I love both Odunze and Nabers as prospects. They are both elite. Nevertheless, I can't help but think it would not be wise taking one of them at 6 when we have needs at QB, CB, DL, TE, S, RB, OL and more. What good does a WR do when we have so many holes on the roster and a big question mark at QB?
We could get Odunze and Melton in the first 2 rounds or we could get Fautanu, Orhorhoro, Melton, and Benson just as an example.
I say if Schoen can't or doesn't get a QB with pick 6 then he needs to tradedown, perhaps multiple times. This is a very strong draft in the top 100. Either get a QB via pick 6 or stack picks in the top 100 and properly build the roster.
OK, i get it.
But that is not a reason to not draft an exceptional, all pro type player. You are drafting the player, not position.
If Rome Odunze becomes Larry Fitzgerald, nobody is going to care about positional value.
WR is a premium position and gets paid as such. To draft a stud #1 weapon and get a 5th year option for that player, is invaluable.
That of course, if they can't get Maye.
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In comment 16470874 ryanmkeane said:
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One of the worst arguments in pro sports is comparing Beckham's stats vs the Giants winning games.
Beckham was an exceptional receiver for years on the Giants. The reason the Giants didn't win during his tenure was that the OL was awful and other than 1 season, the defense was largely awful.
Beckham was an excellent draft pick.
That's makes my point. Beckham's high level performance didn't make a difference in W/L because more important areas weren't performing.
No, that doesn't make your point. Your point is not valid because Beckham was an exceptional player. If the Giants had better coaches and players on defense, they likely make the playoffs a lot more times during his tenure here.
Once again, we had Eli Manning playing some of the best football of his career then. The comparison is moot.
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OK, i get it.
But that is not a reason to not draft an exceptional, all pro type player. You are drafting the player, not position.
If Rome Odunze becomes Larry Fitzgerald, nobody is going to care about positional value.
WR is a premium position and gets paid as such. To draft a stud #1 weapon and get a 5th year option for that player, is invaluable.
That of course, if they can't get Maye.
If we only get 2 years at the most of Odunze reaching his potential, how is that invaluable? If we take Odunze and don't get a better option at QB, then even if we get a good option in 2025 he won't be productive until 2026-27.
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OK, i get it.
But that is not a reason to not draft an exceptional, all pro type player. You are drafting the player, not position.
If Rome Odunze becomes Larry Fitzgerald, nobody is going to care about positional value.
WR is a premium position and gets paid as such. To draft a stud #1 weapon and get a 5th year option for that player, is invaluable.
That of course, if they can't get Maye.
It wasn't invaluable to the Guests in 2014.
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In comment 16470879 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16470874 ryanmkeane said:
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One of the worst arguments in pro sports is comparing Beckham's stats vs the Giants winning games.
Beckham was an exceptional receiver for years on the Giants. The reason the Giants didn't win during his tenure was that the OL was awful and other than 1 season, the defense was largely awful.
Beckham was an excellent draft pick.
That's makes my point. Beckham's high level performance didn't make a difference in W/L because more important areas weren't performing.
No, that doesn't make your point. Your point is not valid because Beckham was an exceptional player. If the Giants had better coaches and players on defense, they likely make the playoffs a lot more times during his tenure here.
Once again, we had Eli Manning playing some of the best football of his career then. The comparison is moot.
So if Eli was still playing great ball then drafting a QB is useless too.
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In comment 16470882 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16470879 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16470874 ryanmkeane said:
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One of the worst arguments in pro sports is comparing Beckham's stats vs the Giants winning games.
Beckham was an exceptional receiver for years on the Giants. The reason the Giants didn't win during his tenure was that the OL was awful and other than 1 season, the defense was largely awful.
Beckham was an excellent draft pick.
That's makes my point. Beckham's high level performance didn't make a difference in W/L because more important areas weren't performing.
No, that doesn't make your point. Your point is not valid because Beckham was an exceptional player. If the Giants had better coaches and players on defense, they likely make the playoffs a lot more times during his tenure here.
