
You know the point I'm making. If the talent isn't there, you end up with another non-answer at QB while watching Harrison, Nabers, and Odunze become All-Pro studs on other teams.
If your scouts, GM, and HC believe in the QB, you draft him. If they don't, you don't draft him.
Show me the all-pro studs at Without a QB!
If you watch football you know what Daniel Jones is. There is no mystery there and there is no “let’s see if…” with him. He is a finished product and that is QB2 on an NFL roster.
I would be fine with this. Cut DJ as soon as he passes a physical and run with Lock, Cutlets and Milton in this years quarterback room. And if there is any coach in the league who might be able to get something out of Milton, it is Daboll.
But much of Larry Fitzgerald's career was spent with shit.
Calvin Johnson
Cris Carter
Tim Brown
Anquan Boldin
Torry Holt (look at who he played with for most of his career)
Steve Smith
Currently, Garrett Wilson and Terry McLaurin.
I also look at this roster and see that this team has no one on offense to scare anyone on defense. No one.
As others smarter than me have pointed out, if you add one of these #1 wide receivers to Hyatt, Robinson, and Slayton, the entire tone of the offense changes. A guy like Harrison, Odunze, or Nabers will make everyone else look better.
I also look at the rest of the roster, look at how many positions the Giants REALLY could use help at in round two: DT, CB, S, OT, OG, TE, RB.
This team can't afford to give away picks.
My greatest fear though is that Schoen recognizes that drafting a quarterback at six buys him time in his current job. So even if he doesn't have conviction on JJM, he takes him at six for precisely the wrong reason and then we suffer for years again watching them trying to make things work for a middling talent at quarterback...
If the guy(s) you want are gone you take someone else who will improve the team. I'd also take a mid-tier QB guy in the 3/4th rounds (like Milton). I'm ok with taking a flier on a guess in round 3/4 than round 1.
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Blah, blah, blah.
You know the point I'm making. If the talent isn't there, you end up with another non-answer at QB while watching Harrison, Nabers, and Odunze become All-Pro studs on other teams.
If your scouts, GM, and HC believe in the QB, you draft him. If they don't, you don't draft him.
Show me the all-pro studs at Without a QB!
That is not a reason to pass on a near All Pro WR. You have to accumulate top flight talent where you find it. Like saying don't draft a QB because the oline isn't good. Where does it end?
Exactly right.
Now maybe Schoen and Daboll love McCarthy and think he is a special player? If they get him I hope they are right. But if Maye and Daniels are gone and the Giants are on the clock at #6, I will be praying for a WR.
This is pretty much where I am.
I am fine taking any of the "big four" QBs at #6, but I do not want to trade up for any of them, except maybe to #5 for #70. I don't see anything sufficiently special about any of them to justify giving up a ton of draft capital to do so.
If JJM is available at #6, it will be interesting to see if they take one of the "big three" WRs instead, or trade down. JJM might prompt enough interest to get someone to offer a ton of draft capital to move up to #6. I would still probably decline and take him instead.
I agree that Spencer Rattler reminds me of Baker Mayfield. I'd be fine taking him at #70 for that reason if we haven't already taken a QB.
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As I said, the best scenario is the Giants really like McCarthy and he falls to six. But mentally, I am preparing myself for that to not happen.
I also look at this roster and see that this team has no one on offense to scare anyone on defense. No one.
As others smarter than me have pointed out, if you add one of these #1 wide receivers to Hyatt, Robinson, and Slayton, the entire tone of the offense changes. A guy like Harrison, Odunze, or Nabers will make everyone else look better.
I also look at the rest of the roster, look at how many positions the Giants REALLY could use help at in round two: DT, CB, S, OT, OG, TE, RB.
This team can't afford to give away picks.
My greatest fear though is that Schoen recognizes that drafting a quarterback at six buys him time in his current job. So even if he doesn't have conviction on JJM, he takes him at six for precisely the wrong reason and then we suffer for years again watching them trying to make things work for a middling talent at quarterback...
This is a valid concern. In that situation, I would hope that he would either take one of the "big three" WRs, or trade down, since JJM could net a ton of draft capital from someone who wanted to move up to take him.
As I've said repeatedly the last few days, much of this out of the Giants hands right now.
They can't control what the Bears, Commanders, Pats, Cardinals, and Chargers will do. They can try to influence the last three teams, but ultimately those teams control the Giants' destiny.
It is very possible that four QBs go in the first four picks and the Giants are rebuffed in their trade-up attempts. It's also possible that those demands by other teams are too expensive (Pats wanting three #1 picks).
The Giants are currently in position to draft the #4 QB in this draft. Last I checked, the Vikings nor anyone else has successfully traded to 4 or 5 no matter how many mocks have assumed they have.
The QB expected to go 4th in this draft (JJ McCarthy) is rated 3rd here by a pro scout , SY, with a grade of 84.
To put that in perspective going to back to all of his QB grades dating back to 2013
1- Lawrence 95
2- Rosen 89
3- Burrow 87
4- Daniels 87
5- Williams 87
6- Mayfield 86
7- Goff 86
8- Tua 84
McCarthy 84
We have a QB currently expected to be there at 6 with a the 8th highest QB grade of the last 11 years.
You will note that everyone carrying a grade above an 84 went #1 in the draft except for Daniels who probably go 2 due to being in same draft as another guy with same grade and Rosen who dropped for character concerns.
The guy who graded with him at 84 went #5.
The Giants have never had the #1 pick so waiting around for a guaranteed stud QB, which is never going to happen anyway as no QB is guaranteed, is never going to happen and you are not likley based on the 11 years to get a guy graded this high at a pick this low.
Now maybe Schoen and Daboll love McCarthy and think he is a special player? If they get him I hope they are right. But if Maye and Daniels are gone and the Giants are on the clock at #6, I will be praying for a WR.
Completely agree.
But much of Larry Fitzgerald's career was spent with shit.
Calvin Johnson
Cris Carter
Tim Brown
Anquan Boldin
Torry Holt (look at who he played with for most of his career)
Steve Smith
Currently, Garrett Wilson and Terry McLaurin.
Again, Eli was on back 9 and what did we win with a WR buy a Declining QB. We have to go get our QB and this argument about the class is crazy. This is the best QB class since 18. Some will hit, some will miss and some will be a bust.. The thing is none of is know who those will be.. I am all in on Maye or JJM.
But I guess the culture created by those wins is something we can all enjoy this season.
Williams - I guess if I had to do grades, he’d get the top one because there’s so much talent, but I wouldn’t draft him. I see a Mahomes style player but Mahomes success isn’t all due to athletic ability, he doesn’t seem to have the other things Mahomes does
Daniels - Won’t survive but fun to watch
McCarthy - I can do something with him but I wouldn’t get excited about drafting him
Maye - This is the guy I want on the Giants, I see some Eli there where he’ll just stand in, take a shot and keep going. Thats what you need to play your career in NY.
Bonus on Nix - I do have a very, very close friend who’s nephew was a NCAA prospect and accepted a PWO role to be a redshirt QB for Oregon, he spent spring and summer with the team before decided he didn’t have a future in the sport and enrolling at a college closer to home and not playing football, he did however spend a lot of time with Nix when he was at Oregon as the coaches asked him to “Tie himself to Bo.”
His comments weren’t technical as he was a 17 year old kid, however he was in awe of how knowledgable Bo was about the game, stating multiple times that he knew more about football than most of the coached. What I thought was funny is that when he met him his first impression was “who’s this bumpkin?” Until they got into the position meetings and Bo started talking about the offense. Biased opinion from the kid, but he believes Nix should be in the first round.
But I guess the culture created by those wins is something we can all enjoy this season.
I think it was nearly impossible to outsuck the Pats that afternoon, but the Packers win was the real killer. EVERYTHING had set up perfectly that weekend draft wise and the combination of Packer injuries and them taking the Giants lightly led to this.
The lone positive is that there’s an elite prospect available at six even if it isn’t a QB. That’s not always true.
Man, that Thursday can’t come soon enough. Haha.
It wasn't about tanking. It was about managing the roster to ensure proper outcomes. As it stands, we got nothing for either Barkley or McKinney, who will now compete directly against us, and we got meaningless wins that literally hand over perhaps the biggest prize of the 2024 draft, at least according to Sy, to the one rival whom we have actually had success against over the last decade.
That's gold Jerry, gold!
It wasn't about tanking. It was about managing the roster to ensure proper outcomes. As it stands, we got nothing for either Barkley or McKinney, who will now compete directly against us, and we got meaningless wins that literally hand over perhaps the biggest prize of the 2024 draft, at least according to Sy, to the one rival whom we have actually had success against over the last decade.
Exactly. The McKinney situation is not getting enough attention.
They obviously had reservations because they went out of their way to say they would NOT re-do his contract during the season. And they knew he was pissed about that.
Not only do you lose an asset (2nd rounder?), but you'd have a better read on Belton and Owens too.
But I guess the culture created by those wins is something we can all enjoy this season.
Why do you assclowns keep posting this over and over and over again? What purpose does it serve? The fact that you think how fans enjoy wins actually affects the outcomes of games is astonishing. They won the fucking games. Nothing you or I could have done to change that. And NFL teams don’t tank. It’s great you get to sit on your nasty ass sofa and think professionals should go out there and lay down like dogs but that’s why they are where they are and you aren’t. STOP bitching about stupid shit that we can’t control. It’s beyond redundant at this point FFS.
The way they handled Barkley for the past two seasons was just stupid. There is no sense sugar-coating it.
I was saying it was a shame we won those games, and mocking fans like you who talk about how a meaningless win builds a winning culture or sets a foundation for the following year.
Tl:dr - Try again clown.
His eyes often come off his WRs and look at the rush. I want my QB to extend plays to pass, not pull the plug early so he can run
Sorry not sorry, WR's w/o a QB aren't worth the #6 pick.
If they're going to go with a non QB draft pick, they're better off drafting Turner and building a defensive focused team. Of course, why you would do this with an Offensive Head coach is the hard part.
Williams - I guess if I had to do grades, he’d get the top one because there’s so much talent, but I wouldn’t draft him. I see a Mahomes style player but Mahomes success isn’t all due to athletic ability, he doesn’t seem to have the other things Mahomes does
Daniels - Won’t survive but fun to watch
McCarthy - I can do something with him but I wouldn’t get excited about drafting him
Maye - This is the guy I want on the Giants, I see some Eli there where he’ll just stand in, take a shot and keep going. Thats what you need to play your career in NY.
Bonus on Nix - I do have a very, very close friend who’s nephew was a NCAA prospect and accepted a PWO role to be a redshirt QB for Oregon, he spent spring and summer with the team before decided he didn’t have a future in the sport and enrolling at a college closer to home and not playing football, he did however spend a lot of time with Nix when he was at Oregon as the coaches asked him to “Tie himself to Bo.”
His comments weren’t technical as he was a 17 year old kid, however he was in awe of how knowledgable Bo was about the game, stating multiple times that he knew more about football than most of the coached. What I thought was funny is that when he met him his first impression was “who’s this bumpkin?” Until they got into the position meetings and Bo started talking about the offense. Biased opinion from the kid, but he believes Nix should be in the first round.
Great post Bitey! I agree completely on Maye. I see a huge ceiling there and think Daboll would work his incredible magic on him to overcome the concerns that Sy has mentioned here. I don't agree about Daniels. I see a future Randall Cunningham there and believe the NFL rules put in place over the past decade will protect him to a greater degree than RGIII. His assessment on Nix is interesting and I would have no problem selecting one of the receivers at six and then trading back up into the first round to get Nix or Penix if they fall far enough. But his assessment of JJM is exactly what worries me the most. It feels so reminiscent of DJ it is scary.
It wasn't about tanking. It was about managing the roster to ensure proper outcomes. As it stands, we got nothing for either Barkley or McKinney, who will now compete directly against us, and we got meaningless wins that literally hand over perhaps the biggest prize of the 2024 draft, at least according to Sy, to the one rival whom we have actually had success against over the last decade.
The problem with this is that there were a bunch of running backs who “could’ve/should’ve” been traded and not a single one changed teams. Not even a guy like Dalvin Cook, who was doing literally nothing for the Jets. We don’t know what the trade market was like for that position so it isn’t fair to assume they just sat on their hands in regards to Saquon.
Sorry not sorry, WR's w/o a QB aren't worth the #6 pick.
If they're going to go with a non QB draft pick, they're better off drafting Turner and building a defensive focused team. Of course, why you would do this with an Offensive Head coach is the hard part.
I think it's pretty obvious they want a new QB. That's not the issue.
The issue is will they be in position to take the QB who they want? They are trying.
I think what you said has a ton of merit. However, these WRs are so good that they stand above the other prospects at other positions.
In your scenario, trade down. (And I'd be trading all over the place to acquire picks).
What were the offers? We don't know. But the offers were made. "A bird in the hand..."
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After his colossal failure in awarding the DJ contract, Schoen's biggest mistake in his tenure was not trading Barkley and McKinney at the trade deadline this past October. Had he done so, he would have received several 2024 day two picks AND it would be all but certain that we would have lost at least two of the four games we went on to win (GB, WASH, NE and PHIL). And would probably be picking second and getting one of the two quarterback prizes in this year's draft.
It wasn't about tanking. It was about managing the roster to ensure proper outcomes. As it stands, we got nothing for either Barkley or McKinney, who will now compete directly against us, and we got meaningless wins that literally hand over perhaps the biggest prize of the 2024 draft, at least according to Sy, to the one rival whom we have actually had success against over the last decade.
The problem with this is that there were a bunch of running backs who “could’ve/should’ve” been traded and not a single one changed teams. Not even a guy like Dalvin Cook, who was doing literally nothing for the Jets. We don’t know what the trade market was like for that position so it isn’t fair to assume they just sat on their hands in regards to Saquon.
Even if they only got a day three pick, it would have been a better outcome than Barkley contributing to meaningless wins. And someone like Baltimore would have absolutely benefited from Barkley late last year. So I can't believe there was no market for him, but it may have been a less than optimal draft pick. But who cares? It would have been better than the way it turned out, particularly since it was crystal clear Schoen had zero interest in bringing him back.
Sorry not sorry, WR's w/o a QB aren't worth the #6 pick.
If they're going to go with a non QB draft pick, they're better off drafting Turner and building a defensive focused team. Of course, why you would do this with an Offensive Head coach is the hard part.
If they're not going QB, get Turner lean into being a defensive focused team.
I can live with one of MHJ, Nabers or Odunze at 6th, Milton at 47th and keeping the 2025 first rounder.
