“It’s important for Daniel, too, the injuries we had; it was almost embarrassing the way we played on the offensive line. You can’t run a play. You really can’t get a true feel for Daniel when he’s on his back every play. There’s definitely a concerted effort to upgrade both fronts."
“You’re facing a Micah Parsons, we played San Francisco last year on a short week and you’re facing that d-line; those are real problems,” Schoen continued. “You got to face those guys. The ability to get after the quarterback and protect the quarterback is where it all starts. To get those premium positions, you have to be picking high or pay a premium to go get them as you’re building it. We gave up some assets to go get [Burns], and obviously had to pay him.
in a nutshell “We had a lot of confidence in our roster going into the season,” Schoen says. “The opening drive of the season, we go right down the field on Dallas, 10, 11 plays. We get a false start, errand snap, blocked field goal for a touchdown. Three plays later, ball goes off Saquon’s hands, pick six. On that blocked field goal, Andrew Thomas has his hamstring. When Daniel, [Darren] Waller, Thomas, Saquon, four of your key players on offense going into the season play less than 60 snaps together the entire season … it’s just hard to overcome.”
We need to build depth but it starts on the lines.. Draft is going to be fun.. IMO WR or trade down.. this is a deep draft for what we need..
If you are going to build around guys like Saquon, Jones and Waller, you have to expect you are only going to have small windows when they are all playing.
He is the one who gave Jones the contract. What do you expect him to say? "I'm going to take a mulligan on that one. Yeesh did that back
If you are going to build around guys like Saquon, Jones and Waller, you have to expect you are only going to have small windows when they are all playing.
Great point
Those excuses just roll of his tongue.
Here's an idea, Joe: solve the problems for YOUR roster.
I dont see it that way i think his perspective is correct, I also think he knows he needs to do in this draft and that is continue to build young talent depth
I guarantee Schoen understands risk management and wants to draft a QB high. He is also building a team and I don’t think Schoen believes. We are SB or bust in 2025. We are drafting a QB, If the big ones go 1 2 3 4 and the cost to trade up is high we are getting one later in the draft or are trading for 1. The neck is too risky. The rehab is uncertain.
I think the team understands the position they are in and want to draft a QB.
There is a problem.
Many teams want the same thing.|
The Giants might not do what I want here.
I am OK with that. Good people are making informed decisions now, I believe this even when those decisions are contrary to my opinions.
Those excuses just roll of his tongue.
Here's an idea, Joe: solve the problems for YOUR roster.
I disagree, especially after Maras "let them compete" comment regarding taking a QB early
Those excuses just roll of his tongue.
Here's an idea, Joe: solve the problems for YOUR roster.
Im not going to say anything extreme, but if Daboll, Schoen and Mara hold some collective delusional hope of becoming contenders with DJ then we might be doomed for a while.
BTW i liked Jones as a player
TheBlueprintNC : 1:53 pm : link : reply
but he was not a cornerstone player -you could not depend on him to make the play when it was needed, yes his career would have been much different if he had an OL while he was here but he had a way of coming up small in the big moment. Winning Football to me is having guys that show up when its the time to do so
He did say that they have done this other times as well, but agree that there is no reason to not do real due dilligence on the position especially with Dan coming off serious injuries, right? Also you never know how the draft will fall.
Im of the mindset that if Dabs sees his guy they get him, not fopr nothing but he did a heck of a job with Dan in 22 and Tierod and Tommy cutlets last year.. He obv knows how to gett the most out of the talent and likes a certain skill set and mental makeup
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BTW i liked Jones as a player
TheBlueprintNC : 1:53 pm : link : reply
but he was not a cornerstone player -you could not depend on him to make the play when it was needed, yes his career would have been much different if he had an OL while he was here but he had a way of coming up small in the big moment. Winning Football to me is having guys that show up when its the time to do so
Totally disagree -i watched him play in 22 and he carrried that team to the playoffs and that team was pathetic.. btw Saquaon was MIA many times throughout the season. No Wandale No Wr except a guy named Isaiah -regardless Dan showed up bigly for the team when they needed him too.
Giants root issue continues to be the LoS that has plagued the franchise since that stupid SB Clock was put in the locker room.
Schoen made some big blunders heading into last season. Backup LT and RB's. No third TE who excelled at blocking. Poor punt returner. Good competition for Neal. Etc.
Daboll didn't help matters with his poor preparation and inability to develop a strong running game led by the RB's. That had a huge impact on the D.
How the hell did he misjudge the roster so badly last year? And this year giving up picks for Burns? We're not a player away. The Burns trade seems like Leonard Williams redux.
The focus on the first drive vs Dallas is sadly delusional. Jones completed one pass for no gain on that celebrated drive. He had three off-script scrambles that gained almost 30 yards and Barkley had a few runs.
As soon as Dallas made DJ play QB, the disaster that was the Giants' offense became apparent.
Schoen can't even get the basic facts right. It was NOT "three plays later" (after the blocked FG) that DJ made the throw that went off Barkley's hands. Giants had an intervening possession that lost 10 yards on three plays.
