-Daboll loves Nabers
-RV and Woodstock's connected friend say we aren't interested in JJM
-We have been trying to trade up for Maye, but unwilling to pay whatever it takes (reportedly more than 3 1sts)
-Hughes said we like JJM a lot, supposedly this leak angered Schoen
-Vikings are supposedly all in on Maye and appear likely to outbid the Giants if NE is dealing
What this tells me:
Schoen isn't going to pay an insane price for Maye at 3 and that is smart on his part. The odds aren't in our favor trading all that draft capital for a boom or bust prospect when our roster needs a lot of help.
Nabers is our top WR target and as many have speculated Daboll loves the possibilities of having a true Z receiver able to attack defenses from everywhere on the field.
JJM is likely on the table at 6, but not via tradeup, the recent reports about us not liking him smell like they could be an attempt at spreading disinformation knowing we aren't likely to trade up.
My takeaway:
Schoen is planning on letting the draft come to him knowing he will get MHJ, Nabers or JJM at 6 unless he is blown away with a trade-down offer. This is the safest and statistically most sound approach for a team with so many holes.
What do you think?
So the only choice for the Pats is to trade down to AZ, knowing that Minn is coming up for Maye. They need 3 1st round picks because AZ is probably demanding 1 plus.
The Giants are left with the WR's that the Chargers or whoever is picking in the 5th slot don't choose.
They want to move on from DJ. Obvious. But don't take a QB you aren't sold on, just because you need to try and try again. Sooner or later Giants need to pull the trigger on finding a replacement, and not keep punting, but if the QB you want isn't available, no fliers at 6.
Agreed, but I don't think if they take JJM over Odunze at 6 then that should be considered taking a flier on a QB. That would suggest they believe in JJM a lot. Nix over Nabers at 6 though, then yeah that would be a real head scratcher to me. Either way, I don't think we have to worry about Schoen taking a flier on QB over an elite WR prospect at 6.
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I totally understand the frustration with Jones and I 100% want a new qb. I am done with Jones. But there is a reality where the following happens:
-Caleb goes 1...no chance trade up.
- Daniels goes 2...no chance to trade up
- Maye goes 3...either Pats won't trade or they want something insane. Either way we can't feasibly get him.
- Vikings offer 3 one's and two 2's for JJM at 4...Cards tell us we'd need something similar just to move up from 6. Daboll and Schoen don't think he's a prospect to do that for.
- Daboll doesn't love Nix or Pennix and doesn't see them as close to a first round prospect.
I see people saying if we don't take a QB at 6 it means this regime is "doubling down" on Jones or proving that they are just going business as usual for the giants. But what about that scenario above? What if they love the top 3 and literally don't have the opportunity to get one? What if they've offered three ones to the Pats and been rebuffed? Can we really say that black and white that no QB at 6 means they are all in on jones? I don't think that's reality.
If this plays out as you outline, and Jones isn't cut as a post-June 1st casualty, then this would be tripling down on Jones, not doubling down. The double down occurred with this asinine second contract.
To me, if you can't secure the QB-of-the-future prospect in this draft, roll with Lock, Cutlets (and maybe a late round QB or UDFA as option #3) and cut Jones because we have reached a circular error in Excel with this guy. He's not working.
So, end the relationship like Denver is doing with a HoF caliber QB in Wilson. Enough of this experiment.
Ask yourself this question. Do you really think Jones is materially better than Lock? I don't.
bw i agree with this take...jones shouldn't play again. my point is only with the people who are saying qb at 6 no matter what and if they don't draft a qb they're all in on jones. that seems nonsensical to me. i get that an individual poster may like nix or pennix, but what if brian daboll doesn't? we should draft a qb he doesn't like over MHJ? thats insane to me. if the chips dont fall our way, roll with lock, add blue chip talent and move forward. cut jones if he can pass a physical or just tell him to stay home if he cant.
I've said for a couple of weeks that I think there is a good shot Harrison is there.
A lot of people think Nabers may go before Harrison.
This - which makes 6 a great position to potentially get the best player in the entire draft.