It wasn't about tanking. It was about managing the roster to ensure proper outcomes. As it stands, we got nothing for either Barkley or McKinney, who will now compete directly against us, and we got meaningless wins that literally hand over perhaps the biggest prize of the 2024 draft, at least according to Sy, to the one rival whom we have actually had success against over the last decade.
Sorry not sorry, WR's w/o a QB aren't worth the #6 pick.
If they're going to go with a non QB draft pick, they're better off drafting Turner and building a defensive focused team. Of course, why you would do this with an Offensive Head coach is the hard part.
I 100% agree. And if GoDeep is accurate, it seems Daboll, the man who developed and coached Josh Allen to be who he is now, not taking chances on other 1st round caliber QB's. Bugs the hell out of me and will if they elect to go that route (Nabers).
Williams - I guess if I had to do grades, he’d get the top one because there’s so much talent, but I wouldn’t draft him. I see a Mahomes style player but Mahomes success isn’t all due to athletic ability, he doesn’t seem to have the other things Mahomes does
Daniels - Won’t survive but fun to watch
McCarthy - I can do something with him but I wouldn’t get excited about drafting him
Maye - This is the guy I want on the Giants, I see some Eli there where he’ll just stand in, take a shot and keep going. Thats what you need to play your career in NY.
Bonus on Nix - I do have a very, very close friend who’s nephew was a NCAA prospect and accepted a PWO role to be a redshirt QB for Oregon, he spent spring and summer with the team before decided he didn’t have a future in the sport and enrolling at a college closer to home and not playing football, he did however spend a lot of time with Nix when he was at Oregon as the coaches asked him to “Tie himself to Bo.”
His comments weren’t technical as he was a 17 year old kid, however he was in awe of how knowledgable Bo was about the game, stating multiple times that he knew more about football than most of the coached. What I thought was funny is that when he met him his first impression was “who’s this bumpkin?” Until they got into the position meetings and Bo started talking about the offense. Biased opinion from the kid, but he believes Nix should be in the first round.
Great post. Thanks.
Williams - I guess if I had to do grades, he’d get the top one because there’s so much talent, but I wouldn’t draft him. I see a Mahomes style player but Mahomes success isn’t all due to athletic ability, he doesn’t seem to have the other things Mahomes does
Daniels - Won’t survive but fun to watch
McCarthy - I can do something with him but I wouldn’t get excited about drafting him
Maye - This is the guy I want on the Giants, I see some Eli there where he’ll just stand in, take a shot and keep going. Thats what you need to play your career in NY.
Bonus on Nix - I do have a very, very close friend who’s nephew was a NCAA prospect and accepted a PWO role to be a redshirt QB for Oregon, he spent spring and summer with the team before decided he didn’t have a future in the sport and enrolling at a college closer to home and not playing football, he did however spend a lot of time with Nix when he was at Oregon as the coaches asked him to “Tie himself to Bo.”
His comments weren’t technical as he was a 17 year old kid, however he was in awe of how knowledgable Bo was about the game, stating multiple times that he knew more about football than most of the coached. What I thought was funny is that when he met him his first impression was “who’s this bumpkin?” Until they got into the position meetings and Bo started talking about the offense. Biased opinion from the kid, but he believes Nix should be in the first round.
(And this is coming from a guy who has said repeatedly the Giants have no chance to win a Super Bowl until they get a top QB).
Sorry not sorry, WR's w/o a QB aren't worth the #6 pick.
If they're going to go with a non QB draft pick, they're better off drafting Turner and building a defensive focused team. Of course, why you would do this with an Offensive Head coach is the hard part.
If they're not going QB, get Turner lean into being a defensive focused team.
Taking one of the WRs is like putting Pirelli F1 performance tires on a Citroen 2CV. It's not going to go any faster and would be a complete waste of the tires potential
What were the offers? We don't know. But the offers were made. "A bird in the hand..."
I’m not an expert on compensatory pick formula, but is it possible that the offers didn’t match whatever they could possibly get next year for Saquon signing elsewhere?
I know, I know… “a bird in hand”
If they add a player like Nabers with Jones at QB, I look forward to more post game break downs off all the opportunities Jones missed.
(And this is coming from a guy who has said repeatedly the Giants have no chance to win a Super Bowl until they get a top QB).
I'm on the side who is fine with drafting a WR or TE high but only if the QB is handled or the QB class is poor (Pickett/Howell/Willis). Championship teams are built from the inside out. Look what the Falcons did drafting London and Pitts and had no QB, for example.
Wide receivers are easier to find and replace especially with a good/great QB under contract.
I think Daniels has a lesser arm and more risk because of his frame. Though he is more pro-ready than Maye, I think I prefer Maye's upside.
I think Penix is being underrated. And I don't see much special in JJM.
1. Williams
2a. Maye
2b. Daniels
4. Penix
5. McCarthy
6. Nix
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having a “QB Guy” with a pretty outrageous track record of predicting success. This is a former coach who put a few QB’s in college, stopped coaching and his program hasn’t put one in since, and its been a long time…. He’s not a professional evaluator but a huge Giants fan, I also usually have to beg him to watch tape. I’ve sent him things on the top 4 and got these comments back:
Williams - I guess if I had to do grades, he’d get the top one because there’s so much talent, but I wouldn’t draft him. I see a Mahomes style player but Mahomes success isn’t all due to athletic ability, he doesn’t seem to have the other things Mahomes does
Daniels - Won’t survive but fun to watch
McCarthy - I can do something with him but I wouldn’t get excited about drafting him
Maye - This is the guy I want on the Giants, I see some Eli there where he’ll just stand in, take a shot and keep going. Thats what you need to play your career in NY.
Bonus on Nix - I do have a very, very close friend who’s nephew was a NCAA prospect and accepted a PWO role to be a redshirt QB for Oregon, he spent spring and summer with the team before decided he didn’t have a future in the sport and enrolling at a college closer to home and not playing football, he did however spend a lot of time with Nix when he was at Oregon as the coaches asked him to “Tie himself to Bo.”
His comments weren’t technical as he was a 17 year old kid, however he was in awe of how knowledgable Bo was about the game, stating multiple times that he knew more about football than most of the coached. What I thought was funny is that when he met him his first impression was “who’s this bumpkin?” Until they got into the position meetings and Bo started talking about the offense. Biased opinion from the kid, but he believes Nix should be in the first round.
Great post Bitey! I agree completely on Maye. I see a huge ceiling there and think Daboll would work his incredible magic on him to overcome the concerns that Sy has mentioned here. I don't agree about Daniels. I see a future Randall Cunningham there and believe the NFL rules put in place over the past decade will protect him to a greater degree than RGIII. His assessment on Nix is interesting and I would have no problem selecting one of the receivers at six and then trading back up into the first round to get Nix or Penix if they fall far enough. But his assessment of JJM is exactly what worries me the most. It feels so reminiscent of DJ it is scary.
BS- complete BS. Some of you just love to spout shit that makes no sense.. JJM is on another level from Jones. Secondly, you keep acting like JJM is bring forced into the 1st RD by the Giants and Giants alone.. Once again too many here just spew whatever bs they read somewhere else that fits their preconceived notions. JJM is bring valued and regarded by a number of coaches, svouts etc but somehow you all think it is the Giants forcing a Daniel Jones part two.. STOP.
By the way SY has Daniels #1, a fact that seems lost Gere by Many who sew Williams 1, Maye 2 etc.. I am not at all in the Daniels camp but if the Giants like him and take him then great...Maye and JJM for me..
Also, meaningless wins are bullshit arguments.. By that thought process the Giants should have lost every game..
WR without a QB are worthless..You will not convince me otherwise..
(And this is coming from a guy who has said repeatedly the Giants have no chance to win a Super Bowl until they get a top QB).
WRs simply aren’t part of the formula for consistent sustained success. And given the diva nature of WRs, do you think any of the top 3 would stick around after 4 years dealing with the Giants shit show at QB? The bitching for a trade would be in full effect by the time the 5th year option decision rolled around.
(And this is coming from a guy who has said repeatedly the Giants have no chance to win a Super Bowl until they get a top QB).
It does matter but only to some degree, which is clearly lessened.
I can even lean to drafting one of the top WRs at #6 but only if I have reasonable confidence we are going at QB with the next pick or next year. I don't have that confidence though so then not sure this strategy is sound. I might want to go OT or Edge (as the latter gives me leverage to potentially trade KT away for pick to help move up for a QB next year).
Assuming the Giants are drafting around the same spot next year and if the class isn't as deep they are stuck in the same situation as this year, no (maybe even worse if shallow class)? So I guess, in your opinion, how much are they keeping a side eye on what the 2025 class could be?
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saying a WR doesn't matter unless you have a stud QB just sounds like hyperbole to me. Of course the WR matters, even if you have Dave Brown/Daniel Jones throwing the ball.
(And this is coming from a guy who has said repeatedly the Giants have no chance to win a Super Bowl until they get a top QB).
WRs simply aren’t part of the formula for consistent sustained success. And given the diva nature of WRs, do you think any of the top 3 would stick around after 4 years dealing with the Giants shit show at QB? The bitching for a trade would be in full effect by the time the 5th year option decision rolled around.
#1) Money is the biggest concern for any NFL Player. If you pay them they will stay
#2) We know these WR can catch the football. Do you know if any of these QBs can actually deliver the ball? No, you can only hope they can make the reads correctly in a faster league.
#3) You do not take a QB just to take a QB with the #6 pick. Example? Daniel Jones.
I want a replacement QB as much as almost anyone, but if the guy they want is not there, then do not just take what is left. You can do that in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th round.
You may find the next Brock Purdy later in the draft, but even Purdy doesn't do it with out Samuel, Aiyuk and Kittle.
So yes, WRs do make a difference - not nearly as much as a QB, but good WRs can help cover up a mediocre QB.
Then Pats aren't trading out of 3 with Min unless Min makes a mistake with an INSANELY irresponsible offer
I can live with one of MHJ, Nabers or Odunze at 6th, Milton at 47th and keeping the 2025 first rounder.
smart move is NOT to. Stay at 6, let the draft come to them.
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Move may be to sit at 6 and see who falls. Maybe alll 4 QBs are gone and we just go BPA at 6 or even move down for more picks. If we do intend on going QB and JJ/Maye are closely graded, it may be best if the Vikings move up with the Pats and we sit at 6 (assuming no one moves up to 4 or 5 for the remaining of the too 4 QBs).
Then Pats aren't trading out of 3 with Min unless Min makes a mistake with an INSANELY irresponsible offer
The Vikings can meet the Patriots ask for 3 #1 picks, with their 2 1st rd picks this year and a 2025 1st.
Some people here have been critical of what CW might have between the ears (unjustified imo), but not remembering the script on an important audition for the NFL might give me some concern, or at least if he was on my radar I would look into it. Have you heard anything about this?
Link to the podcast below and should open at the correct time.
NYG p[odcast - first round mock - Daniels discussion - ( New Window )
Or a stud WR!!!
Agree totally.....do not mortgage the future!
On another angle,
I actually liked Drew Lock more than Jones in that Draft. Although, having the tools, he proved he didn't have the head.....I liked what he showed last year.....and if Daboll truly a QB whisperer.....do you see any shot Drew Lock can turn into a viable QB at 28?
The resurgence of Geno Smith and Baker Mayfield can give hope to the idea of Lock.
My issue is the simple fact his issues from the college tape have not disappeared at all - if anything they've gotten worse.
You can’t teach arm talent. By all accounts, the medicals are good. He’s an underrated athlete, and a gamer. I would love him in blue.
I do also think the rookie QB window is overstated. You are trying to find a clear upgrade at the position, the cap shouldn't factor in. You don't keep a subpar player around because you can't optimize the rookie QB window.
Building the super teams often begins with paying a QB sub-market value. KC ascended that way. SEA ascended that way with Wilson. SF is ascending that way. BUF ascended that way.
I think it is near-mandatory to build a sustainable winner in today's NFL.
If NYG does not go QB in round 1, I do not think it is mandatory to bring a new one. You can punt until next year altogether. If the value and upside match up later on, go for it. Don't force it.
I listened to your 90 minute podcast yesterday
It was fabulous
I’m for one not drafting the QB this year and see what Jones can do with an improved offensive line and I’m all for giving Neal one more year and that’s it
I think a trade down or two to accumulate additional second round picks to fill out the roster is a must
WR Brian Thomas will be a top flight receiver in this league and if he can be had in the late teens or early 20s that would be a steal
By trading down and hopefully accumulating two additional second round picks
I would draft
Tvondre Sweat Him and Dex would solve the run defense problem
Cooper Beebe for LG next to Thomas
Kyree Jackson. CB Oregon. Sleeper guy here who not many are talking about except for you on your podcast. He’s your CB2
Let me know your thoughts this afternoon and thanks so much again for all the work you do
Trading back always looks great on paper. My issue with this comes from walking away from a true #1 WR or QB. You lose a lot of control by trading back and you're left hopping external factors fall into place multiples times. It has to be an overpay for NYG to move back
Bowers going top 7. A defensive player going before NYG is on the clock at 6. Jayden Daniels falling out of the top 10.
Is it just Harbaugh supporting his guy? Do you think he believes that? If indeed, JJM at 21, plays QB better than the others... then IMHO, he is worth the gamble of moving to 4 or 5.
I think we need to take a swing at McCarthy or Maye.
I don't put any weight in to Harbaugh's words.
A) He wants to trade out of 5 and will do anything to drive up the price.
B) You might as well as McCarthy's parents what they think of their son.
I hope They are willing to roll the dice on Penix, if the top 4 are gone, I’m ok with 6, you want to talk upside, I think he has a ceiling that can match Daniels.
I don’t want to lose that #1 pick for 25, I think that may be a top 3 pick.
Good point Jim
Quote:
having a “QB Guy” with a pretty outrageous track record of predicting success. This is a former coach who put a few QB’s in college, stopped coaching and his program hasn’t put one in since, and its been a long time…. He’s not a professional evaluator but a huge Giants fan, I also usually have to beg him to watch tape. I’ve sent him things on the top 4 and got these comments back:
Williams - I guess if I had to do grades, he’d get the top one because there’s so much talent, but I wouldn’t draft him. I see a Mahomes style player but Mahomes success isn’t all due to athletic ability, he doesn’t seem to have the other things Mahomes does
Daniels - Won’t survive but fun to watch
McCarthy - I can do something with him but I wouldn’t get excited about drafting him
Maye - This is the guy I want on the Giants, I see some Eli there where he’ll just stand in, take a shot and keep going. Thats what you need to play your career in NY.
