A comment on here from “Eric on Li” got me thinking . . . he thought Acorsi came off smelling like roses post SB42. After the 2007 Thanksgiving week home loss (ass-kicking) by Minn., Eli was looking mediocre, soft rumblings of Coughlin getting the boot, and Acorsi’s legacy was debatable at best even with the SB35 trip. I was curious about this: which GM contributed to the SB42 & SB46 more from a draft perspective? I think it’s fair to say Acorsi had more FA player input to those titles (some of that is timing/cap availability).
Main Conclusion . . . it’s close from a true draft pick success rate, but a key point is this: Acorsi had more draft success late in his tenure (2003-2006), while Reese had much more success early (2007 & 2008). Combining these efforts produced 5 or 6 years of good talent input to the team. This is a big reason for that 5 year run (with 2008 team being the big disappointment). Acorsi contributed a bit more, but in Reese’s favor is this: he was Acorsi’s right hand man, so he was heavily involved in all of those seasons as well.
How I evaluated: I had to make judgments on what is a successful pick. My main criterion was how much did a player see the field and remain on the team, and what round was he selected. A 1st rounder better contribute and start a significant amount, while a 6th rounder obviously not as much. Here’s an example: was CB Will Peterson (2006 2nd rounder) a successful pick? I said yes – this was the 1st or 2nd round pick that was the most “on the fence” for me along with Rueben Randle, but I gave them both the nod. Overall better drafter? Acorsi’s success in the later rounds easily pushes him over the top.
I separated the drafts into 3 sections: rounds 1-2, rounds 3-4, and rounds 5-7. Reese (11 years as GM) was better in rounds 1-2, but Acorsi (9 years as GM) definitely gets the nod for the later rounds. Some of my evaluations might be suspect, so shout out picks you think I slighted or over-valued (that is what BBI is all about). Once again, successful pick means playing/starting/remaining-on-team a decent amount of games/seasons compared to the round selected.
Rounds 1-2 success rate: Reese 78% Acorsi 65% (Reese busts: Clint Sintim, Marvin Austin, David Wilson, Flowers, Apple . . . Acorsi busts: Joe Jurevicius, Joe Montgomery, Dayne, Tim Carter, William Joseph, Sinorice Moss)
Rounds 3-4 success rate: Reese 13% Acorsi 35% (Reese hits: DeOssie, Manningham, BJ Goodson . . . Acorsi hits: Dan Campbell, Brandon Short, Reggie Torbor, Tuck, Jacobs, Cofield)
Rounds 5-7 success rate: Reese 13% Acorsi 23% (Reese hits: Boss, Bradshaw, Jacquian Williams, Devon Kennard . . .Acorsi hits: Mike Rosenthal, Ralph Brown, Dhani Jones, Nick Greisen, David Diehl, Gibril Wilson, David Tyree)
Acorsi best draft: 2004 or 2005 it’s debatable
Reese best draft: most likely 2007
Obvious things I noticed about Acorsi: sucked at picking WRs, and had a rough go early with RBs but recovered a bit later on with Jacobs.
Reese had his issues too: had a thing for DBs (most popular position for him), like to draft high school legends (big 5 star recruits) that came back to earth in college and were JAGs or worse in the NFL (Jay Alford, Marvin Austin & Rueben Randle, others?). Reese did the team no favors in the later rounds from 2008 and beyond – it’s frightening, and the results showed on the field.
No secret here: neither of them liked drafting LBs high (only time was Clint Sintim)
I would go with Reese. Despite some major misses.
This. Reese was the better drafter IMO. Accorsi’s best drafts were run by Reese. His drafts were pretty poor for a few years except for a few hits on D (Griffin, the Wills) and Shockey, for the most part.
I really believe Reese’s drafts started to go downhill when he elevated Marc Ross. Hard to know for sure but seems like Ross played the role Reese used to and failed miserably at it, dragging Reese down with him.
Jerry Reese was a very good personnel man, but his biggest failure was hiring Marc Ross.
You get that right and you win. You get that wrong and you lose.
Yes he was. Why Jerry Reese became complacent and put his trust in Ross will always baffle me. A real hack with a huge ego.
Agree with this. Ross was over his head.
