says the issue is the Giants probably won't want to mortgage next year's draft too.
Now that is silly. If they like him, want him and think he is a franchise QB, then the price is the price. If indifferent, then ok, then don't mortgage the future.
and Minn really wants Maye, then this is easy. Trade with AZ, take JJM, Minn goes up to 5, to take Maye, and AZ get MHJ at 6 rather than at 4. The price for the move up should be maybe a 3 and next year's 2.
and Minn really wants Maye, then this is easy. Trade with AZ, take JJM, Minn goes up to 5, to take Maye, and AZ get MHJ at 6 rather than at 4. The price for the move up should be maybe a 3 and next year's 2.
What do you have the Patriots doing in this scenario?
and will be good with pretty much most of the possible outcomes. But, I will say up front, I don't like the idea of trading up for McCarthy. I guess if they love him and it is looking like he could be gone, then so be it. I would rather take my chances and see who is left at 6. If all 4 QBs are gone, I'd take Odunze. If Maye or McCarthy are there, I'd be behind whomever they love, and if only one is there, you take him and go WR in round 2.
it all comes down to Schoen and Daboll's conviction on Maye or McCarthy.
If they love one of them, I'm pretty sure the Giants have enough draft capital to move up and outbid teams like Min and Denv.
Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
I’m also fine with trade up next yrs draft pick.
2005 Giants had only 4 picks after Manning trade and got 3 decent players, Webster, Tuck, Jacobs.
I believe if for some reason the Giants didn't trade up, Daboll and Schoen decided those 2 weren't worth it and I'm fine with that. It's their careers, so I doubt they'll take this opportunity lightly.
is arguing what Dave did on his podcast with me. If you mortgage both drafts for one player on a bad team an no way to improve the roster, the QB won't matter.
They have nothing on their roster and have come out and said the shop is open. Now maybe they do love Daniels and will take if he is there, but it’s looking more and more like they believe they need the picks more than any one player. And with this many teams hot and heavy for QBs, someone will deal into the spot. MN can offer more picks, but almost guaranteed NE could deal to 6 and deal back again from there if they wanted. I suspect it was intentional there that Joe Schoen leaked that multiple teams had called.
I think they prefer Maye and he would be the target at 3. Question for me is, if MN outbids them to get to 3, then what? Do they like JJM enough to deal to 4? They have some leverage in getting to the 4 spot if they did.
and Minn really wants Maye, then this is easy. Trade with AZ, take JJM, Minn goes up to 5, to take Maye, and AZ get MHJ at 6 rather than at 4. The price for the move up should be maybe a 3 and next year's 2.
So top 6 goes Williams, Daniel, ????? (Patriots skipping on picking a QB?????), Giants at 4 with JJM, Minn Maye, and Az MHJ.
Heard it from another GM who heard it from another GM
The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
Eric I’m saying it tongue in cheek. What I wrote every single person who thinks they have knowledge of what the Giants want. And it’s always something different. Then go back just a few years ago under Reese or DG and every single person who had inside info all has the exact same thing.
All I’m saying is Joe Schoen is doing a much better job at hiding who they truly covet.
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
there is a difference between having positions you want to upgrade and losing starters.
LAC lost their top 2 WRs who were making a lot of money because they were 2 of the most productive WRs in the NFL. both teams need a WR but that is very different than returning all the same guys as last year entering their years 2/3/4/5. they also lost ekeler who has been just as important for them as barkley, and only replaced him with cheaper/backup types.
right now the NYG have lost and not replaced 1 CB and 1 S.
maybe 1 DL depending on how big of a difference you think there is between phillips and robinson, but this is also in part how they play their alignments. if ojulari, burns, and thibs all start 1 of them may be hand in dirt.
maybe 1 TE if waller departs but bellinger was previously a starter so he's the more likely replacement.
everyone in the nfl enters the draft with more needs than top picks, especially the teams that had losing records.
and picking at 6 right now.
But also 2003 Giants were 4-12 team and pick was at 4.
It’s all about conviction. Yeah we might not be good enough this yr but next yr the team can turn around with good QB, just see Texans.
Also there’s no guarantee Giants will be picking top 10 at next yr draft.
Just like this yr, Giants can win some low hanging fruit team and be 7-10 or 8-9 and be outside too 10 and then what. You still need to package future picks to trade up anyway. It’s a bad cycle.
We are at 6 and if Schoen doesn’t want another top 6 pick next yr, he should make a move to start new era.
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
In terms of depth, we can use help everywhere. But, I no longer consider OL a pressing need for this year, for example. We do not need a starter and maybe not even one of the tope 2 reserves from this draft after FA. It still needs to be improved, but I wouldn't forgo another player of need for an OL right now. RB we are not set, but they are better than being credit for, in my opinion. CB and S they already have their starters and some depth.
By "need" I am saying I don't think they need to spend a day 1 or even day 2 pick on these positions if they like someone better.
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
So you’re comparing our roster to some of the worst in the NFL. That you say we don’t have needs more than they do.
Now show our needs to teams like the Eagles, Cowboys, Packers. Rams, 49ers, Lions… that’s not including the top teams in the AFC. We are closer to having more needs to the bottom of the league than the top. Even the Bears might have less needs after this draft.
do realize even if they draft the QB (or especially because they draft the QB), the Giants will have a losing record this year, right?
Agree. Whether they draft a QB or not, I don't think will have any affect THIS year their record, as it's highly likely the rookie QB will sit and learn and be brought along slowly.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
But you are saying we will be next year and that isn't a given. We were 9-7-1 in 2022 (flawed roster) and 6-11 last year (but with a decimated Oline).. My point is, this team is middle of the pack and a decent draft keeps them middle upper middle end of the pack. So counting on a top 10 pick next year is a poor way of deciding what to do..
You're oddly leaving out the fact that the Giants are in worse shape to start with than arguably 28 other teams.
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
One thing that I feel gets lost in the conversation is, early in his tenure here, it seemed like Daboll and staff really could coach guys up / maximize their talent.
Now it seems like, no one really expects that. Is Daboll a good teacher or not? Last year, it seemed like no, guys weren't improving.
In 2022-2023, this staff had guys playing well and contributing. They eventually got cut and never got signed again, and in theory, they were replaced by more talented guys.
Then the wheels fell off and last year, it seemed like no one improved.
Neal, Eluemunor are far from locks to think they have a legit starting OL. I know everyone loves Eluemunor because he’s so pumped to be here and Bricillo coached him, but if he was that good and a lock to be a legit foundational piece he would’ve gotten a lot more money and there would’ve been a bidding war for him across the league since everyone needs a good OG/OT. OL is still a big need. Sy even said Alt isn’t out of the question at 6.
that people have here about how horrible we will be. You do realize the roster is actually better now than it was last year.
YES, I am comparing to the middle of the pack group for a reason. If you are counting on a top pick next year don't look at the 49ers, Eagles, Cowboys- look at all of the other MIDDLE of the road teams... We won games last year with fucking Tommy Devito at QB, Justin off the Couch PUGH at G and a whole bunch of who the hell are these guys playing a lot..
Health on the Oline alone could add 2 wins to our total.
My point isn't about us being good it is that some here are being dumb to think we will just have a top 10 pick next year!
You're oddly leaving out the fact that the Giants are in worse shape to start with than arguably 28 other teams.
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
this is wrong.
this regime is in year 3. most of the roster is their draft picks. they have been in good cap shape the last 2 years to add other players.
you can say this is the same situation the NYG have been in for a decade but it isn't - they havent had any other regime get to year 3 since Coughlin. This team is more like the roster entering the 2006 or 2007 and the future will be determined by how many of the players they chose develop like webster, jacobs, tuck, etc.
most of the teams that have hired new regimes (like LAC) this year or last are farther behind NYG. and that is the chunk of the nfl at the bottom. the giants are in the largest set of teams which is the mushy middle.
the difference between 2022 and 2023 is just weird.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
that people have here about how horrible we will be. You do realize the roster is actually better now than it was last year.
YES, I am comparing to the middle of the pack group for a reason. If you are counting on a top pick next year don't look at the 49ers, Eagles, Cowboys- look at all of the other MIDDLE of the road teams... We won games last year with fucking Tommy Devito at QB, Justin off the Couch PUGH at G and a whole bunch of who the hell are these guys playing a lot..
Health on the Oline alone could add 2 wins to our total.
My point isn't about us being good it is that some here are being dumb to think we will just have a top 10 pick next year!
The roster had better be better. The OL couldn't even function.
Our skill position players right now on April 19, 2024? Ummm.... perhaps the worst in the NFL.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
But you are saying we will be next year and that isn't a given. We were 9-7-1 in 2022 (flawed roster) and 6-11 last year (but with a decimated Oline).. My point is, this team is middle of the pack and a decent draft keeps them middle upper middle end of the pack. So counting on a top 10 pick next year is a poor way of deciding what to do..
If we trade up for a QB and have to give up our 2nd round pick this year and possibly another pick this year, let alone next, we’re more than likely to finish in the top 10 than not. And if not the top 10, 11-13.
