1,400+ word thought piece on what the Giants may (or may not) do in the Draft. Well worth the read, summary below:
1. Giants are more likely to secure a QB by trading down (not up) in Round One or trading up in Round Two.
2. Looking more likely that Arizona deals 4th pick to Minny and not the Giants because the Cards want multiple #1's which the Giants are not likely to trade.
3. One of the top 3 WRs will be there at 6 and there have been. "...rumblings that head coach Brian Daboll has been lobbying for the Giants to take a WR... even if one of the top QB was still on the board at that point."
4. Critically, there are numerous examples of QBs succeeding once a true #1 WR has been secured.
5. Since the arrival of the Joe Schoen / Brian Daboll regime, there has been a shift in emphasis so that the coaches are driving the draft selection process, not the personnel department and not the scouts.
Giants Report: Thoughts on the 2024 Draft - (
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The chargers might be a consideration,
The chargers might be a consideration,
I'm not buying it either. A team desperate for an elite WR is going to trade out of the blue chip WR's? No chance.
That won't happen at 11.....and at 6....could happen with some extra picks.....and Nabers at worst.
It's a bad process to project your QB to turn top-15 as a passer in year six solely on the acquisition of a highly-drafted rookie. Plus, this doesn't account for our WRs looking productive when Tyrod and even DeVito were in. People will talk about Saquan and AT being injured, but Saquan is no longer on the roster, and olinemen getting injured is a part of life.
Do not forget that the NYG and AZ front office have some deep connections.
It's a bad process to project your QB to turn top-15 as a passer in year six solely on the acquisition of a highly-drafted rookie. Plus, this doesn't account for our WRs looking productive when Tyrod and even DeVito were in. People will talk about Saquan and AT being injured, but Saquan is no longer on the roster, and olinemen getting injured is a part of life.
Bingo
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"4. Critically, there are numerous examples of QBs succeeding once a true #1 WR has been secured."
It's a bad process to project your QB to turn top-15 as a passer in year six solely on the acquisition of a highly-drafted rookie. Plus, this doesn't account for our WRs looking productive when Tyrod and even DeVito were in. People will talk about Saquan and AT being injured, but Saquan is no longer on the roster, and olinemen getting injured is a part of life.
Bingo
Sure OL get hurt all the time, however subbing starters with Josh Ezeudu a guard masquerading as a LT or playing McKethan at RG coming off an ACL and getting little reps his 1st year and now starting is MISMANAGEMENT AND MALPRACTICE!!!
We did have the veterans we had the previous year if/when a starter got hurt. They overvalued Bobby Johnson and the guys they drafted. Johnson sucked and the 2nd year players weren’t ready.
Let’s get a clue guys.
It can’t always be everyone but Daniel’s fault
It can’t always be everyone but Daniel’s fault
I never said shit about Jones. I don’t have one issue with the Giants drafting a QB in the 1st or 2nd rounds. But let’s understand what we were watching last season. The facts are the facts. That was an awful OL put on that field wearing Giants blue. When you have to get Justin fucking Pugh off his couch then we know the state of the OL is bad!
Teams that are established (say SF), can take a lesser QB and make him a true NFL QB and leader because all the other pieces are there. A very average to below average QB is not going to grow and help establish an offense and offensive success because their short comings cannot be hidden during the process.
We need a true QB to grow with. I think people are going to be surprised at the top. New England and the NYG just feels like something is happening there..
It can’t always be everyone but Daniel’s fault
I’ve already explained it. You’re being willfully dense. Barkley, AT, JMS and WanDale are getting back on the field changed the offense for the better. Hence why you saw better QB play and of course the schedule eased up quite a bit.
Even if you want to move on from Jones, you can’t reach for a QB and make the problem go away. Keep getting blue chip talent in and get a QB later to develop.
He is 100% correct. There isn’t one successful QB in the league who doesn’t have at least one or multiple WR/TE threats. We currently have the worst skill position players in the league as a whole.
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With Jones no matter what. You’ve made that abundantly clear. How do you explain the uptick in our offense and receiving yards once Taylor and DeVito took over? The answer is they were willing to throw downfield and didn’t take a lifetime to process the field.
