Let me preface this by saying if the Giants can come away with the QB they want at #6 (or via trade up in the first round) then obviously this is off the table. But if moving up is not possible and there is not a QB they like at #6, take the best WR left and then address QB later.
I think Penix and Nix will be gone when #47 comes, and a trade up back into Round 1 will be too costly. Why not use #47 and #70 to address needs elsewhere such as CB, DT, OL and then get a developmental guy in the 4th where the impact of missing is not particularly severe.
Milton has a world of physical talent, but will need time to grow into the job. Give him a year working with Daboll, Kafka and Tierney who should be able to both (a) get the most out of him; and (b) realistically evaluate after the first year if he has the potential to be the guy. If you are not loving what you see, the 4th round investment is not preventing you from going QB anywhere in the 2025 draft.
Daboll is here largely for what he did with another physical talent who was seen as raw and needed development. I would love to give him another shot this year to see what he can make of Milton.
Tl:dr - This is what Sy suggested as a possibility at the end of his write up for Milton.
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That we are not in position to take a chance on a “developmental” pick - especially one who hasn’t shown anything close to being a good college QB, yet alone an NFL QB.
We need a QB now. Not developing one who may be ready when’s he’s like 27 years old.
So when Schoen says they are probably adding a QB, you think he means first round or next year? You can’t pick a QB in any round but round 1?
Outside of Williams I don’t think there is a QB in this draft that is not a developmental prospect. I guess we can wait until 2025 and hope for the best!
Yeah there are some QBs in this draft that were actually good in college. Milton was not. Kind of a point you can’t seem to grasp.
Any other position taken in 5th round = surefire starter
Some posters do not understand what the draft is at all. First round QBs are all busts, OL taken in any round will be at least solid starters. Guys who played for my favorite college team are super awesome.
2013: Ryan Nassib
2014: Andre Williams
2015: None
2016: BJ Goodson
2017: Wayne Gallman
2018: Kyle Lauletta
2019: Julian Love
2020: Darnay Holmes
2021: Elerson Smith
2022: Daniel Bellinger
2023: None
Aside from Love and maybe Bellinger, a greater list of JAGs may never have been seen in the western world. So the fourth round is precisely where you would want to take some risk on a guy like Milton.
Shows the ineptness of our GMs. Should we list all the players drafted in rounds 4-5 who are pro bowlers and all pros drafted by other teams?
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QB taken in 5th round = wasted developmental pick
Any other position taken in 5th round = surefire starter
Some posters do not understand what the draft is at all. First round QBs are all busts, OL taken in any round will be at least solid starters. Guys who played for my favorite college team are super awesome.
And guys who played for your teams rival suck - right?
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2012: Adrien Robinson
2013: Ryan Nassib
2014: Andre Williams
2015: None
2016: BJ Goodson
2017: Wayne Gallman
2018: Kyle Lauletta
2019: Julian Love
2020: Darnay Holmes
2021: Elerson Smith
2022: Daniel Bellinger
2023: None
Aside from Love and maybe Bellinger, a greater list of JAGs may never have been seen in the western world. So the fourth round is precisely where you would want to take some risk on a guy like Milton.
Shows the ineptness of our GMs. Should we list all the players drafted in rounds 4-5 who are pro bowlers and all pros drafted by other teams?
I'd bet as a percentage it's in the single digits league wide.
He played in a simplified offense in college and was never asked to do much. He didn’t learn a lot. Is that because he can’t learn a lot, or he was not asked to do it? That is for Schoen and Daboll to decide. I have no idea because I have never met the guy and never talked to any coach who has worked with him.
A lot of you seem very sure that he is some sort of finished product that has hit his ceiling in college. That is certainly not what I took from reading Sy’s write up.
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In comment 16468186 JT039 said:
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That we are not in position to take a chance on a “developmental” pick - especially one who hasn’t shown anything close to being a good college QB, yet alone an NFL QB.
We need a QB now. Not developing one who may be ready when’s he’s like 27 years old.
So when Schoen says they are probably adding a QB, you think he means first round or next year? You can’t pick a QB in any round but round 1?
Outside of Williams I don’t think there is a QB in this draft that is not a developmental prospect. I guess we can wait until 2025 and hope for the best!
Yeah there are some QBs in this draft that were actually good in college. Milton was not. Kind of a point you can’t seem to grasp.
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
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In comment 16468190 Go Terps said:
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QB taken in 5th round = wasted developmental pick
Any other position taken in 5th round = surefire starter
Some posters do not understand what the draft is at all. First round QBs are all busts, OL taken in any round will be at least solid starters. Guys who played for my favorite college team are super awesome.
And guys who played for your teams rival suck - right?
I went to Arizona and my team’s rival is Arizona State. I used to live in Ohio, and I hated the Buckeyes and rooted for Michigan to beat them every year. And Daniels played at ASU and I would love for the Giants to draft him.