Don’t forget the Giants play the AFC North. We can easily lose all 4 of those games and most likely will.
that people have here about how horrible we will be. You do realize the roster is actually better now than it was last year.
YES, I am comparing to the middle of the pack group for a reason. If you are counting on a top pick next year don't look at the 49ers, Eagles, Cowboys- look at all of the other MIDDLE of the road teams... We won games last year with fucking Tommy Devito at QB, Justin off the Couch PUGH at G and a whole bunch of who the hell are these guys playing a lot..
Health on the Oline alone could add 2 wins to our total.
My point isn't about us being good it is that some here are being dumb to think we will just have a top 10 pick next year!
The roster had better be better. The OL couldn't even function.
Our skill position players right now on April 19, 2024? Ummm.... perhaps the worst in the NFL.
Except for losing Barkley, it is better, IMHO. Hyatt in 2nd year. Wand'Dale better. Singletary may be as functional as Barkley. Waller was not much.
Plus, I do think the OL will be better(not saying much is it?)
I think it's clear they want a QB, but it's not clear how badly they want one if they don't want to trade up to get one lol.
It's not a question of trading up. It's a question of how many draft picks do you have to give up. Minnesota's trade assets and roster allow them to to risk more. They are one player away.
The Giants really like Maye & McCarthy. I expect them to lean into their familiarity with Arizona and move up to 4. They've already made a trade with Simmons.
But I am not sure the fan base understands that the new QB won't impact the W-L record in 2024. He may not even play.
I doubt a new QB even plays especially McCarthy and Maye - earliest midseason, possibly last couple games.
I could see Penix earlier.
I think Williams, Daniels, and Penix (if taken top half of first round) will be starting by game 6 or earlier. I think JJM and DM might be later season starters.
singletary ended up being their best back bc pierce didnt fit new regime.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
I think it's clear they want a QB, but it's not clear how badly they want one if they don't want to trade up to get one lol.
It's not a question of trading up. It's a question of how many draft picks do you have to give up. Minnesota's trade assets and roster allow them to to risk more. They are one player away.
I.e. how badly you want one. If you desperately want a QB you do whatever you can to get one. If you don't, then you are less willing to part with draft picks for one.
the difference between 2022 and 2023 is just weird.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
Obviously injuries decimated us last year. I know we say that every year but last year made the team completely unfunctional. Obviously if we stay healthy it should help us at least stay competent otherwise we are looking at a full coaching changes again in 25.
My biggest thing I’ve said a few times and I think you have pointed to me in the past is not having the starters play in the preseason. We have injuries all the time whether they play preseason or not. But I hate hearing from Daboll that these joint practices and scrimmages are better than playing in the preseason. Bull-F’ng-sh*t. He needs to play the starters the full half of games.
It will likelu me down to whether AZ wants a king's ransom for pick 4,
No, that's simply not true. You don't give up "whatever you have to" in any situation. Or you won't have a team.
This is a red line.
It takes two to tango. And the other team may prefer the package that the Vikings or Broncos are offering better. The Giants are not going to give up "whatever it takes" to take the 4th QB in the draft.
singletary ended up being their best back bc pierce didnt fit new regime.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Eric, that’s more of an aberration than the norm. You can count on one hand how many times that’s happened over the past 30 years.
.......But I hate hearing from Daboll that these joint practices and scrimmages are better than playing in the preseason. Bull-F’ng-sh*t. He needs to play the starters the full half of games.
Not half the games. The old way was 1 qtr 1st game. Maybe a half in the 2nd and into 3rd in the 3rd game. 4th game was for final evals(no more 4th).
I am with you that 1 series is not enough. I could see half of game 2, but with 1 quarter or 2 series in games 1 and 3...IMO anyway.
But, a Giant fan saying they should have drafted Ben over Eli is one of them. Wow.
SFGF is right, I don't think he would have done well in this market. Not to mention the two come from behind 4th quarter comebacks in super bowls against Belichick. I guess we gloss over that.
And Accorsi was right. His scouting report talked about Eli's knack for 4th quarter comebacks. It defined his career here.
The Giants really like Maye & McCarthy. I expect them to lean into their familiarity with Arizona and move up to 4. They've already made a trade with Simmons.
I'd say it's more likely than not AZ would prefer to get Nabers/MHJ plus a moderate trade vs a king's ransom and missing out on their blue chip guy like they did last year (which worked ok with Paris Johnson playing well, but the pick they got was much lower than expected and Anderson Jr is amazing so I don't think they would want to do that again).
If they like both JJM and Maye, then I'd bet they would trade 2025 2nd and 3rd or so but that would be about my limit.
Injuries, inflated egos, bad choices, tougher schedule
they won 9 games in 2022 with almost everything going their way.
if i told you andrew thomas would get hurt in week 1 and play more than half the year injured.
and jones regresses + he/tyrod would get hurt leaving them to start a UDFA for a month+.
and Wink would stage a mini-coup from midseason on.
and waller would get hurt as usual and not play all that great when healthy.
and barkley would miss time/regress in performance behind worse ol.
how many games would you expect to revise that 9 wins down to? my best guess is less than the 6 they won.
it is amazing to me that people dont anticipate better how these pendulum's swing in the NFL. the giants could suck again next year or they be this years texans with a great draft and good injury luck. the swings happen precisely because more than 2/3s of the league is at the same roster talent level. a handful are a lot better and a handful are a lot worse but thats it.
Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
They should have drafted Ben Roethlisberger.
And he’d still be serving time at Rikers for sexual assault had we drafted him.
+1000000000000.
Ben would’ve never lasted here with the media and fans with that fiasco. I don’t care what anyone says. Eli was much better than Ben. Especially in Big games.
No, that's simply not true. You don't give up "whatever you have to" in any situation. Or you won't have a team.
This is a red line.
It takes two to tango. And the other team may prefer the package that the Vikings or Broncos are offering better. The Giants are not going to give up "whatever it takes" to take the 4th QB in the draft.
Sure, the other team may prefer a different package. But that's not quite what we've been hearing. What we've been hearing is the Giants are reluctant to give up as much as other teams. Whether that's smart or not is up for debate. You seem to be on the side of saying you wouldn't give up a lot to move up, which is fine but lets not pretend the Giants aren't even being given the chance to try.
No, that's simply not true. You don't give up "whatever you have to" in any situation. Or you won't have a team.
This is a red line.
It takes two to tango. And the other team may prefer the package that the Vikings or Broncos are offering better. The Giants are not going to give up "whatever it takes" to take the 4th QB in the draft.
And the whole 4th ranked QB thing is bull. WE have no idea how the Giants ranked these guys.
RE: RE: what did anyone think of houston's skill players this time last year?
singletary ended up being their best back bc pierce didnt fit new regime.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Eric, that’s more of an aberration than the norm. You can count on one hand how many times that’s happened over the past 30 years.
i am not counting on it happening merely pointing out that it happened, and that things like it happen every season. look at the coach of the year voting every season and you will find that many teams who have had similar happen each season.
that is exactly what happened with this regime and this team in 2022 when they entered the season with david sills, kenny golladay, sterling shepard with rookie bellinger at TE.
RE: Injuries, inflated egos, bad choices, tougher schedule
they won 9 games in 2022 with almost everything going their way.
if i told you andrew thomas would get hurt in week 1 and play more than half the year injured.
and jones regresses + he/tyrod would get hurt leaving them to start a UDFA for a month+.
and Wink would stage a mini-coup from midseason on.
and waller would get hurt as usual and not play all that great when healthy.
and barkley would miss time/regress in performance behind worse ol.
how many games would you expect to revise that 9 wins down to? my best guess is less than the 6 they won.
it is amazing to me that people dont anticipate better how these pendulum's swing in the NFL. the giants could suck again next year or they be this years texans with a great draft and good injury luck. the swings happen precisely because more than 2/3s of the league is at the same roster talent level. a handful are a lot better and a handful are a lot worse but thats it.
I do think we will be on the over side of 6.5 games, but probably not by much. I'd imagine we pick somewhere between 10-15 next year, which will be a tough spot for maneuvering to get a QB. That makes me feel like if they can get a guy they like this year then they should do it. Of course, there is a limit to what we should trade. AZ will either prefer a king's ransom or prefer a moderate package while getting Nabers/MHJ.
Opening night. You're at home against your division rival. Everyone is fired up.
40-0.
Huh? What does that have to do with anything I wrote?
I said outside of injuries, they were completely unprepared from lack of playing time in the preseason. Daboll effed up by not playing them at all. Wink said it would take 4-5 weeks for the defense to hit stride. That’s unacceptable. They should’ve been playing more in the preseason.
Opening night. You're at home against your division rival. Everyone is fired up.
40-0.
Huh? What does that have to do with anything I wrote?
I said outside of injuries, they were completely unprepared from lack of playing time in the preseason. Daboll effed up by not playing them at all. Wink said it would take 4-5 weeks for the defense to hit stride. That’s unacceptable. They should’ve been playing more in the preseason.
The 40-0 bashing proves my point.
I'm not arguing with you. I'm supporting what you said.