The 2007 draft was one of the best in NYG history. That draft was full of instant contributors which all helped win a Super Bowl.
From 2007 to 2011, guys like JPP, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham were brought in which were crucial contributors to get another Super Bowl,
People often overlook the bad injury luck Reese had:
-Kenny Phillips
-Terrell Thomas
-David Wilson
-Hakeem Nicks (injury cut career short)
-Victor Cruz (injury cut career short)
When things began to deteriorate, NYG was picking later in the draft. 2012 being a prime example - it's a lot harder to hit on the draft when you're picking low. Just look at SF's recent drafts. This is why it's so comical when Gettleman is propped up here, Gettleman had nothing but top picks and still couldn't get the trains back on the track.
Not to mention Reese ran Accorsi's drafts. So yes, I do defend Reese often here because he's treated like shit by many here. Still wondering why he isn't in the Ring of Honor.
But, I wonder now if Schoen(or any GM) is able to dig out of the hole that Reese/Ross created. I look at this position that they are in and cannot see with limited draft picks and no QB how they will ever get out of the cellar.
But, I wonder now if Schoen(or any GM) is able to dig out of the hole that Reese/Ross created. I look at this position that they are in and cannot see with limited draft picks and no QB how they will ever get out of the cellar.
Here's an example. "The hole that Reese/Ross created." Huh?
Gettleman is the reason for this mess.
The 2007 draft was one of the best in NYG history. That draft was full of instant contributors which all helped win a Super Bowl.
From 2007 to 2011, guys like JPP, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham were brought in which were crucial contributors to get another Super Bowl,
People often overlook the bad injury luck Reese had:
-Kenny Phillips
-Terrell Thomas
-David Wilson
-Hakeem Nicks (injury cut career short)
-Victor Cruz (injury cut career short)
When things began to deteriorate, NYG was picking later in the draft. 2012 being a prime example - it's a lot harder to hit on the draft when you're picking low. Just look at SF's recent drafts. This is why it's so comical when Gettleman is propped up here, Gettleman had nothing but top picks and still couldn't get the trains back on the track.
Not to mention Reese ran Accorsi's drafts. So yes, I do defend Reese often here because he's treated like shit by many here. Still wondering why he isn't in the Ring of Honor.
No one on this thread is talking about gettleman. The question is in regards to Accorsi and Reese. Reese was a great personnel guy and for the first few years he worked well with gettleman. The shortcoming of Reese was hiring Marc Ross and promoting him. The JPP of tight ends and basketball on grass.
Part of a great head coach is the staff he hires. Offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator and special teams coordinator. Part of a great GM is the staff he hires. Are you going to give credit for good draft picks to Cowden, Brandon Brown or Rosetti and not credit schoen? Defend Reese all you want, he did great as GM his first few years and nailed a few drafts, but his drafts were miserable in the latter years. Injuries or not, where he was picking in the draft order, those are the facts.
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drafter, but it sure seemed the Giants had better players under Accorsi than Reese. And yes Marc Ross was a disaster for the Giants, perhaps worse than DG.
But, I wonder now if Schoen(or any GM) is able to dig out of the hole that Reese/Ross created. I look at this position that they are in and cannot see with limited draft picks and no QB how they will ever get out of the cellar.
Here's an example. "The hole that Reese/Ross created." Huh?
Gettleman is the reason for this mess.
Reese and Ross left us with a completely depleted roster. Gettleman did not help, he made some improvements, but it all started with an extreme lack of talent everywhere from Reese and Ross.
Ross was hired in 2006 and promoted twice by Reese.
The fact that Reese has had very little interest from franchises after he was fired speaks volumes.
He was over rated and should have been gone well before Coughlin. Ruined the the last 6-7 years of Eli's career. FA selections also went down when Dave left. It wasn't until 2020 that the Giants drafted another AP/PB OL since Snee (2004).
"In Reese we destruct" over time.
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drafter, but it sure seemed the Giants had better players under Accorsi than Reese. And yes Marc Ross was a disaster for the Giants, perhaps worse than DG.
But, I wonder now if Schoen(or any GM) is able to dig out of the hole that Reese/Ross created. I look at this position that they are in and cannot see with limited draft picks and no QB how they will ever get out of the cellar.