Bonus on Nix - I do have a very, very close friend who’s nephew was a NCAA prospect and accepted a PWO role to be a redshirt QB for Oregon, he spent spring and summer with the team before decided he didn’t have a future in the sport and enrolling at a college closer to home and not playing football, he did however spend a lot of time with Nix when he was at Oregon as the coaches asked him to “Tie himself to Bo.”
His comments weren’t technical as he was a 17 year old kid, however he was in awe of how knowledgable Bo was about the game, stating multiple times that he knew more about football than most of the coached. What I thought was funny is that when he met him his first impression was “who’s this bumpkin?” Until they got into the position meetings and Bo started talking about the offense. Biased opinion from the kid, but he believes Nix should be in the first round.
Great post Bitey! I agree completely on Maye. I see a huge ceiling there and think Daboll would work his incredible magic on him to overcome the concerns that Sy has mentioned here. I don't agree about Daniels. I see a future Randall Cunningham there and believe the NFL rules put in place over the past decade will protect him to a greater degree than RGIII. His assessment on Nix is interesting and I would have no problem selecting one of the receivers at six and then trading back up into the first round to get Nix or Penix if they fall far enough. But his assessment of JJM is exactly what worries me the most. It feels so reminiscent of DJ it is scary.
Regarding Daniels there’s two things worth mentioning. This person’s evaluations are solely for what he thinks is is best for the Giants, and he’s never really loved running QBs.
From his rookie season on he never liked the fact Jones ran so much and was always worried it was going to get him killed, oddly his biggest injuries have been in the pocket.
1. Daniels doesn’t attack middle of the field , drops his eyes and looks to run it not pass immediately if his first read is taken away
2. Drake Maye poor throws are footwork issues that might be correctable at next level . Agree?
3..Penix rarely attacks middle of field , and I think has a slow windup/ release ?
If all one had to go one is Bo Nix 2022-23 tape would that elevate his rating ?
Love your clearly worded assessments and willingness to own your evaluations ,. Nobody’s perfect but your humility as an evaluator is a real positive . Thanks again.
1) Middle of field stuff is overblown. His volume of passes over the middle is still about 70% of the other guys (if not more). In addition - they didn't as him to do it a lot AND they didn't have to. Saying he can't do it is not fair.
2) A lot of Maye's accuracy issues stem from footwork. Not all of them. It can be fixed. But so can everything.
3) Penix didn't get asked to. It is not in their scheme much. His release is weird, yes. And he does have mechanical issues that show up in a bad way on short to intermediate passes.
4) Bo Nix grade was barely impacted by the Auburn years, if at all.
Good, yes. Elite? Likely not.
QB class? Is there anyone who could emerge as an elite
prospect? And is there a QB in this year's group that Daboll
is saying "I WANT THIS GUY NOW"?
I don't see anyone special yet. I have 4 guys that are potential 1st rounders that are in the 80-85 range.
Quote:
Burrow. I think that's pretty good. No?
Good, yes. Elite? Likely not.
I would take Raiders-era Rich Gannon in a heartbeat. Elite would be awesome, but a guy in the Eli, Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson mold who hovers around the top ten has a Super Bowl run in them? It’s a major step up.
McCarthy's ceiling has more to do with the mental state and clutch gene. Some guys get really insecure talking about it - and that is fine. I think it is a real thing.
That is whay I am drawn to him coming here to a situation where he sits for a year, giving the FO another year to build a support system, and then take off from there. He can be physically good enough to get this team into the playoffs and that is where the mental state takes over the most. To me, it is what has kept Kirk Cousins away from being a true star.
Ideally, I'd enjoy seeing your ranking of all positions from easiest to hardest for you (and most scouts) to assess success in the NFL.
Thank you – and great work, as always. I enjoy your writing style as much as the substance of your write-ups.
For me?
QB and CB are the toughest. Situation around them dictates so much of their success at the next level.
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To me he seems like a solid prospect with a higher floor than some of the others but doesn’t seem to have any sort of elite standout trait where you can squint and see him becoming a top tier QB which is essentially the conclusion Greg Cosell came to. Same goes for Nix whereas with Maye and Penix, if they clean up the other parts of their game the arm talent seems to lend itself to a higher ceiling. Cosell on JJ - ( New Window )
McCarthy's ceiling has more to do with the mental state and clutch gene. Some guys get really insecure talking about it - and that is fine. I think it is a real thing.
That is whay I am drawn to him coming here to a situation where he sits for a year, giving the FO another year to build a support system, and then take off from there. He can be physically good enough to get this team into the playoffs and that is where the mental state takes over the most. To me, it is what has kept Kirk Cousins away from being a true star.
I think if JJM can improve his throwing mechanics to hone in his touch and accuracy on the 25+ yard throws, then he will become elite. His reasonable floor is that of a QB that could get you to the playoffs and then play clutch and who knows how far you get. That's just my perspective. I would trade a future 2nd and 3rd for him, but I wouldn't do anything more because we have so many holes.
Our best case scenario is Minnesota trading the farm for Maye at 3 and we could get JJM for pick 6 plus future 2 and 3 or less. Nabers isn't a bad consolation prize, but I think we will get 7 wins next year +/- 1 or 2. That won't get us within reach of a promising qb next year and we will just be stuck on the carousel. That realistic fear of our future is enough to spend a bit to secure a QB like JJM.
These college kids.....potentially are always the next Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson.....
But never Marcus Mariotta, Josh Rosen,Ryan Leaf.
Or even just the next Kirk Cousin, Daniel Jones, Baker Mayfield.
I all for a QB or WR.....
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To me he seems like a solid prospect with a higher floor than some of the others but doesn’t seem to have any sort of elite standout trait where you can squint and see him becoming a top tier QB which is essentially the conclusion Greg Cosell came to. Same goes for Nix whereas with Maye and Penix, if they clean up the other parts of their game the arm talent seems to lend itself to a higher ceiling. Cosell on JJ - ( New Window )
McCarthy's ceiling has more to do with the mental state and clutch gene. Some guys get really insecure talking about it - and that is fine. I think it is a real thing.
That is whay I am drawn to him coming here to a situation where he sits for a year, giving the FO another year to build a support system, and then take off from there. He can be physically good enough to get this team into the playoffs and that is where the mental state takes over the most. To me, it is what has kept Kirk Cousins away from being a true star.
Also, JJM could likely have continued evolving and been the #1 pick in 2025. If we pick around 6 (which I think is the highest we will be in 2025) then getting JJM would cost a lot more than our 1st and a future 2nd or 3rd. So why isn't that worth it? We either take a swing on one of these guys or ride the bench for a long time without a contender QB, imp. Take a swing.
He was in severs high-leverage situations making high-difficulty throws into small, NFL -type windows. He's done enough to get a grade of very good ball protection. You just have to watch it all, which I understand takes time.
Yes - but I won't want him until the 5th
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It does sound like you think the Giants should draft a QB at some point in the draft. Would you agree that if they passed on QB on day one, they should take one later on? (Milton as you mentioned)
I do also think the rookie QB window is overstated. You are trying to find a clear upgrade at the position, the cap shouldn't factor in. You don't keep a subpar player around because you can't optimize the rookie QB window.
Building the super teams often begins with paying a QB sub-market value. KC ascended that way. SEA ascended that way with Wilson. SF is ascending that way. BUF ascended that way.
I think it is near-mandatory to build a sustainable winner in today's NFL.
If NYG does not go QB in round 1, I do not think it is mandatory to bring a new one. You can punt until next year altogether. If the value and upside match up later on, go for it. Don't force it.
Agreed, don’t take a qb in a later round just for the sake of taking one. We have too many holes and too few picks. If you can’t get one of your top rated qb’s better to punt entirely for a year
And thats even with draft picks at 2, 4, 6, 5, 7 and 11
If JJ McCarthy is on the board at 4 they should take him.
And thats even with draft picks at 2, 4, 6, 5, 7 and 11
If JJ McCarthy is on the board at 4 they should take him.
If our asshat report about Minnesota is true, then they want Maye with a fallback option of Penix at 11 or so. That would make JJM likely be there at 6 if Maye goes 3 (whether it's to the Patriots or Vikings). Minnesota would have to trade close to the same package to get up for JJM at 4 as they would have to for Maye at 3. So this asshat report seems like it could be valid, if they really want Maye then they would be dumb to just trade the same package for JJM when he isn't in the same tier to them. Penix at 11 would make much more sense, or maybe via slight trade up but I think he could likely be had at 11.
Thanks again. Great, great content.
Thanks again. Great, great content.
I look for the response to the bad - AKA what do they do next drive? Later in game? Next week?
I strongly weigh what these guys do against their best competition / big moments / high leverage situations.
Deal breakers? Not really. Certain things like getting the ball out too slow because they don't see it will matter more than arm strength.
He would be a no brainer
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And see how many times the Giants were on the clock with a QB with an 84 grade like McCarthy is likely to be at 6
And thats even with draft picks at 2, 4, 6, 5, 7 and 11
If JJ McCarthy is on the board at 4 they should take him.
If our asshat report about Minnesota is true, then they want Maye with a fallback option of Penix at 11 or so. That would make JJM likely be there at 6 if Maye goes 3 (whether it's to the Patriots or Vikings). Minnesota would have to trade close to the same package to get up for JJM at 4 as they would have to for Maye at 3. So this asshat report seems like it could be valid, if they really want Maye then they would be dumb to just trade the same package for JJM when he isn't in the same tier to them. Penix at 11 would make much more sense, or maybe via slight trade up but I think he could likely be had at 11.
He would be a no brainer
Thanks! It's a fools errand, but I fantasize about the prospects of Daboll getting his hand on a talent like Daniels.
Nothing strong. I do see a couple guys that are likely to be in the 83-87 range
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After his colossal failure in awarding the DJ contract, Schoen's biggest mistake in his tenure was not trading Barkley and McKinney at the trade deadline this past October. Had he done so, he would have received several 2024 day two picks AND it would be all but certain that we would have lost at least two of the four games we went on to win (GB, WASH, NE and PHIL). And would probably be picking second and getting one of the two quarterback prizes in this year's draft.
It wasn't about tanking. It was about managing the roster to ensure proper outcomes. As it stands, we got nothing for either Barkley or McKinney, who will now compete directly against us, and we got meaningless wins that literally hand over perhaps the biggest prize of the 2024 draft, at least according to Sy, to the one rival whom we have actually had success against over the last decade.
I certainly have to agree with this. You don't want to lose on purpose. You can't ask your team to do that. But with the handwriting on the wall, you're not going to the playoffs and you're not going to play the free agent game with those guys you got to move them for picks. And we didn't.
Exactly. In baseball, when you know you're out of it, you don't try to actually lose games (partly because the draft is very different), but what you do is trade off short term assets for longer term assets, while those in contention do the opposite. I don't think the Giants were being smart about it.
Then, why punt QB? I know things can change, but that seems significant.
I also don't think the Giants are operating as a team which expects to be picking at the top of the draft next year. You don't give up a valuable draft pick for Burns (39) if you expect to be picking top 5 and then paying him too.
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I am more confident there will be multiple 90+ WRs next year than 85+ QBs
Then, why punt QB? I know things can change, but that seems significant.
What do you mean "punt"? Pass on, say, McCarthy if he falls in their laps? Or not trade a bunch of picks to go after, say, Maye?
Drew Lock, duh!
I’m thinking this question has cost Schabs many hours of sleep the past few months. And now it’s probably total insomnia.
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I’m thinking this question has cost Schabs many hours of sleep the past few months. And now it’s probably total insomnia.
I doubt it has cost them sleep. They picked up Lock. They will run with either Lock or Jones when he is ready. They don't have a choice, do they?
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In comment 16459481 The Mike said:
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After his colossal failure in awarding the DJ contract, Schoen's biggest mistake in his tenure was not trading Barkley and McKinney at the trade deadline this past October. Had he done so, he would have received several 2024 day two picks AND it would be all but certain that we would have lost at least two of the four games we went on to win (GB, WASH, NE and PHIL). And would probably be picking second and getting one of the two quarterback prizes in this year's draft.
It wasn't about tanking. It was about managing the roster to ensure proper outcomes. As it stands, we got nothing for either Barkley or McKinney, who will now compete directly against us, and we got meaningless wins that literally hand over perhaps the biggest prize of the 2024 draft, at least according to Sy, to the one rival whom we have actually had success against over the last decade.
I certainly have to agree with this. You don't want to lose on purpose. You can't ask your team to do that. But with the handwriting on the wall, you're not going to the playoffs and you're not going to play the free agent game with those guys you got to move them for picks. And we didn't.
Exactly. In baseball, when you know you're out of it, you don't try to actually lose games (partly because the draft is very different), but what you do is trade off short term assets for longer term assets, while those in contention do the opposite. I don't think the Giants were being smart about it.
Yeah the near losses and wins balanced out, but not trading Barkley was really dumb. I'd imagine we would be picking in the 3-5 range without Barkley and we would have an extra pick however late it was. Mara's comments on this made it seem like he had an influence ("I don't like giving up, we really wanted to keep him etc").
I think it's great. If we have the chance to get the number 2 WR in this class- think of the value if we were to trade down? As long as we like one of the QB's after 4, this is a great opportunity to get a QB.
Teams know that it is no bluff. If we can't trade down-- getting a super WR is an option.
So if we like Penix or Nix-- - and trade back is the option -- then please do it!
==============
Still saying I would have liked Fields as a chance. With an elite WR - and then in rd 2 and rd 3 more than likely a De and CB -- we'd be potentially building an elite Defense while fields works with a supreme WR.
Sy: why do you think JJM wouldn't be worth trading more than a 3rd for? Would you not be willing to trade a future 2nd and 3rd to AZ if he could be had for that? I'm getting the sense that it won't matter and the Vikings backup option to Maye is Pennix which makes it more likely JJM could be had at pick 6 if Maye goes 3rd. I still wonder why you wouldn't trade a bit more for JJM in this theoretical scenario though?
I really appreciate your rankings and I think they are very accurate and solid, love your analysis. Thanks again.
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In comment 16459718 Go Terps said:
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.
I’m thinking this question has cost Schabs many hours of sleep the past few months. And now it’s probably total insomnia.
I doubt it has cost them sleep. They picked up Lock. They will run with either Lock or Jones when he is ready. They don't have a choice, do they?
True … but the overriding decision is still in front of them … what should they do, or try to do in the draft? I can’t see them resting comfortably until the die is cast and they have to play the hand (they dealt themselves).