Once again, we had Eli Manning playing some of the best football of his career then. The comparison is moot.
So if Eli was still playing great ball then drafting a QB is useless too.
We don't have Eli Manning now. Whats your point?
Aaron Donald or Zach Martin would have been better picks.
On defense, Dex, Burns, Thibs, Okereke, Banks would be locks. Outside of Barkley, not one other player on our offense since OBJ remotely scares an opponent. The Giants are so desperately lacking offensive weapons it’s scary.
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In comment 16470888 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16470882 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16470879 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16470874 ryanmkeane said:
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One of the worst arguments in pro sports is comparing Beckham's stats vs the Giants winning games.
Beckham was an exceptional receiver for years on the Giants. The reason the Giants didn't win during his tenure was that the OL was awful and other than 1 season, the defense was largely awful.
Beckham was an excellent draft pick.
That's makes my point. Beckham's high level performance didn't make a difference in W/L because more important areas weren't performing.
No, that doesn't make your point. Your point is not valid because Beckham was an exceptional player. If the Giants had better coaches and players on defense, they likely make the playoffs a lot more times during his tenure here.
Once again, we had Eli Manning playing some of the best football of his career then. The comparison is moot.
So if Eli was still playing great ball then drafting a QB is useless too.
We don't have Eli Manning now. Whats your point?
Aaron Donald or Zach Martin would have been better picks.
Why did you post a thread as a question if you don't want to see anyone else's view?
If the Giants go with Jones and pick a WR, they'll need someone to create the yards. Nabers had the higest YAC/R among the big 3 receivers and the highest avoided tackle rate.
If the Giants are looking for an OBJ impact, Nabers is the pick.
So, are you saying these WRs - the "top three" - are sure things? If so, how do you know that?
Each draft is definitely independent of prior draft outcomes, but it's hard to ignore that the majority of the best WRs in the NFL right now are not day one picks.
Namely: Hill, both Browns, Aiyuk, Adams, Nacua, Kupp, Diggs...and on and on and one.
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In comment 16470897 Giantsbigblue said:
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In comment 16470888 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16470882 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16470879 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16470874 ryanmkeane said:
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One of the worst arguments in pro sports is comparing Beckham's stats vs the Giants winning games.
Beckham was an exceptional receiver for years on the Giants. The reason the Giants didn't win during his tenure was that the OL was awful and other than 1 season, the defense was largely awful.
Beckham was an excellent draft pick.
That's makes my point. Beckham's high level performance didn't make a difference in W/L because more important areas weren't performing.
No, that doesn't make your point. Your point is not valid because Beckham was an exceptional player. If the Giants had better coaches and players on defense, they likely make the playoffs a lot more times during his tenure here.
Once again, we had Eli Manning playing some of the best football of his career then. The comparison is moot.
So if Eli was still playing great ball then drafting a QB is useless too.
We don't have Eli Manning now. Whats your point?
Aaron Donald or Zach Martin would have been better picks.
Why did you post a thread as a question if you don't want to see anyone else's view?
I want to see the light, but comparing OBJ with Eli to Odunze with DJ/Lock isn't doing it for me.
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In comment 16470902 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16470897 Giantsbigblue said:
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In comment 16470888 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16470882 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16470879 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16470874 ryanmkeane said:
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One of the worst arguments in pro sports is comparing Beckham's stats vs the Giants winning games.
Beckham was an exceptional receiver for years on the Giants. The reason the Giants didn't win during his tenure was that the OL was awful and other than 1 season, the defense was largely awful.
Beckham was an excellent draft pick.
That's makes my point. Beckham's high level performance didn't make a difference in W/L because more important areas weren't performing.
No, that doesn't make your point. Your point is not valid because Beckham was an exceptional player. If the Giants had better coaches and players on defense, they likely make the playoffs a lot more times during his tenure here.
