It feels like history is repeating itself. I don't need to rehash it, but NYG has the opportunity to draft a shiny WR for a team that has a poor foundation in place. I get the argument for blue chip talent, but you know who was blue chip talent? Saquon Barkley. We heard all the same things leading up to the 2018 draft in how he could be the engine of the offense. Gettleman said he could make everything around him better.
Now, the Giants are in a similar position. Eli was 37 at the time of 2018 draft and Jones is coming off an ACL and a neck injury with an out in his contract after 2024. The OL struggled last year and Jones on top of that does not handle the pressure well. He has a tendency to give up on plays to run or check down too quickly. What good will that be with Nabers?
I feel like WR is just going to go down the same path as 2018. College is producing a ton of WRs every year, often these guys are mid round draft picks. Look at Puka Nacua with the Rams (5th round pick).
Guys like Davante Adams and Stefon Diggs are getting traded. WRs generally get upset when they don't get targets, it would likely be worse if they aren't getting the targets because of a check down.
If QB isn't in the cards at 6, I hope NYG trades down and loads up on more draft capital. Bill Walsh always said WR is the last piece to fill for a contending team, it doesn't seem like the time is right for NYG. To me, it feels like a repeat of Barkley,
If you can tell me that WR can be combined with a trade up for McCarthy/Penix/Nix I can get on board with that, but it feels very unlikely.
Why am I wrong?
At this point, I'd prefer a slight trade down if possible and add more talent. I think we need more help all around.
Grab a QB, WR, Guard, CB, etc. We need it all.
I will dream of Sanders, Ward or Dart becoming a franchise QB for the Giants and coming in with a stellar supporting cast if we take Nabers, Benson and Jatavion Sanders in the first 3 rounds. Hypothetically, we would have a pretty nice situation for a rookie QB then.
Barkley - 94
Rosen - 89
Mayfield - 86
Darnold - 81
Jackson - 78
Allen - 78
2024
WRs - ? (I believe Sy has said there are at least two with 90+ grades)
Daniels - 87
Williams - 87
McCarthy - 84
Maye - 83
Nix - 80
Penix - 79
I think it is a very similar situation in the context of "don't pass on a blue chip weapon for a risk at QB". I also wouldn't expect Nabers or whomever to make much difference on this team - Hyatt is really fast too and they couldn't get him the ball.
College football is cranking out WRs. There will be other opportunities, likely even in this draft. Quarterbacks are not produced with this quality and quantity with similar frequency to WRs.
It is similar to 2018, and there's a risk of that continuing next year as an increasingly desperate QB situation forces a desperate move.
If the QB isn't to be had in two weeks, then it's onto the next phase of the QB search.
And of course in 2018 draft position was not an issue. They could have taken any quarterback they wanted except Kyler Murray. In hindsight, clearly the right picks were either Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. But there was no consensus on these guys at the time, except for GoTerps correctly pounding the table hard for Jackson. And yes, they probably should have taken Darnold over a RB in Barkley, but hindsight illustrates that this would have likely been an irrelevant choice given Darnold's severe under achievement in the NFL.
People need to understand there are no "directions" no "instruction manual" roster get built different ways.
Barkley was and is a great NFL talent. He's been productive. He has lived up to the hype even with the injuries. He was drafted high because he was highly likely to succeed. And that happened.
Maybe if the Giants drafted and signed better Olinemen, and maybe if Beckham's knee never explodes and maybe if the Giants knew how to build a defense things go differently here with Barkley.
Everyone loves to bullseye that pick as the end all be all. It was one pick and the guy made pro bowls. THAT was the problem? What if they drafted Rosen or Darnold? Or even Bradley Chubb who always seems hurt too.
I mean I get the regret of it all. And you would ideally like to have the OL in place already if drafting a RB that high. I just don't think drafting a ready made star is ever a bad idea. It's what they did after that pick that failed to back things up.
This is a good opportunity to add a talented QB prospect. If we don't we're going to be sitting here having the same conversations about it in January. And we've already heard from Sy that next year's class may be weaker at QB but still very strong at WR. So next year will we again make the case to draft the 90 WR over the 82 QB?
This is a good opportunity to add a talented QB prospect. If we don't we're going to be sitting here having the same conversations about it in January. And we've already heard from Sy that next year's class may be weaker at QB but still very strong at WR. So next year will we again make the case to draft the 90 WR over the 82 QB?
I agree with you. And I believe we will get a quality quarterback either by trading back up into the first round or earlier in the second round. The question for you is, who is the Lamar Jackson this year? Or the Will Levis? Or Prescott or Purdy? Who is the guy that falls in this draft who is the great value pick? That is the guy we want. That is the prize for superior scouting and sensible decision making. If it is Penix, I feel like we might be able to get him late in the first round with a trade up. A Nabers/Penix draft would be the ultimate win/win, no?