I don’t agree. I think it’s highly likely we never see Jones take another snap if we take a QB at 6.
The smartest thing would be to bench Jones or cut him when he can pass a physical after June 1st. So no, I don't agree with your in all likelihood scenario personally.
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In comment 16459723 Spider56 said:
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In comment 16459718 Go Terps said:
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.
I’m thinking this question has cost Schabs many hours of sleep the past few months. And now it’s probably total insomnia.
I doubt it has cost them sleep. They picked up Lock. They will run with either Lock or Jones when he is ready. They don't have a choice, do they?
True … but the overriding decision is still in front of them … what should they do, or try to do in the draft? I can’t see them resting comfortably until the die is cast and they have to play the hand (they dealt themselves).
I doubt it bothers them as much as us...Schoen has his plans or will have them before draft night.
What bothers us and not them is they know what they want to do, who they want to do it with and what they will do if x, y, or z happens.
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has to do with Michigan not really asking him to throw nearly as much as the other guys and playing within a conservative offense?
He was in severs high-leverage situations making high-difficulty throws into small, NFL -type windows. He's done enough to get a grade of very good ball protection. You just have to watch it all, which I understand takes time.
Thank you.
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And see how many times the Giants were on the clock with a QB with an 84 grade like McCarthy is likely to be at 6
And thats even with draft picks at 2, 4, 6, 5, 7 and 11
If JJ McCarthy is on the board at 4 they should take him.
If our asshat report about Minnesota is true, then they want Maye with a fallback option of Penix at 11 or so. That would make JJM likely be there at 6 if Maye goes 3 (whether it's to the Patriots or Vikings).
What asshat report and when?
If Minnesota's strategy is Maye and fallback with Penix, maybe that should be Schoen's as well? Furthermore, maybe Penix should be QB4 and JJM QB5.
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In comment 16459645 HardTruth said:
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And see how many times the Giants were on the clock with a QB with an 84 grade like McCarthy is likely to be at 6
And thats even with draft picks at 2, 4, 6, 5, 7 and 11
If JJ McCarthy is on the board at 4 they should take him.
If our asshat report about Minnesota is true, then they want Maye with a fallback option of Penix at 11 or so. That would make JJM likely be there at 6 if Maye goes 3 (whether it's to the Patriots or Vikings).
.
What asshat report and when?
If Minnesota's strategy is Maye and fallback with Penix, maybe that should be Schoen's as well? Furthermore, maybe Penix should be QB4 and JJM QB5.
Check the thread Vikings Asshat Report. I'm fine with a WR like Nabers or Odunze at 6, but I think we will be in QB hell for a long time without this high of a pick for a while. Nothing different than what we've experienced for the past decade, nothing new :).
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In comment 16459645 HardTruth said:
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And see how many times the Giants were on the clock with a QB with an 84 grade like McCarthy is likely to be at 6
And thats even with draft picks at 2, 4, 6, 5, 7 and 11
If JJ McCarthy is on the board at 4 they should take him.
If our asshat report about Minnesota is true, then they want Maye with a fallback option of Penix at 11 or so. That would make JJM likely be there at 6 if Maye goes 3 (whether it's to the Patriots or Vikings).
.
What asshat report and when?
If Minnesota's strategy is Maye and fallback with Penix, maybe that should be Schoen's as well? Furthermore, maybe Penix should be QB4 and JJM QB5.
I do like Penix a lot too, I wouldn't take him at 6 but if we could trade down to 8-10 for an extra 2nd plus Penix then I think it would be a great move.
That would be an almost-great move that Schoen can actually execute himself.
That would be an almost-great move that Schoen can actually execute himself.
I don't like him at 6 and I think we could get him a bit later, I wouldn't be mad if we took him at 6 though and I see your logic. The injury history and age would make me feel good about getting him with an extra 2nd vs just taking him at 6. Ultimately, it's hard to say if I would prefer Odunze/Nabers at 6 or Penix. I think I would say 1 JJM 2 Penix 3 Nabers/Odunze probably for order of preference at 6. I think we will have a better record than 6 or 7 wins for the coming years. I don't see us with a realistic chance at getting the potential future qb for a long time, so I think I would prefer JJM or Penix at 6 over the WRs.
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Sy, early read on the '25 QB class?
Nothing strong. I do see a couple guys that are likely to be in the 83-87 range
So pretty much what I’ve been saying all winter. My guess is if we don’t get a QB this month, chances are Schoen/Daboll won’t be around when we do..like in 2026…
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
If I was ranking all the QB’s, Penix is last on my list. His play vs Michigan concerned me and his injury history gives me pause. For me, it’s the top 4 or bust. Nix, Penix, Rattler, etc are emphatic NO’s for me.
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
We shouldn't be making moves because it feels like a direction. If this team is as bad as people think even with a QB in Round 1 there is no guarantee we won't be in a position next year to get a QB. If Penix struggles because rookies usually struggle and this team is devoid of talent would you spend another 1st in 2025 on a QB, get pennies on the dollar for Penix, and be in the same situation? It is not a sure thing that Legette will be there at 47 (see BBI Mock Draft) although I strongly would have considered Morgan or Corley in Round 2.
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
I'd take Nabers and trade back into the first and get Penix.
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just slot him in at #6 versus some minor trade down that may not work out for Giants?
That would be an almost-great move that Schoen can actually execute himself.
I don't like him at 6 and I think we could get him a bit later, I wouldn't be mad if we took him at 6 though and I see your logic. The injury history and age would make me feel good about getting him with an extra 2nd vs just taking him at 6. Ultimately, it's hard to say if I would prefer Odunze/Nabers at 6 or Penix. I think I would say 1 JJM 2 Penix 3 Nabers/Odunze probably for order of preference at 6. I think we will have a better record than 6 or 7 wins for the coming years. I don't see us with a realistic chance at getting the potential future qb for a long time, so I think I would prefer JJM or Penix at 6 over the WRs.
Unless the extra pick you get for the trade-down is being used to pick another QB (as a fall-back), it sounds silly to not like a QB at #6 but he works at #8.
Just saying.
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In comment 16459769 ThomasG said:
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just slot him in at #6 versus some minor trade down that may not work out for Giants?
That would be an almost-great move that Schoen can actually execute himself.
I don't like him at 6 and I think we could get him a bit later, I wouldn't be mad if we took him at 6 though and I see your logic. The injury history and age would make me feel good about getting him with an extra 2nd vs just taking him at 6. Ultimately, it's hard to say if I would prefer Odunze/Nabers at 6 or Penix. I think I would say 1 JJM 2 Penix 3 Nabers/Odunze probably for order of preference at 6. I think we will have a better record than 6 or 7 wins for the coming years. I don't see us with a realistic chance at getting the potential future qb for a long time, so I think I would prefer JJM or Penix at 6 over the WRs.
Unless the extra pick you get for the trade-down is being used to pick another QB (as a fall-back), it sounds silly to not like a QB at #6 but he works at #8.
Just saying.
It could be for a promising DT, WR, CB, HB or other position. It's basically like saying we could get Penix and Troy Franklin for pick 6. That would be ideal for me, but I agree it isn't realistic. If you like Penix enough to take him top 10 then you just pull the trigger at 6. It would be interesting if Maye goes 3 to NE, then Min trades up with LAC for Penix.
2025- we will NOT be picking in top 3. Forget that bullshit.
We need our guy at QB but, but let's say our guys ate gone already THEN you absolutely trade down and do NOT take a WR who will have little to no impact with our shitty QBs.
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Highly likely the Giants are considering the scenario of taking a WR at 6, and who to target with the next pick.
A ? makes it seem the Giants have forgotten they have a pick at 47.
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In comment 16459520 Eric from BBI said:
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saying a WR doesn't matter unless you have a stud QB just sounds like hyperbole to me. Of course the WR matters, even if you have Dave Brown/Daniel Jones throwing the ball.
(And this is coming from a guy who has said repeatedly the Giants have no chance to win a Super Bowl until they get a top QB).
WRs simply aren’t part of the formula for consistent sustained success. And given the diva nature of WRs, do you think any of the top 3 would stick around after 4 years dealing with the Giants shit show at QB? The bitching for a trade would be in full effect by the time the 5th year option decision rolled around.
#1) Money is the biggest concern for any NFL Player. If you pay them they will stay
#2) We know these WR can catch the football. Do you know if any of these QBs can actually deliver the ball? No, you can only hope they can make the reads correctly in a faster league.
#3) You do not take a QB just to take a QB with the #6 pick. Example? Daniel Jones.
I want a replacement QB as much as almost anyone, but if the guy they want is not there, then do not just take what is left. You can do that in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th round.
You may find the next Brock Purdy later in the draft, but even Purdy doesn't do it with out Samuel, Aiyuk and Kittle.
So yes, WRs do make a difference - not nearly as much as a QB, but good WRs can help cover up a mediocre QB.
Having 30+ mil a year tied up in a WR isn’t a championship winning formula. That’s what the Giants would be locked into taking a WR 6 overall.
2025- we will NOT be picking in top 3. Forget that bullshit.
We need our guy at QB but, but let's say our guys ate gone already THEN you absolutely trade down and do NOT take a WR who will have little to no impact with our shitty QBs.
I suspect you are right about the QBs.
However, you keep insisting it will happen when this is really outside of the Giants hands at this point.
You just killed your own argument.
The All-Pro WR would be on a rookie contract for five years.
After that? Nice problem to have. Look at what top tier WRs are getting paid. The League disagrees with you.
I'd expect Schoen to think THIS is his best chance to land a QB.
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Sometimes(well always) you get a little to focused on what you want vs what is better for the team. 90%+ want a new QB. But you cannot waste a #6 pick on a QB just to get a QB. Not sure Penix at #6 is a good use of that pick. Not that I don't like Penix or even Nix. Just not there.
I am hoping McCarthy is there at #6 as I think Schoen will take him.
although i do like travis a lot.
And how much do you want to pay that WR to keep if you aren't certain about your QB in the meantime?
I'd expect Schoen to think THIS is his best chance to land a QB.
I don't understand why you assume the Giants can get the QB they want.
I'd expect Schoen to think THIS is his best chance to land a QB.
Not top 5. As usual we will “benefit” from some late season meaningless wins, knocking us out of premium QB draft slots, if there were any worthy next year.
And how much do you want to pay that WR to keep if you aren't certain about your QB in the meantime?
Think of what you are saying. So if the QB you want is not there, you want them to pass on what will likely be the highest rated player on the board, a WR, because they don't have a elite QB? This is basically not seeing the forest because of the trees.
You just killed your own argument.
The All-Pro WR would be on a rookie contract for five years.
After that? Nice problem to have. Look at what top tier WRs are getting paid. The League disagrees with you.
The WR pick at 6 wouldn’t be a 5 year rental. The goal for whomever they pick at 6 is to get a 2nd contract correct? What do you think that second contract would look like?
The “league” can disagree all they want, the smart teams winning championships aren’t dropping top dollar on WR.
You can bitch and moan all you want, but it is what it is.
2025- we will NOT be picking in top 3. Forget that bullshit.
We need our guy at QB but, but let's say our guys ate gone already THEN you absolutely trade down and do NOT take a WR who will have little to no impact with our shitty QBs.
You can bet your ass if we give up that first rounder next year it will definitely come in as top 3 pick.
Book it Dano.
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What?
You just killed your own argument.
The All-Pro WR would be on a rookie contract for five years.
After that? Nice problem to have. Look at what top tier WRs are getting paid. The League disagrees with you.
The WR pick at 6 wouldn’t be a 5 year rental. The goal for whomever they pick at 6 is to get a 2nd contract correct? What do you think that second contract would look like?
The “league” can disagree all they want, the smart teams winning championships aren’t dropping top dollar on WR.
If the QBs we like are gone and there isnt a worthy trade down option to pass up on elite talent, then a top 5 potential WR isn't a terrible consolation prize. I would prefer a trade down with Chicago for an early 2nd and Pick 9, but this isn't a video game.
1) You can make the argument he didn't throw it over the middle enough. But why would he? He was literally setting records with his arms and legs with the way he was playing. He won the Heisman Trophy and had one of the best seasons in NCAA history. Should he have thrown it over the middle more to please draft analysts that are clearly looking for things to nitpick?
2) The charting I have is:
Daniels over the middle intermediate and deep = 57 passes
Caleb over the middle intermediate and deep = 57 passes
Maye over the middle intermediate and deep = 80 passes
McCarthy over the middle intermediate and deep = 78 passes
Nix over the middle intermediate and deep = 71 passes
Penix over the middle intermediate and deep 86 passes
Daniels did it less than others (same as Caleb but nobody will mention that) but only by about 1-2 per game. Is that really noteworthy? Again. Reference point 1.
There is no perfect QB prospect. If that is the one things Daniels didn't do enough (he still did it well), I am more than OK with that.
Yet, McCarthy is given QB3 despite the fact he is "good" but not special. And his list of attributes are intangibles (maturity) and college stats (pressure, third down conversion, etc) that we are to assume will convey to the NFL.
Interesting...
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What?
You just killed your own argument.
The All-Pro WR would be on a rookie contract for five years.
After that? Nice problem to have. Look at what top tier WRs are getting paid. The League disagrees with you.
The WR pick at 6 wouldn’t be a 5 year rental. The goal for whomever they pick at 6 is to get a 2nd contract correct? What do you think that second contract would look like?
The “league” can disagree all they want, the smart teams winning championships aren’t dropping top dollar on WR.
I think this is right actually. But if you back up to the final 4 teams which is not unreasonable as a proxy for "championship teams" as it allows some data to come into the population, I think you start finding some highly paid WRs.
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What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Sometimes(well always) you get a little to focused on what you want vs what is better for the team. 90%+ want a new QB. But you cannot waste a #6 pick on a QB just to get a QB. Not sure Penix at #6 is a good use of that pick. Not that I don't like Penix or even Nix. Just not there.
I am hoping McCarthy is there at #6 as I think Schoen will take him.
What I want is for the Giants to stop punting the QB position.
Don't you get tired of this garbage? Some of us do.
Yet, McCarthy is given QB3 despite the fact he is "good" but not special. And his list of attributes are intangibles (maturity) and college stats (pressure, third down conversion, etc) that we are to assume will convey to the NFL.
Interesting...
