-Daboll loves Nabers
-RV and Woodstock's connected friend say we aren't interested in JJM
-We have been trying to trade up for Maye, but unwilling to pay whatever it takes (reportedly more than 3 1sts)
-Hughes said we like JJM a lot, supposedly this leak angered Schoen
-Vikings are supposedly all in on Maye and appear likely to outbid the Giants if NE is dealing
What this tells me:
Schoen isn't going to pay an insane price for Maye at 3 and that is smart on his part. The odds aren't in our favor trading all that draft capital for a boom or bust prospect when our roster needs a lot of help.
Nabers is our top WR target and as many have speculated Daboll loves the possibilities of having a true Z receiver able to attack defenses from everywhere on the field.
JJM is likely on the table at 6, but not via tradeup, the recent reports about us not liking him smell like they could be an attempt at spreading disinformation knowing we aren't likely to trade up.
My takeaway:
Schoen is planning on letting the draft come to him knowing he will get MHJ, Nabers or JJM at 6 unless he is blown away with a trade-down offer. This is the safest and statistically most sound approach for a team with so many holes.
What do you think?
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In comment 16462493 Eric from BBI said:
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make on the Giants in the QB pursuit the past two seasons is not drafting Brock Purdy.
That and not letting DJ test the open market before giving him that contract.
I'm joking about Purdy. The entire league missed that one, including the 49ers (who took him as an afterthought).
Not letting DJ test the open market was a real headscratcher for me, even moreso than franchise tagging Saquon (he had a great year and we were competitive). I think we could have gotten DJ for about 30 million per year if we let him test the open market. That was the real inexcusable part to me.
And now they're about to enter a draft where they will have access to, at minimum, two quarterbacks who were far more talented prospects than Jones was when he came out and better players than he is now.
I'm willing to give Schoen a mulligan on paying Jones, as stupid as that was. But running it back with him again when there are options - no second mulligan from me.
If Jones is the guy with only Lock and DeVito behind him, I expect a $47M performance. I think that's fair.
And now they're about to enter a draft where they will have access to, at minimum, two quarterbacks who were far more talented prospects than Jones was when he came out and better players than he is now.
I'm willing to give Schoen a mulligan on paying Jones, as stupid as that was. But running it back with him again when there are options - no second mulligan from me.
If Jones is the guy with only Lock and DeVito behind him, I expect a $47M performance. I think that's fair.
No one except Jones cultists are going to say the Jones decision wasn't a huge mistake.
But the options in the draft haven't been there.
Free agency? They signed Taylor in 2022. Last year, they hooked their wagon to Jones. So we're going in a circle at this point.
If your argument is they should have drafted someone in 2022 or 2023, I say who? If your argument is they shouldn't have re-signed Jones, no one is arguing against you.
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In comment 16462447 Eric from BBI said:
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We get it, you and bw in dc want the Giants to take a quarterback. With the exception being that you seem to be OK with any QB and bw doesn't want McCarthy.
If you follow the teams actions (scouting every QB like crazy) and discussions about trading up, they agree with you.
But sometimes it doesn't work out.
Instead of assuming the worst all of the time, perhaps we should wait and see what happens?
I'm not assuming the worst. I actually think they'll end up with McCarthy, if I had to bet on it.
My point is twofold:
1. If they draft a WR it's fair, based on their actions, to expect production now with Daniel Jones as the QB.
2. If they draft a WR, Jones sucks again and the season is over by Halloween, that's on Schoen and Daboll. And they can go.
But I'm staying positive and thinking they're going to draft a QB.
If they draft a QB, he sucks looking no better than Jones and the season is over by Halloween how is that any different than scenario #2 except we have burned a chance at getting a potentially elite WR? Look how Tua changed when they got him Waddle and Hill. He was looking like a for sure don't offer fifth year option and then they were suddenly a playoff team. We can't afford to spend multiple first round picks on QB's because we can't get one that works and still keep this regime.
Good points Mike - Rather off topic, Tua's situation is interesting. Tua's production sky rocketed with the arrival of Mike McDaniel, Tyreke Hill and Jaylen Waddle. That makes it hard to pinpoint what was the most responsible for Tua's massive improvement.
Tua How much of Tua getting better was an impact on his game?
McDaniel may be an offensive Genius, i'm sure he had an impact.
Tyreke and Jalen Waddle's ability to stretch the field vertically and horizontally had an impact.
Mostert was also a 22 addition, although his presence probably had the least impact.