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Drafting a QB comes with risk - including when drafting one of the so called elite QBs (as we saw in 2018... Allen and Jackson were not considered elite prospects).
This is a good opportunity to add a talented QB prospect. If we don't we're going to be sitting here having the same conversations about it in January. And we've already heard from Sy that next year's class may be weaker at QB but still very strong at WR. So next year will we again make the case to draft the 90 WR over the 82 QB?
I agree with you. And I believe we will get a quality quarterback either by trading back up into the first round or earlier in the second round. The question for you is, who is the Lamar Jackson this year? Or the Will Levis? Or Prescott or Purdy? Who is the guy that falls in this draft who is the great value pick? That is the guy we want. That is the prize for superior scouting and sensible decision making. If it is Penix, I feel like we might be able to get him late in the first round with a trade up. A Nabers/Penix draft would be the ultimate win/win, no?
A Nabers/Penix draft would be a coup, and if Schoen makes that happen I will respect him immensely for it.
As for who is who, no one can say for sure. In my opinion the two most likely to bust are Maye and Williams. And Penix's medicals are something to quadruple check. I think the most talented are Williams/Daniels/Penix in any order, then the other 3.
If you're looking for certainty, I can't give that to you. It doesn't exist. The thing that is closest to certainty is that the Giants, presently, are nowhere at quarterback.
Barkley - 94
Rosen - 89
Mayfield - 86
Darnold - 81
Jackson - 78
Allen - 78
2024
WRs - ? (I believe Sy has said there are at least two with 90+ grades)
Daniels - 87
Williams - 87
McCarthy - 84
Maye - 83
Nix - 80
Penix - 79
I think it is a very similar situation in the context of "don't pass on a blue chip weapon for a risk at QB". I also wouldn't expect Nabers or whomever to make much difference on this team - Hyatt is really fast too and they couldn't get him the ball.
College football is cranking out WRs. There will be other opportunities, likely even in this draft. Quarterbacks are not produced with this quality and quantity with similar frequency to WRs.
It is similar to 2018, and there's a risk of that continuing next year as an increasingly desperate QB situation forces a desperate move.
Grades also need to be viewed in context. And compared to other years. JJ McCarthy may have an 84 but he will be the 8th highest graded QB from Sy, Drake Maye at #9 in 12 years ! Every other QB with a higher grade than them (with the exception of Rosen who fell for character and Daniels because he is in same draft as a high grade) went #1. Daniels is going 2 or 3.
There are 4 QBs this year that will be sitting with top 10 grades in last 12 years and we won’t go QB?
Simply put the only time a QB has highest grade on them as at 1 pick.
If the QB isn't to be had in two weeks, then it's onto the next phase of the QB search.
Schoen says, "you can't shop hungry." Giants are very hungry at the position, but at what price? Gotta hope their assessments of the QBs if/when one they like "very much" vs "well enough" is available are spot on.
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In comment 16463608 Go Terps said:
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Drafting a QB comes with risk - including when drafting one of the so called elite QBs (as we saw in 2018... Allen and Jackson were not considered elite prospects).
This is a good opportunity to add a talented QB prospect. If we don't we're going to be sitting here having the same conversations about it in January. And we've already heard from Sy that next year's class may be weaker at QB but still very strong at WR. So next year will we again make the case to draft the 90 WR over the 82 QB?
I agree with you. And I believe we will get a quality quarterback either by trading back up into the first round or earlier in the second round. The question for you is, who is the Lamar Jackson this year? Or the Will Levis? Or Prescott or Purdy? Who is the guy that falls in this draft who is the great value pick? That is the guy we want. That is the prize for superior scouting and sensible decision making. If it is Penix, I feel like we might be able to get him late in the first round with a trade up. A Nabers/Penix draft would be the ultimate win/win, no?
A Nabers/Penix draft would be a coup, and if Schoen makes that happen I will respect him immensely for it.
As for who is who, no one can say for sure. In my opinion the two most likely to bust are Maye and Williams. And Penix's medicals are something to quadruple check. I think the most talented are Williams/Daniels/Penix in any order, then the other 3.
If you're looking for certainty, I can't give that to you. It doesn't exist. The thing that is closest to certainty is that the Giants, presently, are nowhere at quarterback.
This is possible if Minnesota trades up for Maye and Penix makes it past pick 16 then I think he could be had for pick 47 and a 2025 2nd or so via trade up into the 20s.