He cam see why some compare them, as he think their size and arms are close enough basically. He is worried about the inconsistency with Maye and feeling like a lot of his numbers come from times when everything is going right. He sees him as a boom or bust prospect which is scary. Your nitpicking without a full picture of his perspective, which isn't fair. He has JJM and Maye rated nearly the same, JJM gets 1 extra point for presumably a higher floor, extra athleticism and production with pressure on (both mental and pocket pressure). What's the problem with that?
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In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Sometimes(well always) you get a little to focused on what you want vs what is better for the team. 90%+ want a new QB. But you cannot waste a #6 pick on a QB just to get a QB. Not sure Penix at #6 is a good use of that pick. Not that I don't like Penix or even Nix. Just not there.
I am hoping McCarthy is there at #6 as I think Schoen will take him.
What I want is for the Giants to stop punting the QB position.
Don't you get tired of this garbage? Some of us do.
I just want there to be a plan. If you're not taking a QB this year what's the plan for next year when we (in all likelihood) won't be picking top 5 again? That's why I keep saying if the QB you want isn't there, trade down and get assets in 2025 because we'll be right back in this same exact spot.
He cam see why some compare them, as he think their size and arms are close enough basically. He is worried about the inconsistency with Maye and feeling like a lot of his numbers come from times when everything is going right. He sees him as a boom or bust prospect which is scary. Your nitpicking without a full picture of his perspective, which isn't fair. He has JJM and Maye rated nearly the same, JJM gets 1 extra point for presumably a higher floor, extra athleticism and production with pressure on (both mental and pocket pressure). What's the problem with that?
I really don't have a problem with it as much as I find it an interesting way to evaluate and draw a conclusion.
Now, my biases certainly get in the way because I want the bigger, stronger, more talented and more dynamic player.
And that's because that type of player is dominating the league right now.
However, when you look at the highlights of McCarthy, he makes an inordinate amount of "money" plays when his OL breaks down (not an issue with him holding the ball, but being under pressure immediately from the defense). He also improvises... very Romo-esque.
He comes across as the kind of QB that drives a defense nuts.
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Seems most of the good ones have serious questions about Daniels and his reluctance to throw over the middle (even when the opportunity is there) and his decision making re: when to abandon the play design, but you wave it off as something to not put much stock in.
1) You can make the argument he didn't throw it over the middle enough. But why would he? He was literally setting records with his arms and legs with the way he was playing. He won the Heisman Trophy and had one of the best seasons in NCAA history. Should he have thrown it over the middle more to please draft analysts that are clearly looking for things to nitpick?
2) The charting I have is:
Daniels over the middle intermediate and deep = 57 passes
Caleb over the middle intermediate and deep = 57 passes
Maye over the middle intermediate and deep = 80 passes
McCarthy over the middle intermediate and deep = 78 passes
Nix over the middle intermediate and deep = 71 passes
Penix over the middle intermediate and deep 86 passes
Daniels did it less than others (same as Caleb but nobody will mention that) but only by about 1-2 per game. Is that really noteworthy? Again. Reference point 1.
There is no perfect QB prospect. If that is the one things Daniels didn't do enough (he still did it well), I am more than OK with that.
That is just good stuff. Seems like there are enough posts talking about and discounting some of the QBs on this "over the middle" weakness and blowing it out of proportion.
thx Sy
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In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
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What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Sometimes(well always) you get a little to focused on what you want vs what is better for the team. 90%+ want a new QB. But you cannot waste a #6 pick on a QB just to get a QB. Not sure Penix at #6 is a good use of that pick. Not that I don't like Penix or even Nix. Just not there.
I am hoping McCarthy is there at #6 as I think Schoen will take him.
What I want is for the Giants to stop punting the QB position.
Don't you get tired of this garbage? Some of us do.
So you want them to force a pick, no matter what? They cannot force a pick. They cannot. IDGAF how badly they need a QB, you do NOT just take a QB. They are in this position because DG forced a pick with Jones and you know it.
They cannot just take a QB because Go Terps wants one. We all want Jones to go away. But his damage is done. They cannot compound it.
If they feel Penix is a player that has elite characteristics, then let Daboll do his thing.
No, I was being unrealistic after discussing it with ThomasG. I would be fine with the pick at 6, not sure if I'd want him over Odunze or Nabers still, but I'd be fine with him there. I'm of the belief that we won't be within reach of a good QB prospect in the draft like we are this year for a long time.
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He cam see why some compare them, as he think their size and arms are close enough basically. He is worried about the inconsistency with Maye and feeling like a lot of his numbers come from times when everything is going right. He sees him as a boom or bust prospect which is scary. Your nitpicking without a full picture of his perspective, which isn't fair. He has JJM and Maye rated nearly the same, JJM gets 1 extra point for presumably a higher floor, extra athleticism and production with pressure on (both mental and pocket pressure). What's the problem with that?
I really don't have a problem with it as much as I find it an interesting way to evaluate and draw a conclusion.
Now, my biases certainly get in the way because I want the bigger, stronger, more talented and more dynamic player.
And that's because that type of player is dominating the league right now.
Highly athletic QBs that are good under mental and pocket pressure have always done well in the league too.
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Did I understand you right that you don’t like Penix at #6, but would like him after a trade down to #8-#10?
No, I was being unrealistic after discussing it with ThomasG. I would be fine with the pick at 6, not sure if I'd want him over Odunze or Nabers still, but I'd be fine with him there. I'm of the belief that we won't be within reach of a good QB prospect in the draft like we are this year for a long time.
I sure hope not at 6.
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In comment 16459833 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Sometimes(well always) you get a little to focused on what you want vs what is better for the team. 90%+ want a new QB. But you cannot waste a #6 pick on a QB just to get a QB. Not sure Penix at #6 is a good use of that pick. Not that I don't like Penix or even Nix. Just not there.
I am hoping McCarthy is there at #6 as I think Schoen will take him.
What I want is for the Giants to stop punting the QB position.
Don't you get tired of this garbage? Some of us do.
So you want them to force a pick, no matter what? They cannot force a pick. They cannot. IDGAF how badly they need a QB, you do NOT just take a QB. They are in this position because DG forced a pick with Jones and you know it.
They cannot just take a QB because Go Terps wants one. We all want Jones to go away. But his damage is done. They cannot compound it.
If they feel Penix is a player that has elite characteristics, then let Daboll do his thing.
I want them to acknowledge some things:
1. They don't have a good QB on the roster for 2024
2. None of the current Giant QBs may even be on the roster in 2025
3. Picking #6 in this draft, with this number of QB prospects, is as good an opportunity as it's fair to ask for
I don't think picking a QB at #6 is forcing the pick. I think it makes sense. It doesn't have to be Penix. There are six viable QB options. Pick one and install an offense designed to his talents.
There isn't a WR in NFL history who'd make a difference on this Giants. Nabers has a higher grade than the QB at #6? So what? Nabers on the Giants is a JAG, because there's no one to get him the ball.
Let’s not confuse forcing a pick with being a lazy idiot.
But I just think many fans get lost in the concept that QB needs a solution (for the NYG) and they solve for it by looking at who is available, like QB4. When the answer is which QBs best translate to the NFL.
A deep draft of QBs means a deep list of QB busts.
I am a big proponent in taking a swing, but don't swing at a ball in the dirt.
I want them to acknowledge some things:
1. They don't have a good QB on the roster for 2024
2. None of the current Giant QBs may even be on the roster in 2025
3. Picking #6 in this draft, with this number of QB prospects, is as good an opportunity as it's fair to ask for
I don't think picking a QB at #6 is forcing the pick. I think it makes sense. It doesn't have to be Penix. There are six viable QB options. Pick one and install an offense designed to his talents.
There isn't a WR in NFL history who'd make a difference on this Giants. Nabers has a higher grade than the QB at #6? So what? Nabers on the Giants is a JAG, because there's no one to get him the ball.
So it is all about you. Read your 1st sentence. Some guy sitting on a couch at home wants the Giants to acknowledge what he thinks?
No there is not a WR that will make a BIG difference this year on the Giants. But there are three WRs that will rate higher than two of the six QBs.
Let’s not confuse forcing a pick with being a lazy idiot.
DG was an idiot. But he also forced that pick.
No question about it.
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In comment 16459833 section125 said:
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In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
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What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Sometimes(well always) you get a little to focused on what you want vs what is better for the team. 90%+ want a new QB. But you cannot waste a #6 pick on a QB just to get a QB. Not sure Penix at #6 is a good use of that pick. Not that I don't like Penix or even Nix. Just not there.
I am hoping McCarthy is there at #6 as I think Schoen will take him.
What I want is for the Giants to stop punting the QB position.
Don't you get tired of this garbage? Some of us do.
I just want there to be a plan. If you're not taking a QB this year what's the plan for next year when we (in all likelihood) won't be picking top 5 again? That's why I keep saying if the QB you want isn't there, trade down and get assets in 2025 because we'll be right back in this same exact spot.
Why wouldn’t we be picking top 5 next year? The NYG will likely have one of the 3 worst rosters in the league next year. 6 picks (if we use them all for players) isn’t going to change that. This is probably still a 4-6 win team.
Adding a top tier WR and hoping some combination of Jones and Lock can make them productive is just treading water. What if they win 8 games this year? You are probably not getting a QB next year either based on Sy’s early estimate.
At some point the Giants will have to get a guy with some warts and remind Daboll he is getting paid to get the most out of the players that are available.
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Jones was not the result of Gettleman forcing a QB pick. He was incompetent and lazy, and made a stupid decision based on watching a scrimmage and the fact that the guy’s coach worked with Peyton and Eli.
Let’s not confuse forcing a pick with being a lazy idiot.
DG was an idiot. But he also forced that pick.
No question about it.
Of course it was a force. He intended to take Jones at 17 but heard others wanted him also. So he "panicked" and took him at #6.
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Fair question.
To be honest, I'm going Nabers plus a guy at 47. That could likely be a difference making CB, OL, or pass rushing DT.
Another option - which I would try hard to do - is trade back from 47 to pick up extra pick(s) in 2025. Gather an extra 2-3 picks total to add to an 2025 arsenal that can be used to trade up for a QB if needed.
The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower.
Yet, McCarthy is given QB3 despite the fact he is "good" but not special. And his list of attributes are intangibles (maturity) and college stats (pressure, third down conversion, etc) that we are to assume will convey to the NFL.
Interesting...
The profile of Maye is comparable to those two. We've seen a few people use it over the years too. It usually doesn't work out - Allen and Herbert are unicorns.
McCarthy is better under pressure. He is better in high leverage situations. He is a better athlete. He is a better decision maker. And I think he knows the game better.
As long as the talent is good enough (it is) - I would use the latter as a tiebreaker all day.
Then trading up for fucking DJ Uiagalelei or one of the other shit QB’s for 2025 because we’re desperate…
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In comment 16459921 Mike from Ohio said:
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Jones was not the result of Gettleman forcing a QB pick. He was incompetent and lazy, and made a stupid decision based on watching a scrimmage and the fact that the guy’s coach worked with Peyton and Eli.
Let’s not confuse forcing a pick with being a lazy idiot.
DG was an idiot. But he also forced that pick.
No question about it.
Of course it was a force. He intended to take Jones at 17 but heard others wanted him also. So he "panicked" and took him at #6.
It was a 3-fold force.
He forced it once because he was desperate for a new QB after missing it with the Eli evaluation.
He forced it twice because it was a bad QB draft and he talked himself into a lower quality candidate based on the choices.
And then the true moron came out as he forced it a third time that someone was going to take Jones between his first and second 1st Round Pick. He listened to rumors and was victimized into taking a lesser candidate because he was outplayed at poker.
Gettleman was the all-time biggest moron that has ever been a GM.
Yes it does. And if Jones throws 17 TD passes there is a subset of this message board that will be on here telling you how amazing a season it was, and how there is no other QB in the league who could have done more with this roster. They will recommend staying the course and building around Jones.
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In comment 16459921 Mike from Ohio said:
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Jones was not the result of Gettleman forcing a QB pick. He was incompetent and lazy, and made a stupid decision based on watching a scrimmage and the fact that the guy’s coach worked with Peyton and Eli.
Let’s not confuse forcing a pick with being a lazy idiot.
DG was an idiot. But he also forced that pick.
No question about it.
Of course it was a force. He intended to take Jones at 17 but heard others wanted him also. So he "panicked" and took him at #6.
Saying it was a force means you believe Gettleman didn’t like Jones that much. I have no idea what information you are basing that on. The guy was in full bloom love…
So what?
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In comment 16459930 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16459921 Mike from Ohio said:
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Jones was not the result of Gettleman forcing a QB pick. He was incompetent and lazy, and made a stupid decision based on watching a scrimmage and the fact that the guy’s coach worked with Peyton and Eli.
Let’s not confuse forcing a pick with being a lazy idiot.
DG was an idiot. But he also forced that pick.
No question about it.
Of course it was a force. He intended to take Jones at 17 but heard others wanted him also. So he "panicked" and took him at #6.
Saying it was a force means you believe Gettleman didn’t like Jones that much. I have no idea what information you are basing that on. The guy was in full bloom love…
You can try to change it to your definition, but DG wanted to take him at 17. By taking him at 6 that was a force. We know he wanted Josh Allen at #6. No matter how much a team may like a player, drafting out of position is a force.
Taking Penix or Nix at 6 is a force, even if you like them as late 1st round or early 2nd round players.
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What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Fair question.
To be honest, I'm going Nabers plus a guy at 47. That could likely be a difference making CB, OL, or pass rushing DT.
Another option - which I would try hard to do - is trade back from 47 to pick up extra pick(s) in 2025. Gather an extra 2-3 picks total to add to an 2025 arsenal that can be used to trade up for a QB if needed.
The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower.
I agree Sy.
Adding a top tier WR and hoping some combination of Jones and Lock can make them productive is just treading water. What if they win 8 games this year? You are probably not getting a QB next year either based on Sy’s early estimate.
At some point the Giants will have to get a guy with some warts and remind Daboll he is getting paid to get the most out of the players that are available.
I agree that if we can't grab the QB with a lottery pick then look for a partner to trade down with. Maybe we get fortunate on day two and grab Nix. If not, roll with Lock, cut Jones, and start planning for 2025 for better long-term solutions.
I think Sy said there were 2025 QB he was grading at 83-75 right now...? Would love to know who they are. IMV, Sanders should be one based on his production playing behind the worst OL in major D1 football last year.
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is we presumably will have mid at best throwing him the ball. So you fall into the trap of the Cardinals were your best player is a HOF'er who is completely dependent on a string of journeymen getting him the ball.
And how much do you want to pay that WR to keep if you aren't certain about your QB in the meantime?