So…no.
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
None. I want one at 6 or sooner. It’s time to stop fucking around with the position. Choosing a developmental guy and rolling with Locke and a rookie just means more meaningless Giants football for at least two years.
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In comment 16468193 The Mike said:
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2012: Adrien Robinson
2013: Ryan Nassib
2014: Andre Williams
2015: None
2016: BJ Goodson
2017: Wayne Gallman
2018: Kyle Lauletta
2019: Julian Love
2020: Darnay Holmes
2021: Elerson Smith
2022: Daniel Bellinger
2023: None
Aside from Love and maybe Bellinger, a greater list of JAGs may never have been seen in the western world. So the fourth round is precisely where you would want to take some risk on a guy like Milton.
Shows the ineptness of our GMs. Should we list all the players drafted in rounds 4-5 who are pro bowlers and all pros drafted by other teams?
I'd bet as a percentage it's in the single digits league wide.
The only number I could find anywhere after a cursory search was 16%, which sounds about right. I said less than 20% in my OP as I have no idea if that is right, but I would guess if it is higher than that, it is not by much.
Most guys you draft in the 4th round are not ever going to develop into productive NFL starters. Some do, but the overwhelming majority don’t.
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In comment 16468194 JT039 said:
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
None. I want one at 6 or sooner. It’s time to stop fucking around with the position. Choosing a developmental guy and rolling with Locke and a rookie just means more meaningless Giants football for at least two years.
Great idea. Make another team trade us their pick or overdraft a guy with plenty of warts at #6. Solid strategy.
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In comment 16468209 RomanWH said:
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In comment 16468194 JT039 said:
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
None. I want one at 6 or sooner. It’s time to stop fucking around with the position. Choosing a developmental guy and rolling with Locke and a rookie just means more meaningless Giants football for at least two years.
Great idea. Make another team trade us their pick or overdraft a guy with plenty of warts at #6. Solid strategy.
Better than putting a bet on a guy who has never been good.
Lock and Milton is the giants future!!!
Weaknesses
Disturbing lack of placement and timing as a deep-ball passer.
Completed just 38.6 percent of his throws beyond 10 yards (per Pro Football Focus) in 2023.
Struggles with anticipatory throws, running receivers into collisions.
Telegraphs throws between the hashes, giving safeties an easy jump on the ball.
Desires to throw the ball through receivers rather than deliver with touch.
Inconsistent tying his feet to eyes and squaring to his targets.
Frequently forces moving targets to break stride to try to make the catch.
Scoring report on Milton that needs to be re-read. This is what we need!
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In comment 16468194 JT039 said:
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
None. I want one at 6 or sooner. It’s time to stop fucking around with the position. Choosing a developmental guy and rolling with Locke and a rookie just means more meaningless Giants football for at least two years.
Hey, I'm all about not wanting to waste years watching meaningless football. I'm sure everyone on this site would be in favor of that. But if your stance is I only want the top mocked guys, fine. Enjoy your position. But just know that the front office might only really like 1 or 2 of the top guys. And there's a strong chance they won't have the opportunity to trade up to get one. At which point if their grades don't justify the selection of the next tier of QBs at #6, it's highly likely they will pass. Doing otherwise is how we got stuck w/ Jones in the first place.
The talk of Milton, Rattler, Pratt, etc. in the later rounds is in case plan A(trading) & B(hoping their guy falls to #6) don't go their way. Gotta have a backup plan and I don't mean Drew Lock and Tommy Devito.
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In comment 16468194 JT039 said:
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
None. I want one at 6 or sooner. It’s time to stop fucking around with the position. Choosing a developmental guy and rolling with Locke and a rookie just means more meaningless Giants football for at least two years.
You may want one at six or sooner, but is that the QB that JS and BD want going to be available? Do you want to take a quarterback in the first round just for the sake of taking a quarterback in the first round? That’s how we ended up with Daniel Jones with inept scouting and decision making.
Any other position taken in 5th round = surefire starter
Wasn’t Tom Brady a 6th round pick? I wouldn’t call him a wasted pick
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In comment 16468209 RomanWH said:
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In comment 16468194 JT039 said:
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
None. I want one at 6 or sooner. It’s time to stop fucking around with the position. Choosing a developmental guy and rolling with Locke and a rookie just means more meaningless Giants football for at least two years.
You may want one at six or sooner, but is that the QB that JS and BD want going to be available? Do you want to take a quarterback in the first round just for the sake of taking a quarterback in the first round? That’s how we ended up with Daniel Jones with inept scouting and decision making.
All 4 of these QBs projected to go in top half of the first round are pretty highly regarded, and had a lot of success in college.
You have to take a chance sooner or later on a guy. Hoping to hit a home run in the fourth round is most likely just a wasted pick.
