I had a thought this morning...
It seems like a portion of the fanbase/media don't believe that QB is a need because the trio of Jones, Lock, and DeVito are on the roster this year...despite the inconsistencies in their play.
Let's say Jones has another middling to sub-par season next year or suffers another injury and the team wants to cut him when his cap number is much more manageable in 2025.
Lock is only on a one-year deal and could easily sign elsewhere next year as an unrestricted free agent in 2025.
DeVito is set to become an exclusive rights free agent in 2025. So while he is not an unrestricted free agent, he is still not technically under contract in 2025.
I guess my point is are we underestimating the need of QB? Is there a chance that the team views QB as a much more pressing need than originally anticipated by fans due to the contract status of the 3 QB's on the roster?
Having a rookie, cost-controlled QB on the roster for 4 or 5 years seems like it might be a necessity.
If that happens, which it could, Giants won't be able to draft a QB in 2025 without a significant trade up.
That's why NOW it would be imperative to try like hell to get someone like Drake Maye, who could likely use a redshirt year anyway.
If they stand pat and take the receiver or let's say, a lesser QB prospect in round 2 or 3, the QB situation gets even murkier.
Scout, stick to your board, get your targets, and move along.
As Terps says, they'll only be hungrier next year.
Yup - Picking 6 in a historically strong QB draft.
AND - biggest team need by far....
If not now, when?
And it all doesn't matter if the OL doesn't block.
I hate forcing picks, but you simply can't keep treading water year after year hoping for the harmonic convergence of need and prospect.
Quote:
Daboll squeezes some wins out of the group and they go 7-10. They pick 12. And we'll hear the same crap about no QB being worth it. Go watch Schoen then spending $50M on Dak out of desperation.
As Terps says, they'll only be hungrier next year.
Yup - Picking 6 in a historically strong QB draft.
AND - biggest team need by far....
If not now, when?
If the choice at #6 is JJ, Penix, or Nix, you're picking QB?
Not me. Trading up isn't looking likely either.
What Gettleman did, WAS force a QB pick.
He promised Mara he would draft Eli’s successor.
He wanted Herbert. THATS who he scouted.
When he went back to school he was like Ralph Kramden from the Honneymooners stammering “what do I do now?”
So he goes to an Exhibition game (the Senior Bowl), watches DJ for like 5 min and declares himself full bloom in love.
Then he panics on draft day afraid someone else will take Jones before pick 17 and he overdrafts him at 6.
THATS forcing a WB pick!
Anyone here think that has been Schoen’s procedure.
He wants a QB. Whether that happens or not is only partially in his control.
I really don't want to trade down, but if we whiff on the "big 4" QBs, or perhaps just don't like the one that falls, we need to have a serious discussion about whether or not trading down and trying to acquire a 2025 #1 is the best long term move.
If we don't get a QB this year, there needs to be a plan in place to get one in 2025 when we can get out of Jones' contract.
Fully agree. If you can't get one of the top 4 guys this draft, trade down and load up to try and move up next year for a QB.
The problem isn't going magically solve itself, and I don't think we'll be bad enough next year to be in the top 5.
Quote:
you're not going to win a Super Bowl. So since the goal every year should be to win the Super Bowl, we need a QB rather badly.
I really don't want to trade down, but if we whiff on the "big 4" QBs, or perhaps just don't like the one that falls, we need to have a serious discussion about whether or not trading down and trying to acquire a 2025 #1 is the best long term move.
If we don't get a QB this year, there needs to be a plan in place to get one in 2025 when we can get out of Jones' contract.
Fully agree. If you can't get one of the top 4 guys this draft, trade down and load up to try and move up next year for a QB.
The problem isn't going magically solve itself, and I don't think we'll be bad enough next year to be in the top 5.
So in 2025 you are fine forcing the QB pick you wouldn't force in 2024?
Obviously, with the draft its always a BPA vs. Need "tug of war".
In this case, you have a desperate need. That's not debatable. You also have uncommonly great supply in the form of 4 terrific prospects. That may even be 5 depending on the knees (medical reports, and lefty-ness concerns about Pennix -- meaning their best player Andrew Thomas becomes less important to an extent). Lastly, if not RD1 with this premium pick, the next QB draft looks dicey at best.