Think of what you are saying. So if the QB you want is not there, you want them to pass on what will likely be the highest rated player on the board, a WR, because they don't have a elite QB? This is basically not seeing the forest because of the trees.
What? Think of what you are saying. There’s a girl you love that’s top on your board the one you love the most. You keep spending money on her and ask her for dates but she keeps leading you on and saying “not this week.”
You keep your money on this WR while getting nowhere near a Super Bowl, then what are you doing? The top 4 teams this past year were either or a combo of Trench teams or QB teams. The same last year.
If you don’t understand that the WR (The girl) isn’t going to lead you anywhere then where do you think you are going?
I agree- if you don’t like the QB’s. You pass. But if you like any that are available – then why wouldn’t you favor that over a WR when you can see for example two straight years of either QB’s or Trench-play as leads while you see Jefferson and Hill lead their respective team to where?
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What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Fair question.
To be honest, I'm going Nabers plus a guy at 47. That could likely be a difference making CB, OL, or pass rushing DT.
Another option - which I would try hard to do - is trade back from 47 to pick up extra pick(s) in 2025. Gather an extra 2-3 picks total to add to an 2025 arsenal that can be used to trade up for a QB if needed.
The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower.
Thanks for a great answer. So let me ask you - assuming the Giants don't draft a QB in round 1, what would you like too see them do at the position going forward?
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
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In comment 16459893 Mike from Ohio said:
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Did I understand you right that you don’t like Penix at #6, but would like him after a trade down to #8-#10?
No, I was being unrealistic after discussing it with ThomasG. I would be fine with the pick at 6, not sure if I'd want him over Odunze or Nabers still, but I'd be fine with him there. I'm of the belief that we won't be within reach of a good QB prospect in the draft like we are this year for a long time.
I sure hope not at 6.
Yeah, I think I'd go with a trade down or Nabers/Odunze over Penix at 6 upon further thought. We are in a tough spot, but my hope is JJM falls to 6 if Minnesota has Penix as the backup option or three Vikings pay the king's ransom for Maye at 6. Knowing our luck we will take Nabers over JJM at 6 and Nabers will end up super unhappy with scrappy QB play for years and end up being traded or injured while JJM ends up being a franchise QB. That would be typical luck for our how things have gone for the last decade.
I'm not a Penix guy, but I do find it a strange that Penix has a slightly lower pre-draft grade (79) than what Sy gave Jones (80).
I know it's easy to have judgment clouded by Jones's five below average years here, but Penix has plus categories. Jones really had none except his mobility.
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In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Fair question.
To be honest, I'm going Nabers plus a guy at 47. That could likely be a difference making CB, OL, or pass rushing DT.
Another option - which I would try hard to do - is trade back from 47 to pick up extra pick(s) in 2025. Gather an extra 2-3 picks total to add to an 2025 arsenal that can be used to trade up for a QB if needed.
The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower.
Thanks for a great answer. So let me ask you - assuming the Giants don't draft a QB in round 1, what would you like to see them do at the position going forward?
Jones starts week 1 if healthy.
Lock is the backup
DeVito stays in the picture as #3 OR they used a day three pick on one of the back end guys.
Then you try to firm up QB next year (hopefully with extra capital from a couple of 2024 trades that net 2025 picks).
Best case scenario would be Jones plays well enough to get himself involved in a trade, even if it is a mid round pick.
Unless Penix turns out to be the best of the 6, so help me Dan Marino.
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"The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower."
I'm not a Penix guy, but I do find it a strange that Penix has a slightly lower pre-draft grade (79) than what Sy gave Jones (80).
I know it's easy to have judgment clouded by Jones's five below average years here, but Penix has plus categories. Jones really had none except his mobility.
Jones was much more mechanically sound. And he did not have the. medicals Penix does.
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But there are three WRs that will rate higher than two of the six QBs.
So what?
I’ll add, this will always be the case.
Look at all of SYs grades from 2013-2024. There is literally 1 grade over 90. That’s it.
JJ McCarthy will land at an 84 and that’s the 8th highest grade since 2013.
That’s simply not the case with the other positions.
Caleb Williams will not be the highest graded player on the board at 1 this year. They will be higher graded players.
If you get too hung up on the grades, you will literally never draft a QB unless you land at the 1 pick in the year you get the Trevor Lawrence/Andrew Luck/Peyton Manning once a generation prospect. Good luck with that.
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In comment 16459943 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Fair question.
To be honest, I'm going Nabers plus a guy at 47. That could likely be a difference making CB, OL, or pass rushing DT.
Another option - which I would try hard to do - is trade back from 47 to pick up extra pick(s) in 2025. Gather an extra 2-3 picks total to add to an 2025 arsenal that can be used to trade up for a QB if needed.
The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower.
Thanks for a great answer. So let me ask you - assuming the Giants don't draft a QB in round 1, what would you like to see them do at the position going forward?
Jones starts week 1 if healthy.
There's a chance Jones won't be healthy, correct?
There is also a chnace that with the easier schedule this year and the mgnficent WR whteher Jones plays or not that the team winds up in a draft position that they can't trade up, correct?
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
“Forced to do it next year”. That’s a terrifying thought. That’s were you end up with a Quinn Ewers or a Drew Allar.
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The bottom line is the Giants are in a very tough spot. Everything you are saying makes a ton of sense. Unfortunately, the Giants have neglected the QB room and are in this spot now.
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
“Forced to do it next year”. That’s a terrifying thought. That’s were you end up with a Quinn Ewers or a Drew Allar.
Where. Not were.
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
The Giants are not in a tough spot if they like the 5th and 6th guy. Teams like Denver and Raiders are.
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In comment 16459998 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16459943 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Fair question.
To be honest, I'm going Nabers plus a guy at 47. That could likely be a difference making CB, OL, or pass rushing DT.
Another option - which I would try hard to do - is trade back from 47 to pick up extra pick(s) in 2025. Gather an extra 2-3 picks total to add to an 2025 arsenal that can be used to trade up for a QB if needed.
The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower.
Thanks for a great answer. So let me ask you - assuming the Giants don't draft a QB in round 1, what would you like to see them do at the position going forward?
Jones starts week 1 if healthy.
There's a chance Jones won't be healthy, correct?
There is also a chnace that with the easier schedule this year and the mgnficent WR whteher Jones plays or not that the team winds up in a draft position that they can't trade up, correct?
Yup, that is possible.
Also possible they end up in the top 10 again and hopefully with some extra draft capital.
If they went QB 5 in this draft - it could lead to worse. 5 years of not good enough and back to the drawing board after the prime of Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence.
I think based on your words, you dont think either Maye or McCarthy is worth a trade up. I personally think short and long term the Giants are better off with the WR at 6. I feel that the WR options are true game changers. I dont see any of these QBs as furture top 5 QBs and with Jones contract still on the books the QB salary benefit is really wasted.
I also think trading up and giving away next years #1 will be the Carolina Panthers all over again. We will get the #1 overall pick and someone else will get the benefit. Thats a hard pass for me.
Thanks Sy!
I think based on your words, you dont think either Maye or McCarthy is worth a trade up. I personally think short and long term the Giants are better off with the WR at 6. I feel that the WR options are true game changers. I dont see any of these QBs as furture top 5 QBs and with Jones contract still on the books the QB salary benefit is really wasted.
I also think trading up and giving away next years #1 will be the Carolina Panthers all over again. We will get the #1 overall pick and someone else will get the benefit. Thats a hard pass for me.
Thanks Sy!
I am a hard no on trading a future 1st unless it is for Daniels / Williams.
I don't want to give up a 2nd. I would do a 3rd.
The question would be whether or not a 2025 2nd is worth using to get up there. Or something like Wan'Dale Robinson. I still think I lean no there.
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In comment 16460010 Sy'56 said:
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In comment 16459998 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16459943 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 16459785 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What feels like the better team build?
6. Nabers
47.?
Or
6. Penix
47. Legette
The later approach feels like a direction. The former feels like "what are we doing here?"
Fair question.
To be honest, I'm going Nabers plus a guy at 47. That could likely be a difference making CB, OL, or pass rushing DT.
Another option - which I would try hard to do - is trade back from 47 to pick up extra pick(s) in 2025. Gather an extra 2-3 picks total to add to an 2025 arsenal that can be used to trade up for a QB if needed.
The Penix + Legette looks like a band-aid for a wound that needs stitches. It smells like cologne for someone that needs to take a shower.
Thanks for a great answer. So let me ask you - assuming the Giants don't draft a QB in round 1, what would you like to see them do at the position going forward?
Jones starts week 1 if healthy.
There's a chance Jones won't be healthy, correct?
There is also a chnace that with the easier schedule this year and the mgnficent WR whteher Jones plays or not that the team winds up in a draft position that they can't trade up, correct?
Yup, that is possible.
Also possible they end up in the top 10 again and hopefully with some extra draft capital.
If they went QB 5 in this draft - it could lead to worse. 5 years of not good enough and back to the drawing board after the prime of Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence.
Thanks SY. How about this-- if rd 2 and rd 3 come up that veyr good value DE and CB come up. WIht Brian Burns coming in and KT another year- we couldalos have teh making of a pwoer defense for a few years, couldn't we? You would have a stable defense.
Then next year you are primed for a #1 WR? Maybe another OL and overall more offense? Couldn't teh Giants start a move-up in performance even if the QB is mediocre with that strong Defense?
Ofc - the QB would have to be at least that -which I understand is the issue.
I'm just thinking /praying that the OL can finally be something.
Ouch….
Jones was much more mechanically sound. And he did not have the. medicals Penix does.
Got it - thanks.
Your grade for McCarthy is higher than what you gave for Herbert (82?). Which indicates McCarthy is a slightly better prospect than Herbert.
I'm sure you stand by your grading, but does that still feel right?
I don't want to trade the farm but if Schoen sees a franchise QB-get him.
I don't want to trade the farm but if Schoen sees a franchise QB-get him.
AGAIN, getting the QB is out of the Giants hands. They can make an offer, but they are not in the driver's seat.
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Jones was much more mechanically sound. And he did not have the. medicals Penix does.
Got it - thanks.
Your grade for McCarthy is higher than what you gave for Herbert (82?). Which indicates McCarthy is a slightly better prospect than Herbert.
I'm sure you stand by your grading, but does that still feel right?
I was too low on Herbert. I loved everything about his physical tools and mental make up. But I recall being disappointed by the fact his best tape was from his second (out of 4) years. He beat up on some really bad teams - and I felt his performance in big games was gun shy.
I later found out how much of an awful coaching situation he was in.
Live and learn.
I don't want to trade the farm but if Schoen sees a franchise QB-get him.
In 2019, NYG settled on a QB because they "had" to take one.
The next year, Tua and Herbert were drafted after NYG was on the clock.
That fact alone erases the argument that waiting until next year cannot work,
I was too low on Herbert. I loved everything about his physical tools and mental make up. But I recall being disappointed by the fact his best tape was from his second (out of 4) years. He beat up on some really bad teams - and I felt his performance in big games was gun shy.
I later found out how much of an awful coaching situation he was in.
Live and learn.
Cristobal? If so, I couldn't agree more.
Great recruiter, but one of the worst game coaches. Did you see his handy work in the Georgia Tech/Miami game this year? Guy should have been fired five minutes after the game...
I'm praying the Vikings asshat is true and the Vikings backup option is Penix, not JJM. Then JJM would likely fall to us whether the Vikings traded up to 3 or not. Who knows how Schoen had them ranked, but JJM at 6 would be a dream for me. I really think he's going to evolve into a better pro QB than he was in college (which was still good).
If McCarthy is sitting there at 6, passing him for a WR doesn't seem to make sense based on the grades you've given at QB. It doesn't seem a QB to McCarthy's skills come around often based on how you've graded.
If McCarthy is sitting there at 6, passing him for a WR doesn't seem to make sense based on the grades you've given at QB. It doesn't seem a QB to McCarthy's skills come around often based on how you've graded.
Don't put too much into that. Two things:
1) That was a "for fun" exercise and I wanted to throw a little curveball into the mock. The official 7-round Mock for the Ourlads Guide - I gave them McCarthy.
2) I truly think either choice is a smart one. I can't look down on anyone that wants Odunze over McCarthy or vice versa. It is a tough choice - good position to be in. I also don't see many 90+ WRs coming around often, either.
I look at the leap DeVito took, from guy who didn't belong on the field, to guy who kept the team in contention for a few weeks. That was ridiculous.
You put a highly talented QB in his hands, and I think he turns any of these guys into a good NFL quarterback.
I know some don't want to acknowledge this, the worst outcome for the Giants is miss out on a QB this year, and then they scrape out a 7-8 game season next year.
Daboll is a good coach, they might not get another top 10 pick with him in charge. But they're not winning a Super Bowl if he's going to battle with Jones.
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not losing draft picks and going for a WR, but what good is a stud WR if we don't have a QB who can regularly get him the ball? So we get a stud wr and have to cross our fingers on next year being in a position to draft a stud QB (if there even is one)? I think not. Gotta get a QB now. And for those saying he will sit a year? How is that bad? What is wrong with a rookie QB carrying a clipboard for one season and learning from the sideline? That used to be the norm.
I don't want to trade the farm but if Schoen sees a franchise QB-get him.
In 2019, NYG settled on a QB because they "had" to take one.
The next year, Tua and Herbert were drafted after NYG was on the clock.
That fact alone erases the argument that waiting until next year cannot work,
Respectfully I don’t think this is true and it’s the opposite.
2019 wasn’t expected to be a good QB class and it wasn’t. while people were expecting that Tua and Herbert were going to be excellent prospects a year or more in advance and they were.
This current QB class is excellent and is equivalent and better than the 2018 draft class. Not the 2019 one.
The 2019 draft class is more likely to be next years QB class.
I look at the leap DeVito took, from guy who didn't belong on the field, to guy who kept the team in contention for a few weeks. That was ridiculous.
You put a highly talented QB in his hands, and I think he turns any of these guys into a good NFL quarterback.
I know some don't want to acknowledge this, the worst outcome for the Giants is miss out on a QB this year, and then they scrape out a 7-8 game season next year.
Daboll is a good coach, they might not get another top 10 pick with him in charge. But they're not winning a Super Bowl if he's going to battle with Jones.
This is exactly why I think they'll draft a QB.
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
If they don't do it this year they're forced to draft AND start one in week 1 of 2025
I look at the leap DeVito took, from guy who didn't belong on the field, to guy who kept the team in contention for a few weeks. That was ridiculous.