It can’t always be everyone but Daniel’s fault
I’ve already explained it. You’re being willfully dense. Barkley, AT, JMS and WanDale are getting back on the field changed the offense for the better. Hence why you saw better QB play and of course the schedule eased up quite a bit.
Someone is definitely being willfully dense here, but I assure you it isn’t me
Every team has backups who play significant snaps. We had backups who should NOT have been backups last year. Josh Ezeudu and McKethan weren’t ready to play. Period.
One situation doesn’t equate to another.
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Playing at 3 of 5 offensive line positions too.
Every team has backups who play significant snaps. We had backups who should NOT have been backups last year. Josh Ezeudu and McKethan weren’t ready to play. Period.
One situation doesn’t equate to another.
There’s barely enough good starting offensive lineman in the league, you think other teams don’t have backups just as bad as ours?
It's a bad process to project your QB to turn top-15 as a passer in year six solely on the acquisition of a highly-drafted rookie. Plus, this doesn't account for our WRs looking productive when Tyrod and even DeVito were in. People will talk about Saquan and AT being injured, but Saquan is no longer on the roster, and olinemen getting injured is a part of life.
Exactly right. I guess the most obvious example if Josh Allen’s improved play after BUFF traded for Diggs, but how much of that improvement was due to Diggs, or Allen getting more comfortable? It’s certainly a bit of both, but Allen was heading into year 3 when they got Diggs, Jones will be in year 6.
Sure, getting a true #1 WR would help Jones, but it would help Tommy Cutlets too. That doesn’t mean Jones is the answer at QB. Get the QB now if you can.
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In comment 16473248 LW_Giants said:
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With Jones no matter what. You’ve made that abundantly clear. How do you explain the uptick in our offense and receiving yards once Taylor and DeVito took over? The answer is they were willing to throw downfield and didn’t take a lifetime to process the field.
It can’t always be everyone but Daniel’s fault
I’ve already explained it. You’re being willfully dense. Barkley, AT, JMS and WanDale are getting back on the field changed the offense for the better. Hence why you saw better QB play and of course the schedule eased up quite a bit.
Someone is definitely being willfully dense here, but I assure you it isn’t me
Ok but if you think it’s simply that Taylor and Cutlets were just more willing to throw downfield and not factor in THE OL ACTUALLY IMPROVING with AT our ALL PRO LT returning and relegating Ezeudu and McKethan back to the bench and giving those guys more time to throw downfield with pass protection I don’t know what to tell you.
Your TV must be showing different things than mines.
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In comment 16473247 ajr2456 said:
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Playing at 3 of 5 offensive line positions too.
Every team has backups who play significant snaps. We had backups who should NOT have been backups last year. Josh Ezeudu and McKethan weren’t ready to play. Period.
One situation doesn’t equate to another.
There’s barely enough good starting offensive lineman in the league, you think other teams don’t have backups just as bad as ours?
The Texans DID NOT. Do the research… the backups you are referring to are guys who have played significant snaps IN THE NFL. Not an apples to apples comparisons at all.
Or a 2nd year Guard playing LT and out of position. Context matters man.
Texans have good depth on the OL. Omameh or Solder have no correlation to the Texans team.
I never said solely. Because it isn’t solely on the OL. I simply said Taylor and Cutlets were afforded TIME that DJ didn’t have much of in the games he played.
I’m NOT saying anything on the OL, but there was A STARK DIFFERENCE with the OL DJ played with and Taylor/Cutlets.
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You’re assuming that the better qb play from DeVito and Thomas was solely the result of better offensive line play. But the relationship is interdependent. The OL also looked better because those guys were more decisive than Jones and were getting the ball out faster and were taking chances beyond the sticks. Playing offensive line is infinitely harder when the other team knows the qb will not throw the ball downfield and will hold the ball longer than the average qb. It allows the more athletic defensive ends to wear out the offensive lineman who are blocking for an inordinate amount of time against guys that can pin their ears back because there’s no deep threat.
I never said solely. Because it isn’t solely on the OL. I simply said Taylor and Cutlets were afforded TIME that DJ didn’t have much of in the games he played.
I’m NOT saying anything on the OL, but there was A STARK DIFFERENCE with the OL DJ played with and Taylor/Cutlets.