You're so obsessed with drafting a QB regardless of the cost that you aren't even using your head.
The Giants are trying to trade up. Period.
They may or may not be able to win a bidding competition.
(I knew we were going to have fans who can't accept that reality, and you're obviously one of them).
Eric, you're putting words in my mouth. You seem to be under the assumption that the Giants shouldn't even be trying to compete with the Vikings to trade up because of the cost. I'm saying that we don't even know what the cost is or how hard the Giants are trying.
And please spare me the "can't accept reality" bullshit. I've been saying for months I don't think the Giants will get a QB this and that a trade down might be in there best interest. It's almost like sometimes you're talking yourself down when you're posting.
There is nowhere on this site where I've said the Giants should not look into trading up.
We know they are looking to trade up.
However, there is a red line you can't cross or there will be nothing to build around the QB. You can't give up #6, our #1 in 2025, #1 in 2026 for example. For McCarthy? That's just insane.
You've emotionally reacted to every piece of news that casts doubt on the possibility of getting one of the four top guys in the draft. And you're still doing it.
Again, the Giants may be able to trade up. But there is a good chance they will be out-bid. It's not a matter of not trying.
Part is that I like the player, but the bigger part is that if he's an option at 6 that protects the Giants from either having to trade up or in the event they shit at 6 and the other 4 are drafted.
If this is a 5 QB draft it changes the calculus enormously in the Giants' favor. And the case for a 5 QB draft is that there are good arguments for Maye and McCarthy not being clearly better than Penix.
Sit tight at 6 and take the best QB on your board. Maybe it's Maye, maybe McCarthy, maybe Penix. The point is they're close together. So sit tight and don't fall in full bloom love.
There is nowhere on this site where I've said the Giants should not look into trading up.
We know they are looking to trade up.
However, there is a red line you can't cross or there will be nothing to build around the QB. You can't give up #6, our #1 in 2025, #1 in 2026 for example. For McCarthy? That's just insane.
You've emotionally reacted to every piece of news that casts doubt on the possibility of getting one of the four top guys in the draft. And you're still doing it.
Again, the Giants may be able to trade up. But there is a good chance they will be out-bid. It's not a matter of not trying.
There is only one of us being emotional here and it isn't me. I think at this point we agree that the Giants should look to trade up, we disagree on what it will cost or how much they should give up.
Again, for the tenth time, I DON'T THINK THE GIANTS WILL TRADE UP. So, the notion that I'm disappointed every time a piece of news casts doubt on the possibility is silly because I don't expect it to happen to begin with.
to trade up with AZ, and the top 3 QB’s go 1-3, if I were the AZ GM, I would think about just drafting McCarthy. Tell the giants you are willing to deal him for a top WR and picks. But wait and see how the draft falls until 11. If they like someone at 11, they trade with Minneapolis. If they would rather have who the giants drafted, they trade with them.
to trade up with AZ, and the top 3 QB’s go 1-3, if I were the AZ GM, I would think about just drafting McCarthy. Tell the giants you are willing to deal him for a top WR and picks. But wait and see how the draft falls until 11. If they like someone at 11, they trade with Minneapolis. If they would rather have who the giants drafted, they trade with them.
I think someone posted recently that they've changed the rules where you can't draft a guy and then trade him anymore.
Then they need to land Nix or Penix . At 6 or trade down or trade up from rd 1
This is the draft to shoot your shot at QB.
This is the list of QBs available when Giants drafted last 5 years
Daniel Jones
Dwayne Haskins
Tua
Justin Herbert
Mac Jones
Justin Fields
Kenny Pickett
Will Levis
Thats 5 years worth of 1st rd QBs . You cant just count on the future getting 1. Nor can anyone discount that Penix and/or Nix may be better than the other 4
am sure the Giants have looked into and tried to trade up, and they may still be able to do so before or during the draft. But it is becoming increasingly likely IMO that they will not be able to do so, either because the teams above them don't want to trade with anyone, someone outbids them, or they aren't willing to offer what the other team wants.
RE: Assuming both the Vikings and Giants are trying
to trade up with AZ, and the top 3 QB’s go 1-3, if I were the AZ GM, I would think about just drafting McCarthy. Tell the giants you are willing to deal him for a top WR and picks. But wait and see how the draft falls until 11. If they like someone at 11, they trade with Minneapolis. If they would rather have who the giants drafted, they trade with them.
Or, teams tell AZ to eff off and they are stuck with an extra 1st round QB.
They won't draft the QB unless time is close and the deal isn't complete with the team they are dealing with - ala 2004 and Eli..
the difference between 2022 and 2023 is just weird.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
I don't think it's that weird. It's an emotional game. They came into the season with expectations. They were moving the ball and all of the sudden they get a penalty and like that --everything imaginable went wrong against them.
I don't think people realize the impact the way that played out had on the team. They were shell shocked and took them a long time to recover. I've thought this for a while, but have held back in brining it up because you can't have a logical conversation anymore with all of the Jones talk or Jones verses TT or DeVito, but the team, not just the QB, was in a massive funk, and it took them a while to get out of it.
At the end of the year the team started to play better and really looked like they did in 2022. We beat Philly and you would think there would be SOME enthusiasm about it, but there is one. Why? Because Philly was a mess at the time.
Well guess what? The Giants early on were in just as much as a state as Philly was. It happens in the league. But nobody seems to see that. The team sucks, the sky is falling, Jones was the worse signing ever and we won't win another game unless some other QB is in there. Is that all really so? 2022 was all a mirage and yet everything (bad stuff only) from 2023 is the reality?
I don't think so.
But impossible to discuss that with anyone.
Cannot just draft Penix at 6… if the value on their boards don’t line
up. That’s a trade down scenario or just grab your WR1 at 6 and then trade back into the 1st round. Teams setup their boards for a reason and you simply cannot pick a player when the value does NOT line up with your pick. That’s how you reach for players and have bad drafts.
are raw because everyone wants a QB. We just disagree on how and when to try and get one, and who it should be. The good news is that a little more than a week from now we'll have at least a partial or maybe a complete answer.
Part is that I like the player, but the bigger part is that if he's an option at 6 that protects the Giants from either having to trade up or in the event they shit at 6 and the other 4 are drafted.
If this is a 5 QB draft it changes the calculus enormously in the Giants' favor. And the case for a 5 QB draft is that there are good arguments for Maye and McCarthy not being clearly better than Penix.
Sit tight at 6 and take the best QB on your board. Maybe it's Maye, maybe McCarthy, maybe Penix. The point is they're close together. So sit tight and don't fall in full bloom love.
other than the medical the concern for me is he doesn't run at all and that's been a big foundational piece to dabolls offenses. with allen, with jones, with cutlets when we had the brief glimmer that maybe he was purdy.
running for yardage is key, as is the threat of run. that would be a massive structural deviation from what daboll has succeeded with - and possibly one that his offense cant overcome. josh allen is an excellent passer and an excellent runner and he needed both to go toe to toe with mahomes. would he have any chance without the running?
thats why i think JJM and Drake are their guys, and right now gun to head i think they will get 1 of them.
i think the only way they dont is if MIN comes up with a massive godfather offer for 4 or 5 - i just also think unfortunately that is close to a 50/50 proposition.
the giants advantage over minnesota right now is that they have more than 1 path to getting a QB and minnesota only has 1 (a massive trade up).
ARI could love MHJ.
LAC could love Alt or Nabers.
either team could want those players and prefer to take fewer extra picks from NYG for #6.
im actually getting less worried about ARI and more worried about LAC. I think ARI has to feel a little burned about their 3 pick slide last year because they still need an edge rusher and even though they got an ok OL, they gave up the DROY for what turned out to be the 27th pick this year.
I think harbough on the other hand is going to want as many picks as possible and then i think he is going to use them on a ton of his UM guys.
the difference between 2022 and 2023 is just weird.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
I don't think it's that weird. It's an emotional game. They came into the season with expectations. They were moving the ball and all of the sudden they get a penalty and like that --everything imaginable went wrong against them.
I don't think people realize the impact the way that played out had on the team. They were shell shocked and took them a long time to recover. I've thought this for a while, but have held back in brining it up because you can't have a logical conversation anymore with all of the Jones talk or Jones verses TT or DeVito, but the team, not just the QB, was in a massive funk, and it took them a while to get out of it.
At the end of the year the team started to play better and really looked like they did in 2022. We beat Philly and you would think there would be SOME enthusiasm about it, but there is one. Why? Because Philly was a mess at the time.
Well guess what? The Giants early on were in just as much as a state as Philly was. It happens in the league. But nobody seems to see that. The team sucks, the sky is falling, Jones was the worse signing ever and we won't win another game unless some other QB is in there. Is that all really so? 2022 was all a mirage and yet everything (bad stuff only) from 2023 is the reality?
I don't think so.
But impossible to discuss that with anyone.
+1 a lot of emotion and less football talk indeed
That is not at all an argument that we should stick with Jones
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
RE: That is not at all an argument that we should stick with Jones
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
I agree that sometimes a team just hits a really rough patch early and spends the entire season trying to recover like the Giants last season. Some of that is on the coach, some of it is just the nature of sports.
