With the prospects of Jones returning and the last good football he played being in large part because of his wheels, how do you feel about Jones and/or a rookie being a big part of the run game?
Always been a big fan, but it comes with a couple catches
1. Might have a shorter career, at least as a starter. If an injury takes the wheels away that might be the end of their effectiveness.
2. Gotta think long and hard about paying them big money.
3. It's probably a good idea to carry 2 backups with similar traits that can operate in the same offense. Along those lines I wonder if it will become more of a thing to start pulling mobile QBs in certain situations. Does Jalen Hurts need to be the guy that does the tush push, for example?
I know people hate him, but I always respected Russell Wilson stepping out of bounds and getting one less yard than going for that extra yard & getting pounded.
But primary running QBs are just looking for trouble at some point because your #1 guy will get injured and ultimately perform at a lower level and then miss games. And that means losses.
If that's how you want to build your Offense then make sure you have a QB2 that is always ready.
RE: You have to have decent wheels and/or escapability to win.
But primary running QBs are just looking for trouble at some point because your #1 guy will get injured and ultimately perform at a lower level and then miss games. And that means losses.
If that's how you want to build your Offense then make sure you have a QB2 that is always ready.
This has been a problem for multiple Ravens seasons. Lamar is a terrific player, but he doesn’t get through many seasons without missing multiple games. You saw how close they were this year with him playing a full season. Imagine if he was always healthy.
He didn't need to run because he was an awesome passer.
I don't think it's one or the other. I think you can win with a pocket passer or a runner. Plentiful what they're good at and tailor the offense to that.
He didn't need to run because he was an awesome passer.
I don't think it's one or the other. I think you can win with a pocket passer or a runner. Plentiful what they're good at and tailor the offense to that.
He didn't need to run because he was an awesome passer.
I don't think it's one or the other. I think you can win with a pocket passer or a runner. Plentiful what they're good at and tailor the offense to that.
in today's game for so many reasons we have discussed over the years. But you don't need a Mike Vick or LJax type.
Mahomes isn't on the same level as, say, LJax, but he's a very opportunistic runner. Same with the likes of Herbert, Burrow, Watson, Dak. That's what you need.
But the run threat is bolstered by the passing ability as the real threat. That is the ultimate compliment in today's game.
BTW, most QBs are injured in the pocket, not on the loose. So, this concern about the risk being higher for a runner is not accurate.
As far as answering my own question -- Jones averaged 6.8 Y/A through the air and 5.9 YPC in 2022. All things considered he's pretty close to as effective on the ground as he is through the air.
I want my Qb to be able to avoid the rush, move in the pocket, and sometimes scramble to get the 1st down.
But if you depend on your Qb to be a major runner on your team, you're saying you dont value him as a Qb. You're shortening his career, you're putting him at risk, you're devaluing his throwing abilities.
Tom Brady - Generally accepted as the best QB in the history of the NFL. Tom was never veru mobile; he was very clever in the pocket and had a very quick release and accuracy.
Aaron Rogers - In his prime, he was the very best roll-out QB, very seldom looking to advance the ball, but always looking for targets
they tend to peter out in the playoffs. They also have shorter careers.
A select few have gotten fairly close to a championship, so I suppose it's only a matter of time before things line up favorably for it to finally happen, but the game is still dictated by who is throwing well from the pocket.
RE: My response to this question has two answers ....
Aaron Rogers - In his prime, he was the very best roll-out QB, very seldom looking to advance the ball, but always looking for targets
Not true about AA very seldom looking to run. In 2016, age 33 he gained 369 yards and 26 first downs.
For some comparison, Mahomes ran for 389 yards and 27 first downs this year, and both were career highs.
In the Super Bowl, Mahomes ran 9 times for 66 yards and they were big yards, including 8 yards on 4th and 1 in OT.
The most predictable, easiest offensive play to defend is the one where the QB takes the snap and hands the ball to the running back behind the line of scrimmage. The ball is exactly where the defense expects it to be and they have time to converge on it by the time the RB is getting to the LOS.