And the INT to Saquon (on the next futile possession) happened on a 3rd and 19. The Giants were going backwards, again, before the INT. The INT wasn't a fluke. It happened because DJ was desperate to make something happen.
The Giants got beat 40-0 that night because they were a lousy team, period.
The only thing I've liked that Schoen has done was trade Leonard Williams for the 2nd round pick. Then he undid that by giving away the better 2nd round pick to pay a lot of money to Brian Burns.
Show us you can build a winning team through the draft or stuff the excuses.
Totally disagree -i watched him play in 22 and he carrried that team to the playoffs and that team was pathetic.. btw Saquaon was MIA many times throughout the season. No Wandale No Wr except a guy named Isaiah -regardless Dan showed up bigly for the team when they needed him too.
In 2022, Daboll and Kafka designed the offense to mask his major flaws, pretty much all their success came off of bootlegs and the quick game to his first read. Defenses adjusted in 2023 and took that away which when you know it's coming isn't tough to do and the result was what we've seen from him for years now, a very limited QB processes things at a glacial pace.
How the hell did he misjudge the roster so badly last year? And this year giving up picks for Burns? We're not a player away. The Burns trade seems like Leonard Williams redux.
The Burns trade was basically getting a 25-year old 1st-round edge rusher for a 2nd round pick and $$$.
It's been almost universally lauded as a really good move.
I'm not sure where your loyalty to him is coming from, but this topic has been beaten to death.
Two huge NYG problems to fix : self-scouting and scouting, and they're still struggling.
Take away those 4TD games in 2019 against absolutely dreadful NYJ & WSH teams and it's even worse.
If NYG goes WR at 6, cut Jones & draft a QB later on. Go with the rookie and Lock.
I could be wrong.
Look at the shift in philosophy. Let your start RB and FS sign for big bucks elsewhere and trade for a stud Edge Rusher.
The Giants also signed 5 OL including a RT who can play OG and a versatile OG.
Schoen is making smart moves.
Oh, I also think Singletary will be pretty damn good this year.
In two drafts and three FA periods Schoen's QB moves have been to decline Jones's 5 year option then pay him $82M guaranteed, sign Tyrod Taylor and let him walk after two years, sign Tommy DeVito as a UDFA, and sign Drew Lock to a cheap one year deal.
To this point there is no indication that Schoen gets it, at least when it comes to the quarterback position.
Tyrod is a China Doll. Semi-talented but fragile. Loved his deep passes. Throws many of his short passes at open WRs feet. I liked him but if you cannot stay on the field you are no good to the team. It was time to move on. Every team has a Tommy DeVito, and he looked better than most 3rd stringers?
Yes Jones, sucks. They need a QB. 90+% of us know that.
If he leaves this draft without a quarterback I take that as confirmation that Jones is his guy.
3 years with a QB and not only do you not even try to replace him but you pay him $82M... that's your QB.
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on target.
If he leaves this draft without a quarterback I take that as confirmation that Jones is his guy.
3 years with a QB and not only do you not even try to replace him but you pay him $82M... that's your QB.
Might just be no man's land. Personally I'd cut Jones as soon as he passes the physical - doesn't cost them a nickel more than if he stays on the roster. Might be $47 mill well spent.
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In comment 16460923 JonC said:
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on target.
If he leaves this draft without a quarterback I take that as confirmation that Jones is his guy.
3 years with a QB and not only do you not even try to replace him but you pay him $82M... that's your QB.
Might just be no man's land. Personally I'd cut Jones as soon as he passes the physical - doesn't cost them a nickel more than if he stays on the roster. Might be $47 mill well spent.
Schoen made this bed. It didn't just happen to him. Schoen's opportunity to rebound from that is this draft.
Paying Jones was unconscionably foolish.
We may not be able to get a QB worthy or dedicating our first round pick to. When I hear him speak glowingly about Jones I take it as no more than a hedged bet with the added benefit of keeping other teams on their toes in the draft.
If they think Maye, McCarthy or Daniels is a true franchise guy and one is there at 6 (or via a reasonable trade) he's going to take him.
I agree about the depth and all of that, we've brought in a lot of at least serviceable OL this offseason, but its not going to stop anyone from taking a QB they think has franchise potential.
To this point there is no indication that Schoen gets it, at least when it comes to the quarterback position.
100%. He's got an awful lot to prove.
I've written a lot times, but it bears repeating. The success of 2022 is considerably more on Daboll than Schoen.
That's because the players who contributed the most to that team's success were acquired by Gettleman. And Daboll coached them.
Burn, Bobby O, KT and Dex is a nice foursome to along the front wall.
I think you really overstate this. Where are all the people who love Jones so much? I see a few posters who defend him, 1 is most likely a huge troll job and the other is ryan. I don't think it's black and white why Jones has not panned out here, but at the same time I want to move on from him very badly. Does that make one a "jones supporter" or whatever else you guys like to say?