Now, if Schoen views one of these guys (likely Maye), as a guy with the upside to lead this team out of the wilderness, then move heaven and earth to get this guy.
If he has to trade future #1s, so be it. Until they get the right QB in here, they are just treading water, accumulating talent that may not mesh together.
You build AROUND the QB, based on his strengths, weaknesses and scheme you want to run. Until you have that guy, you don't know what kind of WR you need.
Get the QB!!!
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...
If the QB isn't to be had in two weeks, then it's onto the next phase of the QB search.
Schoen says, "you can't shop hungry." Giants are very hungry at the position, but at what price? Gotta hope their assessments of the QBs if/when one they like "very much" vs "well enough" is available are spot on.
The reason they're hungry is they never go shopping.
Are they going to be less hungry next year?
Are they going to be less hungry next year?
Terps, my point is that Schoen can't "settle" on a subpar QB sheerly for the sake of filling the position if he does not warrant the pick, wherever that pick comes. Otherwise team is simply adding to QB Hell. Their scouting has to get it mostly right. Otherwise this is Gettleman redux.
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...The reason they're hungry is they never go shopping.
Are they going to be less hungry next year?
Terps, my point is that Schoen can't "settle" on a subpar QB sheerly for the sake of filling the position if he does not warrant the pick, wherever that pick comes. Otherwise team is simply adding to QB Hell. Their scouting has to get it mostly right. Otherwise this is Gettleman redux.
But then when is it appropriate to draft a quarterback? Do we have to wait until the Giants have the number one pick AND the top player is a quarterback?
Drafting QBs, as we've seen, is an inexact science. But you have to have a good quarterback to win, so what's the answer?
You take as many swings as you can. The Giants haven't taken swings. They are sitting and hoping that a bad quarterback becomes good.
THAT is quarterback hell.
WR1 is a premium position - especially in the pass happy, modern day NFL. RB is a positioned that has been devalued - especially the true “workhorse” RB
This year, they’d be lucky to get the 4th best QB without tradeup. 2018 they were guaranteed the best QB on the board outside of Mayfield - who arguably was not QB1 in most boards.
2018 they had offers to move down. 2024 they would need to offer multiple 1sts to even move up…
So there is 0 comparison here.
So, no I do not trust Joe Schoen. And for those who do, the price that will be paid for Joe Schoen making the wrong pick at quarterback is his job. He will then skate out of here with zero accountability from that point forward, leaving a trail of crap like his predecessor did for the fans to be burdened with for a decade. Forgive me if I do not find any comfort in "holding Joe Schoen accountable" for making the wrong pick. It is an utterly pointless paradigm. I would rather he just make sensible choices based on value and best player available in accordance with how the draft unfolds, rather than reaching for players he "loves" at positions of need...
Although I completely disagree with this approach, I get why Daboll would want Nabers if he's desparate to win. 90 percent of the offense could basically be "find Nabers in space," and if Jones fails to do so, just throw Lock in. Meanwhile, as we all saw, it it takes is your center or guard getting beat and getting a four-yard loss to kill a drive with Barkley.
However, I do see what you're saying in that the talk around MHJr, Nabers, and Odunze is getting perilously close to that "gold jacket' stuff we heard around Barkley. That's very presumptous, and mostly irrelevant to team success unless you have an actual plan to build an offensive structure that can take advantage of the guy.
If the Giants take a WR, they have to show they have an actual plan to build a top-level passing attack around what will be an actually good and young WR core. All in on 2025 draft class? Fine. Sign Goff or Dak? Fine. Trade for Hooker fine? I don't love these options, but at least these are plans.
Hoping for Jones to turn into an above-average passer is not a plan. He hasn't shown it in any advanced data (his good performance in 2022 was based on running), and he's coming off an ACL. If Schoen/Daboll are thinking like Dottino or Papa on this, they'll be gone.
Why would giving contracts to two of the best players at their respective position possibly make Schoen worse than Gettleman?
In 2023 the following wide receivers were on teams that were in the bottom 10 in the league in scoring:
Garrett Wilson
Drake London
Terry McClaurin
Davante Adams
Justin Jefferson
What did their teams all have in common in 2023?
And some of those WRs are dominant WR1.
Texans
Seahawks
Bears
Are going to turn the corner. Cardinals will have a quick turn around as well if they play it right.
When you are this bad, trade down and get assets that become more valuable. Build the nucleus from the lines out then use those accumulated picks to score your skilled positions.
That is how I would build it.
As much as I like Brian Burns and think he is a great player. This roster wasn’t ready for that kind of move. Cart before horse. But again fun to have him, just not how I would go about it.
How is drafting a QB at 6 different than 2019?