Again, part of the reason the line looked better was the QB play. You’re assuming the inverse
It looks like Colin isn't going to be doing what used to be an annual "take questions from BBI posters" thread.
:(
he writes:
"Before talk more specifically about the Giants actual picks this year, there are a few draft basics we wanted to re-emphasize.
and goes over those "draft basics," but does not talk more specifically about the Giants actual picks this year
or at least I can't seem to find that part not withstanding his thoughts about that that are above these points.
Colin, thanks for your writing on this. I always appreciate your perspective. I was just left thinking there would be more, and I searched all over for the part that seemed to be missing.
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In comment 16473247 ajr2456 said:
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Playing at 3 of 5 offensive line positions too.
Every team has backups who play significant snaps. We had backups who should NOT have been backups last year. Josh Ezeudu and McKethan weren’t ready to play. Period.
One situation doesn’t equate to another.
There’s barely enough good starting offensive lineman in the league, you think other teams don’t have backups just as bad as ours?
Our GM is on record saying the OL play was embarassing and went out and signed a whole bunch in FA. Fired the coach and got a new more well respected coach. We signed Pugh off his couch last season and he was the best option to play Left Tackle for some games. We had our QBs get sacked a record number of times.
If the Giants thought Taylor was a better QB than DJ they would have done more to keep him. Taylor is a great backup, but he’s not an NFL starter.
More than one thing can be true, the Giants want to draft a QB and move on from Jones but realize the cost is too high this season to do that. Better QB play may not mean more wins, look at Eli’s career. You need talent around a QB too. Drafting any player is a big risk, QB probably has a higher bust rate but Evan Neal is a perfect example. If you really look, these QBs are not that highly rated. Sy has 2 at 87 and then 84 and 83 which the last 2 don’t equate to Pro Bowlers. In 2023, Sy had Young as an 83 and Stroud as an 82 and in 2022 he had QBs rated 80 or below which turned out to be correct. Then in 2021 he had Lawrence at a 95 and Fields at 83 and Wilson at 81. Only 1 QB the last 4 years has lived up to the draft status but this year all 4 are studs???
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Played significant NFL snaps too. Doesn’t mean they were good
Texans have good depth on the OL. Omameh or Solder have no correlation to the Texans team.
Or do they have a good QB that makes their backups look better? Strouds sack percentage was pretty similar to Jones’ from 2019-2022 when his oline was also supposedly bad. One produced, one didn’t.
Backup Olineman are backups for a reason. If they were able to play to the same level as the Texans starters, they’d be starters somewhere.
It’s also true that other teams lose starting offensive lineman and their QBs can still perform.
he writes:
"Before talk more specifically about the Giants actual picks this year, there are a few draft basics we wanted to re-emphasize.
and goes over those "draft basics," but does not talk more specifically about the Giants actual picks this year
or at least I can't seem to find that part not withstanding his thoughts about that that are above these points.
Colin, thanks for your writing on this. I always appreciate your perspective. I was just left thinking there would be more, and I searched all over for the part that seemed to be missing.
Since Colin covered the same "draft basics" points last year, there's a good chance that he just copied and pasted it for this year's article...but placed it near the end this time.
It's nonetheless fine to disagree with his position, but calling it "nonsense" is wrong and frankly insulting. The Giants could easily make a massive move up for Maye, but just because some people here want it to happen, doesn't mean that it will. Schoen has taken a hard line with players during contract negotiations. We saw that with Love last year, and Barkley and McKinney this year. Why wouldn't he do the same when negotiating with other teams? He makes his best offer to players and teams and then says "take it or leave it." In one of the "Giants Life" videos from the draft last year, Schoen in fact told another team that what they wanted "is too rich for us right now." It's entirely plausible that he made his final offer to NE and AZ, they rejected it, and so he's moved on to other options.
It’s also true that other teams lose starting offensive lineman and their QBs can still perform.
And conversely A BAD OL can make the QB’s job harder and make them look worse smh
It’s also true that other teams lose starting offensive lineman and their QBs can still perform.
Don’t take my word for it… compare DJ’s 2022 season to 2023 season!
then I can’t make you see it. That’s being willfully blind.