2023: For whatever reason, Schoen seems unwilling to part with Barkley in free agency. So instead of franchising Jones (gives the team another "prove it" year) he signs Jones to a ridiculous contract and franchises Barkley, who he should have let walk. Daboll's magic seems to wane as the team seems unprepared for the start of the season, never set on an OL, made strange roster choices (see Sterling Shepard as just one of many).
2024: ????? Are they going to get back on track with the rebuild? Or are they going to still foolishly tie their fate to Jones? As I've posted over and over again, they are clearly trying to upgrade at QB. And fate may conspire against them if an unprecedented 4 QBs go in a row. But Jones isn't the answer. They've got to get his replacement now or next year at the latest. Daboll has to stop the soft camps and preseason and get this team ready for football in September. If players are too fragile to handle practice in August, cut them.
The 2022 season fooled a lot of people in the Giants front office. 2023 was the wakeup call.
At least a king's ransom for Maye at 3 would provide hope for him to boom rather than bust. I wouldn't do it, but they might be all in on Maye at 3 if they can with the fallback option being Nabers at 6.
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Between keeping Shep over Crowder, forcing Gray to return kicks, and a soft AF training camp…I have no idea what anyone in that building was thinking last year. It’s almost like everything they could do wrong, they did.
The 2022 season fooled a lot of people in the Giants front office. 2023 was the wakeup call.
I haven't watched this yet, but the headline reflects the idea that the wakeup call was not received.
Shefter - doesn't see First picking QB while trying to "win now" - ( New Window )
2023: For whatever reason, Schoen seems unwilling to part with Barkley in free agency. So instead of franchising Jones (gives the team another "prove it" year) he signs Jones to a ridiculous contract and franchises Barkley, who he should have let walk. Daboll's magic seems to wane as the team seems unprepared for the start of the season, never set on an OL, made strange roster choices (see Sterling Shepard as just one of many).
2024: ????? Are they going to get back on track with the rebuild? Or are they going to still foolishly tie their fate to Jones? As I've posted over and over again, they are clearly trying to upgrade at QB. And fate may conspire against them if an unprecedented 4 QBs go in a row. But Jones isn't the answer. They've got to get his replacement now or next year at the latest. Daboll has to stop the soft camps and preseason and get this team ready for football in September. If players are too fragile to handle practice in August, cut them.
Good summary Eric. I think you're right that the presence of Barkley and trying to approach Jones and Barkley as a package deal is really where they went wrong. I also think that Bitey is correct that all you're seeing from Schoen and Daboll regarding their Jones comments is the fact that they're hedging. They want to be done with Jones, they're going to try to be done with Jones, but he probably will be on the roster in some capacity.
Schoen and Daboll both own a bad 2023 and need to rebound.
Schoen: Jones and Barkley contract fails, Waller fail, Campbell fail.
Daboll: Used the Joe Judge method of soft training camps, OL shuffle, questionable roster cut downs that impacted special teams and WR, the Gano injury disaster in the rain.
Schoen made this bed. It didn't just happen to him. Schoen's opportunity to rebound from that is this draft.
Paying Jones was unconscionably foolish.
Water under the bridge at this point. The minute they worry about that mistake they are done(learn is different). Happens more than a couple times per season.
We like the same QBs, apparently. Only difference is who is worthy of #6 pick. I am not convinced past McCarthy at #6, yet I'd take Penix or Nix with a small trade back in a heart beat.
I also think that every word Joe Schoen said is true. I think the Giants have failed Daniel Jones just as much if not more than they failed Eli post 2011. But that doesn't mean I think the Giants owe Daniel Jones anything at this point.
Sometimes things don't work out and everything that could go wrong goes wrong. I think Daniel Jones was dealt a pair of 2's and had to play poker with guys holding full houses. But that's how it goes sometimes.
I understand this isn't how it works with athlete's who have the drive and talent to beat the odds and make it to the NFL. But if I was a family member of his I wouldn't be able to watch him take anymore hits.
From what I've read he is one more wrong hit to his neck away from a living a compromised life after football. We're talking about a 27 year old who will have been paid 100 million dollars when 2024 ends. He's got an almost unlimited opportunity for a fantastic life waiting for him after football if he's healthy enough to enjoy it.
You can't make this shit up.
2. when hired, wink was considered a home run by most on his reputation, and it was a known that he/daboll werent familiar with each other. after year 1 wink got some HC consideration (ind finalist?) and i think even some ast of the year consideration because it was considered he did a very good job despite a unit lacking talent (true).
3. nobody knows what they dont know. which is the greatest pitfall of doing things for the first time or hiring people to do things for the first time. daboll and schoen were going to get things wrong, and they did. in year 1 they succeeded in spite of those things they got wrong, in year 2 they didnt. now they do their best to learn from those things and not make the same mistakes over again. they have hired a non-rookie but seemingly low profile DC. they quickly moved on from bobby johnson. id imagine we will see a more physical training camp and fewer shots on injury riddled vets like waller (i suppose we have already seen that in this years FA).
Then he’ll be out of a job. And deservedly so. Tying yourself to Jones…idiocy beyond comprehension.
The Giants are clearly interested in upgrading at QB. Whether it works out or not remains to be seen.