Because of that, the range of scenarios next year is pretty wide. I could see anything from a 3 win team to a 9 win team.
RE: what did anyone think of houston's skill players this time last year?
singletary ended up being their best back bc pierce didnt fit new regime.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Houston didn’t trade up to get a QB. They hit on the QB, traded up for the best pass rusher and hit on the 2nd round WR. They got 3 plus starters. We had picks 5 & 7 and got Thibs who has been average and Neal then in the 2nd we got a promising WR who has been injured. You need to hit home runs in the top 10.
The point is, if we trade up for a QB there is no Tank Dell and no 1st rounder next year most likely. Plus regardless, we are on the hook for $47 mil for DJ this season. Him or a rookie with the skill positions we have will have us back in the top 5. Do you really think any of these QBs are better than a potential stud WR this year and a 1st next year? Just like FA there has to be a walk away price, next years 1st for me is the walk away price.
RE: That is not at all an argument that we should stick with Jones
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
It was a shitshow from the start. What Daboll and particularly Bobby Johnson were doing with that OL was mind-boggling. They were experimenting in real football games. Where’s your swing tackle? Peart or Philips? Why is Josh Ezeudu playing LT?!
Why was Andrew Thomas kept in the game?! When he was clearly hobbled?!
Awful coaching decisions across the board. Too much to confidence in green players who hadn’t played much at all.
Carousel at guard/center during training camp was nonsense.
This is game of poker . Nobody knows who Joe wants. He is playing a game of poker hoping the guy he wants falls to him and never gave up any of his assets
is arguing what Dave did on his podcast with me. If you mortgage both drafts for one player on a bad team an no way to improve the roster, the QB won't matter.
...And if you don't have a QB, the rest of the roster won't matter (unless you're happy winning 7 or 8 games every year with no chance of being a true contender).
I'm not sure how the "build the rest of the roster first" crowd can assume that they'll just easily pluck a franchise QB out of the draft whenever the team deems it's ready for one.
And even if you did, you still wouldn't know if you got what Schoen was really thinking correct. Further, even if you were able to piece it all together and Schoen couldn't execute it then you aren't going to hear from him that his Plan A failed and then the rumor-mill will just run amok further as to what his real intent was.
This isn't to suggest thinking through and posting about all these rumors and he said/she said stuff isn't enjoyable for some. For a bottom-feeder franchise over the past decade, the offseason is one of the only things we have as fans to really enjoy. But I have never seen such a set of variables, permutations, and guessing games being argued in all my years. Some of you post like you need some sleep though.
I am not a fan of drafting McCarthy. And I am wholeheartedly concerned his hype (which has reached all-time silly levels) and the Giants desperation to solve for QB will result in Schoen picking him at #6 or even worse, panicking and spending more than just the #6 pick to get him. But I am also fine being wrong, and if he becomes a NY Giant and a star QB then fantastic...and let's go!
Let's just hope Schoen can think through this process better than his moron predecessor, how he himself handled the DJ contract decision and, quite frankly, all of us.
RE: RE: what did anyone think of houston's skill players this time last year?
singletary ended up being their best back bc pierce didnt fit new regime.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Houston didn’t trade up to get a QB. They hit on the QB, traded up for the best pass rusher and hit on the 2nd round WR. They got 3 plus starters. We had picks 5 & 7 and got Thibs who has been average and Neal then in the 2nd we got a promising WR who has been injured. You need to hit home runs in the top 10.
The point is, if we trade up for a QB there is no Tank Dell and no 1st rounder next year most likely. Plus regardless, we are on the hook for $47 mil for DJ this season. Him or a rookie with the skill positions we have will have us back in the top 5. Do you really think any of these QBs are better than a potential stud WR this year and a 1st next year? Just like FA there has to be a walk away price, next years 1st for me is the walk away price.
Quote:
the Texans' 2024 first-rounder in a draft-day trade in 2023. Arizona handed the No. 3 pick to Houston to take edge rusher Will Anderson Jr., while the Cardinals added the Nos. 12 and 33 picks along with a third-rounder.
Tank Dell was rd 3 pick 69. They did trade their 2nd. You're right, we need to start getting plus starters from the draft. You're other points aren't relevant though.
RE: That is not at all an argument that we should stick with Jones
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
I'm more confident where we are than most too and it makes me feel like getting the right qb when we are within reach is crucial this year. Next year we will pick 10-15 or later I bet. If it's not reasonably possible, then so be it, but we need to do everything we reasonably can to get a QB in this draft.
... To build the roster first.
The point is simply not to mortgage long-term future for a shot at one player.
For some maybe, but many here have said build the roster first regardless of whether it would involve a trade up or not. The reason being, no rookie QB could succeed with the current roster. I think there is an extremely small number of posters here (if any) that expect a rookie QB to instantly turn the team into a winner. It's for the long term future.
But that point aside, should we be content to just sit around hoping at some point that a franchise QB falls in our lap? Sometimes you have to take a shot and make a bold move. If you miss, you reload and take another shot (and don't wait 6 years to do so).
Hughes has no information on the Giants. And this again, is very interesting that he’s putting this out there about McCarthy before the weekend.
He said it's from the GM of another team. Peppers did hint to us liking JJM, but that was back at the combine. If the Giants take JJM, boy getyo popcorn ready cuz BBI will be entertaining as all hell.
Why is "another (unnamed) GM" considered a reliable source at all?
First, why would the Giants be telling other teams who they love? They should only be talking about what draft positions they would like to acquire via trades. Why reveal to the competition the players they covet?
Second, if the "other GM" is hearing it from players or agents, I'm sure the Giants are telling lots of those that they love them, so that would seem pretty meaningless.
Third, why wouldn't we assume an ulterior motive from another team's GM telling a reporter what they supposedly heard about the Giants? For instance, if Hughes revealed that this "other GM" was the GM of the Eagles or Cowboys, now what do you think of this information?
And even if it is all true, and Schoen shared info with another team's GM in confidence, then that's pretty stupid of that GM to jeopardize a business relationship by blabbing to reporters.
I cannot wait until this is over one way or the other.
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
It was a shitshow from the start. What Daboll and particularly Bobby Johnson were doing with that OL was mind-boggling. They were experimenting in real football games. Where’s your swing tackle? Peart or Philips? Why is Josh Ezeudu playing LT?!
Why was Andrew Thomas kept in the game?! When he was clearly hobbled?!
Awful coaching decisions across the board. Too much to confidence in green players who hadn’t played much at all.
Carousel at guard/center during training camp was nonsense.
Things unraveled at the end of that first drive. Again, it's really no different than Philly at the end of the year, except we got into a funk to start the year, they finished in one. NYG was competing at the end of the year. You wouldn't know it from the fans, but it's true. They were a competitive team to end the season.
Part is that I like the player, but the bigger part is that if he's an option at 6 that protects the Giants from either having to trade up or in the event they shit at 6 and the other 4 are drafted.
If this is a 5 QB draft it changes the calculus enormously in the Giants' favor. And the case for a 5 QB draft is that there are good arguments for Maye and McCarthy not being clearly better than Penix.
Sit tight at 6 and take the best QB on your board. Maybe it's Maye, maybe McCarthy, maybe Penix. The point is they're close together. So sit tight and don't fall in full bloom love.
Schoen May as well quit if he’s considering Penix as 6. Penix is nowhere near a top 6 player in this draft and I would feel really terrible about the Giants front office if they did that. You don’t pass up on a WR1 for a mid QB who’s already old for a rookie.
RE: Injuries, inflated egos, bad choices, tougher schedule
IMO your entire post is nothing more than extreme excuse making and prayer while ignoring probability.. You’re right on 1 thing - it’s not “rocket science.”
1--- You make the Andre Thomas excuse. So, just ONE OL goes down and the entire OL collapses into being a historically bad OL and that suggests that we would have been otherwise okay? If all it took was ONE OL to go down for a total collapse then you don’t think luck had anything to do with 2022?
2—In regard to the current OL- right now we can count on Thomas. Can you say for sure that all 4 of the current OL will paly well (i.e. expect all 4 to?)? And don’t you expect that probably one of them is going to have some injury concerns? And yet you are confident of the backup(s)?
3--- You have to realize there is a reason why teams like the Giants collapse as they did. They had a low floor. That’s part of the game why some teams can be shit while good teams can still win despite going through season struggles. Many teams have superstars or depth to overcome collapses. The Giants didn’t/don’t.
4--- And your point of Waller? Well, who else do they have this year or last at TE that is any good anyway?
5--- In regard to Wink, you want to give credit for The Giants Defense playing well in 2nd half of season, correct? So, Wink had nothing to do with that? Instead you aren’t talking “football,” you are talking “mini-coup?” I mean c’mon how much more extreme are you trying to exaggerate?