Once again, we had Eli Manning playing some of the best football of his career then. The comparison is moot.
So if Eli was still playing great ball then drafting a QB is useless too.
We don't have Eli Manning now. Whats your point?
Aaron Donald or Zach Martin would have been better picks.
Why did you post a thread as a question if you don't want to see anyone else's view?
I want to see the light, but comparing OBJ with Eli to Odunze with DJ/Lock isn't doing it for me.
I did neither. I was just pointing out that having a good QB at the time made no difference when the team and Defense was garbage.
If you want to draft a QB at 6, just say it. I won't poo poo that opinion. I just think an alpha WR is very important and could improve an offense.
any of the 3 WR we could wind up with has a 90+ rating from SY
However,due to our QB/Ol situation...it may be a wasted pick.
If we go WR I am ok,but I would prefer trading back....for the exact reasons your question is even asked in the first place.
On defense, Dex, Burns, Thibs, Okereke, Banks would be locks. Outside of Barkley, not one other player on our offense since OBJ remotely scares an opponent. The Giants are so desperately lacking offensive weapons it’s scary.
All 3 of our receivers would be WR3/role players on the Chiefs, Browns, Ravens, Bills?
Every team has a different board. Every team has different priorities.
Every team falls in love with players and as you know from the top 30 visits, we tend to draft quite a few from that list.
WR is a smart move if you have a deep conviction on the player and the person. Culture matters as does elite talent.
Imagine if OBJ wasn't a diva WR and still had all that talent. He was drafted at pick 12. Odunze is a high quality player, person, teammate. Off the charts work ethic.
A very clean player. If we select a WR at 6 I hope it is him.
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In comment 16470908 Giantsbigblue said:
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In comment 16470902 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16470897 Giantsbigblue said:
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In comment 16470888 BleedBlue46 said:
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In comment 16470882 ryanmkeane said:
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In comment 16470879 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16470874 ryanmkeane said:
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One of the worst arguments in pro sports is comparing Beckham's stats vs the Giants winning games.
Beckham was an exceptional receiver for years on the Giants. The reason the Giants didn't win during his tenure was that the OL was awful and other than 1 season, the defense was largely awful.
Beckham was an excellent draft pick.
That's makes my point. Beckham's high level performance didn't make a difference in W/L because more important areas weren't performing.
No, that doesn't make your point. Your point is not valid because Beckham was an exceptional player. If the Giants had better coaches and players on defense, they likely make the playoffs a lot more times during his tenure here.
Once again, we had Eli Manning playing some of the best football of his career then. The comparison is moot.
So if Eli was still playing great ball then drafting a QB is useless too.
We don't have Eli Manning now. Whats your point?
Aaron Donald or Zach Martin would have been better picks.
Why did you post a thread as a question if you don't want to see anyone else's view?
I want to see the light, but comparing OBJ with Eli to Odunze with DJ/Lock isn't doing it for me.
I did neither. I was just pointing out that having a good QB at the time made no difference when the team and Defense was garbage.
If you want to draft a QB at 6, just say it. I won't poo poo that opinion. I just think an alpha WR is very important and could improve an offense.
It could, but the question is it wise given our OL and QB situation recently?
Every team has a different board. Every team has different priorities.
Every team falls in love with players and as you know from the top 30 visits, we tend to draft quite a few from that list.
WR is a smart move if you have a deep conviction on the player and the person. Culture matters as does elite talent.
Imagine if OBJ wasn't a diva WR and still had all that talent. He was drafted at pick 12. Odunze is a high quality player, person, teammate. Off the charts work ethic.
A very clean player. If we select a WR at 6 I hope it is him.
Everyone keeps bringing up OBJ, but we had Eli Manning ballin then. We have Lock and DJ now.
Plus, the draft is more like poker than a crapshoot. Good GMs get good players in the top 100 like the 49ers and Rams and others.
So, a very good QB and a very good WR didn't lead to wins.
We should cross QB and WR off the chart at 6.