The Giants are clearly interested in upgrading at QB. Whether it works out or not remains to be seen.
I guess what remains to be seen is will they be active in that pursuit (i.e. via talking trades of moving up or getting assets to try again next year) or passive (i.e. just sit there and hope the one guy they like (maye) falls in their laps?
I know you'll say the visits indicate they're being active, but it may also just indicate they're covering all their bases.
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/8/2022 6:01 pm : link
or his "personality" when this edition of his defense allows 30 points for the first time
christian : 9/8/2022 6:57 pm : link
Wink has the personality fans love in a winner, and detest in a loser.
Daboll is more my speed. Wink is a little obnoxious for my taste. But I’m sure I’ll love him if the Giants field a top 10 defense.
Ten Ton and Christian
Jimmy Googs : 9/8/2022 7:06 pm : link
totally agree.
I am not "buying" on Wink just yet. The Daboll output feels more genuine at this point vs. Wink, but let's see how these 2 guys manage the 2022 season.
Turbulence ahead, please fasten your seat-belt...
Hiring that bozo is the worst mistake Daboll has made.
The more telling thing is 30 visits, private meetings, and sending entire staffs to Pro Days. You don't do that unless you are really interested.
Shocked? No.
Because we're in some weird freaking year where four quarterbacks may go in the top 5.
The negatives are adding up and I think he needs to show a lot of progress as a HC regardless of the QB. If this team is again unprepared and not executing the fundamentals of the game pretty consistently they should move on.
This franchise has had some great HC's and standards should remain very high.
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Perhaps, but with this organization…would you be shocked if the QBs we have on the roster right now are still the only QBs we have Week 1? I wouldn’t be.
Shocked? No.
Because we're in some weird freaking year where four quarterbacks may go in the top 5.
Would you be shocked if three of the top 4 went before the giants and then they pass on who is left? Because I wouldn't be.
No.
But the point is not to draft any QB, but the QB who the franchise thinks will be a top 8 QB in the NFL.
If they pass on that guy, I would be shocked.
But if they pass on that guy, that suggests to me they were not sold on him.
Again, the Giants wouldn't be wasting their valuable time and effort on all of these quarterbacks if they weren't trying to replace Jones.
I guess some still want to keep hope alive.
That was me. After winning COY and a playoff game with an incredibly undermanned team, why wouldn't fans feel confident with the right team Daboll could win a Super Bowl?
How the hell did he misjudge the roster so badly last year? And this year giving up picks for Burns? We're not a player away. The Burns trade seems like Leonard Williams redux.
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Brian Burns is waaaaay better than any player we could draft in the 2nd round this year. If you don't make moves to improve a shitty roster how will it ever get better?
There were hundreds of threads two years ago that insisted the Giants must take a RT with one of their top seven picks.
It's not just about the position, but making the right selection.
Or you're in the same spot a year later.(worse for a QB because you'll probably give the dud 3-4 years first).
No.
But the point is not to draft any QB, but the QB who the franchise thinks will be a top 8 QB in the NFL.
If they pass on that guy, I would be shocked.
But if they pass on that guy, that suggests to me they were not sold on him.
Again, the Giants wouldn't be wasting their valuable time and effort on all of these quarterbacks if they weren't trying to replace Jones.
Agreed Eric. I would add that I think if they were really not into McCarthy as some have suggested they would not have had him in for an official visit or done a private workout. The fact that they have gone this deep with him shows to me that they are at least torn on whether he is someone they will trade up for/take at 6 and could still be coming to a final landing spot on that. Same can be said for Maye and Pennix (although I am not sure if they did a workout with him). I think if the Giants were really not into McCarthy they would have kept their interactions with him to a meeting, like they did with Nix and Daniels.
So they may come out of these meetings either loving a guy or saying he's not the right fit.
But I think that would require him to stay healthy all year, run the ball at a productivity level near Ljax or similar, the pass catchers lead the league in YAC, have an elite young running back, and a top 5 defense.
Or more simply everything else around him be great, and not rely on him passing the football.
There were hundreds of threads two years ago that insisted the Giants must take a RT with one of their top seven picks.
It's not just about the position, but making the right selection.
Or you're in the same spot a year later.(worse for a QB because you'll probably give the dud 3-4 years first).
On this Eric I can agree 100%. Drives me crazy on draft night when the Kiper's of this world will spout 'well the Buckeroos have filled a huge need at ... or whatever' after they've made the pick.
I would diagree somewhat with the 'the Giants are trying to replace Jones' argument. They know how the draft works and want to give themselves as many options as they can at the most important position on the field. And one of the prime rules of football is that if you need an elite QB or want one and you have a shot at one you take it.
Myself I have come to a place where I know the Giants are going to get a really good player at #6 or wherever they end up and I am quite prepared at this point to let the process play out and see what they actually do and let them drive themselves crazy trying to figure out all the perms and combs. In the end I don't think there really is a right answer. Certainly there is no answer that is in any way shape or form 'guaranteed!.
No.
But the point is not to draft any QB, but the QB who the franchise thinks will be a top 8 QB in the NFL.