6---And you’re actually trying to minimize the loss of Barkley yet you would bring up/and/or imply 2022-2023 as a reference point that it could happen again? Huh??????????? Barkley is one of the best RB’s in the NFL and still has a greater projected impact than any of the current Giant WR’s. That’s now gone. That puts added reliance on a team that doesn’t have a #1 WR. How is that “better?”
7--- In 2022 Daniel Jones was a pretty good QB. I’ll say again—in 2022-2023 season Daniel Jones was a pretty good QB. But as a member on here that you are, you must’ve read that he has had to change his throwing motion, correct? And as a football fan you must recognize that his best strength was his wheels in which is now highly suspect. And as a football fan you must recognize that he is extremely injury prone.
Therefore you have to realize that the probability that he will revert back to 2022-2023 form is very low. You also have to realize that the RB play of 2022-2023 will not be equaled. So, if we recognize these two very important factors, then why would any of you try to mention the 2022-2023 season’s record has any relevancy (when even the OL is in the air, in which other than Thomas, you don’t know what they are)? We’re talking “probabilities” here.
Yet you seem to want to hold onto “anything could happen . . . “ That’s true to a degree but if you want to hold onto this and ignore probabilities, then you might as well kill this site by saying things like The Giants could draft the next Tom Brady after rd 2 because drafting an extremely great QB late- it happened before.”
the difference between 2022 and 2023 is just weird.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
I don't think it's that weird. It's an emotional game. They came into the season with expectations. They were moving the ball and all of the sudden they get a penalty and like that --everything imaginable went wrong against them.
I don't think people realize the impact the way that played out had on the team. They were shell shocked and took them a long time to recover. I've thought this for a while, but have held back in brining it up because you can't have a logical conversation anymore with all of the Jones talk or Jones verses TT or DeVito, but the team, not just the QB, was in a massive funk, and it took them a while to get out of it.
At the end of the year the team started to play better and really looked like they did in 2022. We beat Philly and you would think there would be SOME enthusiasm about it, but there is one. Why? Because Philly was a mess at the time.
Well guess what? The Giants early on were in just as much as a state as Philly was. It happens in the league. But nobody seems to see that. The team sucks, the sky is falling, Jones was the worse signing ever and we won't win another game unless some other QB is in there. Is that all really so? 2022 was all a mirage and yet everything (bad stuff only) from 2023 is the reality?
I don't think so.
But impossible to discuss that with anyone.
I generally agree with all your posts—before the last few months. Though we say “get the QB if Giants have the conviction . . “ we agree there but maybe the tone of posts have me yet disagreeing with what you’re saying in a certain manner.
IMO your post is nothing more than excuse making using the word “funk” instead of calling it like it is. In all of sports, that’s the main difference between awful, bad, average, good, and great is flor/ceiling and consistency. The better teams go into less “funks” and their “funks” are of superior quality. I.E. they are more consistent indoing teh right things.
For example, The Bills were in a funk when they played and beat the Giants in a very tight game. The Giant fan might try to rationalize the loss as a game under the belief that The Giants should have won and they aren’t that bad. While The Bill fan will recognize teh game for what it is; that The Bills were “in a funk” and still won. That’s the difference that The Bills can win quite a bit because their floor is pretty high while The Giants floor is taking 40-0 loss, and their celling to win when in a funk is extremely limited.
As Parcells had said to paraphrase “You are what your record says you are.” Rotten teams like The Giants will naturally go into more drastic and frequent funks because their floor is so low that your consistency of quality play will also result in such a low ceiling that you just aren't going to win much.
but my reality brain takes over. Trading up is an option but because of the team's less than average roster I believe we must not throw in next year's one. If Schoen does throw in the number one next year for a qb it is obvious that he better be correct. He has to be as close to hundred percent in his thinking. If not don't throw in the one next draft season.
I still feel that no matter what the team does stay pat, move up or trade down we probably are picking in the top ten next year. I'm obsessing with that thought and it's almost visceral. Now I'm sure we all want the team to be a viable playoff team as soon as possible. I hate to say this but I think we are a ways off before we reach that goal.
I’d be willing to bet that both Daboll and Schoen believe that at their best, Daniel Jones and JJ McCarthy are basically the same guy. In fact, they’ve seen Jones play really well at times so they might even say he’s got a higher ceiling.
Which is why it would be beyond dumb to draft him at 6 overall.
Take the guy who has all pro potential if you can.
Now that is silly. If they like him, want him and think he is a franchise QB, then the price is the price. If indifferent, then ok, then don't mortgage the future.
then they don't like McCarthy that much. If they really loved him they wouldn't worry about next year's draft.
Peppers doesn't miss.
Some asshats think Giants are not interested in JJM.
Schoen is doing good work so far.
+1
What do you have the Patriots doing in this scenario?
If they love one of them, I'm pretty sure the Giants have enough draft capital to move up and outbid teams like Min and Denv.
Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
I’m also fine with trade up next yrs draft pick.
2005 Giants had only 4 picks after Manning trade and got 3 decent players, Webster, Tuck, Jacobs.
I believe if for some reason the Giants didn't trade up, Daboll and Schoen decided those 2 weren't worth it and I'm fine with that. It's their careers, so I doubt they'll take this opportunity lightly.
I don't either, but it seems Maye is more their type. Maye is the one I am least optimistic about, but I haven't a clue...
I think they prefer Maye and he would be the target at 3. Question for me is, if MN outbids them to get to 3, then what? Do they like JJM enough to deal to 4? They have some leverage in getting to the 4 spot if they did.
Smoke gets in your Eyes
So top 6 goes Williams, Daniel, ????? (Patriots skipping on picking a QB?????), Giants at 4 with JJM, Minn Maye, and Az MHJ.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Peppers doesn't miss.
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The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
Eric I’m saying it tongue in cheek. What I wrote every single person who thinks they have knowledge of what the Giants want. And it’s always something different. Then go back just a few years ago under Reese or DG and every single person who had inside info all has the exact same thing.
All I’m saying is Joe Schoen is doing a much better job at hiding who they truly covet.
Nothing has changed in months.
It's QB or WR. (with the possibility of a trade down)
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
I think McCarthy will be better than Jones, but this feels to me like replacing Dave Brown with Danny Kannel.
We're picking in the top 10.
Again.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
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starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
Hitting the gummies early?
there is a difference between having positions you want to upgrade and losing starters.
LAC lost their top 2 WRs who were making a lot of money because they were 2 of the most productive WRs in the NFL. both teams need a WR but that is very different than returning all the same guys as last year entering their years 2/3/4/5. they also lost ekeler who has been just as important for them as barkley, and only replaced him with cheaper/backup types.
right now the NYG have lost and not replaced 1 CB and 1 S.
maybe 1 DL depending on how big of a difference you think there is between phillips and robinson, but this is also in part how they play their alignments. if ojulari, burns, and thibs all start 1 of them may be hand in dirt.
maybe 1 TE if waller departs but bellinger was previously a starter so he's the more likely replacement.
everyone in the nfl enters the draft with more needs than top picks, especially the teams that had losing records.
But also 2003 Giants were 4-12 team and pick was at 4.
It’s all about conviction. Yeah we might not be good enough this yr but next yr the team can turn around with good QB, just see Texans.
Also there’s no guarantee Giants will be picking top 10 at next yr draft.
Just like this yr, Giants can win some low hanging fruit team and be 7-10 or 8-9 and be outside too 10 and then what. You still need to package future picks to trade up anyway. It’s a bad cycle.
We are at 6 and if Schoen doesn’t want another top 6 pick next yr, he should make a move to start new era.
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needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
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In comment 16475492 Eric from BBI said:
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needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
By "need" I am saying I don't think they need to spend a day 1 or even day 2 pick on these positions if they like someone better.
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
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starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
So you’re comparing our roster to some of the worst in the NFL. That you say we don’t have needs more than they do.
Now show our needs to teams like the Eagles, Cowboys, Packers. Rams, 49ers, Lions… that’s not including the top teams in the AFC. We are closer to having more needs to the bottom of the league than the top. Even the Bears might have less needs after this draft.
Of course. Drafting a QB is about starting a rebuild process that has been stuck in neutral.
But I am not sure the fan base understands that the new QB won't impact the W-L record in 2024. He may not even play.
Agree. Whether they draft a QB or not, I don't think will have any affect THIS year their record, as it's highly likely the rookie QB will sit and learn and be brought along slowly.
We're picking in the top 10.
Again.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
But you are saying we will be next year and that isn't a given. We were 9-7-1 in 2022 (flawed roster) and 6-11 last year (but with a decimated Oline).. My point is, this team is middle of the pack and a decent draft keeps them middle upper middle end of the pack. So counting on a top 10 pick next year is a poor way of deciding what to do..
But it's a strong possibility.
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
One thing that I feel gets lost in the conversation is, early in his tenure here, it seemed like Daboll and staff really could coach guys up / maximize their talent.
Now it seems like, no one really expects that. Is Daboll a good teacher or not? Last year, it seemed like no, guys weren't improving.
In 2022-2023, this staff had guys playing well and contributing. They eventually got cut and never got signed again, and in theory, they were replaced by more talented guys.
Then the wheels fell off and last year, it seemed like no one improved.
