May be skewed by the chance he goes 3rd, 4th or 5th. Can one assume based on this, that if he’s on the board at 6, his odds would be higher than Nabers and Odunze?
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
I'd much rather the Giants draft Alt or one of the DL than the WR
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
You may need to accept QB doesn't arrive early next Thursday night.
Or, I might need to accept a QB reach.
Either way, I'd prefer they not push hard behind a win-now perspective in 2024, because it often backfires eg 2023, each season under DG, etc. If that means no QB now and they win 6 games, so be it. They'll find their QB at the right time.
RE: I'd much rather the Giants draft Alt or one of the DL than the WR
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
You may need to accept QB doesn't arrive early next Thursday night.
Or, I might need to accept a QB reach.
Either way, I'd prefer they not push hard behind a win-now perspective in 2024, because it often backfires eg 2023, each season under DG, etc. If that means no QB now and they win 6 games, so be it. They'll find their QB at the right time.
See I think the WR is the win now move.
RE: RE: RE: Good illustration of what I mean by value
move than continuing to build out the O-Line. Wide receivers don't have lasting power like offensive lineman do, and they tend to be divas that get frustrated when they aren't getting the ball enough. Insert Daniel Jones and you're going to have an unhappy receiver.
If they are not going to trade up for a QB, I'd prefer they stick to d or o line.
RE: JonC - I think this needs to be operationally defined
They'll find him when they find him. Maybe it's Penix next weekend, maybe it's Ewers or other a year from now. Dunno, I'd say good luck defining it when you're one of thirty-two teams in the pursuit of extremely limited resources. Right now, they have the 2024 draft in front of them and that's it.
I won't be shocked if they skip the QBs and then tell us we don't want to pass over blue chip impact talent for a QB we don't believe will bring championships in return.
They'll find him when they find him. Maybe it's Penix next weekend, maybe it's Ewers or other a year from now. Dunno, I'd say good luck defining it when you're one of thirty-two teams in the pursuit of extremely limited resources. Right now, they have the 2024 draft in front of them and that's it.
I won't be shocked if they skip the QBs and then tell us we don't want to pass over blue chip impact talent for a QB we don't believe will bring championships in return.
I think you're probably going to end up being right.
Schoen said this team is not a player or two away. I don't think any player they draft on Thursday can possibly indicate any type of "win now" mindset.
The current QB room:
-Jones (coming off an ACL and not worth his salary)
-Lock (one year deal)
-DeVito (benched in a lost season)
This draft is projected to have four top 10 QBs and up to six first round QBs.
I can't accept not coming away with one of the six QBs given the NYG QB situation. If that means Schoen needs to trade down and then trade back up for Penix/Nix I'm fine with that. Imo you have to come away with someone.
It's not about Jones anymore though. They're done with him I believe. Think about this - are the Cardinals and Chargers flying all over the country studying the QBs? Nope.
there'd be a reason not to take a QB every single offseason. The giants are unlikely to be bad enough to pick top 3 anytime soon, so is the solution to just keep waiting until we do? At some point you have to make your move, can't sit there every year hoping a top QB falls to you and then say "oh well, maybe next year" when they don't. You have to take chances.
and so an alpha WR is wasted on this team. If they can't get one of the top 3 find a way to get back into the first and take Penix. And if we have to dip in again next draft, so be it.
The Giants have neglected the most important position in sports.
is they need a new QB. No one (well almost no one) is debating that.
How they go about it, it the big question.
Impact players are how you win. Not just filling holes. That's the way to mediocrity.
These 3 WRs have the ability to change how defenses play us.
We complain, all the time, who are the players that the other team has to worry about.
If you have a chance get one. Now, the best scenario, is that difference maker IS a QB.
IF they've determined that there is only one QB in this draft that fits that description (likely Maye), and you can't get him (likely), then take the WR.
The only other viable option is, to trade down (slightly), take another QB you like (Penix) and maneuver to get a WR who has a chance to be a differnce maker. The combo then lifts your franchise.
there'd be a reason not to take a QB every single offseason. The giants are unlikely to be bad enough to pick top 3 anytime soon, so is the solution to just keep waiting until we do? At some point you have to make your move, can't sit there every year hoping a top QB falls to you and then say "oh well, maybe next year" when they don't. You have to take chances.