You put a highly talented QB in his hands, and I think he turns any of these guys into a good NFL quarterback.
I know some don't want to acknowledge this, the worst outcome for the Giants is miss out on a QB this year, and then they scrape out a 7-8 game season next year.
Daboll is a good coach, they might not get another top 10 pick with him in charge. But they're not winning a Super Bowl if he's going to battle with Jones.
Have you seen their 2024 opponents? Not sure where 7 wins come from.
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The bottom line is the Giants are in a very tough spot. Everything you are saying makes a ton of sense. Unfortunately, the Giants have neglected the QB room and are in this spot now.
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
If they don't do it this year they're forced to draft AND start one in week 1 of 2025
Would rather kick the can down the road than take one of the 2025 draft eligible QB’s. If this means the end of the line for Schoen and Daboll, so be it.
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In comment 16460004 Sean said:
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The bottom line is the Giants are in a very tough spot. Everything you are saying makes a ton of sense. Unfortunately, the Giants have neglected the QB room and are in this spot now.
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
If they don't do it this year they're forced to draft AND start one in week 1 of 2025
Would rather kick the can down the road than take one of the 2025 draft eligible QB’s. If this means the end of the line for Schoen and Daboll, so be it.
No one can say with any certainty how the 2025 QB class develops through next season.
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In comment 16460243 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16460004 Sean said:
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The bottom line is the Giants are in a very tough spot. Everything you are saying makes a ton of sense. Unfortunately, the Giants have neglected the QB room and are in this spot now.
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
If they don't do it this year they're forced to draft AND start one in week 1 of 2025
Would rather kick the can down the road than take one of the 2025 draft eligible QB’s. If this means the end of the line for Schoen and Daboll, so be it.
No one can say with any certainty how the 2025 QB class develops through next season.
Yup. But we can say with more clarity what this class is, and we can compare the quantity and quality with other classes before it.
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In comment 16460246 The_Boss said:
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In comment 16460243 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 16460004 Sean said:
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The bottom line is the Giants are in a very tough spot. Everything you are saying makes a ton of sense. Unfortunately, the Giants have neglected the QB room and are in this spot now.
And if they don't draft QB, they are really forced to do it next year.
If they don't do it this year they're forced to draft AND start one in week 1 of 2025
Would rather kick the can down the road than take one of the 2025 draft eligible QB’s. If this means the end of the line for Schoen and Daboll, so be it.
No one can say with any certainty how the 2025 QB class develops through next season.
Yup. But we can say with more clarity what this class is, and we can compare the quantity and quality with other classes before it.
Yes, I'm all in favor of trying to trade up for whatever top QBs the Giants have as targets or if one falls to them. Drafting where they are at 6, there's no guarantee that it works out this year.
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I think Daboll is a strong coach, specifically with his quarterbacks.
I look at the leap DeVito took, from guy who didn't belong on the field, to guy who kept the team in contention for a few weeks. That was ridiculous.
You put a highly talented QB in his hands, and I think he turns any of these guys into a good NFL quarterback.
I know some don't want to acknowledge this, the worst outcome for the Giants is miss out on a QB this year, and then they scrape out a 7-8 game season next year.
Daboll is a good coach, they might not get another top 10 pick with him in charge. But they're not winning a Super Bowl if he's going to battle with Jones.
Have you seen their 2024 opponents? Not sure where 7 wins come from.
Home:
Dallas Cowboys L
Philadelphia Eagles L
Washington Commanders W
New Orleans Saints W
Tampa Bay Buccaneers W
Baltimore Ravens L
Cincinnati Bengals L
Minnesota Vikings W
Indianapolis Colts L
Away:
Dallas Cowboys L
Philadelphia Eagles L
Washington Commanders W
Seattle Seahawks L
Atlanta Falcons W
Carolina Panthers W
Cleveland Browns L
Pittsburgh Steelers L
There is 7 wins, Vegas has us at 6.5 wins. I think that's accurate. Somewhere between 6 and 7 plus or minus 1. I'd guess we will pick around 10. I think we will be better this year than last year with improved ol play, development and our schedule is easier this year I think. I'd venture to guess 7-8 wins.
Now they might be too scared to go get the right guys. So they will play it safe to see if one of the overrated guys falls close to them.
And they may make the fatal flaw by overpaying for the wrong guy, again.
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In comment 16460132 christian said:
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I think Daboll is a strong coach, specifically with his quarterbacks.
I look at the leap DeVito took, from guy who didn't belong on the field, to guy who kept the team in contention for a few weeks. That was ridiculous.
You put a highly talented QB in his hands, and I think he turns any of these guys into a good NFL quarterback.
I know some don't want to acknowledge this, the worst outcome for the Giants is miss out on a QB this year, and then they scrape out a 7-8 game season next year.
Daboll is a good coach, they might not get another top 10 pick with him in charge. But they're not winning a Super Bowl if he's going to battle with Jones.
Have you seen their 2024 opponents? Not sure where 7 wins come from.
Home:
Dallas Cowboys L
Philadelphia Eagles L
Washington Commanders W
New Orleans Saints W
Tampa Bay Buccaneers W
Baltimore Ravens L
Cincinnati Bengals L
Minnesota Vikings W
Indianapolis Colts L
Away:
Dallas Cowboys L
Philadelphia Eagles L
Washington Commanders W
Seattle Seahawks L
Atlanta Falcons W
Carolina Panthers W
Cleveland Browns L
Pittsburgh Steelers L
There is 7 wins, Vegas has us at 6.5 wins. I think that's accurate. Somewhere between 6 and 7 plus or minus 1. I'd guess we will pick around 10. I think we will be better this year than last year with improved ol play, development and our schedule is easier this year I think. I'd venture to guess 7-8 wins.
There is 10 realistically winnable games (Commanders x2, Vikings, Atl, Sea, Car, Pit, NO, Min, TB) not including potential surprise wins. I don't see us having a better pick next year personally.
Shedeur Sanders destined for NY? That would be a circus
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Washington once and Carolina.
Shedeur Sanders destined for NY? That would be a circus
Maybe we’ll trade down for an extra 2026 pick and extend the nonsense.
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In comment 16460278 ThomasG said:
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Washington once and Carolina.
Shedeur Sanders destined for NY? That would be a circus
Maybe we’ll trade down for an extra 2026 pick and extend the nonsense.
Daniel Jones for president in 2028! I mean Daniel Jones for NYG starting Qb in 2028!
4-6 wins.
After the draft, Washington will have a better QB than us. Their roster is better. And they very well could have split with us last season if not for a dropped pass late in the 4th quarter on a 4th down. I think they finish ahead of us in the standings. People forget how bad this roster really is. It’s like bottom 5 bad. I’ve seen writers calling it as perhaps the 2nd worst in the league to only Carolina.
Daniel Jones for president in 2028! I mean Daniel Jones for NYG starting Qb in 2028!
Well it looks like we might be drafting another weapon for Daniel. Tripling down on Danny Dimes sounds like a great plan.
Then you're really spending a fortune to move up.
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Daniel Jones for president in 2028! I mean Daniel Jones for NYG starting Qb in 2028!
Well it looks like we might be drafting another weapon for Daniel. Tripling down on Danny Dimes sounds like a great plan.
Funny thing is Nabers could help us get 1-2 extra wins and maybe revitalize DJ's career! Woohoo!!
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Washington once and Carolina.
4-6 wins.
After the draft, Washington will have a better QB than us. Their roster is better. And they very well could have split with us last season if not for a dropped pass late in the 4th quarter on a 4th down. I think they finish ahead of us in the standings. People forget how bad this roster really is. It’s like bottom 5 bad. I’ve seen writers calling it as perhaps the 2nd worst in the league to only Carolina.
Yeah, Washington's roster is better. That is why the Giants have beaten them pretty much every time they've played recently with our crappy roster...
I don't see this offensive guru in Daboll and it is reasonable that he is not the HC beyond this upcoming season imv. If they don't get a QB then the next HC can address it.
I don't see this offensive guru in Daboll and it is reasonable that he is not the HC beyond this upcoming season imv. If they don't get a QB then the next HC can address it.
If it were you, wouldn't the offensive tackle be a no brainer? Neal is a huge question mark and you could plug in Alt at RT. Isn't that much more important than a WR?
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QB early then just go BPA whether at pick 6 or if they trade back.
I don't see this offensive guru in Daboll and it is reasonable that he is not the HC beyond this upcoming season imv. If they don't get a QB then the next HC can address it.
If it were you, wouldn't the offensive tackle be a no brainer? Neal is a huge question mark and you could plug in Alt at RT. Isn't that much more important than a WR?
No, not at 6. They didn't bring Eluemunor in so they could draft another OT in the 1st round. If Neal crashes and burns, Eluemunor goes to RT.
I can see OL, DT in the 2nd and 3rd round.
I wonder how he's going to handle a 2/25/0 stat line on a team that's 2-6 at Halloween.
Link - ( New Window )
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"I don't know where I'm going. Going to New York, it wouldn't be a bad idea. The quarterback situation--I know they're going to figure it out, especially if they have a caliber receiver coming like me. They're going to want to get me the ball, so I'm sure they're going to want to have a quarterback that can do that."
I wonder how he's going to handle a 2/25/0 stat line on a team that's 2-6 at Halloween. Link - ( New Window )
Not well. It never works out. Just ask Davante Adams.
Link - ( New Window )
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If they pick Nabers he's going to be asked about this a million times before he even finds an apartment...
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"I don't know where I'm going. Going to New York, it wouldn't be a bad idea. The quarterback situation--I know they're going to figure it out, especially if they have a caliber receiver coming like me. They're going to want to get me the ball, so I'm sure they're going to want to have a quarterback that can do that."
I wonder how he's going to handle a 2/25/0 stat line on a team that's 2-6 at Halloween. Link - ( New Window )
Not well. It never works out. Just ask Davante Adams.
My worst nightmare is that - in addition to passing on someone like JJ at 6 - the Giants select Odunze over Nabors purely on the idea that he'll have a 'good attitude' while dealing with our shitty QB play, and he ends up being the worse player.
Personally, I think Nabors implying that we need to sort out our QB situation is awesome. There hasn't been a 1000 yard guy on the Giant since 2018; as one of the best WR prospects to come out in years, he has every right to be concerned.
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
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In comment 16460410 Go Terps said:
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If they pick Nabers he's going to be asked about this a million times before he even finds an apartment...
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"I don't know where I'm going. Going to New York, it wouldn't be a bad idea. The quarterback situation--I know they're going to figure it out, especially if they have a caliber receiver coming like me. They're going to want to get me the ball, so I'm sure they're going to want to have a quarterback that can do that."
I wonder how he's going to handle a 2/25/0 stat line on a team that's 2-6 at Halloween. Link - ( New Window )
Not well. It never works out. Just ask Davante Adams.
My worst nightmare is that - in addition to passing on someone like JJ at 6 - the Giants select Odunze over Nabors purely on the idea that he'll have a 'good attitude' while dealing with our shitty QB play, and he ends up being the worse player.
They won't pass on McCarthy if he's there at #6. They'll take him.
I just don't believe he will be.
Maye, I could see falling.
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Daboll "Chose" Jones?
That I'll never believe.
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Well he inherited Jones, and then was part of the decision to keep Jones. If we believe Schoen and Daboll can't evaluate QB talent because of the Jones miss, should they still be here?
I'm not sure there are a lot of teams that think they need to draft an elite QB who can succeed despite the HC.
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"I don't know where I'm going. Going to New York, it wouldn't be a bad idea. The quarterback situation--I know they're going to figure it out, especially if they have a caliber receiver coming like me. They're going to want to get me the ball, so I'm sure they're going to want to have a quarterback that can do that."
I wonder how he's going to handle a 2/25/0 stat line on a team that's 2-6 at Halloween. Link - ( New Window )
The top draft prospects are now making public comments about the NYG QB situation?
I know he was probably just responding to the interviewer, but still. Not something you see very often before a draft.
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Robbie this is the point many are missing. The QB they select has to be worth selecting. I am all for never seeing DJ on the field again. I am all for getting a QB this year. But that QB has to have the ability to actually improve the "QB room" and not just sit in it. There is no point in selecting another backup QB, just because he isn't DJ. We have one named Drew Lock.
And it will be a tough choice to make. I would take anyone of the top 4 at #6. I would take Nix or Penix later in round one. If they cannot get one of the big 4, and they could trade back, pick up a 2nd or 3rd round and get Nix or Penix later that would be smarter. It comes down to whether Nix or Penix is a large enough improvement over Jones/Lock to pass on more highly rated WRs. I change my mind daily....
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In comment 16460455 Mike from Ohio said:
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Daboll "Chose" Jones?
That I'll never believe.
No, you're right. Daboll didn't want him. They just gave him an insane contract because he has a cool haircut.
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In comment 16460459 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16460455 Mike from Ohio said:
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Daboll "Chose" Jones?
That I'll never believe.
No, you're right. Daboll didn't want him. They just gave him an insane contract because he has a cool haircut.
Exactly. The crowd that says we NEED to draft a QB regardless of anything else is just as bad as the other side saying build the OL first no matter what.
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In comment 16460459 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16460455 Mike from Ohio said:
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Daboll "Chose" Jones?
That I'll never believe.
No, you're right. Daboll didn't want him. They just gave him an insane contract because he has a cool haircut.
You like his hair?
I'd say Daboll was saddled with Jones and then tried to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
If they don't pick a QB here then yeah it's safe to say Jones is their guy, and they should sink or swim with him.
In that case the expectation should be for Jones to perform like a $47M QB in 2024. When he doesn't, that's on Schoen and Daboll as much as anyone else.
Mahomes has a tom of physical talent but it is his processing speed and ability to deal with pressure that truly separates him from others.
Brady was not an incredible physical talent, but again his processing and the way he anticipated pressure and manipulated the pocket in the face of pressure were superior.
According to Sy, the college QB who has those qualities the most is JJM.
Winning record, playoff win, toast of the town.
Think of the adversity of the season. Imagine going through that together.
You really think the games Jones played in 2023 against the best teams in the league, without his starting LT and center, with an OL on pace for over 100 sacks impacted the relationship Jones built with Daboll in 2022? They need a QB because of injuries but I know everyone in that building hopes Jones returns healthy, wins the job and stays healthy.
I don’t feel anyone trusts the last 2 words of the previous sentence but they did not sign him to that contract over pressure from ownership, they signed him because they just had winning season no one expected and won a playoff game. People on BBI say Jones cannot read NFL defenses but the men responsible for signing him to the contract knew what plays were called and knew the current week game plan.