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QB taken in 5th round = wasted developmental pick
Any other position taken in 5th round = surefire starter
Wasn’t Tom Brady a 6th round pick? I wouldn’t call him a wasted pick
Go Terps said this sarcastically. It was implied that taking Milton in the 5th would be a waste of a pick but taking anyone else with the same pick would "fill a hole" insinuating that they would be a surefire starter.
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In comment 16468211 JT039 said:
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In comment 16468209 RomanWH said:
Quote:
In comment 16468194 JT039 said:
Name the mid/late round QB prospects that you'd advocate us drafting.
None. I want one at 6 or sooner. It’s time to stop fucking around with the position. Choosing a developmental guy and rolling with Locke and a rookie just means more meaningless Giants football for at least two years.
You may want one at six or sooner, but is that the QB that JS and BD want going to be available? Do you want to take a quarterback in the first round just for the sake of taking a quarterback in the first round? That’s how we ended up with Daniel Jones with inept scouting and decision making.
All 4 of these QBs projected to go in top half of the first round are pretty highly regarded, and had a lot of success in college.
You have to take a chance sooner or later on a guy. Hoping to hit a home run in the fourth round is most likely just a wasted pick.
You're hoping to hit a homerun no matter what the round. There's no guarantee of success regardless of how successful they were in college. Guys bust all the time. Rosen, Darnold, Lance, Fields, etc.
Also, guys like JJM weren't asked to do much. A lot of his draft value comes from a projection based scouting report. How well do you think his skills will translate because he was rarely asked to throw more than 30 times/game in college. Sometimes that might work depending on the situation they get drafted into. Anthony Richardson put up mediocre stats in his final year at Florida. His draft value was also projection based.
It's easier to stomach missing on HR swing & miss in the middle rounds than taking a guy with a top 10 pick and trying year after year to make it work(sound familiar?).
Milton is probably worse than Devito.
I'm a physical attributes guy but Milton has been struggling to throw accurate passes for a long time. He's like a basketball player who can't shoot.
Pratt has a nice combination of passer and runner to develop into an NFL dual threat.
Definitely? No. Because no one knows what Milton is definitely going to be in the NFL yet. Same could be asked of any of the top projected guys. Are CW, Daniels, Maye, JJM, Nix, Penix definitely better than Jones/Lock right now? Nobody can make that assertion because as we have discussed before, guys bust all the time. Dwayne Haskins, Zach Wilson, JaMarcus Russell, etc. The list goes on and on.
Care to name some late round lottery ticket options at QB?
Weaknesses
Disturbing lack of placement and timing as a deep-ball passer.
Completed just 38.6 percent of his throws beyond 10 yards (per Pro Football Focus) in 2023.
Struggles with anticipatory throws, running receivers into collisions.
Telegraphs throws between the hashes, giving safeties an easy jump on the ball.
Desires to throw the ball through receivers rather than deliver with touch.
Inconsistent tying his feet to eyes and squaring to his targets.
Frequently forces moving targets to break stride to try to make the catch.
I wonder how many mid round physical freak QBs like this have worked out in the history of the NFL. A lot of the ppl who like this idea are the same ones who'd remind us top 10 QBs can bust (like it's the same or even less likely with a 4th rounder)
But, just for the hypothetical...I wouldn't be interested in Milton unless it was a 6th round pick or later, and even then maybe not. I get the huge arm and prototype body, but he is inaccurate.
Nothing else matters if you are inaccurate. And say you can fix that...you still have a problem with reading defenses/decision-making and going through progressions.
So I'd be out on Milton until 6th round earliest. There will be good players in the 4th, particularly at RB. But at other positions too, such as Edge. Really interesting edge guys that should be taken in that range.
But, just for the hypothetical...I wouldn't be interested in Milton unless it was a 6th round pick or later, and even then maybe not. I get the huge arm and prototype body, but he is inaccurate.
Nothing else matters if you are inaccurate. And say you can fix that...you still have a problem with reading defenses/decision-making and going through progressions.
So I'd be out on Milton until 6th round earliest. There will be good players in the 4th, particularly at RB. But at other positions too, such as Edge. Really interesting edge guys that should be taken in that range.
Agreed, no taking fliers on guys until rd 6 or 7. We could get Jalen Wright in rd 4 and Mohamed Kamara in rd 5 for instance, guys that have a good chance at being real contributors.
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Ringing endorsement here….
Weaknesses
Disturbing lack of placement and timing as a deep-ball passer.
Completed just 38.6 percent of his throws beyond 10 yards (per Pro Football Focus) in 2023.
Struggles with anticipatory throws, running receivers into collisions.
Telegraphs throws between the hashes, giving safeties an easy jump on the ball.
Desires to throw the ball through receivers rather than deliver with touch.
Inconsistent tying his feet to eyes and squaring to his targets.
Frequently forces moving targets to break stride to try to make the catch.