The ability of the QB to provide the variation of keeping the ball himself and doing something with it is an important part of a successful offense and results in many critical first down conversions.
evil. I do like the QBs that can run when they need to. I do not like it to be a large part of the play calls. A few RPOs per game is fine. If they can run, it helps the line and puts the defense at a disadvantage.
A biased opinion it shows up when facing points that don't support your opinion and you ignore those points or just pass them off.
Read Sy's breakdown of Penix, he doesn't run, doesn't throw as well on the move and has trouble with pressure and pressure around his feet and legs.. To ignore that or just brush that off shows a clear bias in opinion.
Penix isn't going to be able to just stand back there and throw..
A biased opinion it shows up when facing points that don't support your opinion and you ignore those points or just pass them off.
Read Sy's breakdown of Penix, he doesn't run, doesn't throw as well on the move and has trouble with pressure and pressure around his feet and legs.. To ignore that or just brush that off shows a clear bias in opinion.
Penix isn't going to be able to just stand back there and throw..
I just re-read Sy's breakdown. Can you point to where he says anything you printed?
"He did not always deal with tight windows and quality opposing defenses well."
"You ever golf with someone that is an absolute monster off the tee box? Forget everything else. He’s simply a dude every time he gets to tee it up, he launches it. That is Penix as a quarterback. He can make the explosive downfield passes with the be best. Because of scheme and who he had at receiver, Penix simply did not have to do a lot with crossers and/or west coast concepts. Because of his offensive line and poor Pac-12 pass rushes, he constantly had a ton of room to navigate within the pocket. The question that he enters the league with, beyond the scary medicals, is what he can do with his long drive off the tee box. Can he chip? Can he putt? Can get the approach shot over water and in front of the sand? How many clubs in that bag does he truly use at a high level? We just don’t know. There is a level of unknown to every prospect. That is what makes some of this playing darts with a blindfold on. Penix, if healthy and that is a big if, has as much arm talent as any of the guys listed above. For the record, the medicals downgraded him from an 82 grade. So don’t get it twisted. NYG in round two makes some sense as long as the medicals are clean but that would give NYG two quarterbacks with serious concerns in that area. Robbing Peter to pay Paul? "
I know people hate him, but I always respected Russell Wilson stepping out of bounds and getting one less yard than going for that extra yard & getting pounded.
He was also a top level baseball prospect (like Kyler, just not as athletic) which also helps protect him with the ability to slide naturally.
After nearly 20 years of watching Eli and DJ awkwardly slide, I value that as an important talent for any qb.
need to excel from the pocket. Some smart runs is fine. If needed more of those in the playoffs or when needed.
BD's system has required the QB to provide between 25-30% of the rushing production. This was with JA and DJ. He learned this at Bama. Not a fan of his running system. I prefer running teams like Detroit, SF, Miami, LAR, etc., that run the ball mostly with the RB's.
You don't have to have a running QB to win a SB. That is nonsense. Stafford, Brady, Manning's, Foles, Flacco, etc.
Eagles won't add a "Wildcat RB" because the Wildcat is a formation that has a RB or non QB receive the ball from the shotgun. The "tush push" is a play QB under center.
I would be interesting seeing that article discussing injuries. Total number of hits from the pocket versus runs is something I would like to see.
of a QB’s role in today’s NFL. IF Jones’s neck is fine, I don’t think the ACL will be a hindrance. The issue with DJ running is that, as fast as he is, he isn’t elusive, runs too upright, and leaves himself open to big hits.
With the possible exception of Penix, each of the top 6 QB’s have good mobility. If we take one of them, you can be sure Daboll will work in some read option plays, especially early to simplify things for a young QB. That said, I don’t think he will rely on it as much as he does with Jones. I think he ran Jones so much because he doesn’t trust him in the passing game.
being considered a running QB first. I ask because I don’t think there’s a common definition for it and it’s a loose term. Is it number of rushing attempts per game, or a % of total yards?
Yes, he is productive running the ball, but the reason is the enormous pressure that he puts on the defense because of his effectiveness as a PASSER.