I'm not saying don't take chances, but you gotta believe in a QB. I don't believe in JJ, Penix, Nix. But, the Giants might. You might. Terps does.
I've got this season and next to find the Jones replacement. Eric said this too yesterday on the Scouts Honor podcast.
So let's say they don't come out of this draft with a QB. Forget for a moment the morbidity of a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room in 2024...
Schoen will be impelled to find a starting QB between March and April 2025. For someone who is on record saying he doesn't want to shop hungry, that's not a good situation.
If you assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025, why would they bypass an opportunity to do it? Aren't two last chances better than one?
And if you don't assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025 is the plan to just stick with Jones, conceivably, through the entirety of his contact and possibly beyond? Is he going to get a full 9-10 year career here, maybe?
I've got this season and next to find the Jones replacement. Eric said this too yesterday on the Scouts Honor podcast.
So let's say they don't come out of this draft with a QB. Forget for a moment the morbidity of a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room in 2024...
Schoen will be impelled to find a starting QB between March and April 2025. For someone who is on record saying he doesn't want to shop hungry, that's not a good situation.
If you assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025, why would they bypass an opportunity to do it? Aren't two last chances better than one?
And if you don't assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025 is the plan to just stick with Jones, conceivably, through the entirety of his contact and possibly beyond? Is he going to get a full 9-10 year career here, maybe?
I'm really struggling with this.
You make good point. I think they'll draft either Maye or McCarthy (I'd be pleasantly surprised if they took a bold chance on Penix). Their actions tell me they are doing that.
But, if they don't. I don't think they'll look to the draft. I think we'd enter a scenario where there is a decent chance they pay for a veteran QB like Prescott or Goff. I'd much prefer taking a chance on one of the cheap prospects this year.
I see the Giants at around 6-11/7-10 next year. Probably picking around 7-12. It's the same exact scenario as this year. They may just look to solve QB in March of 2025 if that's the case.
that trying to solve our QB issue through free agency.
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
that trying to solve our QB issue through free agency.
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
A 2025 Ben Johnson/Jared Goff reunion in East Rutherford?
that trying to solve our QB issue through free agency.
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
I agree. But, if you keep kicking the can down the road the desperation will just increase. This is the year to draft a QB.
RE: RE: RE: I'd much rather the Giants draft Alt or one of the DL than the WR
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
The hill I'm dying on is wanting the Giants to actually build a decent team.
Drafting a WR, for this team, doesn't make sense to me.
No, it doesn't make sense to YOU(and some others). WR is an important piece - it is a premium position. It is absolutely a need. It may not be your cup of tea and that is your personal preference. 90% would prefer a QB if available, some ALT and some WR.
Personally, I'd trade back if possible then take Penix(and the extra picks) if top 4 are gone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd much rather the Giants draft Alt or one of the DL than the WR
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
The hill I'm dying on is wanting the Giants to actually build a decent team.
Drafting a WR, for this team, doesn't make sense to me.
No, it doesn't make sense to YOU(and some others). WR is an important piece - it is a premium position. It is absolutely a need. It may not be your cup of tea and that is your personal preference. 90% would prefer a QB if available, some ALT and some WR.
Personally, I'd trade back if possible then take Penix(and the extra picks) if top 4 are gone.
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
You may need to accept QB doesn't arrive early next Thursday night.
Or, I might need to accept a QB reach.
They'll find their QB at the right time.
and it really doesn't matter if they get their QB this year or next. IMO, no QB in this draft is worth giving up the farm to get. I would like to see them play the draft as it comes to them, and only move for the right deal.
that trying to solve our QB issue through free agency.
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
I agree. But, if you keep kicking the can down the road the desperation will just increase. This is the year to draft a QB.
+1.
Those that turn the argument into "which player is overall better" in re to WR vs QB more than likely aren't taking Positional Value into account as much as they should.
The reason why the NFL pays more for QB's than WR's is because they are more important. So what a WR is "better" - just as a "DB" could be better or a "DT." But they can NOT impact the game like a QB.
So, if you could get a QB that can mesh the Offensive pieces to one good unit vs a team that has perennial All-PRo WR but an inconsistent QB in which big games the All-Pro is not able to perform to his normal capabilities, you take the QB.