Those are pretty incredible positive changes for a qb in one off-season. At the time, McDaniel was an unproven Head coach, Tua, like you said was looking like he was on his way out of Miami, Tyreke Hill was an exciting add with high expectations, Jaylen Waddle was an interesting addition with his speed, and short area quickness. He also did not have to be the a number 1 which helped.
I find it interesting trying to track down a single point of greatest influence when you have a player who's production makes a significant jump in one year. The same is also interesting for player's who's production falls off not necessarily due to age.
Just some observations.
I think Walsh used to say draft a QB somewhere in the draft every year.
If they want to take an OL in the first round, they should trade down. Taking one of the top two LTs makes little sense. But there are a bunch of OT/OG types in this draft who can help.
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I think you've said this, but the one thing they should get into the "habit" of is drafting a lower round QB every couple of years or so. Take a shot.
I think Walsh used to say draft a QB somewhere in the draft every year.
To be fair, he had 12 rounds. Seven makes it tougher. I would say every 2-3 years.
x1000, teams should keep drafting QB's every 2-4 years until they get the superstar and even then after that person's rookie deal they should probably start doing it again.
As of now we have signed starters for LG, RG and Neal gets his chance at RT. Not really any space for a top draft pick. Maybe day 2 or 3, but I don't see day 1 OL right now personally.
Good points Mike - Rather off topic, Tua's situation is interesting. Tua's production sky rocketed with the arrival of Mike McDaniel, Tyreke Hill and Jaylen Waddle. That makes it hard to pinpoint what was the most responsible for Tua's massive improvement.
Tua How much of Tua getting better was an impact on his game?
McDaniel may be an offensive Genius, i'm sure he had an impact.
Tyreke and Jalen Waddle's ability to stretch the field vertically and horizontally had an impact.
Mostert was also a 22 addition, although his presence probably had the least impact.
Those are pretty incredible positive changes for a qb in one off-season. At the time, McDaniel was an unproven Head coach, Tua, like you said was looking like he was on his way out of Miami, Tyreke Hill was an exciting add with high expectations, Jaylen Waddle was an interesting addition with his speed, and short area quickness. He also did not have to be the a number 1 which helped.
I find it interesting trying to track down a single point of greatest influence when you have a player who's production makes a significant jump in one year. The same is also interesting for player's who's production falls off not necessarily due to age.
Just some observations.
I'm not sure Tua is the answer at QB now either but Miami was 13-8 with him as a starter before all those guys arrived and they didn't just get 1 elite WR, they got 2 of them and have yet to win a playoff game with a window that is tightening very fast.
This particular year I think the Giants should draft TWO quarterbacks. Dump Jones and DeVito, start the first rounder and develop the third string behind Lock.
They have been ignoring this position for so long.
The colleges aren't producing enough QBs. Yeah, there are more teams now than back in the NFL's glory days, but look at the quality of the QBs the NFL used to have even on bad teams.
This particular year I think the Giants should draft TWO quarterbacks. Dump Jones and DeVito, start the first rounder and develop the third string behind Lock.
They have been ignoring this position for so long.
Agreed on trading players part, trading Barkley at the deadline could have led to a top 3 pick and extra draft capital. Judging by Mara's comments on that matter, it seemed he might have had a say.
If this plays out as you outline, and Jones isn't cut as a post-June 1st casualty, then this would be tripling down on Jones, not doubling down. The double down occurred with this asinine second contract.
To me, if you can't secure the QB-of-the-future prospect in this draft, roll with Lock, Cutlets (and maybe a late round QB or UDFA as option #3) and cut Jones because we have reached a circular error in Excel with this guy. He's not working.
So, end the relationship like Denver is doing with a HoF caliber QB in Wilson. Enough of this experiment.
Ask yourself this question. Do you really think Jones is materially better than Lock? I don't.
bw i agree with this take...jones shouldn't play again. my point is only with the people who are saying qb at 6 no matter what and if they don't draft a qb they're all in on jones. that seems nonsensical to me. i get that an individual poster may like nix or pennix, but what if brian daboll doesn't? we should draft a qb he doesn't like over MHJ? thats insane to me. if the chips dont fall our way, roll with lock, add blue chip talent and move forward. cut jones if he can pass a physical or just tell him to stay home if he cant.
Since we are in the lottery, I strongly prefer figuring out a way to grab the next QB prospect.
If that can't be executed, find a trade partner and get the hell out of the sixth slot by moving down.
Because if we can't get the QB, the next best move, IMV, is accumulating more draft capital. I'm not slobbering over the idea of getting an "elite WR" prospect because this draft is loaded with WR talent. If we miss out on Odunze or Nabors - BFD. I'll take the extra picks and upgrade at OL, WR and project QB or corner or edge.