In short, it would be downright irresponsible to not secure one of these QBs in RD1.
Skim the thread Mike. Because that's precisely what a sizable portion of the fan base is advocating for. If we don't draft a QB in round 1, they will revolt. Period. It doesn't matter to them if the team wasn't able to land one who they have a conviction for. Because the mocks say there could be 6 --that's good enough for them, and if the team doesn't deliver on that, they will declare them incompetent. Well you aren't going to get me to sign up for that. Sorry.
As Terps says, they'll only be hungrier next year.
Then they trade 2026 picks to go get Carson Beck or (god forbid) Riley Leonard. No QB this year and we are fucked…
Quote:
In comment 16473297 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
you're not going to win a Super Bowl. So since the goal every year should be to win the Super Bowl, we need a QB rather badly.
I really don't want to trade down, but if we whiff on the "big 4" QBs, or perhaps just don't like the one that falls, we need to have a serious discussion about whether or not trading down and trying to acquire a 2025 #1 is the best long term move.
If we don't get a QB this year, there needs to be a plan in place to get one in 2025 when we can get out of Jones' contract.
Fully agree. If you can't get one of the top 4 guys this draft, trade down and load up to try and move up next year for a QB.
The problem isn't going magically solve itself, and I don't think we'll be bad enough next year to be in the top 5.
So in 2025 you are fine forcing the QB pick you wouldn't force in 2024?
Two points: (1) i'm on record saying I would do whatever it takes to get a QB this year. I think this class is insanely talented; (2) for 2025, the idea would be to move up to the top 3 of the draft so you don't have to "force" the pick.
I disagree...I think they need another QB on the roster regardless of the round, even though my preference is the 1st round if it attainable.
2) You wait for the guy you love. If he isn't there - you build the rest of the team and wait. Maybe you take a flyer on a mid round guy this year but that isn't the long term plan.
What I don't necessarily follow is the "Just get the guy in 2025!" Who says "the guy" is even in the draft in 2025? Or 2026?
You can't suggest not forcing a pick in 2024, but then also say "get to the top of the draft in 2025 and get your guy." That is also forcing the pick because you are pre-deciding that a franchise QB will be there.
2) You wait for the guy you love. If he isn't there - you build the rest of the team and wait. Maybe you take a flyer on a mid round guy this year but that isn't the long term plan.
What I don't necessarily follow is the "Just get the guy in 2025!" Who says "the guy" is even in the draft in 2025? Or 2026?
You can't suggest not forcing a pick in 2024, but then also say "get to the top of the draft in 2025 and get your guy." That is also forcing the pick because you are pre-deciding that a franchise QB will be there.
I agree, this is the draft to move up and get your guy. Don't punt.
Quote:
in the first round. Plenty of the 6 QBs who end up likely getting picked in the first round this year will be JAGs or worse, but that is not what teams are aiming for. If they think a guy's ceiling is "Can win 10 games with a really good team around him" he is going to be picked in later rounds.
Skim the thread Mike. Because that's precisely what a sizable portion of the fan base is advocating for. If we don't draft a QB in round 1, they will revolt. Period. It doesn't matter to them if the team wasn't able to land one who they have a conviction for. Because the mocks say there could be 6 --that's good enough for them, and if the team doesn't deliver on that, they will declare them incompetent. Well you aren't going to get me to sign up for that. Sorry.
I agree. BBI does not speak for the GIANT fanbase.
Just look at the QBs. I have no doubt that in 2-3 years when one of these QBs or WRs picked in the top 10 flames out, someone will post "But BBI told me they were a can't miss prospect!"
Those posts should get an immediate one year ban for stupidity polution.
The 5 that won multiple Brady, EManning, PManning, Roethlesberger & Mahomes
The 5 that won 1 - Rodgers, Brees, Foles, Wilson and Stafford
Only 3 of the 10 were picked in the top 5. 4 were not 1st rounders.