YES, I am comparing to the middle of the pack group for a reason. If you are counting on a top pick next year don't look at the 49ers, Eagles, Cowboys- look at all of the other MIDDLE of the road teams... We won games last year with fucking Tommy Devito at QB, Justin off the Couch PUGH at G and a whole bunch of who the hell are these guys playing a lot..
Health on the Oline alone could add 2 wins to our total.
My point isn't about us being good it is that some here are being dumb to think we will just have a top 10 pick next year!
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
this is wrong.
this regime is in year 3. most of the roster is their draft picks. they have been in good cap shape the last 2 years to add other players.
you can say this is the same situation the NYG have been in for a decade but it isn't - they havent had any other regime get to year 3 since Coughlin. This team is more like the roster entering the 2006 or 2007 and the future will be determined by how many of the players they chose develop like webster, jacobs, tuck, etc.
most of the teams that have hired new regimes (like LAC) this year or last are farther behind NYG. and that is the chunk of the nfl at the bottom. the giants are in the largest set of teams which is the mushy middle.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
But I am not sure the fan base understands that the new QB won't impact the W-L record in 2024. He may not even play.
I doubt a new QB even plays especially McCarthy and Maye - earliest midseason, possibly last couple games.
I could see Penix earlier.
YES, I am comparing to the middle of the pack group for a reason. If you are counting on a top pick next year don't look at the 49ers, Eagles, Cowboys- look at all of the other MIDDLE of the road teams... We won games last year with fucking Tommy Devito at QB, Justin off the Couch PUGH at G and a whole bunch of who the hell are these guys playing a lot..
Health on the Oline alone could add 2 wins to our total.
My point isn't about us being good it is that some here are being dumb to think we will just have a top 10 pick next year!
The roster had better be better. The OL couldn't even function.
Our skill position players right now on April 19, 2024? Ummm.... perhaps the worst in the NFL.
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Not flawed.
We're picking in the top 10.
Again.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
But you are saying we will be next year and that isn't a given. We were 9-7-1 in 2022 (flawed roster) and 6-11 last year (but with a decimated Oline).. My point is, this team is middle of the pack and a decent draft keeps them middle upper middle end of the pack. So counting on a top 10 pick next year is a poor way of deciding what to do..
If we trade up for a QB and have to give up our 2nd round pick this year and possibly another pick this year, let alone next, we’re more than likely to finish in the top 10 than not. And if not the top 10, 11-13.
Don’t forget the Giants play the AFC North. We can easily lose all 4 of those games and most likely will.
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that people have here about how horrible we will be. You do realize the roster is actually better now than it was last year.
YES, I am comparing to the middle of the pack group for a reason. If you are counting on a top pick next year don't look at the 49ers, Eagles, Cowboys- look at all of the other MIDDLE of the road teams... We won games last year with fucking Tommy Devito at QB, Justin off the Couch PUGH at G and a whole bunch of who the hell are these guys playing a lot..
Health on the Oline alone could add 2 wins to our total.
My point isn't about us being good it is that some here are being dumb to think we will just have a top 10 pick next year!
The roster had better be better. The OL couldn't even function.
Our skill position players right now on April 19, 2024? Ummm.... perhaps the worst in the NFL.
Except for losing Barkley, it is better, IMHO. Hyatt in 2nd year. Wand'Dale better. Singletary may be as functional as Barkley. Waller was not much.
Plus, I do think the OL will be better(not saying much is it?)
It's not a question of trading up. It's a question of how many draft picks do you have to give up. Minnesota's trade assets and roster allow them to to risk more. They are one player away.
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I know that. You know that.
But I am not sure the fan base understands that the new QB won't impact the W-L record in 2024. He may not even play.
I doubt a new QB even plays especially McCarthy and Maye - earliest midseason, possibly last couple games.
I could see Penix earlier.
I think Williams, Daniels, and Penix (if taken top half of first round) will be starting by game 6 or earlier. I think JJM and DM might be later season starters.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
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I think it's clear they want a QB, but it's not clear how badly they want one if they don't want to trade up to get one lol.
It's not a question of trading up. It's a question of how many draft picks do you have to give up. Minnesota's trade assets and roster allow them to to risk more. They are one player away.
I.e. how badly you want one. If you desperately want a QB you do whatever you can to get one. If you don't, then you are less willing to part with draft picks for one.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
Obviously injuries decimated us last year. I know we say that every year but last year made the team completely unfunctional. Obviously if we stay healthy it should help us at least stay competent otherwise we are looking at a full coaching changes again in 25.
My biggest thing I’ve said a few times and I think you have pointed to me in the past is not having the starters play in the preseason. We have injuries all the time whether they play preseason or not. But I hate hearing from Daboll that these joint practices and scrimmages are better than playing in the preseason. Bull-F’ng-sh*t. He needs to play the starters the full half of games.
This is a red line.
It takes two to tango. And the other team may prefer the package that the Vikings or Broncos are offering better. The Giants are not going to give up "whatever it takes" to take the 4th QB in the draft.
Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
They should have drafted Ben Roethlisberger.
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Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
They should have drafted Ben Roethlisberger.
And he’d still be serving time at Rikers for sexual assault had we drafted him.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Eric, that’s more of an aberration than the norm. You can count on one hand how many times that’s happened over the past 30 years.
40-0.
Not half the games. The old way was 1 qtr 1st game. Maybe a half in the 2nd and into 3rd in the 3rd game. 4th game was for final evals(no more 4th).
I am with you that 1 series is not enough. I could see half of game 2, but with 1 quarter or 2 series in games 1 and 3...IMO anyway.
SFGF is right, I don't think he would have done well in this market. Not to mention the two come from behind 4th quarter comebacks in super bowls against Belichick. I guess we gloss over that.
And Accorsi was right. His scouting report talked about Eli's knack for 4th quarter comebacks. It defined his career here.
I'd say it's more likely than not AZ would prefer to get Nabers/MHJ plus a moderate trade vs a king's ransom and missing out on their blue chip guy like they did last year (which worked ok with Paris Johnson playing well, but the pick they got was much lower than expected and Anderson Jr is amazing so I don't think they would want to do that again).
If they like both JJM and Maye, then I'd bet they would trade 2025 2nd and 3rd or so but that would be about my limit.
they won 9 games in 2022 with almost everything going their way.
if i told you andrew thomas would get hurt in week 1 and play more than half the year injured.
and jones regresses + he/tyrod would get hurt leaving them to start a UDFA for a month+.
and Wink would stage a mini-coup from midseason on.
and waller would get hurt as usual and not play all that great when healthy.
and barkley would miss time/regress in performance behind worse ol.
how many games would you expect to revise that 9 wins down to? my best guess is less than the 6 they won.
it is amazing to me that people dont anticipate better how these pendulum's swing in the NFL. the giants could suck again next year or they be this years texans with a great draft and good injury luck. the swings happen precisely because more than 2/3s of the league is at the same roster talent level. a handful are a lot better and a handful are a lot worse but thats it.
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In comment 16475481 Rave7 said:
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Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
They should have drafted Ben Roethlisberger.
And he’d still be serving time at Rikers for sexual assault had we drafted him.
+1000000000000.
Ben would’ve never lasted here with the media and fans with that fiasco. I don’t care what anyone says. Eli was much better than Ben. Especially in Big games.
This is a red line.
It takes two to tango. And the other team may prefer the package that the Vikings or Broncos are offering better. The Giants are not going to give up "whatever it takes" to take the 4th QB in the draft.
Sure, the other team may prefer a different package. But that's not quite what we've been hearing. What we've been hearing is the Giants are reluctant to give up as much as other teams. Whether that's smart or not is up for debate. You seem to be on the side of saying you wouldn't give up a lot to move up, which is fine but lets not pretend the Giants aren't even being given the chance to try.
This is a red line.
It takes two to tango. And the other team may prefer the package that the Vikings or Broncos are offering better. The Giants are not going to give up "whatever it takes" to take the 4th QB in the draft.
And the whole 4th ranked QB thing is bull. WE have no idea how the Giants ranked these guys.
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singletary ended up being their best back bc pierce didnt fit new regime.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Eric, that’s more of an aberration than the norm. You can count on one hand how many times that’s happened over the past 30 years.
i am not counting on it happening merely pointing out that it happened, and that things like it happen every season. look at the coach of the year voting every season and you will find that many teams who have had similar happen each season.
that is exactly what happened with this regime and this team in 2022 when they entered the season with david sills, kenny golladay, sterling shepard with rookie bellinger at TE.
they won 9 games in 2022 with almost everything going their way.
if i told you andrew thomas would get hurt in week 1 and play more than half the year injured.
and jones regresses + he/tyrod would get hurt leaving them to start a UDFA for a month+.
and Wink would stage a mini-coup from midseason on.
and waller would get hurt as usual and not play all that great when healthy.
and barkley would miss time/regress in performance behind worse ol.
how many games would you expect to revise that 9 wins down to? my best guess is less than the 6 they won.
it is amazing to me that people dont anticipate better how these pendulum's swing in the NFL. the giants could suck again next year or they be this years texans with a great draft and good injury luck. the swings happen precisely because more than 2/3s of the league is at the same roster talent level. a handful are a lot better and a handful are a lot worse but thats it.