I wonder how many mid round physical freak QBs like this have worked out in the history of the NFL. A lot of the ppl who like this idea are the same ones who'd remind us top 10 QBs can bust (like it's the same or even less likely with a 4th rounder)
Mid round freaks? No, but here's a write up on one strong armed QB prospect who went higher than some people thought he would:
From Sy:
"Strong Points:
-Has a cannon for an arm, rare power that comes easy
-Has the ideal frame for the position, can take hits and keep moving, tough to bring down
-Excellent downfield passer on the move
Weak Points:
-Struggles to consistently put the ball where he needs to
-Doesn’t have the proper touch on throws between layers
-Played his worst football against his toughest competition, by far
_______ has a long ways to go and lacks a lot of passer-traits that are essential to consistent QB success in the NFL. When the first, second, and third things people say about _______ all have to do with how far he can throw the ball, or how much velocity he can put on it, it is an immediate red flag to me. He has failed to show the ability to put touch on the ball up the seam between levels of the defense. He doesn’t look comfortable in the pocket either. His footwork is very sloppy and it causes a lot of erratic throws on what should be simple gains. I also didn’t like how he carried himself during games where he struggled. Just didn’t scream “leader” to me."
That was Sy's writeup for Buf QB Josh Allen whom he gave a 78 grade back in the 2018 draft class. Anyone remember who their OC was back in 2018? That's right, Davoli. Oh and offensive assistant back in 2018? Shea Tierney.
Now am I saying that Milton will turn out to be Josh Allen 2.0? No. Emphatically no. The odds aren't in his favor. All I'm saying if there's a chance Dabs can make Milton into Great Values brand version of Josh Allen for a 4th or 5th rounder, why not consider it?
What happened to just evaluating just the player and not being afraid to accept the reality he might suck?
I have no illusion that Milton is anything aside from a project, and one likely not to work out. Most guys picked in the 4th round, including RBs, are likely not going to ever be anything more than a a guy lining up on specials. In my opinion, it is the right time to take a chance on a guy with all of the physical traits you could want, but needs a lot of coaching.
Understand completely some guys not liking him at all and therefore not being on board. But I feel like based on some of the last few posts, some read this as “Milton may be our future.” He is simply a low cost gamble if better options in the first are not available.
He is Cardale Jones.
There’s are more than a handful of successful mid round QBs currently starting in the NFL - taking one is absolutely not a waste. Theres no guarantee that a position player will be good either, the hit rate across the board is low.
He is Cardale Jones.
That might be true but I was watching highlights of him throwing at the combine and oh my god does this guy have a cannon arm he was throwing these 70 yard rainbow passes almost hitting the rafters just showing off
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...he's a mediocre college QB with a good arm.
He is Cardale Jones.
That might be true but I was watching highlights of him throwing at the combine and oh my god does this guy have a cannon arm he was throwing these 70 yard rainbow passes almost hitting the rafters just showing off
He does have a huge, absolute cannon of an arm. He also has prototypical size and some athleticism. But everything else that factors into being a good QB is not only a negative, it's a huge negative.
Jamarcus Russell also had one of the biggest arms ever. Here I am, a guy who touted Josh Allen in the draft, and yes, at the time, noted the arm talent. But Allen had really weak receivers, almost high school level, where he was putting the ball on them, I mean, high-level throws, and they couldn't catch a cold. Factor in the bad weather games he was playing in Wyoming, and I felt that his completion % normalized for weather and his receivers, plus a really terrible OL, would've been in the 65% range. I felt really comfortable with Allen as a passer. Milton I do not.
It is a nice-to-have trait for a QB to have amazing arm strength. More important, by a factor of at least 3x, is decision-making, pocket awareness, and accuracy.
You give me the above traits at a plus level, I'll take a guy with mediocre arm strength. I believe JJM has all these traits and a plus arm. Not plus plus like Williams, Maye, and Milton, but plus... better than average. But Milton is a big-armed athlete attempting to play some version of QB. Other guys might have short-comings athletically, physically, and in the arm-talent area that Milton doesn't suffer from, but they are actual QBs that can play the position.
Even though I respect the idea of taking a guy who is (very) raw but has the physical attributes that you dream of, and can try to work with him and make him something...a guy like Milton, even if it works out, is so far behind the curve, probably 2+ years, and that's only if you're lucky and something clicks...you don't have that kind of time. If we don't take a QB this year, or say we do but it's Milton in the 4th as suggested, we're still moving heaven and earth next year to get a franchise QB at the top of the draft.
And now is advocating for a QB who literally was a below average QB in college.
The irony is quite amazing.
And now is advocating for a QB who literally was a below average QB in college.
The irony is quite amazing.
Yeah I probably ruined a bunch of great BBI threads about Jones by pointing out that he isn’t good at all.
Bye, dep!