If they pass on that guy, I would be shocked.
But if they pass on that guy, that suggests to me they were not sold on him.
Again, the Giants wouldn't be wasting their valuable time and effort on all of these quarterbacks if they weren't trying to replace Jones.
I get what you're saying but that also leads to post hoc rationalization because the Giants can just use the "he wasn't one of our top rated QB's" as an excuse even if they never intended to take one in the first place.
There were hundreds of threads two years ago that insisted the Giants must take a RT with one of their top seven picks.
It's not just about the position, but making the right selection.
Or you're in the same spot a year later.(worse for a QB because you'll probably give the dud 3-4 years first).
I don't sense that with QB. I think the board understands the risk and the coin toss odds...at best.
However, I do get that "problem solved" vibe with WR. Many on this board think there are sure-things at WR and we'll fix that issue once and for all. I think there is some wishful thinking there, too...
The counter-argument would be "look at the 49ers"... a loaded team who arguably lifts the play of their QB. However, they seem to be an outlier.
Cutting to the chase, does anyone really see Daniel Jones getting close to a Super Bowl? Heck, one can question if Daniel Jones' health will even allow him to be in the NFL three years from now.
So when looking building a team, you have to get the QB. You have to find your Phil Simms, your Eli Manning.
You're operating out of mindset that says unless the Giants draft a QB in the first round, then the draft is a disaster.
I can't agree with you on that. It would be unfortunate, but simply taking a QB doesn't necessarily fix anything.
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fans keep falling for is the notion that drafting a position "fixes" the problem.
There were hundreds of threads two years ago that insisted the Giants must take a RT with one of their top seven picks.
It's not just about the position, but making the right selection.
Or you're in the same spot a year later.(worse for a QB because you'll probably give the dud 3-4 years first).
On this Eric I can agree 100%. Drives me crazy on draft night when the Kiper's of this world will spout 'well the Buckeroos have filled a huge need at ... or whatever' after they've made the pick.
I would diagree somewhat with the 'the Giants are trying to replace Jones' argument. They know how the draft works and want to give themselves as many options as they can at the most important position on the field. And one of the prime rules of football is that if you need an elite QB or want one and you have a shot at one you take it.
Myself I have come to a place where I know the Giants are going to get a really good player at #6 or wherever they end up and I am quite prepared at this point to let the process play out and see what they actually do and let them drive themselves crazy trying to figure out all the perms and combs. In the end I don't think there really is a right answer. Certainly there is no answer that is in any way shape or form 'guaranteed!.
Colin. Good to hear from you!
Not to miller this thread, but I was wondering if you were going to do your annual BBI - Q&A thread this year, and if so, when?
How about Schoen saying he needs better play from the QB and a top 10 highest paid player in the league?
I'm so tired of the excuses with this guy. Why doesn't Evan Neal get the same rope and excuses for him? And he's only 2 seasons in and hasn't gotten a big contract.
How about Schoen saying he needs better play from the QB and a top 10 highest paid player in the league?
I'm so tired of the excuses with this guy. Why doesn't Evan Neal get the same rope and excuses for him? And he's only 2 seasons in and hasn't gotten a big contract.
That's not all that he said, The OP cherry-picked an article that is using quotes from the year-end presser (really old news) and his presser at the Combine and/or annual meeting (old news). For example, Schoen said Neal has to play better. Nothing here is new.
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Only time in history a blocked field goal has completely ended a season. Such an absurd excuse.
How about Schoen saying he needs better play from the QB and a top 10 highest paid player in the league?
I'm so tired of the excuses with this guy. Why doesn't Evan Neal get the same rope and excuses for him? And he's only 2 seasons in and hasn't gotten a big contract.
That's not all that he said, The OP cherry-picked an article that is using quotes from the year-end presser (really old news) and his presser at the Combine and/or annual meeting (old news). For example, Schoen said Neal has to play better. Nothing here is new.
I get that and the post is misleading. But I've heard the excuse that the "blocked FG derailed the season" way too often. I know Thomas got hurt on the play but shouldn't a top 10 paid NFL qb be able to give you a decent passable offense even with some injuries to his surroundings?
The offense needs more talent but he's a major part if not most of the problem. He can't play QB at a high level.
Most of the same fundamentals exist on those type of teams. Strong running game (with your RB's) and very good D is a good place to start.
Right now, the Giants are failing in those fundamentals. Hopefully they are finally addressed heading into year 3.
As for Bobby Johnson -why would a coach want to have his player train with another coach that never worked with him before -btw AT did the same but he went back to his college coach after his rough rookie season...
Neal had Saban as his coach -does anyone really think he didnt understand the player and his talent evaluation? Dallas had him #1 on their board and they seem to know OL pretty well.. so Im really looking forward to seeing what this new coaching and training staff do.. I highly doubt this is a miss as bad as it seems, we shall see
But Schoen did add a lot of talent on both sides of the Oline too. The new Guards will also help the Center who was on his own most of the year
Most of the same fundamentals exist on those type of teams. Strong running game (with your RB's) and very good D is a good place to start.