I do think we will be on the over side of 6.5 games, but probably not by much. I'd imagine we pick somewhere between 10-15 next year, which will be a tough spot for maneuvering to get a QB. That makes me feel like if they can get a guy they like this year then they should do it. Of course, there is a limit to what we should trade. AZ will either prefer a king's ransom or prefer a moderate package while getting Nabers/MHJ.
There is a really, really good chance the Giants like Williams, Daniels, and Maye more than McCarthy.
40-0.
Huh? What does that have to do with anything I wrote?
I said outside of injuries, they were completely unprepared from lack of playing time in the preseason. Daboll effed up by not playing them at all. Wink said it would take 4-5 weeks for the defense to hit stride. That’s unacceptable. They should’ve been playing more in the preseason.
The 40-0 bashing proves my point.
The Giants are trying to trade up. Period.
They may or may not be able to win a bidding competition.
(I knew we were going to have fans who can't accept that reality, and you're obviously one of them).
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Opening night. You're at home against your division rival. Everyone is fired up.
40-0.
Huh? What does that have to do with anything I wrote?
I said outside of injuries, they were completely unprepared from lack of playing time in the preseason. Daboll effed up by not playing them at all. Wink said it would take 4-5 weeks for the defense to hit stride. That’s unacceptable. They should’ve been playing more in the preseason.
The 40-0 bashing proves my point.
I'm not arguing with you. I'm supporting what you said.
The Giants are trying to trade up. Period.
They may or may not be able to win a bidding competition.
(I knew we were going to have fans who can't accept that reality, and you're obviously one of them).
Eric, you're putting words in my mouth. You seem to be under the assumption that the Giants shouldn't even be trying to compete with the Vikings to trade up because of the cost. I'm saying that we don't even know what the cost is or how hard the Giants are trying.
And please spare me the "can't accept reality" bullshit. I've been saying for months I don't think the Giants will get a QB this and that a trade down might be in there best interest. It's almost like sometimes you're talking yourself down when you're posting.
We know they are looking to trade up.
However, there is a red line you can't cross or there will be nothing to build around the QB. You can't give up #6, our #1 in 2025, #1 in 2026 for example. For McCarthy? That's just insane.
You've emotionally reacted to every piece of news that casts doubt on the possibility of getting one of the four top guys in the draft. And you're still doing it.
Again, the Giants may be able to trade up. But there is a good chance they will be out-bid. It's not a matter of not trying.
If this is a 5 QB draft it changes the calculus enormously in the Giants' favor. And the case for a 5 QB draft is that there are good arguments for Maye and McCarthy not being clearly better than Penix.
Sit tight at 6 and take the best QB on your board. Maybe it's Maye, maybe McCarthy, maybe Penix. The point is they're close together. So sit tight and don't fall in full bloom love.
We know they are looking to trade up.
However, there is a red line you can't cross or there will be nothing to build around the QB. You can't give up #6, our #1 in 2025, #1 in 2026 for example. For McCarthy? That's just insane.
You've emotionally reacted to every piece of news that casts doubt on the possibility of getting one of the four top guys in the draft. And you're still doing it.
Again, the Giants may be able to trade up. But there is a good chance they will be out-bid. It's not a matter of not trying.
There is only one of us being emotional here and it isn't me. I think at this point we agree that the Giants should look to trade up, we disagree on what it will cost or how much they should give up.
Again, for the tenth time, I DON'T THINK THE GIANTS WILL TRADE UP. So, the notion that I'm disappointed every time a piece of news casts doubt on the possibility is silly because I don't expect it to happen to begin with.
I think someone posted recently that they've changed the rules where you can't draft a guy and then trade him anymore.
You're right, I'll be nicer. Pinky swear.
Then they need to land Nix or Penix . At 6 or trade down or trade up from rd 1
This is the draft to shoot your shot at QB.
This is the list of QBs available when Giants drafted last 5 years
Daniel Jones
Dwayne Haskins
Tua
Justin Herbert
Mac Jones
Justin Fields
Kenny Pickett
Will Levis
Thats 5 years worth of 1st rd QBs . You cant just count on the future getting 1. Nor can anyone discount that Penix and/or Nix may be better than the other 4
Or, teams tell AZ to eff off and they are stuck with an extra 1st round QB.
They won't draft the QB unless time is close and the deal isn't complete with the team they are dealing with - ala 2004 and Eli..
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
I don't think it's that weird. It's an emotional game. They came into the season with expectations. They were moving the ball and all of the sudden they get a penalty and like that --everything imaginable went wrong against them.
I don't think people realize the impact the way that played out had on the team. They were shell shocked and took them a long time to recover. I've thought this for a while, but have held back in brining it up because you can't have a logical conversation anymore with all of the Jones talk or Jones verses TT or DeVito, but the team, not just the QB, was in a massive funk, and it took them a while to get out of it.
At the end of the year the team started to play better and really looked like they did in 2022. We beat Philly and you would think there would be SOME enthusiasm about it, but there is one. Why? Because Philly was a mess at the time.
Well guess what? The Giants early on were in just as much as a state as Philly was. It happens in the league. But nobody seems to see that. The team sucks, the sky is falling, Jones was the worse signing ever and we won't win another game unless some other QB is in there. Is that all really so? 2022 was all a mirage and yet everything (bad stuff only) from 2023 is the reality?
I don't think so.
But impossible to discuss that with anyone.
If this is a 5 QB draft it changes the calculus enormously in the Giants' favor. And the case for a 5 QB draft is that there are good arguments for Maye and McCarthy not being clearly better than Penix.
Sit tight at 6 and take the best QB on your board. Maybe it's Maye, maybe McCarthy, maybe Penix. The point is they're close together. So sit tight and don't fall in full bloom love.
other than the medical the concern for me is he doesn't run at all and that's been a big foundational piece to dabolls offenses. with allen, with jones, with cutlets when we had the brief glimmer that maybe he was purdy.
running for yardage is key, as is the threat of run. that would be a massive structural deviation from what daboll has succeeded with - and possibly one that his offense cant overcome. josh allen is an excellent passer and an excellent runner and he needed both to go toe to toe with mahomes. would he have any chance without the running?
thats why i think JJM and Drake are their guys, and right now gun to head i think they will get 1 of them.
i think the only way they dont is if MIN comes up with a massive godfather offer for 4 or 5 - i just also think unfortunately that is close to a 50/50 proposition.
the giants advantage over minnesota right now is that they have more than 1 path to getting a QB and minnesota only has 1 (a massive trade up).
ARI could love MHJ.
LAC could love Alt or Nabers.
either team could want those players and prefer to take fewer extra picks from NYG for #6.
im actually getting less worried about ARI and more worried about LAC. I think ARI has to feel a little burned about their 3 pick slide last year because they still need an edge rusher and even though they got an ok OL, they gave up the DROY for what turned out to be the 27th pick this year.
I think harbough on the other hand is going to want as many picks as possible and then i think he is going to use them on a ton of his UM guys.
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the difference between 2022 and 2023 is just weird.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
I don't think it's that weird. It's an emotional game. They came into the season with expectations. They were moving the ball and all of the sudden they get a penalty and like that --everything imaginable went wrong against them.
I don't think people realize the impact the way that played out had on the team. They were shell shocked and took them a long time to recover. I've thought this for a while, but have held back in brining it up because you can't have a logical conversation anymore with all of the Jones talk or Jones verses TT or DeVito, but the team, not just the QB, was in a massive funk, and it took them a while to get out of it.
At the end of the year the team started to play better and really looked like they did in 2022. We beat Philly and you would think there would be SOME enthusiasm about it, but there is one. Why? Because Philly was a mess at the time.
Well guess what? The Giants early on were in just as much as a state as Philly was. It happens in the league. But nobody seems to see that. The team sucks, the sky is falling, Jones was the worse signing ever and we won't win another game unless some other QB is in there. Is that all really so? 2022 was all a mirage and yet everything (bad stuff only) from 2023 is the reality?
I don't think so.
But impossible to discuss that with anyone.
+1 a lot of emotion and less football talk indeed
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
I agree that sometimes a team just hits a really rough patch early and spends the entire season trying to recover like the Giants last season. Some of that is on the coach, some of it is just the nature of sports.
Because of that, the range of scenarios next year is pretty wide. I could see anything from a 3 win team to a 9 win team.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Houston didn’t trade up to get a QB. They hit on the QB, traded up for the best pass rusher and hit on the 2nd round WR. They got 3 plus starters. We had picks 5 & 7 and got Thibs who has been average and Neal then in the 2nd we got a promising WR who has been injured. You need to hit home runs in the top 10.
The point is, if we trade up for a QB there is no Tank Dell and no 1st rounder next year most likely. Plus regardless, we are on the hook for $47 mil for DJ this season. Him or a rookie with the skill positions we have will have us back in the top 5. Do you really think any of these QBs are better than a potential stud WR this year and a 1st next year? Just like FA there has to be a walk away price, next years 1st for me is the walk away price.