In addition to QB we certainly need WR, Edge, OL, CB to name a few. But there is no guarantee that guys at those positions with those grades are there. We can identify for example that CB is a pressing need, but there may not be a CB sitting there in the second. More second round picks doesn’t help address that.
If you trust your scouts and your coaches you draft talent where ever it presents itself because that is the surest way to not end up with a bunch of JAGs you need to replace every 2-3 years.
Guess what, that's happened.
Don't buy into the BS that WR1's are hard to find, they aren't. The Giants are just, really really bad at evaluating and identifying them.
If none of the QB's referenced above are available at 6 (and we could not work out a trade to get one) and there is an offer on the table that represents solid value for the pick while still keeping us in the "1st round talent" area of our board then it would be idiotic to take a WR.
If neither of the scenarios referenced above exist then drafting a WR may ending up netting us the best player. With an OL at 7 you better be getting a Quentin Nelson not a DJ Fluker, Evan Neal, Ereck Flowers, etc. That is easier said than done with how many young OL have struggled throughout the NFL.
How about we do this exercise with BBIs favorite non-giant - Justin Herbert. No playoff wins. Top 5 pick this year. Maybe the chargers should look to get rid of him too? Since his success has not led to any team success whatsoever.
Maybe Jacksonville should get rid of Lawrence too. Hell guys like Prescott, Cousins, Mayfield, Watson should never gotten deals either since they have proven they can’t win in the playoffs. And of course there’s the whole Ravens situation where their franchise QBs chokes year after year in the playoffs with the leagues top defense nearly every year and a HOF coach.
Maybe they should move on from their QBs too.
So, a very good QB and a very good WR didn't lead to wins.
We should cross QB and WR off the chart at 6.
They were effective together, but a good ER without a good QB could just waste most of the rookie wr contract. I'd rather stack 2nd round rounds picks and 2025 draft capital personally and I haven't seen anyone make me feel good about WR at 6 in this thread yet. This is coming from someone who was on board with WR at 6 if no qb before. After further contemplation, I don't think that would be wise.
And if people want to use the Mahomes example of not having great WRs and still wins..
1) players like Mahomes rarely come around if ever.
2) he still has the best TE in the game who has dominated the NFL in the pass game.
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You should draft the safest, blue chip player and that may be Odunze.
Every team has a different board. Every team has different priorities.
Every team falls in love with players and as you know from the top 30 visits, we tend to draft quite a few from that list.
WR is a smart move if you have a deep conviction on the player and the person. Culture matters as does elite talent.
Imagine if OBJ wasn't a diva WR and still had all that talent. He was drafted at pick 12. Odunze is a high quality player, person, teammate. Off the charts work ethic.
A very clean player. If we select a WR at 6 I hope it is him.
Everyone keeps bringing up OBJ, but we had Eli Manning ballin then. We have Lock and DJ now.
Plus, the draft is more like poker than a crapshoot. Good GMs get good players in the top 100 like the 49ers and Rams and others.
I don’t care who is throwing the ball in this discussion. If you are asking if drafting a solid blue chip WR with high character is worth the 6th pick I say yes if you have done the work and have a conviction.
Look, NFL teams spend shit loads of money scouting players and the process. Just look at the new video on the Giants high tech draft room. You don’t want to whiff on your first round pick. If Odunze is the pick or MHJ possibly, that wouldn’t be a wasted pick. We all know what a viable number 1 WR will do for an offense. We have other good young WR that would get open just by the presence of a top WR.
Odunze, Hyatt, Robinson, Slayton, Bellinger and Waller, assuming he plays, is a solid group.
The offensive line has a much better chance of being improved with the 5 linemen they have been signed along with the group we have.
Singletary is a solid back. I can see them drafting another back on day 2.
Jones, Lock and DeVito won’t scare anybody, I get it, but saying a great WR prospect won’t improve the offense along with an improved OL is just a massive unknown.