Praying for a QB is not an answer. It's a cop out. However, if you really don't like the QB's (which I believe is the point of some for wanting to get the WR), then getting stud WR is a an okay fallback.
because the value wasn't right for a developmental QB?
It's actually quite hard to have a good QB prospect available and of the "right value." Unless you're picking #1 or #2, it mostly takes conviction in your scouting and balls. Maybe that's Penix or maybe it's not, but it matters very little what the public thinks in April 2024.
RE: How many teams regret passing on Mahomes or Allen
because the value wasn't right for a developmental QB?
It's actually quite hard to have a good QB prospect available and of the "right value." Unless you're picking #1 or #2, it mostly takes conviction in your scouting and balls. Maybe that's Penix or maybe it's not, but it matters very little what the public thinks in April 2024.
yes! If you believe you have a superstar QB no price is too high. It's only 2 or 3 firsts because it is unknown how great these guys are going to be. If Mahomes was on the market the bidding would *start* at 5 first round picks.
RE: RE: RE: JonC - I think this needs to be operationally defined
They'll find him when they find him. Maybe it's Penix next weekend, maybe it's Ewers or other a year from now. Dunno, I'd say good luck defining it when you're one of thirty-two teams in the pursuit of extremely limited resources. Right now, they have the 2024 draft in front of them and that's it.
I won't be shocked if they skip the QBs and then tell us we don't want to pass over blue chip impact talent for a QB we don't believe will bring championships in return.
I think you're probably going to end up being right.
You both could be right and we get Odunze plus Penix. Penix's draft position is super inflated here. I'd say he's more likely to slide into the late 1st/early 2nd than going at in the teens.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd much rather the Giants draft Alt or one of the DL than the WR
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
The hill I'm dying on is wanting the Giants to actually build a decent team.
Drafting a WR, for this team, doesn't make sense to me.
No, it doesn't make sense to YOU(and some others). WR is an important piece - it is a premium position. It is absolutely a need. It may not be your cup of tea and that is your personal preference. 90% would prefer a QB if available, some ALT and some WR.
Personally, I'd trade back if possible then take Penix(and the extra picks) if top 4 are gone.
How is WR a “premium” position? Because PFF told you so?
Funny how the best teams in the league have mediocre talent at this so called “premium” position.
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
Quote:
using Penix at #6 as an example.
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
You may need to accept QB doesn't arrive early next Thursday night.
Or, I might need to accept a QB reach.
Either way, I'd prefer they not push hard behind a win-now perspective in 2024, because it often backfires eg 2023, each season under DG, etc. If that means no QB now and they win 6 games, so be it. They'll find their QB at the right time.
Ugh. no way Jose.
Quote:
In comment 16475360 JonC said:
Quote:
using Penix at #6 as an example.
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
You may need to accept QB doesn't arrive early next Thursday night.
Or, I might need to accept a QB reach.
Either way, I'd prefer they not push hard behind a win-now perspective in 2024, because it often backfires eg 2023, each season under DG, etc. If that means no QB now and they win 6 games, so be it. They'll find their QB at the right time.
See I think the WR is the win now move.
I think this sentiment likely mirrors how the Giants front office sees it.
"If a QB is meant to be, he will come to us. Until then, we always have Daniel. Let us get him weapons."
Quote:
.
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
The hill I'm dying on is wanting the Giants to actually build a decent team.
Drafting a WR, for this team, doesn't make sense to me.
When is that? What does that look like?
Ultimately, I think one of the blue chip WRs will be a better NFL player than the 2nd tier of QBs. NYG could wind up at the same conclusion.
I'd be concerned reaching for 2nd tier QB at #6 just like they did for Jones, forcing a QB and trying to move up the win timeline. Time will tell.
If they are not going to trade up for a QB, I'd prefer they stick to d or o line.
When is that? What does that look like?
They'll find him when they find him. Maybe it's Penix next weekend, maybe it's Ewers or other a year from now. Dunno, I'd say good luck defining it when you're one of thirty-two teams in the pursuit of extremely limited resources. Right now, they have the 2024 draft in front of them and that's it.
I won't be shocked if they skip the QBs and then tell us we don't want to pass over blue chip impact talent for a QB we don't believe will bring championships in return.
Quote:
"They'll find their QB at the right time."
When is that? What does that look like?