What if?
To prepare for games in 2023 with the injuries to OL and a string of tough defenses approaching, Daboll stood behind Jones with a pool noodle and after 2 seconds tried to knock the ball out of his hands to simulate a Parson or Bosa coming around the edge. If you are practicing like that, might you not see the WR open on the GO route?
What I am saying is there are things we might not know and almost none you take that into account. Some of you act like the fans who have different opinion on JOnes are stupid even though it lines up with the people that know all the information we do not.
If they can't get a reasonable succession plan in place this year, I think the Giants future at QB is likely going to be decided after we get rid of the coach we hired for being a QB whisperer.
That, to me, would signal an organization that is making decisions on a day to day basis with no actual strategy (which I think is what happened with the Jones contract).
Did you consider or have the knowledge to even know where the read told the QB to go with the ball pre snap. If a QB throws the ball in just over 2 seconds, how many seconds before that does he decide to throw to whom and how hard or with what kind of touch?
When?
Was the WR open then?
When they practiced that play all week, who was Jones coached to throw to?
Who knows that?
Terps or Daboll?
Think about it.
How do you think Schoen and Daboll are evaluating QBs for this draft without knowing the playcalls they were running? How do you think they decided to sign Lock having no idea if he was good or bad because they didn't know Seattle's play calls from last year?
Did you ask Sy how he got the college play calls for all 20 QBs he did a rating on?
Sometimes you can draw conclusions from less than 100% complete and perfect information.
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In comment 16460465 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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In comment 16460459 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16460455 Mike from Ohio said:
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Daboll "Chose" Jones?
That I'll never believe.
No, you're right. Daboll didn't want him. They just gave him an insane contract because he has a cool haircut.
You like his hair?
I'd say Daboll was saddled with Jones and then tried to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
Lol, his hair comment was obviously a joke. Schoen and Daboll were hesitant with Jones hence why his 5th year option wasn't picked up. Then Daboll put him through the ringer and challenged him all the time, which led to Daboll loving Jones. This is all out there. If Daboll wasn't sold on Jones, they wouldn't have given him the contract they did. It was way more than making chicken salad out of chicken shit. They still had Taylor on the roster as a backup plan. Nobody forced their hand with that contract. That was their choice.
Now, I am glad they came to their senses. I actually like Jones but I am realistic. I said he never should have been signed to the deal he was signed to. He isn't that caliber of player. I think a team can win with him but he needs help. He can't be the $40 mil ler year guy that elevates the play of those around him. When you pay him that much, that is what you are telling the world, that he can elevate the play of those around him.
Did you consider or have the knowledge to even know where the read told the QB to go with the ball pre snap. If a QB throws the ball in just over 2 seconds, how many seconds before that does he decide to throw to whom and how hard or with what kind of touch?
When?
Was the WR open then?
When they practiced that play all week, who was Jones coached to throw to?
Who knows that?
Terps or Daboll?
Think about it.
Good quarterbacks make the decision to throw the ball before the guy is open. Jones doesn't.
You're rambling.
How do you think Schoen and Daboll are evaluating QBs for this draft without knowing the playcalls they were running? How do you think they decided to sign Lock having no idea if he was good or bad because they didn't know Seattle's play calls from last year?
Did you ask Sy how he got the college play calls for all 20 QBs he did a rating on?
Sometimes you can draw conclusions from less than 100% complete and perfect information.
I think they signed Lock because of how confidently he preformed when he was not expected to play. What I am trying to get at is that throwing to the flat on given play based on the pre snap read might be EXACTLy what the QB was coached to do and supposed to do and a fan could think it a huge mistake.
If they don't pick a QB here then yeah it's safe to say Jones is their guy, and they should sink or swim with him.
In that case the expectation should be for Jones to perform like a $47M QB in 2024. When he doesn't, that's on Schoen and Daboll as much as anyone else.
This is the problem. This was a multi-year rebuild and still is because of the contract they signed Jones to. Focing the QB pick can have disastrous effects if they miss. I have said it before and I will say it again, they better not he giving up future premium picks because even with a top QB, this team needs some serious upgrades across the board. If we look at this year, and this is the key, as do or die for this regime then all that does is fuck with the future success. People shit all over Gettleman for the cap but forget what he did when he came on board. He cleaned up the cap. Hell, we were even in such a great position with the cap that we were front loading contracts. It was a great place to be. Well, what happened? We drafted poorly and had poor coaching and then the losses started accumulating. When the losses accumulated, Gettleman knew he was fighting for his job. That led to panic and stupid FA signings like Golladay.
The last thing I want is for us to put Schoen in that seat. With that said, he needs to figure shit out because he has been less than impressive. The good news is he seemed to have learned from the Jones and Barkley situations. We jeed to nail these draft picks one way or another but still have ways to improve the team after this year. Imo, the most I am doing is exactly what Sy has said as well. I've been saying this for months now. I am willing to give up a 3rd to move up one spot. Beyond that, I am staying at 6 and taking JJM or Maye (Maye worries me but Daboll gets to say yes or no because it is his ass on the line). If neither are there then I am perfectly fine taking one of the top WR and just building up the overall talent on the team. As I said before, this cannot be looked at as a 1 year thing. This is a multiple year rebuild. There are worse situations to be in than having a solid team in need of a QB. I get that next year doesn't have the same caliber of QB but you never know when a guy like Cousins becomes available. If you build up the team and make a play for a guy like that, it makes more sense. We cannot be afraid to not force a QB this year. If the right guy is there then awesome. What most seem to ignore is giving up future premium picks and not having it work out. This team will be unwatchable for another 10+ years with that mentality. Yes, I agree QB is the most important position in sports. However, it isn't the only position. Everyone needs help.
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So everyone who doesn't know the playcall should just shut up and defer to Daboll?
How do you think Schoen and Daboll are evaluating QBs for this draft without knowing the playcalls they were running? How do you think they decided to sign Lock having no idea if he was good or bad because they didn't know Seattle's play calls from last year?
Did you ask Sy how he got the college play calls for all 20 QBs he did a rating on?
Sometimes you can draw conclusions from less than 100% complete and perfect information.
No Mike, your opinion is valid, just not as black and white as you paint it. Leave some room for doubt would be my critique.
I think they signed Lock because of how confidently he preformed when he was not expected to play. What I am trying to get at is that throwing to the flat on given play based on the pre snap read might be EXACTLy what the QB was coached to do and supposed to do and a fan could think it a huge mistake.
For my own education, what did I present as black and white with no room for doubt?
I don't think I am the one that started my post with "FOOLS."
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In comment 16460482 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16460465 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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In comment 16460459 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16460455 Mike from Ohio said:
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Daboll "Chose" Jones?
That I'll never believe.
No, you're right. Daboll didn't want him. They just gave him an insane contract because he has a cool haircut.
You like his hair?
I'd say Daboll was saddled with Jones and then tried to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
Lol, his hair comment was obviously a joke. Schoen and Daboll were hesitant with Jones hence why his 5th year option wasn't picked up. Then Daboll put him through the ringer and challenged him all the time, which led to Daboll loving Jones. This is all out there. If Daboll wasn't sold on Jones, they wouldn't have given him the contract they did. It was way more than making chicken salad out of chicken shit. They still had Taylor on the roster as a backup plan. Nobody forced their hand with that contract. That was their choice.
Now, I am glad they came to their senses. I actually like Jones but I am realistic. I said he never should have been signed to the deal he was signed to. He isn't that caliber of player. I think a team can win with him but he needs help. He can't be the $40 mil ler year guy that elevates the play of those around him. When you pay him that much, that is what you are telling the world, that he can elevate the play of those around him.
LOL. I didn't really think you liked his haircut. Maybe Daboll envies it given his lack of hair...
In all seriousness, (and it's just my opinion of course), I think Daboll, playing with house money in 22, gave Jones a very friendly system for him to perform in. That combined with a favorable schedule produced inflated wins.
The money was allocated and the kid gloves came off. Coupled with a terrible OL play/health and a tougher schedule, well, we saw what happened...
I know I'm a Mara conspiracy theorist, however I have a hard time seeing Daboll thinking Jones was/is the QB for him.
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In comment 16460504 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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In comment 16460482 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16460465 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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In comment 16460459 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16460455 Mike from Ohio said:
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get the QB next year camp, why do you believe value will line up in 2025? Or 2026? Do you never just take a shot at fixing the QB position until there are enough elite prospects in the year you are one of the worst three teams in the league?
We brought Daboll in based largely on what he did with a raw prospect like Josh Allen. At what point do you conclude you just need to get him some raw clay and do what he is supposedly best at?
I am not suggesting you just pick whoever is sitting there at #6...but how many years are you willing to wait for it all to line up? And who do we hire to mentor that guy after Daboll is gone after 2025 or 2026?
Are you completely ignoring the fact that Daboll chose Jones and it didn't work out? It isn't as simple as getting him clay to mold. There has to be a QB worth taking.
Daboll "Chose" Jones?
That I'll never believe.
No, you're right. Daboll didn't want him. They just gave him an insane contract because he has a cool haircut.
You like his hair?
I'd say Daboll was saddled with Jones and then tried to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
Lol, his hair comment was obviously a joke. Schoen and Daboll were hesitant with Jones hence why his 5th year option wasn't picked up. Then Daboll put him through the ringer and challenged him all the time, which led to Daboll loving Jones. This is all out there. If Daboll wasn't sold on Jones, they wouldn't have given him the contract they did. It was way more than making chicken salad out of chicken shit. They still had Taylor on the roster as a backup plan. Nobody forced their hand with that contract. That was their choice.
Now, I am glad they came to their senses. I actually like Jones but I am realistic. I said he never should have been signed to the deal he was signed to. He isn't that caliber of player. I think a team can win with him but he needs help. He can't be the $40 mil ler year guy that elevates the play of those around him. When you pay him that much, that is what you are telling the world, that he can elevate the play of those around him.
LOL. I didn't really think you liked his haircut. Maybe Daboll envies it given his lack of hair...
In all seriousness, (and it's just my opinion of course), I think Daboll, playing with house money in 22, gave Jones a very friendly system for him to perform in. That combined with a favorable schedule produced inflated wins.
The money was allocated and the kid gloves came off. Coupled with a terrible OL play/health and a tougher schedule, well, we saw what happened...
I know I'm a Mara conspiracy theorist, however I have a hard time seeing Daboll thinking Jones was/is the QB for him.
But it has been well documented that Daboll made things very difficult for him which led Daboll to love him. He challened him mentally all the time. Now, I agree the offense was simple initially but everything Daboll put him through tood Daboll that he has "it". I'm not making it up. It is what led to the contract. You don't give a guy $40 mil dollars if you don't believe in him.
Why is it assumed that they did not change their mind again after the 2023 season? I don't know that the assumption that Schoen and Daboll believe they can win with Jones is accurate. They have changed their mind on him before.
Why is it assumed that they did not change their mind again after the 2023 season? I don't know that the assumption that Schoen and Daboll believe they can win with Jones is accurate. They have changed their mind on him before.
Oh, they definitely have changed their minds on Jones hence all the games Schoen and company went to during the season. Schoen isn't wasting his time visiting all these QBs if they are sold on Jones. They obviously aren't sold on him.
You know what I say about that? GREAT!! I get the feeling he will say “throw ME the ball” whenever a play Needs to be made.
With his talent,I can see him having that extra gear Beckham had to take a five yard slant to the house. I’m betting Daboll sees the same thing in him.
Like him or hate him, Daniel Jones is potentially one big hit from being out of football. Drew Lock is backup caliber IMO.
We are drafting sixth. Plenty of excellent QB’s drafted at or around that number. There are some very good QB prospects in this draft, guys who could be special. It’s about projection - who has the physical, mental, and leadership qualities to excel.
Sy, who’s forgotten more about football than I’ll ever know - had Trevor Lawrence rated at 95. He had Bryce Young ahead of CJ Stroud. He had Josh Rosen at the top of the first. He’s a great scout and has strong opinions - but like a lot of them, especially with QB - they’re not always right.
I’m willing to wager there will be 2-3 stars from this QB class, and guess what - not all will be who many of the ‘experts’ expect. I believe the Giants will have conviction on a few QB and I think they HAVE to get one of them. I’m a believer in Penix, but that doesn’t matter; Schoen and Daboll have to get one of the guys they believe in. THIS YEAR. Running it back with Jones, Lock, and Devito is not an option.
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Like him or hate him, Daniel Jones is potentially one big hit from being out of football. Drew Lock is backup caliber IMO.
We are drafting sixth. Plenty of excellent QB’s drafted at or around that number. There are some very good QB prospects in this draft, guys who could be special. It’s about projection - who has the physical, mental, and leadership qualities to excel.
Sy, who’s forgotten more about football than I’ll ever know - had Trevor Lawrence rated at 95. He had Bryce Young ahead of CJ Stroud. He had Josh Rosen at the top of the first. He’s a great scout and has strong opinions - but like a lot of them, especially with QB - they’re not always right.
I’m willing to wager there will be 2-3 stars from this QB class, and guess what - not all will be who many of the ‘experts’ expect. I believe the Giants will have conviction on a few QB and I think they HAVE to get one of them. I’m a believer in Penix, but that doesn’t matter; Schoen and Daboll have to get one of the guys they believe in. THIS YEAR. Running it back with Jones, Lock, and Devito is not an option.
I think they need a QB this year also, aggressively pursue a deal, but not at any price - common sense has to come into play at some point (Ricky Williams trade anyone?). I believe JS is looking at all options and hopefully has tentative trades up and down lined up. Once the bullets start flying, who know, but I trust JS to handle this more than some of our other "leadership" types.
This was a good watch.
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You make the decision to throw the ball BEFORE the WR is open. You armchairs think, OHHH so and so was open when he threw the ball to the check down.
Did you consider or have the knowledge to even know where the read told the QB to go with the ball pre snap. If a QB throws the ball in just over 2 seconds, how many seconds before that does he decide to throw to whom and how hard or with what kind of touch?
When?
Was the WR open then?
When they practiced that play all week, who was Jones coached to throw to?
Who knows that?
Terps or Daboll?
Think about it.
Good quarterbacks make the decision to throw the ball before the guy is open. Jones doesn't.
You're rambling.
Throwing before the WR is open is feel and instinct, it's not a decision. The next time Daniel Jones throws the ball before the receiver is open, will be the first time.
Dave - How do you feel about McCarthy at #6 if he's there? Also, the grade for him vs. Maye is close. Is there one you really like for the Giants and or one you really don't?