So the only choice for the Pats is to trade down to AZ, knowing that Minn is coming up for Maye. They need 3 1st round picks because AZ is probably demanding 1 plus.
The Giants are left with the WR's that the Chargers or whoever is picking in the 5th slot don't choose.
Why wouldn't NE just take JJM at 3 then?
So the only choice for the Pats is to trade down to AZ, knowing that Minn is coming up for Maye. They need 3 1st round picks because AZ is probably demanding 1 plus.
The Giants are left with the WR's that the Chargers or whoever is picking in the 5th slot don't choose.
Sounds like the Pats organization is a super loosely ran ship, or there is a lot of smoke and reports that need to be taken with a grain of salt. If the chowdahead chatta is correct, then bring on Nabers or MHJ or a trade down (maybe Penix plus a 2 and 3?)
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There's been plenty of chatter up here. The Pats are going QB, they love Daniels and fully expect him to be gone. However, ownership thinks that JJM is the next coming of TB12.
So the only choice for the Pats is to trade down to AZ, knowing that Minn is coming up for Maye. They need 3 1st round picks because AZ is probably demanding 1 plus.
The Giants are left with the WR's that the Chargers or whoever is picking in the 5th slot don't choose.
Why wouldn't NE just take JJM at 3 then?
If they can setup a trade where they get JJM plus an extra 1st, that would be a no Brainer. LAC is the team most likely willing to move down to 11, then they go up to 3 from 5 for Maye and Pats get JJM plus a future 1st or more. Would seem better than just taking JJM at 3?
I know Jones is working very hard and he expects to be ready.....
I am very curious to see if he coordinates another camp at Duke or some place nicer......that will be telling.
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In comment 16462414 dd in Mass said:
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There's been plenty of chatter up here. The Pats are going QB, they love Daniels and fully expect him to be gone. However, ownership thinks that JJM is the next coming of TB12.
So the only choice for the Pats is to trade down to AZ, knowing that Minn is coming up for Maye. They need 3 1st round picks because AZ is probably demanding 1 plus.
The Giants are left with the WR's that the Chargers or whoever is picking in the 5th slot don't choose.
Why wouldn't NE just take JJM at 3 then?
If they can setup a trade where they get JJM plus an extra 1st, that would be a no Brainer. LAC is the team most likely willing to move down to 11, then they go up to 3 from 5 for Maye and Pats get JJM plus a future 1st or more. Would seem better than just taking JJM at 3?
Maneuvering like that is pretty rare. It's definitely better, but something so complicated would probably need to be worked out in advance.
Then there's this recent report:
“Daniels is rumored to be intent on playing for New England after Daniels’ meeting with Washington didn’t go as smoothly,” says @evansilva.
I believe this is the reporter generating the big JJM to NE buzz:
Giardi said he knows “for a fact” that New England likes McCarthy.
“The question then becomes, how much? He is the youngest of the QBs in this draft, and his tape, while somewhat limited because of the type of team Michigan was, is good,” Giardi said of McCarthy. “He’s such a loose athlete and moves better than I had in my mind’s eye from watching him during the year. Is he ready to assume the number one chair from day one? Unlikely. But there’s no rush. His intelligence is right up at the top of this class, and fundamentally, McCarthy has a better base than (Drake) Maye.”
That reporter has Maye going 2 and Patriots taking JJM over Jayden Daniels at 3. Seems like a bunch of contradictory information just like we have for the NYG. If that unlikely scenario played out, I would be on board with trading a haul for Jayden Daniels. I don't think he is as much of a boom or bust prospect as Maye. Nevertheless, this reporters proposed order of the top 3 leads me to severely question whether he has any actual information.
If you follow the teams actions (scouting every QB like crazy) and discussions about trading up, they agree with you.
But sometimes it doesn't work out.
Instead of assuming the worst all of the time, perhaps we should wait and see what happens?
So the only choice for the Pats is to trade down to AZ, knowing that Minn is coming up for Maye. They need 3 1st round picks because AZ is probably demanding 1 plus.
The Giants are left with the WR's that the Chargers or whoever is picking in the 5th slot don't choose.
This is the scenario I heard talked about today.