Lamar Jackson is an excellent example of a young QB who is getting to be a better total QB as his passing improves.
Michael Vick is the perfect antithetical example of an enormously talented QB who fell in-love with his own running talents and exploits and often forgot that the object of the game is winning by whatever combination the circumstances demanded.
Steve Young is another good example in the mold of Rogers. What made Young especially dangerous was that he had track sprinter speed.
2. Gotta think long and hard about paying them big money.
3. It's probably a good idea to carry 2 backups with similar traits that can operate in the same offense. Along those lines I wonder if it will become more of a thing to start pulling mobile QBs in certain situations. Does Jalen Hurts need to be the guy that does the tush push, for example?
If that's how you want to build your Offense then make sure you have a QB2 that is always ready.
If that's how you want to build your Offense then make sure you have a QB2 that is always ready.
This has been a problem for multiple Ravens seasons. Lamar is a terrific player, but he doesn’t get through many seasons without missing multiple games. You saw how close they were this year with him playing a full season. Imagine if he was always healthy.
Jones has been hurt in both situations, but most recently it was in the pocket.
He didn't need to run because he was an awesome passer.
I don't think it's one or the other. I think you can win with a pocket passer or a runner. Plentiful what they're good at and tailor the offense to that.
Jones has been hurt in both situations, but most recently it was in the pocket.
I have always been curious the length of injuries from inside the pocket than inside.
Quote:
He had 8 total yards rushing last season.
He didn't need to run because he was an awesome passer.
I don't think it's one or the other. I think you can win with a pocket passer or a runner. Plentiful what they're good at and tailor the offense to that.
He never was a good runner.
Quote:
In comment 16471349 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
He had 8 total yards rushing last season.
He didn't need to run because he was an awesome passer.
I don't think it's one or the other. I think you can win with a pocket passer or a runner. Plentiful what they're good at and tailor the offense to that.
He never was a good runner.
Never had to be.
Mahomes isn't on the same level as, say, LJax, but he's a very opportunistic runner. Same with the likes of Herbert, Burrow, Watson, Dak. That's what you need.
But the run threat is bolstered by the passing ability as the real threat. That is the ultimate compliment in today's game.
BTW, most QBs are injured in the pocket, not on the loose. So, this concern about the risk being higher for a runner is not accurate.
Only half tongue in cheek. Best QB’s do it with their arm, intelligence, guts, and savvy. Running ability helps but it’s not an imperative.
I want my Qb to be able to avoid the rush, move in the pocket, and sometimes scramble to get the 1st down.
But if you depend on your Qb to be a major runner on your team, you're saying you dont value him as a Qb. You're shortening his career, you're putting him at risk, you're devaluing his throwing abilities.
Tom Brady - Generally accepted as the best QB in the history of the NFL. Tom was never veru mobile; he was very clever in the pocket and had a very quick release and accuracy.
Aaron Rogers - In his prime, he was the very best roll-out QB, very seldom looking to advance the ball, but always looking for targets
A select few have gotten fairly close to a championship, so I suppose it's only a matter of time before things line up favorably for it to finally happen, but the game is still dictated by who is throwing well from the pocket.
Aaron Rogers - In his prime, he was the very best roll-out QB, very seldom looking to advance the ball, but always looking for targets
Not true about AA very seldom looking to run. In 2016, age 33 he gained 369 yards and 26 first downs.
For some comparison, Mahomes ran for 389 yards and 27 first downs this year, and both were career highs.
In the Super Bowl, Mahomes ran 9 times for 66 yards and they were big yards, including 8 yards on 4th and 1 in OT.
The most predictable, easiest offensive play to defend is the one where the QB takes the snap and hands the ball to the running back behind the line of scrimmage. The ball is exactly where the defense expects it to be and they have time to converge on it by the time the RB is getting to the LOS.
The ability of the QB to provide the variation of keeping the ball himself and doing something with it is an important part of a successful offense and results in many critical first down conversions.
Read Sy's breakdown of Penix, he doesn't run, doesn't throw as well on the move and has trouble with pressure and pressure around his feet and legs.. To ignore that or just brush that off shows a clear bias in opinion.