They'll find him when they find him. Maybe it's Penix next weekend, maybe it's Ewers or other a year from now. Dunno, I'd say good luck defining it when you're one of thirty-two teams in the pursuit of extremely limited resources. Right now, they have the 2024 draft in front of them and that's it.
I won't be shocked if they skip the QBs and then tell us we don't want to pass over blue chip impact talent for a QB we don't believe will bring championships in return.
I think you're probably going to end up being right.
-Jones (coming off an ACL and not worth his salary)
-Lock (one year deal)
-DeVito (benched in a lost season)
This draft is projected to have four top 10 QBs and up to six first round QBs.
I can't accept not coming away with one of the six QBs given the NYG QB situation. If that means Schoen needs to trade down and then trade back up for Penix/Nix I'm fine with that. Imo you have to come away with someone.
It's not about Jones anymore though. They're done with him I believe. Think about this - are the Cardinals and Chargers flying all over the country studying the QBs? Nope.
The Giants have neglected the most important position in sports.
How they go about it, it the big question.
Impact players are how you win. Not just filling holes. That's the way to mediocrity.
These 3 WRs have the ability to change how defenses play us.
We complain, all the time, who are the players that the other team has to worry about.
If you have a chance get one. Now, the best scenario, is that difference maker IS a QB.
IF they've determined that there is only one QB in this draft that fits that description (likely Maye), and you can't get him (likely), then take the WR.
The only other viable option is, to trade down (slightly), take another QB you like (Penix) and maneuver to get a WR who has a chance to be a differnce maker. The combo then lifts your franchise.
I'm not saying don't take chances, but you gotta believe in a QB. I don't believe in JJ, Penix, Nix. But, the Giants might. You might. Terps does.
So let's say they don't come out of this draft with a QB. Forget for a moment the morbidity of a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room in 2024...
Schoen will be impelled to find a starting QB between March and April 2025. For someone who is on record saying he doesn't want to shop hungry, that's not a good situation.
If you assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025, why would they bypass an opportunity to do it? Aren't two last chances better than one?
And if you don't assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025 is the plan to just stick with Jones, conceivably, through the entirety of his contact and possibly beyond? Is he going to get a full 9-10 year career here, maybe?
I'm really struggling with this.
So let's say they don't come out of this draft with a QB. Forget for a moment the morbidity of a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room in 2024...
Schoen will be impelled to find a starting QB between March and April 2025. For someone who is on record saying he doesn't want to shop hungry, that's not a good situation.
If you assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025, why would they bypass an opportunity to do it? Aren't two last chances better than one?
And if you don't assume they have to find a starting QB between now and May 2025 is the plan to just stick with Jones, conceivably, through the entirety of his contact and possibly beyond? Is he going to get a full 9-10 year career here, maybe?
I'm really struggling with this.
You make good point. I think they'll draft either Maye or McCarthy (I'd be pleasantly surprised if they took a bold chance on Penix). Their actions tell me they are doing that.
But, if they don't. I don't think they'll look to the draft. I think we'd enter a scenario where there is a decent chance they pay for a veteran QB like Prescott or Goff. I'd much prefer taking a chance on one of the cheap prospects this year.
I see the Giants at around 6-11/7-10 next year. Probably picking around 7-12. It's the same exact scenario as this year. They may just look to solve QB in March of 2025 if that's the case.
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
A 2025 Ben Johnson/Jared Goff reunion in East Rutherford?
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
I agree. But, if you keep kicking the can down the road the desperation will just increase. This is the year to draft a QB.
Quote:
In comment 16475389 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
The hill I'm dying on is wanting the Giants to actually build a decent team.
Drafting a WR, for this team, doesn't make sense to me.
No, it doesn't make sense to YOU(and some others). WR is an important piece - it is a premium position. It is absolutely a need. It may not be your cup of tea and that is your personal preference. 90% would prefer a QB if available, some ALT and some WR.
Personally, I'd trade back if possible then take Penix(and the extra picks) if top 4 are gone.
Quote:
In comment 16475392 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16475389 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
The hill I'm dying on is wanting the Giants to actually build a decent team.
Drafting a WR, for this team, doesn't make sense to me.
No, it doesn't make sense to YOU(and some others). WR is an important piece - it is a premium position. It is absolutely a need. It may not be your cup of tea and that is your personal preference. 90% would prefer a QB if available, some ALT and some WR.