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In comment 16462423 LW_Giants said:
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In comment 16462414 dd in Mass said:
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There's been plenty of chatter up here. The Pats are going QB, they love Daniels and fully expect him to be gone. However, ownership thinks that JJM is the next coming of TB12.
So the only choice for the Pats is to trade down to AZ, knowing that Minn is coming up for Maye. They need 3 1st round picks because AZ is probably demanding 1 plus.
The Giants are left with the WR's that the Chargers or whoever is picking in the 5th slot don't choose.
Why wouldn't NE just take JJM at 3 then?
If they can setup a trade where they get JJM plus an extra 1st, that would be a no Brainer. LAC is the team most likely willing to move down to 11, then they go up to 3 from 5 for Maye and Pats get JJM plus a future 1st or more. Would seem better than just taking JJM at 3?
Maneuvering like that is pretty rare. It's definitely better, but something so complicated would probably need to be worked out in advance.
Agreed 100%, more likely the Pats would just take the entire haul from NE at take Fashanu or BTJ or Penix or Nix at 11. None of these reports and rumors can be taken at face value, especially this late in the process. Last I checked Dave Gettleman didn't have a GM job, if he was Patriots GM then I would believe reporters saying they liked x player 100%.
What I can say with certainty is if we stay at 6 we can get MHJ or Nabers or JJM and I think this is Schoen's plan as it stands.
I am surmising that MN really loves Maye, why else would they pay a king's ransom. That's the only way the Pats move down. And it's only going to be the 4th spot.
AZ is playing hardball figuring that they can get a better deal just working with MN directly. That's the conundrum for the Pats, how much of the draft haul with MN do they get to keep.
Or maybe they say screw it and take Penix or Nix at the 11th spot.
If you follow the teams actions (scouting every QB like crazy) and discussions about trading up, they agree with you.
But sometimes it doesn't work out.
Instead of assuming the worst all of the time, perhaps we should wait and see what happens?
I won't pretend to speak for bw and Terps, but for me the QB issue is so frustrating because it's a microcosm of what's been plaguing the Giants for the better part of 12 years....mismanagement, poor self-evaluation, undeserved loyalty, and an unceasing desire for instant gratification at the expense of building a true winner.
I am not on board with choosing any qb at 6. If they draft Rattler there, I'm gonna be pissed. However, I am of the opinion that we desperately need to start taking chances again on a QB. If that means trading way down to collect assets for a qb in 25 because the top 4 QB's go before us, then so be it. But there has to be a plan beyond every year winning 4-6 games and then saying "the price of moving up is too rich for our blood, oh well maybe next time!"
So you're advocating the Giants simply take Penix and Nix at 6.
That's OK, but go on record as saying so.
If you follow the teams actions (scouting every QB like crazy) and discussions about trading up, they agree with you.
But sometimes it doesn't work out.
Instead of assuming the worst all of the time, perhaps we should wait and see what happens?
I'm not assuming the worst. I actually think they'll end up with McCarthy, if I had to bet on it.
My point is twofold:
1. If they draft a WR it's fair, based on their actions, to expect production now with Daniel Jones as the QB.
2. If they draft a WR, Jones sucks again and the season is over by Halloween, that's on Schoen and Daboll. And they can go.
But I'm staying positive and thinking they're going to draft a QB.
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Have family in New England and that’s the consensus in local media…Pats take JMM.
Then there's this recent report:
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“Daniels is rumored to be intent on playing for New England after Daniels’ meeting with Washington didn’t go as smoothly,” says @evansilva.
I believe this is the reporter generating the big JJM to NE buzz:
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Giardi said he knows “for a fact” that New England likes McCarthy.
“The question then becomes, how much? He is the youngest of the QBs in this draft, and his tape, while somewhat limited because of the type of team Michigan was, is good,” Giardi said of McCarthy. “He’s such a loose athlete and moves better than I had in my mind’s eye from watching him during the year. Is he ready to assume the number one chair from day one? Unlikely. But there’s no rush. His intelligence is right up at the top of this class, and fundamentally, McCarthy has a better base than (Drake) Maye.”