Right now, the Giants are failing in those fundamentals. Hopefully they are finally addressed heading into year 3.
Define "solid"?
With virtually the same cast of surrounding talent, there was no discernible difference between Daniel Jones and Tommy DeVito. In fact, from a TD perspective, DeVito was the better player.
As for Bobby Johnson -why would a coach want to have his player train with another coach that never worked with him before -btw AT did the same but he went back to his college coach after his rough rookie season...
Neal had Saban as his coach -does anyone really think he didnt understand the player and his talent evaluation? Dallas had him #1 on their board and they seem to know OL pretty well.. so Im really looking forward to seeing what this new coaching and training staff do.. I highly doubt this is a miss as bad as it seems, we shall see
But Schoen did add a lot of talent on both sides of the Oline too. The new Guards will also help the Center who was on his own most of the year
The odds have shifted completely in the favor of Neal being a bust. And the Giants themselves just hedged their bets with the signing of Eluemunor.
You seem to be in denial about much of the roster.
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fans keep falling for is the notion that drafting a position "fixes" the problem.
There were hundreds of threads two years ago that insisted the Giants must take a RT with one of their top seven picks.
It's not just about the position, but making the right selection.
Or you're in the same spot a year later.(worse for a QB because you'll probably give the dud 3-4 years first).
I don't sense that with QB. I think the board understands the risk and the coin toss odds...at best.
However, I do get that "problem solved" vibe with WR. Many on this board think there are sure-things at WR and we'll fix that issue once and for all. I think there is some wishful thinking there, too...
You are too smart to think anyone on here thinks drafting a WR solves anything other than it vastly improves the WR corps. If you truly think that is what people feel than you are so blinded that you cannot comprehend that players in the draft usually take 2 years to reveal who they are.
One other thing that all the QB or bust people have to understand, if they take McCarthy, it is quite doubtful he plays before midseason and I would not be surprised if it isn't until next year. I doubt Daboll throws him to the wolves. It is possible Penix and Nix could play earlier because they have so many more years playing time but Maye and McCarthy have a lot of fixing and learning to do, apparently Maye needs a lot.
While I certainly want a QB, I also understand he will be riding the pine for a while, so next year is likely Lock and Jones in some combo.
So they may come out of these meetings either loving a guy or saying he's not the right fit.
Great point
You're operating out of mindset that says unless the Giants draft a QB in the first round, then the draft is a disaster.
I can't agree with you on that. It would be unfortunate, but simply taking a QB doesn't necessarily fix anything.
I am definitely emotionally scarred lol, but deservedly so. What have the Giants done in the last decade to warrant anything but skepticism?
Absolutely misfire on Johnson by Daboll -Wink was an unknown commodity that talked a good game btw Harbaugh was right
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at least to a championship game with a solid QB. History has shown this in most every decade. I do think expensive and average at your QB position makes it harder.
Most of the same fundamentals exist on those type of teams. Strong running game (with your RB's) and very good D is a good place to start.
Right now, the Giants are failing in those fundamentals. Hopefully they are finally addressed heading into year 3.
Define "solid"?
With virtually the same cast of surrounding talent, there was no discernible difference between Daniel Jones and Tommy DeVito. In fact, from a TD perspective, DeVito was the better player.
Devitto benefitted from a healthier OL the return of Thomas alone was a benefit not to mention Saquaon ws back playing as well.
But DeVito won three games. He threw the ball down the field. He threw three TDs in one game, something Jones hasn't done in years.
The point is one was dirt cheap and the other $160 million.
Jones isn't what you think he is.
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anyone calling Neal a bust needs to look at what he was dealing with - a foot and ankle injury, a weak or unsure Guard next to him and more importantly a coach that thought it would be a good idea for him to train with another coach during last yrs offseason WTF?! -this really sent off the alarm bells for me.. This had disaster written all over it. Daboll leaned on his OL coach too much. I think he learned from it.
As for Bobby Johnson -why would a coach want to have his player train with another coach that never worked with him before -btw AT did the same but he went back to his college coach after his rough rookie season...
Neal had Saban as his coach -does anyone really think he didnt understand the player and his talent evaluation? Dallas had him #1 on their board and they seem to know OL pretty well.. so Im really looking forward to seeing what this new coaching and training staff do.. I highly doubt this is a miss as bad as it seems, we shall see
But Schoen did add a lot of talent on both sides of the Oline too. The new Guards will also help the Center who was on his own most of the year
The odds have shifted completely in the favor of Neal being a bust. And the Giants themselves just hedged their bets with the signing of Eluemunor.
You seem to be in denial about much of the roster.
We shall see about Neal.. but hedging bets is the important lesson they learned from last year no?
But DeVito won three games. He threw the ball down the field. He threw three TDs in one game, something Jones hasn't done in years.
The point is one was dirt cheap and the other $160 million.
Jones isn't what you think he is.
Don’t bother. He is part of the cult.
You're operating out of mindset that says unless the Giants draft a QB in the first round, then the draft is a disaster.
I can't agree with you on that. It would be unfortunate, but simply taking a QB doesn't necessarily fix anything.