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In fact, we have been told by one usually reliable source that the Giants aren’t even talking seriously any more with either the Patriots or Cardinals. They have put their best offer on the table and would be willing to deal if those teams came way down, but don’t have any great expectation that they will. Of course, there are almost always surprises on draft day, plus it could all be just subterfuge, but the sense seems to be that the Giants have turned their attention to the other QBs in this year’s draft, as well their options at other positions.
It's nonetheless fine to disagree with his position, but calling it "nonsense" is wrong and frankly insulting. The Giants could easily make a massive move up for Maye, but just because some people here want it to happen, doesn't mean that it will. Schoen has taken a hard line with players during contract negotiations. We saw that with Love last year, and Barkley and McKinney this year. Why wouldn't he do the same when negotiating with other teams? He makes his best offer to players and teams and then says "take it or leave it." In one of the "Giants Life" videos from the draft last year, Schoen in fact told another team that what they wanted "is too rich for us right now." It's entirely plausible that he made his final offer to NE and AZ, they rejected it, and so he's moved on to other options.
Unless you wrote the piece, I'm not sure why you care that someone said it was "non-sense." Regardless, I think many of us fully expect this regime to not move up/take a qb and roll with Jones another year. That doesn't mean we have to instinctively back the plan. It's frustrating and so people are expressing the frustration.
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You’re arguing a point that nobody is making. Nobody has said the oline wasnt terrible. But it’s true Jones makes the olines job harder and makes them look worse.
It’s also true that other teams lose starting offensive lineman and their QBs can still perform.
Don’t take my word for it… compare DJ’s 2022 season to 2023 season!
That actually doesn’t help your case.
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In comment 16473318 ajr2456 said:
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You’re arguing a point that nobody is making. Nobody has said the oline wasnt terrible. But it’s true Jones makes the olines job harder and makes them look worse.
It’s also true that other teams lose starting offensive lineman and their QBs can still perform.
Don’t take my word for it… compare DJ’s 2022 season to 2023 season!
That actually doesn’t help your case.
It helps my case when I don’t have an agenda. I’m simply making a factual statement that DJ played better in 2022 than 2023… I think everyone on this board can agree with that.
However, if ur agenda is to discount DJ’s 2022 season and say it wasn’t shit then that’s another story. You can feel that way too.
The fact of the matter is the OL in 2023 played a huge part in derailing the season. And again don’t take my word for it. Look at the comments AND ACTIONS made my owner, GM, and coach. Fired OL coach. Didn’t keep. Bredeson, Peart, Glowinski, etc. and signed 2 new OL.
that a true #1 WR will enhance the performance of Daniel Jones. The comment is much more in the context of any QB the Giants may start in the future, including one drafted this year or next.
And for those who reject the vital importance of a #1 WR, GBN provides numerous examples, including past examples with Eli Manning.
In any event, while I agree with GBN on the importance of a #1 WR, my perspective has always been the LOS, as in no QB, WR nor RB will thrive with the sort of offensive line the Giants have trotted out there for the past several seasons.
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In comment 16473335 Four Aces said:
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In comment 16473318 ajr2456 said:
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You’re arguing a point that nobody is making. Nobody has said the oline wasnt terrible. But it’s true Jones makes the olines job harder and makes them look worse.
It’s also true that other teams lose starting offensive lineman and their QBs can still perform.
Don’t take my word for it… compare DJ’s 2022 season to 2023 season!
That actually doesn’t help your case.
It helps my case when I don’t have an agenda. I’m simply making a factual statement that DJ played better in 2022 than 2023… I think everyone on this board can agree with that.
However, if ur agenda is to discount DJ’s 2022 season and say it wasn’t shit then that’s another story. You can feel that way too.
The fact of the matter is the OL in 2023 played a huge part in derailing the season. And again don’t take my word for it. Look at the comments AND ACTIONS made my owner, GM, and coach. Fired OL coach. Didn’t keep. Bredeson, Peart, Glowinski, etc. and signed 2 new OL.
Statistically, Jones' 2022 season was not good.
And again don’t take my word for it. GM signed him to extension based on a simple understanding… 2nd year in a system, upgrades on offensive talent and we may have someting to build on here.