Penix isn't going to be able to just stand back there and throw..
Read Sy's breakdown of Penix, he doesn't run, doesn't throw as well on the move and has trouble with pressure and pressure around his feet and legs.. To ignore that or just brush that off shows a clear bias in opinion.
Penix isn't going to be able to just stand back there and throw..
I just re-read Sy's breakdown. Can you point to where he says anything you printed?
"He did not always deal with tight windows and quality opposing defenses well."
"You ever golf with someone that is an absolute monster off the tee box? Forget everything else. He’s simply a dude every time he gets to tee it up, he launches it. That is Penix as a quarterback. He can make the explosive downfield passes with the be best. Because of scheme and who he had at receiver, Penix simply did not have to do a lot with crossers and/or west coast concepts. Because of his offensive line and poor Pac-12 pass rushes, he constantly had a ton of room to navigate within the pocket. The question that he enters the league with, beyond the scary medicals, is what he can do with his long drive off the tee box. Can he chip? Can he putt? Can get the approach shot over water and in front of the sand? How many clubs in that bag does he truly use at a high level? We just don’t know. There is a level of unknown to every prospect. That is what makes some of this playing darts with a blindfold on. Penix, if healthy and that is a big if, has as much arm talent as any of the guys listed above. For the record, the medicals downgraded him from an 82 grade. So don’t get it twisted. NYG in round two makes some sense as long as the medicals are clean but that would give NYG two quarterbacks with serious concerns in that area. Robbing Peter to pay Paul? "
1) It exposes them to injury
2) It comes at the expense of passing the ball downfield
When it comes to Jones, are either of those true?
The third is more mysterious to me, that there's some inherent value in those carries going to a running back, which really confuses me.
After nearly 20 years of watching Eli and DJ awkwardly slide, I value that as an important talent for any qb.
BD's system has required the QB to provide between 25-30% of the rushing production. This was with JA and DJ. He learned this at Bama. Not a fan of his running system. I prefer running teams like Detroit, SF, Miami, LAR, etc., that run the ball mostly with the RB's.
You don't have to have a running QB to win a SB. That is nonsense. Stafford, Brady, Manning's, Foles, Flacco, etc.
Eagles won't add a "Wildcat RB" because the Wildcat is a formation that has a RB or non QB receive the ball from the shotgun. The "tush push" is a play QB under center.
I would be interesting seeing that article discussing injuries. Total number of hits from the pocket versus runs is something I would like to see.
Link - ( New Window )
It does make sense to use a RB and save your QB, but Hurts makes it work with his strong legs, squats 500+ no problem...
Not sure if these were cumulative or if they were caused by two plays. Heavy volume running QB's will take those hits and then the ones in the pocket.
With the possible exception of Penix, each of the top 6 QB’s have good mobility. If we take one of them, you can be sure Daboll will work in some read option plays, especially early to simplify things for a young QB. That said, I don’t think he will rely on it as much as he does with Jones. I think he ran Jones so much because he doesn’t trust him in the passing game.
Maybe the definition is something like 50 rushes per 17 games?
Maybe the definition is something like 50 rushes per 17 games?
Jones played four full games and parts of two games that add up to another game.
So call it five games and prorate his totals for a 17 game season.
Works out to 136 carries for 700 yards and 51 first downs. Would have been near the top of the stat categories, which somewhat surprises me.
And that's with the Niners having a plan to contain him and holding him to 2 carries for 5 yards in that Thursday night game.
Yes, he is productive running the ball, but the reason is the enormous pressure that he puts on the defense because of his effectiveness as a PASSER.
Lamar Jackson is an excellent example of a young QB who is getting to be a better total QB as his passing improves.
Michael Vick is the perfect antithetical example of an enormously talented QB who fell in-love with his own running talents and exploits and often forgot that the object of the game is winning by whatever combination the circumstances demanded.
Steve Young is another good example in the mold of Rogers. What made Young especially dangerous was that he had track sprinter speed.