It's not that this draft specifically is a disaster with no QB, it's that the Giants are not trying to improve a disaster QB situation.
Schoen inherited a terrible QB room. This will be 3 FA periods, 3 drafts, and 2 trade deadlines where the only move of substance was to give Daniel Jones $82M.
Enough. Schoen will have had 24 draft picks as GM by the time this draft is over. He's had enormous amounts of cap space to work with. Jones/Lock/DeVito is an unacceptable result.
If it comes down to Penix at 6 as the last resort that is better than getting more weapons for Daniel.
Of course we're getting emotional. We care if the Giants win or lose; drafting more weapons for Daniel is going to mean more losing.
Enough.
There were hundreds of threads two years ago that insisted the Giants must take a RT with one of their top seven picks.
It's not just about the position, but making the right selection.
Or you're in the same spot a year later.(worse for a QB because you'll probably give the dud 3-4 years first).
The Giants are one of the only teams that gives a QB that long
Guys drafted with or after Jones that teams moved on
Dwayne Haskins
Drew Lock
Zack Wilson
Mac Jones
Trey Lance
Justin Fields
Kenny Pickett
Sam Howell
Desnond Ridder
The only guys still with teams
Kyler Murray
Justin Herbert
Tua
QBs drafted last year
The lesson I took was that a journeyman backup and undrafted rookie QBd this team to 5-6 while our starting QB was 1-5 with 5 blowout losses
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No, the important lesson from last year was the roster sucks.
The lesson I took was that a journeyman backup and undrafted rookie QBd this team to 5-6 while our starting QB was 1-5 with 5 blowout losses
Yep.
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Given his injury history and injury clause, he shouldn’t even see the field this fall.
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Keep huffing that copium
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Drum up his value, sure, but what are the odds of that. He stinks.
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if Jones plays well early on next season.
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Given his injury history and injury clause, he shouldn’t even see the field this fall.
Perhaps. Depends on how the powers that be view Jones. I think they like him a lot more than you do, but I don't know if I disagree with you. I don't know if I am comfortable either.
But if he does play, he might play well if he's got time to let plays develop. I might even go as far as to say he will definitely play well, at least for his standards.
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Define well.
Well for Daniel Jones? Or well for the rest of the QB universe in the NFL?
No.
But the point is not to draft any QB, but the QB who the franchise thinks will be a top 8 QB in the NFL.
If they pass on that guy, I would be shocked.
But if they pass on that guy, that suggests to me they were not sold on him.
Again, the Giants wouldn't be wasting their valuable time and effort on all of these quarterbacks if they weren't trying to replace Jones.
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Sure it is possible, but the real question - is it probable. The data doesn't support that conclusion.
That's the problem in a nutshell. It's easy to scream "Just Get a QB!" But the talent needs to warrant picking a particular player when he is available. Just picking a QB for the sake of picking a QB is just a dumb approach to drafting.
I like Penix a lot. More so than most here, but I would never advocate picking him at 6. He's a late first/2nd ruond guy for me. You don't pick a Penix if Nabers or Odunze are on the Board. That would be insanity.
As Sy sagaciously said, picking Penix at 6 is putting on cologne when you need a shower.
So unfortunately for us, we might not have a QB available at 6 that is worth the 6th pick in the draft and other teams might be leapfrog us to move up. Nevermind, I don't even know for certain whether Maye or JJM are worth the draft capital required to move up.
So if we don't go QB in the first, it's not necessarily because Schoen doesn't see the need. It's refusing to shop when you're hungry.
Just to remind some, this would be a good thing.
Seems like you think this is some kind of gotcha.
You know what I'd think? I'd be rooting for Jones to do well like I do every game he plays.
And simultaneously I'd be worried about the long term prospects regarding his durability, talent, and cost.
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Look at the draft classes in 2022 and 2023 (and with the latter, where the Giants were picking).
That's the problem in a nutshell. It's easy to scream "Just Get a QB!" But the talent needs to warrant picking a particular player when he is available. Just picking a QB for the sake of picking a QB is just a dumb approach to drafting.
I like Penix a lot. More so than most here, but I would never advocate picking him at 6. He's a late first/2nd ruond guy for me. You don't pick a Penix if Nabers or Odunze are on the Board. That would be insanity.
As Sy sagaciously said, picking Penix at 6 is putting on cologne when you need a shower.
So unfortunately for us, we might not have a QB available at 6 that is worth the 6th pick in the draft and other teams might be leapfrog us to move up. Nevermind, I don't even know for certain whether Maye or JJM are worth the draft capital required to move up.
So if we don't go QB in the first, it's not necessarily because Schoen doesn't see the need. It's refusing to shop when you're hungry.
Putting cologne on is better than smelling like shit. And no one is saying you can't put cologne on today and take a shower tomorrow.
What isn't clear is how drafting Nabers is the equivalent of taking the shower.
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From the guy who built the team.