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If this plays out as you outline, and Jones isn't cut as a post-June 1st casualty, then this would be tripling down on Jones, not doubling down. The double down occurred with this asinine second contract.
To me, if you can't secure the QB-of-the-future prospect in this draft, roll with Lock, Cutlets (and maybe a late round QB or UDFA as option #3) and cut Jones because we have reached a circular error in Excel with this guy. He's not working.
So, end the relationship like Denver is doing with a HoF caliber QB in Wilson. Enough of this experiment.
Ask yourself this question. Do you really think Jones is materially better than Lock? I don't.
bw i agree with this take...jones shouldn't play again. my point is only with the people who are saying qb at 6 no matter what and if they don't draft a qb they're all in on jones. that seems nonsensical to me. i get that an individual poster may like nix or pennix, but what if brian daboll doesn't? we should draft a qb he doesn't like over MHJ? thats insane to me. if the chips dont fall our way, roll with lock, add blue chip talent and move forward. cut jones if he can pass a physical or just tell him to stay home if he cant.
Since we are in the lottery, I strongly prefer figuring out a way to grab the next QB prospect.
If that can't be executed, find a trade partner and get the hell out of the sixth slot by moving down.
Because if we can't get the QB, the next best move, IMV, is accumulating more draft capital. I'm not slobbering over the idea of getting an "elite WR" prospect because this draft is loaded with WR talent. If we miss out on Odunze or Nabors - BFD. I'll take the extra picks and upgrade at OL, WR and project QB or corner or edge.
100 % with this lets rebuild this team rather than feeling we chased QB,or were worried about missing a blue chip WR.
The only caveat would be if MHJ falls to us at 6...
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If this plays out as you outline, and Jones isn't cut as a post-June 1st casualty, then this would be tripling down on Jones, not doubling down. The double down occurred with this asinine second contract.
To me, if you can't secure the QB-of-the-future prospect in this draft, roll with Lock, Cutlets (and maybe a late round QB or UDFA as option #3) and cut Jones because we have reached a circular error in Excel with this guy. He's not working.
So, end the relationship like Denver is doing with a HoF caliber QB in Wilson. Enough of this experiment.
Ask yourself this question. Do you really think Jones is materially better than Lock? I don't.
bw i agree with this take...jones shouldn't play again. my point is only with the people who are saying qb at 6 no matter what and if they don't draft a qb they're all in on jones. that seems nonsensical to me. i get that an individual poster may like nix or pennix, but what if brian daboll doesn't? we should draft a qb he doesn't like over MHJ? thats insane to me. if the chips dont fall our way, roll with lock, add blue chip talent and move forward. cut jones if he can pass a physical or just tell him to stay home if he cant.
Since we are in the lottery, I strongly prefer figuring out a way to grab the next QB prospect.
If that can't be executed, find a trade partner and get the hell out of the sixth slot by moving down.
Because if we can't get the QB, the next best move, IMV, is accumulating more draft capital. I'm not slobbering over the idea of getting an "elite WR" prospect because this draft is loaded with WR talent. If we miss out on Odunze or Nabors - BFD. I'll take the extra picks and upgrade at OL, WR and project QB or corner or edge.
I get the feeling Daboll would be pretty mad if we traded down with Nabers there. If an offer blew us away though, lfg!
If the Giants go into next year's draft with just seven picks and needing a QB, that would not be ideal.
Chicago? Not trading. Washington not trading. Pats - probably staying. Cardinals could trade but they’d possibly be passing up the chance to draft one of the receivers from an amazing receiver class.
Giants aren’t going to do something outrageous and trade Kayvon Thibodeaux or Dexter Lawrence along with draft picks for a chance to draft Drake Maye.
You guys need to be realistic about this. It might happen that QBs go 1-2-3 and then Giants might not think whoever the 4th QB is, would be worth their pick at 6. Whether that be McCarthy, Daniels, etc.
Schoen might have MHJ, Odunze, or Nabers as the second or third best player in this draft. We don’t know. Hell the NFL.com guy has Nabers as the best player by a wide margin.
This game of “pick a QB any QB” isn’t how Schoen operates and he has said this repeatedly.
I get the feeling Daboll would be pretty mad if we traded down with Nabers there. If an offer blew us away though, lfg!
If I had to place a bet right now on the likely outcome at #6, I would say we take the "elite WR".
And then the mystery/hope switches to the next pick and if Schoen will chase the next-best-QB-available.
Giants trade down a few spots, pick up a #2 and maybe a #3 in the 2025 draft and still are able to draft Odunze.