And some of those WRs are dominant WR1.
Arent*
How is drafting a QB at 6 different than 2019?
These six quarterbacks are all more talented and we're more productive than Jones was, by qiote a bit.
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instead of how is drafting a WR at 6 different than 2018 why not ask:
How is drafting a QB at 6 different than 2019?
These six quarterbacks are all more talented and we're more productive than Jones was, by qiote a bit.
Ehhh. Maybe, but probably not. Chances are that there are at least 1 or 2 bigger busts than Jones in the six, anyone’s guess who they are. Rookie qbs are always a roll of the dice. No one knows how to pick them, except maybe the packers.
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instead of how is drafting a WR at 6 different than 2018 why not ask:
How is drafting a QB at 6 different than 2019?
These six quarterbacks are all more talented and we're more productive than Jones was, by qiote a bit.
so, what does that mean? are you saying if the Giants take a QB at 6 you know what the outcome will be?
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...The reason they're hungry is they never go shopping.
Are they going to be less hungry next year?
Terps, my point is that Schoen can't "settle" on a subpar QB sheerly for the sake of filling the position if he does not warrant the pick, wherever that pick comes. Otherwise team is simply adding to QB Hell. Their scouting has to get it mostly right. Otherwise this is Gettleman redux.
There are 5 QBs in this draft that by most metrics, including Sy's, that are above par.
Perception is the only reason that JJ and Penix are not top 10 picks.
Schoen made his bed by franchising Barkley, extending Jones, and not dealing Barkley resulting in a worse draft pick and fewer draft picks.
Now, he seems too chicken to inexcusably move up, allowing the Vikings all the way back at #11 to jump which could result in no QB but yet again another splashy toy who will be a bust since he has no QB but will suceed in getting the Giants a few more wins to continue QB hell.
Oh and let me tell you as I said on another thread, this guy will be Thomas Lewis II. Having Dave Brown as the QB, and worse, the fans will blame this guy and use him as their scape goat for the poor QB play. He is going to get booed every missed pass.
Schoen needs to eat his medicine. He fucked up with Barkley, now trade up, get a QB, even if it means another 6 win season. Don't fuck us fans over for your own self-interest ass covering and get a WR who will get us to 8-9.
WR1 is a premium position - especially in the pass happy, modern day NFL. RB is a positioned that has been devalued - especially the true “workhorse” RB
This year, they’d be lucky to get the 4th best QB without tradeup. 2018 they were guaranteed the best QB on the board outside of Mayfield - who arguably was not QB1 in most boards.
2018 they had offers to move down. 2024 they would need to offer multiple 1sts to even move up…
So there is 0 comparison here.
+1
I don’t see the comparison.
People keep acting like taking a wr at 6 will mean actively passing on a qb but they may all be gone by the time we pick at 6. At 6 getting a qb they believe in may be impossible.
All of the public emphasis in this draft is on three or four quarterbacks and three receivers. But there are some GM’s who are privately savoring the opportunity to pick the best offensive lineman and the best defensive player at any position. They are not tipping their hands.
Here is the rub, probably the top 3 WRs will be better players than 3 of those 6 QBs taken.
Williams and Daniels will be gone long before the Giants draft. Maye will likely be gone too. I think McCarthy will be there at #6 (Giants will not trade up at some ridiculous cost as they only have 6 picks this year and 7 next). I do not think Nix is in the mix for the Giants.
So it likely comes down to McCarthy and Penix. I don't have a problem with either. Penix may fall to the 2nd round because of the medicals(clean or otherwise), but I could see some team like LV taking him in round 1.
FWIW, I do not see McCarthy playing this year if the Giants draft him(Neither do I see Maye playing this year).
The draft is for accumulating talent. I do not think the Giants can pass over 90+ rated talent if it falls to them. I also do not think they can give up multiple high draft picks over a couple years to move up for a QB.
If Schoen has a firm belief in Penix and McCarthy is already gone(IMHO McCarthy will be a project to get to NFL level) I would take him at #6 and take the best WR at 47. Or, in truth, take the best OL at 47 and continue to build the line.
I will give the devil his due, and Terps is right that Schoen and Daboll better have a real plan to build this team and stick with it.
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In comment 16464020 pjcas18 said:
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instead of how is drafting a WR at 6 different than 2018 why not ask:
How is drafting a QB at 6 different than 2019?
These six quarterbacks are all more talented and we're more productive than Jones was, by qiote a bit.
so, what does that mean? are you saying if the Giants take a QB at 6 you know what the outcome will be?
I do not know what the outcome will be. The difference is that Jones was a colossal overdraft, and these players would not be based on their talent and resume.