I dont see it that way I think his perspective is correct, I also think he knows he needs to do in this draft and that is continue to build young talent depth
Correct, agree with you and JS. Many on this board don't like what he's saying because he's citing FACTS that they don't want to hear. I'll go with the professionals, JS and BD anytime rather than the make-believe experts on this board. There will be major disappointment here when the Giants don't trade up for the QB and take a WR at 6. The only exception to my post would be if one of the top 3 QBs was to fall to them at 6 and I don't see that happening, but anything is possible. JS has shown me to be a rational and quality GM who has a plan and won't jump off course at the first sign of disapproval.
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In comment 16460855 The_Boss said:
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From the guy who built the team.
I dont see it that way I think his perspective is correct, I also think he knows he needs to do in this draft and that is continue to build young talent depth
Correct, agree with you and JS. Many on this board don't like what he's saying because he's citing FACTS that they don't want to hear. I'll go with the professionals, JS and BD anytime rather than the make-believe experts on this board. There will be major disappointment here when the Giants don't trade up for the QB and take a WR at 6. The only exception to my post would be if one of the top 3 QBs was to fall to them at 6 and I don't see that happening, but anything is possible. JS has shown me to be a rational and quality GM who has a plan and won't jump off course at the first sign of disapproval.
Schoen is rational?
He did not pick up the 5th year option on Jones for 22 mil and then a year later opts to not tag him at 1/32 and instead signs him for 4/160 and is now exploring QBs at 6
He offered Saquon a contract during the season that he rejects, then he pulls the offer. Then he tags Saquon for 1/11 mil and a long term 3 yr deal falls apart over just over 2 mil spread over 3 years. Then he refuses to trade Saquon during the season on a 2-6 team and then doesn’t tag him and doesn’t sign him to a deal and loses him to our biggest rival.
Shall I go on? Does any of this make a lot of rational sense?
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In comment 16460870 TheBlueprintNC said:
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In comment 16460855 The_Boss said:
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From the guy who built the team.
I dont see it that way I think his perspective is correct, I also think he knows he needs to do in this draft and that is continue to build young talent depth
Correct, agree with you and JS. Many on this board don't like what he's saying because he's citing FACTS that they don't want to hear. I'll go with the professionals, JS and BD anytime rather than the make-believe experts on this board. There will be major disappointment here when the Giants don't trade up for the QB and take a WR at 6. The only exception to my post would be if one of the top 3 QBs was to fall to them at 6 and I don't see that happening, but anything is possible. JS has shown me to be a rational and quality GM who has a plan and won't jump off course at the first sign of disapproval.
Schoen is rational?
He did not pick up the 5th year option on Jones for 22 mil and then a year later opts to not tag him at 1/32 and instead signs him for 4/160 and is now exploring QBs at 6
He offered Saquon a contract during the season that he rejects, then he pulls the offer. Then he tags Saquon for 1/11 mil and a long term 3 yr deal falls apart over just over 2 mil spread over 3 years. Then he refuses to trade Saquon during the season on a 2-6 team and then doesn’t tag him and doesn’t sign him to a deal and loses him to our biggest rival.
Shall I go on? Does any of this make a lot of rational sense?
Aside from the 4/$160 pretty much, yes. And I would have traded Barkley. But I can, and it has been done several times here, defend each of the things you listed.
His biggest move to date has been the Burns trade. What de does at QB will ultimately determine how he does here. It's hard for me to imagine Jones in 2024 as an acceptable option.
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In comment 16460870 TheBlueprintNC said:
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In comment 16460855 The_Boss said:
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From the guy who built the team.
I dont see it that way I think his perspective is correct, I also think he knows he needs to do in this draft and that is continue to build young talent depth
Correct, agree with you and JS. Many on this board don't like what he's saying because he's citing FACTS that they don't want to hear. I'll go with the professionals, JS and BD anytime rather than the make-believe experts on this board. There will be major disappointment here when the Giants don't trade up for the QB and take a WR at 6. The only exception to my post would be if one of the top 3 QBs was to fall to them at 6 and I don't see that happening, but anything is possible. JS has shown me to be a rational and quality GM who has a plan and won't jump off course at the first sign of disapproval.
Schoen is rational?
He did not pick up the 5th year option on Jones for 22 mil and then a year later opts to not tag him at 1/32 and instead signs him for 4/160 and is now exploring QBs at 6
He offered Saquon a contract during the season that he rejects, then he pulls the offer. Then he tags Saquon for 1/11 mil and a long term 3 yr deal falls apart over just over 2 mil spread over 3 years. Then he refuses to trade Saquon during the season on a 2-6 team and then doesn’t tag him and doesn’t sign him to a deal and loses him to our biggest rival.
Shall I go on? Does any of this make a lot of rational sense?
When he didn't pick up DJs option many on this board loved it. DJ had a good year taking Gmen to playoffs with a SUB PAR TEAM. JS and BD, whose opinion on talent I'll take over anyone on this board, thought he was worthy of the contract.
With SB he wasn't going to pay above the scale for running backs and SB was pushing for more, I give JS credit for that. As far as trading him, who knows if he tried and got no takers. I think we all realize running a football team is not a perfect science. Some good moves, some bad. IMO Joe knows what he's doing, give him some rope.