And I want a QB in round 1. So don’t think they I’m all in on WR.
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In comment 16470944 Rjanyg said:
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You should draft the safest, blue chip player and that may be Odunze.
Every team has a different board. Every team has different priorities.
Every team falls in love with players and as you know from the top 30 visits, we tend to draft quite a few from that list.
WR is a smart move if you have a deep conviction on the player and the person. Culture matters as does elite talent.
Imagine if OBJ wasn't a diva WR and still had all that talent. He was drafted at pick 12. Odunze is a high quality player, person, teammate. Off the charts work ethic.
A very clean player. If we select a WR at 6 I hope it is him.
Everyone keeps bringing up OBJ, but we had Eli Manning ballin then. We have Lock and DJ now.
Plus, the draft is more like poker than a crapshoot. Good GMs get good players in the top 100 like the 49ers and Rams and others.
I don’t care who is throwing the ball in this discussion. If you are asking if drafting a solid blue chip WR with high character is worth the 6th pick I say yes if you have done the work and have a conviction.
Look, NFL teams spend shit loads of money scouting players and the process. Just look at the new video on the Giants high tech draft room. You don’t want to whiff on your first round pick. If Odunze is the pick or MHJ possibly, that wouldn’t be a wasted pick. We all know what a viable number 1 WR will do for an offense. We have other good young WR that would get open just by the presence of a top WR.
Odunze, Hyatt, Robinson, Slayton, Bellinger and Waller, assuming he plays, is a solid group.
The offensive line has a much better chance of being improved with the 5 linemen they have been signed along with the group we have.
Singletary is a solid back. I can see them drafting another back on day 2.
Jones, Lock and DeVito won’t scare anybody, I get it, but saying a great WR prospect won’t improve the offense along with an improved OL is just a massive unknown.
And I want a QB in round 1. So don’t think they I’m all in on WR.
I never said it wouldn't improve the offense. I'm just questioning if a trade down would he wiser if we can't get a QB via pick 6.
I didn't know there was a podcast. I'll have to look for it.
I'm hopeful the offensive line can improve with Neal and JMS and the 2 free agents and new line coach.
I'd argue it's much better to get the QB then work on skill positions. The QB is the engine of the offense, OL is the transmission, and skill position players are the stereo and aftermarket stuff.
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Is like getting a kick ass stereo for your car before fixing the engine
I'd argue it's much better to get the QB then work on skill positions. The QB is the engine of the offense, OL is the transmission, and skill position players are the stereo and aftermarket stuff.
Not all skill positions are created equal. Having the WR1 who can allow others to face single coverage and prevent 7 and 8 man boxes goes a long way. Without spreading the field, our RB’s are always facing more in the box than blockers.
The giants should not and will not trade down just for the sake of trading down. You do not get the value, just as you don't take a quarterback just because you have to take one.
If you don't have your quarterback available and you don't have a very good offer from another team to trade down, then you take the best player on your board.
As it looks right now it is most likely Rome or Nabers. Take the best player. The talk last year was that the Giants were looking at the wide receivers with their 1st round pick. They went off the board and they got banks. Nothing wrong with taking a wide receiver this year with their 1st round pick. It fills a need and the value is there.
The giants should not and will not trade down just for the sake of trading down. You do not get the value, just as you don't take a quarterback just because you have to take one.
If you don't have your quarterback available and you don't have a very good offer from another team to trade down, then you take the best player on your board.
As it looks right now it is most likely Rome or Nabers. Take the best player. The talk last year was that the Giants were looking at the wide receivers with their 1st round pick. They went off the board and they got banks. Nothing wrong with taking a wide receiver this year with their 1st round pick. It fills a need and the value is there.
If these WRs are seen by the NFL as elite as BBI sees them, someone will be willing to trade up for one. Plus, Joe Alt and other tackles.
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Is like getting a kick ass stereo for your car before fixing the engine
I'd argue it's much better to get the QB then work on skill positions. The QB is the engine of the offense, OL is the transmission, and skill position players are the stereo and aftermarket stuff.