That reporter has Maye going 2 and Patriots taking JJM over Jayden Daniels at 3. Seems like a bunch of contradictory information just like we have for the NYG. If that unlikely scenario played out, I would be on board with trading a haul for Jayden Daniels. I don't think he is as much of a boom or bust prospect as Maye. Nevertheless, this reporters proposed order of the top 3 leads me to severely question whether he has any actual information.
I don't know what to believe now that it's lying season. lol
"
John Frascella (Football)
@LegendSports7
NFL DRAFT CONFLICTING REPORTS:
Evan Silva reported a rocky meeting between Jayden Daniels and the Commanders earlier today, but my source is telling me Daniels hasn't met with the Commanders... since The Combine!
This has a quasi-confirmation from Ben Standig, who works the Commanders beat very closely.
It's like the Wild West out here!!"
I am surmising that MN really loves Maye, why else would they pay a king's ransom. That's the only way the Pats move down. And it's only going to be the 4th spot.
AZ is playing hardball figuring that they can get a better deal just working with MN directly. That's the conundrum for the Pats, how much of the draft haul with MN do they get to keep.
Or maybe they say screw it and take Penix or Nix at the 11th spot.
Rhe most plausible scenario for this to work is Minnesota trades 11 and 23 to LAC for pick 5, then they trade up with Pats for 2025 1st and 3rd or more. That would still leave a chance for a team trading up with AZ for JJM if that's really the Pats plan so maybe Minnesota would have to trade 11 and 23 to LAC for 5 then 2025 3rd to AZ for 4, then 2025 1st to NE for 3. I don't think it's a straightforward scenario and I think it's purely conjecture. No GMs are leaking these specifics on their plans and trade maneuvers.
But I'm not willing to take any QB over one of these receivers if things don't fall their way/they can't trade up.
I'd prefer to get the QB now if they can, but they might not be able to. If the season goes the way you expect, they'll have another shot with a new regime in 2025. (You may want that anyway because the new regime should pick their own QB).
So you're advocating the Giants simply take Penix and Nix at 6.
That's OK, but go on record as saying so.
Oh no, that's not what I'm advocating for lol. In an ideal world (assuming the top 4 QB's are gone), I would move down as far as it took to get a first or two firsts in next year's draft. Go all in on assets for 25 so we can move up and get the QB next year. Not so dissimilar from what Vikings have done in this draft.
Yes, you miss out on the "blue chip" wide receivers this year in such a scenario, but it's a deep WR draft and frankly I don't want to win 6-9 games. I want to either win 10+ or be picking in the top 4 next season.
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Every draft pick can bust.
But Sy has 90+ grades on these guys.
He also has McCarthy's ceiling as Joe Burrow, Maye's as Eli Manning, Nix as Deshaun Watson, and Penix as Jordan Love.
There isn't a WR in the NFL worth Burrow or Love in trade. Not Hill, not Jefferson.
Draft one of these QBs and install a system that tailor's to their strengths. This wouldn't be drafting Daniel Jones at 6. These guys are all talented.
Just because their ceiling is that does not mean that they will come anywhere close to their ceiling. Some could need a million different things to go right to hit that, but if everything does then yes they have that ceiling. That is why Sy also talked about realistic upside.
Yes I agree and I do believe the Vikings asshat info about them being all in on Maye with Penix as their fallback option.
The biggest assumption out there is that the Vikings traded up for another 1st rounder to move up. But we learned yesterday that they did not initiate that trade.
What I'm getting at is they may be OK staying where they are and getting Penix.
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If you trade down in hopes of drafting Penix or Nix, the Raiders and Broncos will jump you.
So you're advocating the Giants simply take Penix and Nix at 6.
That's OK, but go on record as saying so.
Oh no, that's not what I'm advocating for lol. In an ideal world (assuming the top 4 QB's are gone), I would move down as far as it took to get a first or two firsts in next year's draft. Go all in on assets for 25 so we can move up and get the QB next year. Not so dissimilar from what Vikings have done in this draft.