Will that happen? Probably not. But that would give the Giants two #2s, two #3s, and 2 #4s (assuming we get a comp pick) next year.
Giants trade down a few spots, pick up a #2 and maybe a #3 in the 2025 draft and still are able to draft Odunze.
Will that happen? Probably not. But that would give the Giants two #2s, two #3s, and 2 #4s (assuming we get a comp pick) next year.
Sign me up
Giants trade down a few spots, pick up a #2 and maybe a #3 in the 2025 draft and still are able to draft Odunze.
Will that happen? Probably not. But that would give the Giants two #2s, two #3s, and 2 #4s (assuming we get a comp pick) next year.
+1
I don't even care for Nix much, but Jones' 4 years at Duke doesn't sniff what Penix and Nix have done the last two years at their respective schools. Even athletically I don't see how Jones is superior to either one. Just a completely speculative pick based on relationships.
Giants trade down a few spots, pick up a #2 and maybe a #3 in the 2025 draft and still are able to draft Odunze.
Will that happen? Probably not. But that would give the Giants two #2s, two #3s, and 2 #4s (assuming we get a comp pick) next year.
As long as it's a 2025 2nd and 2025 3rd I'd go with that and Odunze.
So they clearly need a quarterback to add to the room in 2024. But they need to stop the madness of doing stupid things in the draft. Trading up, when you have one of the three worst rosters in the NFL, makes zero sense. We will likely be drafting again in the top ten next year so the cost of trading up is prohibitive. Especially when our drafting chops have been terrible over the last decade.
The most logical thing to do is to simply take the best player available at six since there are six elite ceiling players in this draft. If one of the three quarterbacks is there (CW, JD, DM), then clearly you take him. If not, then you take one of the three WRs. I am not a fan of trading down - the risk of losing blue chip quality for red chip quantity is simply not appealing given our inability to effectively scout and draft players. The Micah Parsons example could not be more indicative of this franchise stealing defeat from the jaws of victory on draft day. Don't overthink it. We are guaranteed a blue chip player if we simply sit tight.
If we don't get a quarterback at six, then you take your shot on a quarterback on day two or three. If Schoen can trade up to get one of the second tier quarterbacks, great, but not if it costs the 2025 first round pick. Clearly, though, Schoen must come out of this draft with a rookie quarterback at some point. Maybe the next Dak Prescott or Brock Purdy in the later rounds?
And I agree with GT that every year we should be introducing a rookie quarterback to the room, rotating out players who have not exhibited elite ceiling NFL talent.
So they clearly need a quarterback to add to the room in 2024. But they need to stop the madness of doing stupid things in the draft. Trading up, when you have one of the three worst rosters in the NFL, makes zero sense. We will likely be drafting again in the top ten next year so the cost of trading up is prohibitive. Especially when our drafting chops have been terrible over the last decade.
The most logical thing to do is to simply take the best player available at six since there are six elite ceiling players in this draft. If one of the three quarterbacks is there (CW, JD, DM), then clearly you take him. If not, then you take one of the three WRs. I am not a fan of trading down - the risk of losing blue chip quality for red chip quantity is simply not appealing given our inability to effectively scout and draft players. The Micah Parsons example could not be more indicative of this franchise stealing defeat from the jaws of victory on draft day. Don't overthink it. We are guaranteed a blue chip player if we simply sit tight.
If we don't get a quarterback at six, then you take your shot on a quarterback on day two or three. If Schoen can trade up to get one of the second tier quarterbacks, great, but not if it costs the 2025 first round pick. Clearly, though, Schoen must come out of this draft with a rookie quarterback at some point. Maybe the next Dak Prescott or Brock Purdy in the later rounds?
And I agree with GT that every year we should be introducing a rookie quarterback to the room, rotating out players who have not exhibited elite ceiling NFL talent.
I pretty much agree with everything you are saying here, except the question is, do you take JJM at #6, and/or maybe Penix. I'm really on the fence about JJM and I'll trust Brian Daboll knows what he's doing if we draft him. Penix feels like you can get cute and maybe draft the WR and then trade back into first round to snag Penix, though risky.
Giants trade down a few spots, pick up a #2 and maybe a #3 in the 2025 draft and still are able to draft Odunze.
Will that happen? Probably not. But that would give the Giants two #2s, two #3s, and 2 #4s (assuming we get a comp pick) next year.
with their top picks in qb gone they should absolutely be looking to trade back and probably more than once. ideally for future picks but adding two/three more top 100 picks this year could really go a long way. With how the depth is lining up in this draft. They could potentially address WR, RB, IOL, TE, DT and DB with legit starting caliber prospect in the first 3 rounds.