I actually meant to say getting the WR now... not QB
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It has been said every year, but the fact of the matter is you have to have a team willing to trade up and be willing to pay that price. Most times you can get that value if there is a quarterback teams are vying for. I don't see that being the case.
The giants should not and will not trade down just for the sake of trading down. You do not get the value, just as you don't take a quarterback just because you have to take one.
If you don't have your quarterback available and you don't have a very good offer from another team to trade down, then you take the best player on your board.
As it looks right now it is most likely Rome or Nabers. Take the best player. The talk last year was that the Giants were looking at the wide receivers with their 1st round pick. They went off the board and they got banks. Nothing wrong with taking a wide receiver this year with their 1st round pick. It fills a need and the value is there.
If these WRs are seen by the NFL as elite as BBI sees them, someone will be willing to trade up for one. Plus, Joe Alt and other tackles.
It's not about seeing them as elite or not. The only position in regards to the draft that you can premium value to trade up is quarterback. You do not see that for any other positions, because a quarterback is that valuable.
As far as offensive tackles go, there isn't a demand to trade up. For instance, Sy has 5 offensive tackles ranked close together at the top. A team may view one of the offensive tackles above the rest, but they will like more than one. More than likely all 5 would still be on the board at 6. Teams will wait and see who might drop.
But anything multiplied by zero is still zero, and right now our QB room is exactly that
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In comment 16471232 TrueBlue56 said:
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It has been said every year, but the fact of the matter is you have to have a team willing to trade up and be willing to pay that price. Most times you can get that value if there is a quarterback teams are vying for. I don't see that being the case.
The giants should not and will not trade down just for the sake of trading down. You do not get the value, just as you don't take a quarterback just because you have to take one.
If you don't have your quarterback available and you don't have a very good offer from another team to trade down, then you take the best player on your board.
As it looks right now it is most likely Rome or Nabers. Take the best player. The talk last year was that the Giants were looking at the wide receivers with their 1st round pick. They went off the board and they got banks. Nothing wrong with taking a wide receiver this year with their 1st round pick. It fills a need and the value is there.
If these WRs are seen by the NFL as elite as BBI sees them, someone will be willing to trade up for one. Plus, Joe Alt and other tackles.
It's not about seeing them as elite or not. The only position in regards to the draft that you can premium value to trade up is quarterback. You do not see that for any other positions, because a quarterback is that valuable.
As far as offensive tackles go, there isn't a demand to trade up. For instance, Sy has 5 offensive tackles ranked close together at the top. A team may view one of the offensive tackles above the rest, but they will like more than one. More than likely all 5 would still be on the board at 6. Teams will wait and see who might drop.
If the trade down offers aren't there, then so be it, I still think a team would trade a good amount for Alt or Nabers or Odunze. Or if JJM is there and we don't want him.
And worst of all, in his seventh, eighth, and ninth years, when an offensive lineman or tight end is still near peak performance helping the run and the pass, Beckham played in but seven, six and eight games.
George Young, in building the Giants, did not use a premium pick on a wide receiver until 1985 when he picked Stacey Robinson second. And two years later after the Giants won their first Super Bowl, and were pretty well set in the running game and the defense, did he use a first and a third to draft Ingram and Baker.
We assume it isn't weird for the Cardinals and Chargers, two teams with a desperate need for WRs, to pass on the top three. But somehow it would be for the Giants.
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I'm going to talk about this on the podcast tomorrow.
We assume it isn't weird for the Cardinals and Chargers, two teams with a desperate need for WRs, to pass on the top three. But somehow it would be for the Giants.
take the stud WR he makes your whole offense more effective. Giants have shored up the OL I would take A WR at one trade up and take a Nix or penix. They may even take a 2nd WR later.
If Schoen has some intel Penix will last into the end of rd1, then I'd be thrilled with Odunze at 6 and Penix later.