Yes, you miss out on the "blue chip" wide receivers this year in such a scenario, but it's a deep WR draft and frankly I don't want to win 6-9 games. I want to either win 10+ or be picking in the top 4 next season.
In that scenario the only team I see us getting a 2025 1st from is the Jaguars trading up for a WR. I don't see their 2025 1st being very high and it doesn't seem like a good alternative to Nabers or MHJ at 6. Maybe we continue trading down from their BB style, but then what if it's like this year and the top 2 QBs are locked in with the top 2 teams unwilling to trade? I'd rather just take Nabers or MHJ or a trade down to 9 with hopes of Odunze or Penix.
It's been in their hands for three years.
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be a pretty great fit for the Vikings? Maybe even better than Maye? The injury history is obviously there, but his deep ball with their receiving corp could be deadly. And he wouldn't cost nearly as much.
The biggest assumption out there is that the Vikings traded up for another 1st rounder to move up. But we learned yesterday that they did not initiate that trade.
What I'm getting at is they may be OK staying where they are and getting Penix.
Right! That's what I'm saying, Penix fits their offense perfectly, wouldn't cost future firsts and they can use their second first rounder to either beef up the defense or take an o-lineman to protect him. If I was a Vikings fan, I'd be pretty torn between doing that and trading 3 firsts and more for Maye.
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We get it, you and bw in dc want the Giants to take a quarterback. With the exception being that you seem to be OK with any QB and bw doesn't want McCarthy.
If you follow the teams actions (scouting every QB like crazy) and discussions about trading up, they agree with you.
But sometimes it doesn't work out.
Instead of assuming the worst all of the time, perhaps we should wait and see what happens?
I'm not assuming the worst. I actually think they'll end up with McCarthy, if I had to bet on it.
My point is twofold:
1. If they draft a WR it's fair, based on their actions, to expect production now with Daniel Jones as the QB.
2. If they draft a WR, Jones sucks again and the season is over by Halloween, that's on Schoen and Daboll. And they can go.
But I'm staying positive and thinking they're going to draft a QB.
If they draft a QB, he sucks looking no better than Jones and the season is over by Halloween how is that any different than scenario #2 except we have burned a chance at getting a potentially elite WR? Look how Tua changed when they got him Waddle and Hill. He was looking like a for sure don't offer fifth year option and then they were suddenly a playoff team. We can't afford to spend multiple first round picks on QB's because we can't get one that works and still keep this regime.
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I still get the sense that you don't realize that this is largely out of the Giants' hands.
It's been in their hands for three years.
Yes and no.
2022: They did not extend his option. They had the #5 and #7 picks a draft with no quarterbacks. None.
2023: The Giants have the 25th pick. Young, Stroud, and Richardson went in the top 4. You wanted the Giants to draft Will Levis in the first round? I guess you can say that had their own fate in their hands.
We are picking 6th. Other teams may not want to trade out in such a solid draft at the very top. Or the cost is prohibitive.
I agree with all of you - go get the QB...IF YOU CAN. Big "if".... Don't force-feed a QB that you don't believe in at #6.
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In comment 16462477 Eric from BBI said:
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I still get the sense that you don't realize that this is largely out of the Giants' hands.
It's been in their hands for three years.
Yes and no.
2022: They did not extend his option. They had the #5 and #7 picks a draft with no quarterbacks. None.
2023: The Giants have the 25th pick. Young, Stroud, and Richardson went in the top 4. You wanted the Giants to draft Will Levis in the first round? I guess you can say that had their own fate in their hands.
Eric, he has said elsewhere that we would have been better off taking Wills, Pickett, or Ridder with one of our 1st round picks in 2022 because we would have known by now that they were a bust and dumped them while drafting another QB in Round 1 this year with less money invested/dead cap than keeping Daniel Jones.
Just really stupid, especially when you consider they just let Saquon walk.
That and not letting DJ test the open market before giving him that contract.
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make on the Giants in the QB pursuit the past two seasons is not drafting Brock Purdy.
That and not letting DJ test the open market before giving him that contract.
I'm joking about Purdy. The entire league missed that one, including the 49ers (who took him as an afterthought).