Here's an example. "The hole that Reese/Ross created." Huh?
Gettleman is the reason for this mess.
No, he was a continuation of the mess. By 2013 the Giants sucked. I could argue to 2013/14 were worse teams than now.
Believe what you want to believe, but Reese and Ross weren't fired because they were doing well - it was a complete collapse under them - DG just compounded it.
The first half of his tenure - you could argue he was the best GM in the league. 2 SB titles. Finding franchise players all over the place.
Then boom! It just spiraled out of control starting around 2013 for the rest of his career.
However - he is responsible for 2 SB wins and that should never ever be forgotten.
Might be time for Schoen to do the same thing this year.
Pretty sizeable drop off to both Reese and Dave.
Reese inherited his HC, QB and entire OL. Most of the Giants issues have been rooted in those three things.
Might be time for Schoen to do the same thing this year.
I completely agree. If Daniels slips by DC, I don't think any price is too high to pay to NE.
I see this a lot and I have a hard time thinking it is a fair point of view. GM's of course rely on others for the draft, no one is going to do it themselves. If we are going to attribute draft results to others besides the GM, then shouldn't we also need to know how much the coach or owners were responsible for players that were picked?
Either a GM is responsible for the drafts, or we should consider who else should receive credit or criticism for the drafts.
Pretty sizeable drop off to both Reese and Dave.
Reese inherited his HC, QB and entire OL. Most of the Giants issues have been rooted in those three things.
You're going to squawk about Reese inheriting players when you also try to fluff up Accorsi's Cleveland track record? Almost all of the best players on those 1985-89 Browns teams, the ones before Accorsi ran them into the ground, were inherited: Ozzie Newsome, Clay Matthews, Chip Banks, Hanford Dixon, Frank Minnifield, Bob Golic, Earnest Byner.
His drafting was mostly dreadful - Mike Junkin @ fifth overall in 1987 being one of the worst top five picks you'll ever see. Had a few nice picks late in his tenure there - Michael Dean Perry, Rob Burnett, Anthony Pleasant - but on the whole his drafts were bad.
I think Reese picked up some bad habits from Ernie especially on the OL that over time destroyed the foundation of the team.
The OL was made a huge priority when Coughlin was hired.
Manning
Jacobs, Shockey
Diehl, Snee,
Osi, Tuck, Kiwanuka, Joseph
And he signed some significant free agents with Burris, Pierce, McKenzie, Robbins, etc.
Pretty solid resume there...
i think many of us realize that, along with the fall off in draft quality as he continued to ascend in the organization. which went off a cliff when he was promoted after SB46.
Yeah. But this exercise is Accorsi v Reese. So, staying in within those parameters, I have to give Accorsi the check mark.
Manning
Jacobs, Shockey
Diehl, Snee,
Osi, Tuck, Kiwanuka, Joseph
And he signed some significant free agents with Burris, Pierce, McKenzie, Robbins, etc.
Pretty solid resume there...
accorsi has 3 legacies that all happened to intersect both SB wins.
1. Eli trade (which was gutsy)
2. "you can never have enough pass rushers"
3. the core OL - ohara and mckenzie were in all probability finds from pro personnel before reese was heavily involved there, though reese was obviously heavily involved in the guys from draft. maybe not seubert as much since he was a UDFA in 99 but who knows maybe reese was the scout who liked him.
accorsi ran the trifecta of those 3 philosophical things on his way out the door which he deserves fall credit for, though they werent hallmarks of his earlier tenure. his earlier attempts to surround strahan didnt work well (kenny holmes looking at you) and his OLs were often a big weakness pre-coughlin.
i dont think you can separate reese's role running drafts from accorsi's success, so reese gets credit for that. i think reese was good at the draft (better than accorsi) but also had too many blindspots (marc ross, OL).
The 2007 draft was one of the best in NYG history. That draft was full of instant contributors which all helped win a Super Bowl.