No team that traded up into the top 5 to get a qb has ever won a Super Bowl.
The 5 that won multiple Brady, EManning, PManning, Roethlesberger & Mahomes
The 5 that won 1 - Rodgers, Brees, Foles, Wilson and Stafford
Only 3 of the 10 were picked in the top 5. 4 were not 1st rounders.
No team that traded up into the top 5 to get a qb has ever won a Super Bowl.
You're cheating a little here.
Quote:
Over the last 20 years only 10 QBs have won the Super Bowl. 5 of those won multiple and 5 won 1.
The 5 that won multiple Brady, EManning, PManning, Roethlesberger & Mahomes
The 5 that won 1 - Rodgers, Brees, Foles, Wilson and Stafford
Only 3 of the 10 were picked in the top 5. 4 were not 1st rounders.
No team that traded up into the top 5 to get a qb has ever won a Super Bowl.
You're cheating a little here.
Eli was officially drafted by the Chargers and Phillips was drafted by the Giants. Accorsi took a little risk of taking Phillips to still have the ability to trade for Eli, but the deal wasnt finalized till after the picks. The Giants probably would have drafted Roethlesberger if that was the case.
What Gettleman did, WAS force a QB pick.
He promised Mara he would draft Eli’s successor.
He wanted Herbert. THATS who he scouted.
When he went back to school he was like Ralph Kramden from the Honneymooners stammering “what do I do now?”
So he goes to an Exhibition game (the Senior Bowl), watches DJ for like 5 min and declares himself full bloom in love.
Then he panics on draft day afraid someone else will take Jones before pick 17 and he overdrafts him at 6.
THATS forcing a WB pick!
Anyone here think that has been Schoen’s procedure.
He wants a QB. Whether that happens or not is only partially in his control.
Excellent post. Schoen has done his homework on these QB's. If he selects Maye or JJM @3,4,5or 6, I will be happy with the selection.
And as for JJM, I want people to understand that he has been highly touted since his high school days. 5 star recruit, winning a state championship, played at IMG, Big 10 football is viable feeder to NFL, 27-1 as a starter, national championship. Very good athlete. Strong arm.
These are facts. If NYG thinks that he is the guy, after scouting, meetings, dinners, the combine, then they should try to move up to 4 if they can.
Foles played very well, there is no guarantee Philly wins with Wentz. The Giants won with Hostetler.
Quote:
Now do a Wentz/Foles Super Bowl season for the Eagles.
Foles played very well, there is no guarantee Philly wins with Wentz. The Giants won with Hostetler.
SURE - I agree...but the Eagles most likely don't get there without Wentz playing the majority of the season like the league MVP.
Quote:
In comment 16473417 LW_Giants said:
Quote:
In comment 16473297 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
you're not going to win a Super Bowl. So since the goal every year should be to win the Super Bowl, we need a QB rather badly.
I really don't want to trade down, but if we whiff on the "big 4" QBs, or perhaps just don't like the one that falls, we need to have a serious discussion about whether or not trading down and trying to acquire a 2025 #1 is the best long term move.
If we don't get a QB this year, there needs to be a plan in place to get one in 2025 when we can get out of Jones' contract.
Fully agree. If you can't get one of the top 4 guys this draft, trade down and load up to try and move up next year for a QB.
The problem isn't going magically solve itself, and I don't think we'll be bad enough next year to be in the top 5.
So in 2025 you are fine forcing the QB pick you wouldn't force in 2024?
Two points: (1) i'm on record saying I would do whatever it takes to get a QB this year. I think this class is insanely talented; (2) for 2025, the idea would be to move up to the top 3 of the draft so you don't have to "force" the pick.
Beat me to it. My comment about “having a plan in place, and looking for an extra 2025 1st” is precisely so we don’t have to force a pick. There will be QB’s worth drafting next year, just likely not 4, so we need ammo.
It's all about likelihoods. I think it's likely that most of the guys at the top of this draft are better than both Jones and Lock.
But nothing is for sure.
They've been doing your strategy for 6 years. How's it working?
This team needs a QB.
Loading up for 2025 is just a different gamble.