But guess what?! Waller flamed, Parris Campbell well is Parris Campbell and OL turned to shit so it never materialized and here we are.
I think you've gone too far with Daniel Jones, especially your comment, "Statistically, Jones' 2022 season was not good."
The guy threw for 3,200 yards, had a 67% completion rate, a 15 TD-to 5 INT ratio and a 92.5 QBR, not to mention how many yards he gained on the ground. And not to mention how many games they won in 2022 BECAUSE of Daniel Jones.
Bottom line: No one is saying Daniel Jones had a super star 2022 season, but to say it wasn't good is unsupportable.
I think you've gone too far with Daniel Jones, especially your comment, "Statistically, Jones' 2022 season was not good."
The guy threw for 3,200 yards, had a 67% completion rate, a 15 TD-to 5 INT ratio and a 92.5 QBR, not to mention how many yards he gained on the ground. And not to mention how many games they won in 2022 BECAUSE of Daniel Jones.
Bottom line: No one is saying Daniel Jones had a super star 2022 season, but to say it wasn't good is unsupportable.
Willful blindness… fuck facts!!! That’s the world we Iive in now
I think you've gone too far with Daniel Jones, especially your comment, "Statistically, Jones' 2022 season was not good."
The guy threw for 3,200 yards, had a 67% completion rate, a 15 TD-to 5 INT ratio and a 92.5 QBR, not to mention how many yards he gained on the ground. And not to mention how many games they won in 2022 BECAUSE of Daniel Jones.
Bottom line: No one is saying Daniel Jones had a super star 2022 season, but to say it wasn't good is unsupportable.
We'll have to agree to disagree M.S. He was 15th in the league in throwing yards, bottom 5 in the league in YPA, 21st in the league in TD's, 28th in the league in TD percentage, and 16th in the league in Passing Success Rate. If you consider that good, then I guess we just have a different definition of what a good QB is.
That's the messed up world we live in now. Man led us to the playoffs with scrubs at all WR positions and poor OL. I would rather build capital then give away draft picks for unproven and not really high ranked draftees. Build the team.
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I think you've gone too far with Daniel Jones, especially your comment, "Statistically, Jones' 2022 season was not good."
The guy threw for 3,200 yards, had a 67% completion rate, a 15 TD-to 5 INT ratio and a 92.5 QBR, not to mention how many yards he gained on the ground. And not to mention how many games they won in 2022 BECAUSE of Daniel Jones.
Bottom line: No one is saying Daniel Jones had a super star 2022 season, but to say it wasn't good is unsupportable.
We'll have to agree to disagree M.S. He was 15th in the league in throwing yards, bottom 5 in the league in YPA, 21st in the league in TD's, 28th in the league in TD percentage, and 16th in the league in Passing Success Rate. If you consider that good, then I guess we just have a different definition of what a good QB is.
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In comment 16473247 ajr2456 said:
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Playing at 3 of 5 offensive line positions too.
Every team has backups who play significant snaps. We had backups who should NOT have been backups last year. Josh Ezeudu and McKethan weren’t ready to play. Period.
One situation doesn’t equate to another.
There’s barely enough good starting offensive lineman in the league, you think other teams don’t have backups just as bad as ours?
No, I think most other teams weren't forced to deploy a historically bad offensive line.
That's a legitimate question but who were the WRs in 2022? Marcus Johnson? Collin Johnson? David Sills? The situation improved when Slayton finally saw the field and we acquired Hodgins.Richie James also played OK, but c'mon. Giants haven't had a true no. 1 receiver since OBJ. I'm not advocating one way or another on the DJ/QB debate. But I wonder how Kirk Cousins would have looked behind the Giants 2023 O-line without Jefferson and Addison.
"Critically, there are numerous examples of QBs succeeding once a true #1 WR has been secured."
What is the definition of "succeeding?" Has Minnesota "succeeded?" How about Miami? They have two all-time great WR's and who thinks they were/are title contenders? -- And the QB's were/are pretty good.
Thus GBN implies that Minny and Miami is in some form of a success. The point is the WR isn't going to carry you vs the great QB. You get the WR - then you are going to win many games vs mediocre teams but the real good teams will always beat you.