From 2007 to 2011, guys like JPP, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham were brought in which were crucial contributors to get another Super Bowl,
People often overlook the bad injury luck Reese had:
-Kenny Phillips
-Terrell Thomas
-David Wilson
-Hakeem Nicks (injury cut career short)
-Victor Cruz (injury cut career short)
When things began to deteriorate, NYG was picking later in the draft. 2012 being a prime example - it's a lot harder to hit on the draft when you're picking low. Just look at SF's recent drafts. This is why it's so comical when Gettleman is propped up here, Gettleman had nothing but top picks and still couldn't get the trains back on the track.
Not to mention Reese ran Accorsi's drafts. So yes, I do defend Reese often here because he's treated like shit by many here. Still wondering why he isn't in the Ring of Honor.
This. Phillips, Nicks, Cruz were on there way to being all time Giants imo
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This guy is a 2x Super Bowl champion GM and I've read posters here say that Gettleman was better. It's extremely disrespectful.
The 2007 draft was one of the best in NYG history. That draft was full of instant contributors which all helped win a Super Bowl.
From 2007 to 2011, guys like JPP, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham were brought in which were crucial contributors to get another Super Bowl,
People often overlook the bad injury luck Reese had:
-Kenny Phillips
-Terrell Thomas
-David Wilson
-Hakeem Nicks (injury cut career short)
-Victor Cruz (injury cut career short)
When things began to deteriorate, NYG was picking later in the draft. 2012 being a prime example - it's a lot harder to hit on the draft when you're picking low. Just look at SF's recent drafts. This is why it's so comical when Gettleman is propped up here, Gettleman had nothing but top picks and still couldn't get the trains back on the track.
Not to mention Reese ran Accorsi's drafts. So yes, I do defend Reese often here because he's treated like shit by many here. Still wondering why he isn't in the Ring of Honor.
This. Phillips, Nicks, Cruz were on there way to being all time Giants imo
Think you need to include Steve Smith too.
i think his weakness was not building a strong FO around him because the non-premium picks got worse as he ascended.
i think many of us realize that, along with the fall off in draft quality as he continued to ascend in the organization. which went off a cliff when he was promoted after SB46.
I think there's one fan in particular who struggles with this date.
Still think Richie Seubert was a JAG OL and that Will Beatty was a SB pedigree OL?
Still think Richie Seubert was a JAG OL and that Will Beatty was a SB pedigree OL?
Show me where I said either of those things.
i think his weakness was not building a strong FO around him because the non-premium picks got worse as he ascended.
I agree with you 100%
This is the rot JS has to address and unfortunately this takes time till we see results. Dave fired Marc Ross but he did not change much in the front office.
For this debate I give Ernie the nod becuase he built a good team with Reese around him. Reese could not manage the front office
By 2007 Manning was really was coming into his own, and I don't think he gets enough credit for how well the line came together.
Diehl, Suebert, and O'Hara weren't highly touted, high resource players. They were all scrappy players who I think greatly benefited from Manning's pre-snap and recognition skills.
I think that one decision alone was played a huge part in that championship.
-Kenny Phillips
-Terrell Thomas
-David Wilson
-Hakeem Nicks (injury cut career short)
-Victor Cruz (injury cut career short)
Can't leave out JPP, or even that safety who was injured in a car crash and never even made it to a training camp.
By 2007 Manning was really was coming into his own, and I don't think he gets enough credit for how well the line came together.
Diehl, Suebert, and O'Hara weren't highly touted, high resource players. They were all scrappy players who I think greatly benefited from Manning's pre-snap and recognition skills.
I think that one decision alone was played a huge part in that championship.
There is too much propping up of one party while criticizing another party in this fanbase. As you have often said, it's everyone. Reese, Coughlin & Eli all share credit just like they all share blame. This idea that they won in spite of Reese is ridiculous.
Like the offensive line example above. The UDFAs, UFAs, and draft picks were walking into the system and succeeding.
Maintaining success is often harder than getting there.
Philly and Dallas both had three AP/PB OL in 2017 and even WFT had two. All three teams had a future HOF'er at LT.
I would have liked to see Eli with lines like those teams or like the one that TC and Ernie put together. Like Mara recently said they used to win a lot of games when they had the OL.
Seubert was a very good OG and Madden discussed him as a good player in 2002.
The Giants had a strong offensive line in 2012, and a strong defensive line in 2020 for instance, with little to individual recognition.