I personally would've used a 2nd or moved up in the 3rd on Hooker last year. He would've had an opportunity to start last year and they could potentially have their next QB already on the roster on a cheap contract. If not, then all you lose is JMS or Hyatt neither of which are likely to be future all pro's.
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In comment 16462493 Eric from BBI said:
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make on the Giants in the QB pursuit the past two seasons is not drafting Brock Purdy.
That and not letting DJ test the open market before giving him that contract.
I'm joking about Purdy. The entire league missed that one, including the 49ers (who took him as an afterthought).
Not letting DJ test the open market was a real headscratcher for me, even moreso than franchise tagging Saquon (he had a great year and we were competitive). I think we could have gotten DJ for about 30 million per year if we let him test the open market. That was the real inexcusable part to me.
And now they're about to enter a draft where they will have access to, at minimum, two quarterbacks who were far more talented prospects than Jones was when he came out and better players than he is now.
I'm willing to give Schoen a mulligan on paying Jones, as stupid as that was. But running it back with him again when there are options - no second mulligan from me.
If Jones is the guy with only Lock and DeVito behind him, I expect a $47M performance. I think that's fair.
And now they're about to enter a draft where they will have access to, at minimum, two quarterbacks who were far more talented prospects than Jones was when he came out and better players than he is now.
I'm willing to give Schoen a mulligan on paying Jones, as stupid as that was. But running it back with him again when there are options - no second mulligan from me.
If Jones is the guy with only Lock and DeVito behind him, I expect a $47M performance. I think that's fair.
No one except Jones cultists are going to say the Jones decision wasn't a huge mistake.
But the options in the draft haven't been there.
Free agency? They signed Taylor in 2022. Last year, they hooked their wagon to Jones. So we're going in a circle at this point.
If your argument is they should have drafted someone in 2022 or 2023, I say who? If your argument is they shouldn't have re-signed Jones, no one is arguing against you.
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In comment 16462447 Eric from BBI said:
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We get it, you and bw in dc want the Giants to take a quarterback. With the exception being that you seem to be OK with any QB and bw doesn't want McCarthy.
If you follow the teams actions (scouting every QB like crazy) and discussions about trading up, they agree with you.
But sometimes it doesn't work out.
Instead of assuming the worst all of the time, perhaps we should wait and see what happens?
I'm not assuming the worst. I actually think they'll end up with McCarthy, if I had to bet on it.
My point is twofold:
1. If they draft a WR it's fair, based on their actions, to expect production now with Daniel Jones as the QB.
2. If they draft a WR, Jones sucks again and the season is over by Halloween, that's on Schoen and Daboll. And they can go.
But I'm staying positive and thinking they're going to draft a QB.
If they draft a QB, he sucks looking no better than Jones and the season is over by Halloween how is that any different than scenario #2 except we have burned a chance at getting a potentially elite WR? Look how Tua changed when they got him Waddle and Hill. He was looking like a for sure don't offer fifth year option and then they were suddenly a playoff team. We can't afford to spend multiple first round picks on QB's because we can't get one that works and still keep this regime.
Good points Mike - Rather off topic, Tua's situation is interesting. Tua's production sky rocketed with the arrival of Mike McDaniel, Tyreke Hill and Jaylen Waddle. That makes it hard to pinpoint what was the most responsible for Tua's massive improvement.
Tua How much of Tua getting better was an impact on his game?
McDaniel may be an offensive Genius, i'm sure he had an impact.
Tyreke and Jalen Waddle's ability to stretch the field vertically and horizontally had an impact.
Mostert was also a 22 addition, although his presence probably had the least impact.
Those are pretty incredible positive changes for a qb in one off-season. At the time, McDaniel was an unproven Head coach, Tua, like you said was looking like he was on his way out of Miami, Tyreke Hill was an exciting add with high expectations, Jaylen Waddle was an interesting addition with his speed, and short area quickness. He also did not have to be the a number 1 which helped.
I find it interesting trying to track down a single point of greatest influence when you have a player who's production makes a significant jump in one year. The same is also interesting for player's who's production falls off not necessarily due to age.
Just some observations.