Personally, I'd trade back if possible then take Penix(and the extra picks) if top 4 are gone.
You don't read too well.
I'd be blown away if they drafted Penix at any point.
Quote:
from a betting perspective, I might put a very small amount on Penix. It's not completely inconceivable they go that route, right?
I'd be blown away if they drafted Penix at any point.
Thanks, you probably just saved me like $1 or maybe even $2.
Quote:
In comment 16475360 JonC said:
Quote:
using Penix at #6 as an example.
From a "winning the draft" perspective I agree. But from a team building perspective, I don't think Odunze or Nabers help this team all that much. A coat of paint on a car with no engine.
You may need to accept QB doesn't arrive early next Thursday night.
Or, I might need to accept a QB reach.
They'll find their QB at the right time.
There is the illusion.
I don’t buy it.
Mara ain't passing up that opportunity.
Mara ain't passing up that opportunity.
And hopefully Vrabel. But I don't thinks Daboll has any trouble returning.
Quote:
that trying to solve our QB issue through free agency.
Which average player do you want to pay an above average salary while they try to figure out how much longer they want to keep doing this?
Schoen was brought in to a team that had a big question mark at QB. He brought with him a QB guru as coach. If he is 5 years into his tenure trying still trying to figure out the QB position, we probably didn't hire the right guy.
I agree. But, if you keep kicking the can down the road the desperation will just increase. This is the year to draft a QB.
+1.
Those that turn the argument into "which player is overall better" in re to WR vs QB more than likely aren't taking Positional Value into account as much as they should.
The reason why the NFL pays more for QB's than WR's is because they are more important. So what a WR is "better" - just as a "DB" could be better or a "DT." But they can NOT impact the game like a QB.
So, if you could get a QB that can mesh the Offensive pieces to one good unit vs a team that has perennial All-PRo WR but an inconsistent QB in which big games the All-Pro is not able to perform to his normal capabilities, you take the QB.
Praying for a QB is not an answer. It's a cop out. However, if you really don't like the QB's (which I believe is the point of some for wanting to get the WR), then getting stud WR is a an okay fallback.
It's actually quite hard to have a good QB prospect available and of the "right value." Unless you're picking #1 or #2, it mostly takes conviction in your scouting and balls. Maybe that's Penix or maybe it's not, but it matters very little what the public thinks in April 2024.
It's actually quite hard to have a good QB prospect available and of the "right value." Unless you're picking #1 or #2, it mostly takes conviction in your scouting and balls. Maybe that's Penix or maybe it's not, but it matters very little what the public thinks in April 2024.
yes! If you believe you have a superstar QB no price is too high. It's only 2 or 3 firsts because it is unknown how great these guys are going to be. If Mahomes was on the market the bidding would *start* at 5 first round picks.
Quote:
In comment 16475412 Go Terps said:
Quote:
"They'll find their QB at the right time."
When is that? What does that look like?
They'll find him when they find him. Maybe it's Penix next weekend, maybe it's Ewers or other a year from now. Dunno, I'd say good luck defining it when you're one of thirty-two teams in the pursuit of extremely limited resources. Right now, they have the 2024 draft in front of them and that's it.
I won't be shocked if they skip the QBs and then tell us we don't want to pass over blue chip impact talent for a QB we don't believe will bring championships in return.
I think you're probably going to end up being right.
You both could be right and we get Odunze plus Penix. Penix's draft position is super inflated here. I'd say he's more likely to slide into the late 1st/early 2nd than going at in the teens.
Quote:
In comment 16475392 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16475389 Go Terps said:
Quote:
.
You'd prefer to take a lesser player because you have a hill to die on.
The hill I'm dying on is wanting the Giants to actually build a decent team.
Drafting a WR, for this team, doesn't make sense to me.
No, it doesn't make sense to YOU(and some others). WR is an important piece - it is a premium position. It is absolutely a need. It may not be your cup of tea and that is your personal preference. 90% would prefer a QB if available, some ALT and some WR.
Personally, I'd trade back if possible then take Penix(and the extra picks) if top 4 are gone.
How is WR a “premium” position? Because PFF told you so?
Funny how the best teams in the league have mediocre talent at this so called “premium” position.