It's weird how much you obsess over the individual recognition.
Like the offensive line example above. The UDFAs, UFAs, and draft picks were walking into the system and succeeding.
Maintaining success is often harder than getting there.
Accorsi is in that group, Ross isnt. He was a replacement when Reese moved up to take Accorsi's seat, and proved to be a big downgrade in that seat.
Like the offensive line example above. The UDFAs, UFAs, and draft picks were walking into the system and succeeding.
Maintaining success is often harder than getting there.
Accorsi is in that group, Ross isnt. He was a replacement when Reese moved up to take Accorsi's seat, and proved to be a big downgrade in that seat.
In the first three years Ross was Reese's top guy -- they picked Phillips, Thomas, Maningham, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, and Joseph. And signed Cruz as an UDFA. The college scouting was pretty good those years.
The OL was pretty good in 2012 but you also had some transition going on in the NFCE and the schedule was soft.
Recognition is a big deal. Especially when you are talking about left tackle.
Anyone with half a brain understands the value of a top LT and how that can impact a team and offense. WFT, Philly and Dallas each had one.
he literally hit 0 multi-year starters in his whole time where reese's last 3 drafts alone hit 4 such players (jacobs, cofield, boss, bradshaw). he'd also hit gibril wilson the year before, so he 1 day 3 starter in each of his last 4 drafts.
in all of marc ross' drafts, his best day 3 pick was either jon goff or devon kennard. and a staggering amount of total non-contributors.
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I think Gettleman, Reese, Ross, and Coughlin worked really well together for several years -- and then a combination of injuries, age, and ego got the best of them.
Like the offensive line example above. The UDFAs, UFAs, and draft picks were walking into the system and succeeding.
Maintaining success is often harder than getting there.
Accorsi is in that group, Ross isnt. He was a replacement when Reese moved up to take Accorsi's seat, and proved to be a big downgrade in that seat.
In the first three years Ross was Reese's top guy -- they picked Phillips, Thomas, Maningham, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, and Joseph. And signed Cruz as an UDFA. The college scouting was pretty good those years.
you can call this a cop out or not, but i give a scouting director the least credit for the highest picks - same as i view it today and last year that it was schoen and dabs who were front and center strategizing/deciding jms/hyatt. they are going to decide which of the big 3 Wrs to pick or which QB to pull trigger on - not the scouting director. the scouting org obviously does a ton of work on those picks but the main guys make the big decisions.
phillips, nicks, jpp, joseph were huge hits. ross gets his share of credit but it's a share. and basically the only positive on his resume. thomas, manningham, beatty to a lesser degree than the first 4 who were legitimate stars.
If not for a comical number of injuries to that group, the Giants very likely extend their run of winning seasons beyond 2012.
There's no reason to believe the scouting director wasn't a party to that success. That's a conclusion I'm perfectly comfortable qualifies that Ross worked well with his co-workers during that time.
If your conclusion is Ross gets no credit for the things that went well and the blame for the things that didn't, I'll let you and LoS scrape the barrel together. Have fun, but watch out!
Probably not the best idea for the Giants to have the two key people in the front office have a background as a WR/DB.
The lines, especially the OL going to crap is not a surprise imv.
If your conclusion is Ross gets no credit for the things that went well and the blame for the things that didn't, I'll let you and LoS scrape the barrel together. Have fun, but watch out!
i clearly said he gets a share of the credit for top picks, i just think it's the area a director of scouting has the least impact. first round picks are huge organizational decisions from a set of generally obvious players sitting in a green room. more than half of BBI could have made the Nicks and Phillips picks.
we have heard and will hear again next week some version of the phrase "day 3 is where scouts make their money" - i agree with that. it's also why marc ross hasnt been a paid scout since the nyg fired him.
Shit, imagine if they also had a coach with a background as a WR.
If you knew a little more about TC you would clearly see he always prioritized the OL and running game. Not sure how anyone can dispute this and if they did it’s pretty dumb.
And good thing he prioritized them, lest Smith, Burress, Nicks, and Cruz might not have been Giants.
Remind us, when the Giants acquired the good receivers, this was when Coughlin was in control, correct?