Giants trade down a few spots, pick up a #2 and maybe a #3 in the 2025 draft and still are able to draft Odunze.
Will that happen? Probably not. But that would give the Giants two #2s, two #3s, and 2 #4s (assuming we get a comp pick) next year.
I love this scenario. Albeit it unlikely. Secure a blue chip WR AND more ammo for the QB next year. You posted the thread about it being from Chicago from 9 right? Would just need a few OL and maybe someone like Dallas Turner?? to go 7,8,9.
Yeah, if 4 QBs go top 5 then there's a reasonable chance we could get one of the top 3 receivers at 9. Or maybe Penix could be a fallback option.
It would be pretty exciting if we traded back with Chi to get Odunze or Nabers and then Penix made it to the 20s and we were able to trade pick 47 and o e of the 2035 2nds to get Penix too.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
I am not Eric, but having that alpha WR is more important for team success versus having an elite RB. If you look at every playoff team in recent years other than the 2022 Giants, who was making it with someone like Darius Slayton as your WR1? I know you frequently bring up Xavier Legette in Round 2, but if you look at BBI Mock Draft he was long gone and that was even before Buffalo dealt Diggs opening up another WR need before pick 47.
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In comment 16462387 Eric from BBI said:
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
I am not Eric, but having that alpha WR is more important for team success versus having an elite RB. If you look at every playoff team in recent years other than the 2022 Giants, who was making it with someone like Darius Slayton as your WR1? I know you frequently bring up Xavier Legette in Round 2, but if you look at BBI Mock Draft he was long gone and that was even before Buffalo dealt Diggs opening up another WR need before pick 47.
The Chiefs just won back to back Super Bowls with Rashee Rice and JuJu Smith-Schuster as their WR1 in those seasons. Rice had a solid rookie year, and JuJu was good like 5 years ago, but neither of them even close to qualify as an alpha WR.
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
WRs are among the highest paid positions in the league, RB is the lowest. That's not comparable, Terps.
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In comment 16462387 Eric from BBI said:
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
I am not Eric, but having that alpha WR is more important for team success versus having an elite RB. If you look at every playoff team in recent years other than the 2022 Giants, who was making it with someone like Darius Slayton as your WR1? I know you frequently bring up Xavier Legette in Round 2, but if you look at BBI Mock Draft he was long gone and that was even before Buffalo dealt Diggs opening up another WR need before pick 47.
We collectively overrate and underrate players, the BBI mock probably isn't a good reference for saying a player won't last. And I like Leggette a lot as many do here.
I'm starting to really wonder if Nabers makes it to 6. He's consistently rated in the top 3 overall, some have him #1. He would absolutely be worth pick 6.
Good point, Patriots could be bluffing and take a more reasonable offer from us if they have a plan at pick 6 they like. Minnesota could also already have a deal ready to get to 3 through the LAC.
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In comment 16462387 Eric from BBI said:
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
WRs are among the highest paid positions in the league, RB is the lowest. That's not comparable, Terps.
I'd argue the NFL is making a general error paying WRs as much as they do, and I wonder if we're going to start to see a change in how they're treated.
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In comment 16463030 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16462387 Eric from BBI said:
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
WRs are among the highest paid positions in the league, RB is the lowest. That's not comparable, Terps.
I'd argue the NFL is making a general error paying WRs as much as they do, and I wonder if we're going to start to see a change in how they're treated.
Even so, they aren't comparable to RBs. Look at McCaffrey trade value vs Adams or Hill. It's a passing league and dominant WRs are nearly up there with LT and edge rushers because of their effect on the pass game.
One thing that concerns me about WR is the variable duration of their prime years. For some it's 22-27 (like obj) for some it's 24-32 (Adams). I imagine if you analyzed this you would see a correlation between shorter prime years for production with players whom game is predicated on speed and agility vs route running and smarts.
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In comment 16463030 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16462387 Eric from BBI said:
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
Eric I was thinking about this comment before and I have a question:
If there were a running back with a 90+ grade on this draft would you want to draft him over one of the quarterbacks?
WRs are among the highest paid positions in the league, RB is the lowest. That's not comparable, Terps.
I'd argue the NFL is making a general error paying WRs as much as they do, and I wonder if we're going to start to see a change in how they're treated.
Like RBs though, WRs often come out productive right out the gate. So, that's another plus for a WR pick. Don't get me wrong I'd prefer QB and I admittedly really like JJM. If Daboll loved Nabers and pounds the table for him, you gotta believe he will make some magic happen with an elite Z wr prospect.