Loading up for 2025 is just a different gamble.
A "no QB in 2024" scenario very possibly leads to a FA route where Jones's cost is transferred to one of Goff, Prescott, or Russell Wilson.
I want to draft a quarterback every year, because I feel "wait for the right guy" is just another way of saying "full bloom love".
In the Rickey thread he's apparently saying the Giants are in love with Maye. I don't think that's a good thing.
The Giants' record in those 30 seasons? 222-242.
Number of seasons over .500? 12
Number of double digit win seasons? 8
Number of 13+ win seasons? 0
These last three decades get smoothed over by the two titles, neither of which was won by a great team. But I think it's clear there's a problem in the organizational methodology, and some aspect of that problem is self-scouting and myopia (full-bloom love).
The Giants' record in those 30 seasons? 222-242.
Number of seasons over .500? 12
Number of double digit win seasons? 8
Number of 13+ win seasons? 0
These last three decades get smoothed over by the two titles, neither of which was won by a great team. But I think it's clear there's a problem in the organizational methodology, and some aspect of that problem is self-scouting and myopia (full-bloom love).
I think this is where you start to lose some posters (I've recently been in agreement with your approach to the Giants and their future).
However, what do the above stats look like for the other 31 teams, including championships? Just curious.
If that fails, my preference would be #2 on your list, draft the best talent available and continue to work on the foundation. A blue chip WR at #6 and another potential starter at a premium position could be had at #47, and even at #70. Lock is the vet hedge for 2024.
It figures to make 2024 a challenge to sit through unless some of their draft picks start to raise their level of play. But, I'd rather hold 'em and not pick a QB with too many warts at #6.
No other position on the field is "find a guy who wins a Superbowl or don't take him." You draft WRs who improve your WR group. Same with CB, T, etc. Sometimes you just need one who can be solid.
If the next John Elway isn't in this draft, that's ok. That doesn't mean you can't take the next Kirk Cousins in the 2nd round. But what that requires is the ability to move on from that guy when a better one is available, even if the guy on the roster just had a good year and lead you to the playoffs.
You are building a team that can win, not a support system for the Chosen One at QB.
JJ, and the two nix < blue chip WRs for me.
Kenny Pickett - Pittsburgh intelligently moved on after two years
CJ Stroud - Houston should already be thinking about what his second contract will look like
If the Giants draft a QB this year I don't want the position bequeathed to him for the next four years. Start him from day 1 and see if he sinks or swims.
Is this the best way to develop a quarterback? Probably not. But the structure of the league is what it is.
JJ, and the two nix < blue chip WRs for me.
Agree. The potential upside still has to align with where you draft them. A guy you spend a first round pick on should be a guy you think can develop into a top tier QB. But if you don't have a QB and can't get that top tier prospect, you need to have a plan.
Using this year as an example, if no QB they love is available in the first round, grab Nix if he somehow slides to #47 (or within reasonable trade-up range). Take a Rattler, Pratt or Milton in Rd 3 or 4. Try to get better in some way.
What you can't do is wait 5-6 years to decide what you have like the Giants did with Jones. The QB spot should have competition every year until everyone knows you have your guy.
Kenny Pickett - Pittsburgh intelligently moved on after two years
Given the bust rate for round 1 QBs, I wouldn’t say that landing a QB at #6 with Cousins career would be a mistake. If he finishes his current contract, that’s a 15 year career with 13.5 years as starter.
What traits are you looking for that guarantee a QB can win a title? If you would have picked Eli in round 1 but not Cousins (or Rivers), what about Eli at Ole Miss told you that he'd twice be part of a team that got hot at the right time?
What about Josh Allen? Lamar? Herbert? Burrow? Can they win Super Bowls? All of them? Some of them? Which ones? Brock Purdy and Jalen Hurts came as close or closer than all of them. Why weren't they first round picks?
What is the trait or traits that says Caleb Williams can win a Super Bowl but Bo Nix can't? I personally don't know, but I am pretty confident Daniel Jones can't win a Super Bowl. That much I would say.
The Giants haven't been taking any swings.