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
It was a shitshow from the start. What Daboll and particularly Bobby Johnson were doing with that OL was mind-boggling. They were experimenting in real football games. Where’s your swing tackle? Peart or Philips? Why is Josh Ezeudu playing LT?!
Why was Andrew Thomas kept in the game?! When he was clearly hobbled?!
Awful coaching decisions across the board. Too much to confidence in green players who hadn’t played much at all.
Carousel at guard/center during training camp was nonsense.
id do a 2025 first if they were bringing back a 2025 day 2 pick though and keeping their 2024 day 2 picks in tact.
again the only way i think they lose control of the QB situation is if MIN puts a crazy package on the table for QB4.
I think NE is also in a similar situation where they maybe only like 2 of the QBs for themselves and are hoping the right one falls to them.
...And if you don't have a QB, the rest of the roster won't matter (unless you're happy winning 7 or 8 games every year with no chance of being a true contender).
I'm not sure how the "build the rest of the roster first" crowd can assume that they'll just easily pluck a franchise QB out of the draft whenever the team deems it's ready for one.
The point is simply not to mortgage long-term future for a shot at one player.
This isn't to suggest thinking through and posting about all these rumors and he said/she said stuff isn't enjoyable for some. For a bottom-feeder franchise over the past decade, the offseason is one of the only things we have as fans to really enjoy. But I have never seen such a set of variables, permutations, and guessing games being argued in all my years. Some of you post like you need some sleep though.
I am not a fan of drafting McCarthy. And I am wholeheartedly concerned his hype (which has reached all-time silly levels) and the Giants desperation to solve for QB will result in Schoen picking him at #6 or even worse, panicking and spending more than just the #6 pick to get him. But I am also fine being wrong, and if he becomes a NY Giant and a star QB then fantastic...and let's go!
Let's just hope Schoen can think through this process better than his moron predecessor, how he himself handled the DJ contract decision and, quite frankly, all of us.
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singletary ended up being their best back bc pierce didnt fit new regime.
nico collins prior high in yards was 400.
dalton schultz was the most accomplished player on their offense entering the season with a rookie QB.
that is the NFL. hitting on a Tank Dell day 2 and having a guy like Collins break out in year 3 are the types of things that propel teams every year.
im not saying or predicting this NYG regime will do that, just that the opportunity is entirely there for them if they have gotten prior picks right and get more right next week - which is literally their jobs. if they are good at their jobs this team will take a big step forward in year 3.
if they dont it is the start of a rebuild but it will probably be somebody else's next year.
Houston didn’t trade up to get a QB. They hit on the QB, traded up for the best pass rusher and hit on the 2nd round WR. They got 3 plus starters. We had picks 5 & 7 and got Thibs who has been average and Neal then in the 2nd we got a promising WR who has been injured. You need to hit home runs in the top 10.
The point is, if we trade up for a QB there is no Tank Dell and no 1st rounder next year most likely. Plus regardless, we are on the hook for $47 mil for DJ this season. Him or a rookie with the skill positions we have will have us back in the top 5. Do you really think any of these QBs are better than a potential stud WR this year and a 1st next year? Just like FA there has to be a walk away price, next years 1st for me is the walk away price.
Tank Dell was rd 3 pick 69. They did trade their 2nd. You're right, we need to start getting plus starters from the draft. You're other points aren't relevant though.
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
I'm more confident where we are than most too and it makes me feel like getting the right qb when we are within reach is crucial this year. Next year we will pick 10-15 or later I bet. If it's not reasonably possible, then so be it, but we need to do everything we reasonably can to get a QB in this draft.
The point is simply not to mortgage long-term future for a shot at one player.
For some maybe, but many here have said build the roster first regardless of whether it would involve a trade up or not. The reason being, no rookie QB could succeed with the current roster. I think there is an extremely small number of posters here (if any) that expect a rookie QB to instantly turn the team into a winner. It's for the long term future.
But that point aside, should we be content to just sit around hoping at some point that a franchise QB falls in our lap? Sometimes you have to take a shot and make a bold move. If you miss, you reload and take another shot (and don't wait 6 years to do so).
He said it's from the GM of another team. Peppers did hint to us liking JJM, but that was back at the combine. If the Giants take JJM, boy getyo popcorn ready cuz BBI will be entertaining as all hell.
First, why would the Giants be telling other teams who they love? They should only be talking about what draft positions they would like to acquire via trades. Why reveal to the competition the players they covet?
Second, if the "other GM" is hearing it from players or agents, I'm sure the Giants are telling lots of those that they love them, so that would seem pretty meaningless.
Third, why wouldn't we assume an ulterior motive from another team's GM telling a reporter what they supposedly heard about the Giants? For instance, if Hughes revealed that this "other GM" was the GM of the Eagles or Cowboys, now what do you think of this information?
And even if it is all true, and Schoen shared info with another team's GM in confidence, then that's pretty stupid of that GM to jeopardize a business relationship by blabbing to reporters.
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I was never a Jones fan, and am not now either.
But I can relate to my own experiences as an athlete and it is clear to me that the team early on was just in a very bad state. I don't put as much stock into those results as everyone else. People write off the good things they did in 2022, weak schedule, regression to the mean, etc. Well 2023 with injuries' brutal early schedule and frankly a team was out of sorts, had a lot of those same things in reverse. 2022 was no more the reality than 2022.
This is why I have more confidence in where we are than most.
It was a shitshow from the start. What Daboll and particularly Bobby Johnson were doing with that OL was mind-boggling. They were experimenting in real football games. Where’s your swing tackle? Peart or Philips? Why is Josh Ezeudu playing LT?!
Why was Andrew Thomas kept in the game?! When he was clearly hobbled?!
Awful coaching decisions across the board. Too much to confidence in green players who hadn’t played much at all.
Carousel at guard/center during training camp was nonsense.
Things unraveled at the end of that first drive. Again, it's really no different than Philly at the end of the year, except we got into a funk to start the year, they finished in one. NYG was competing at the end of the year. You wouldn't know it from the fans, but it's true. They were a competitive team to end the season.
If this is a 5 QB draft it changes the calculus enormously in the Giants' favor. And the case for a 5 QB draft is that there are good arguments for Maye and McCarthy not being clearly better than Penix.
Sit tight at 6 and take the best QB on your board. Maybe it's Maye, maybe McCarthy, maybe Penix. The point is they're close together. So sit tight and don't fall in full bloom love.
Schoen May as well quit if he’s considering Penix as 6. Penix is nowhere near a top 6 player in this draft and I would feel really terrible about the Giants front office if they did that. You don’t pass up on a WR1 for a mid QB who’s already old for a rookie.
IMO your entire post is nothing more than extreme excuse making and prayer while ignoring probability.. You’re right on 1 thing - it’s not “rocket science.”
1--- You make the Andre Thomas excuse. So, just ONE OL goes down and the entire OL collapses into being a historically bad OL and that suggests that we would have been otherwise okay? If all it took was ONE OL to go down for a total collapse then you don’t think luck had anything to do with 2022?
2—In regard to the current OL- right now we can count on Thomas. Can you say for sure that all 4 of the current OL will paly well (i.e. expect all 4 to?)? And don’t you expect that probably one of them is going to have some injury concerns? And yet you are confident of the backup(s)?
3--- You have to realize there is a reason why teams like the Giants collapse as they did. They had a low floor. That’s part of the game why some teams can be shit while good teams can still win despite going through season struggles. Many teams have superstars or depth to overcome collapses. The Giants didn’t/don’t.
4--- And your point of Waller? Well, who else do they have this year or last at TE that is any good anyway?
5--- In regard to Wink, you want to give credit for The Giants Defense playing well in 2nd half of season, correct? So, Wink had nothing to do with that? Instead you aren’t talking “football,” you are talking “mini-coup?” I mean c’mon how much more extreme are you trying to exaggerate?
6---And you’re actually trying to minimize the loss of Barkley yet you would bring up/and/or imply 2022-2023 as a reference point that it could happen again? Huh??????????? Barkley is one of the best RB’s in the NFL and still has a greater projected impact than any of the current Giant WR’s. That’s now gone. That puts added reliance on a team that doesn’t have a #1 WR. How is that “better?”
7--- In 2022 Daniel Jones was a pretty good QB. I’ll say again—in 2022-2023 season Daniel Jones was a pretty good QB. But as a member on here that you are, you must’ve read that he has had to change his throwing motion, correct? And as a football fan you must recognize that his best strength was his wheels in which is now highly suspect. And as a football fan you must recognize that he is extremely injury prone.
Therefore you have to realize that the probability that he will revert back to 2022-2023 form is very low. You also have to realize that the RB play of 2022-2023 will not be equaled. So, if we recognize these two very important factors, then why would any of you try to mention the 2022-2023 season’s record has any relevancy (when even the OL is in the air, in which other than Thomas, you don’t know what they are)? We’re talking “probabilities” here.
Yet you seem to want to hold onto “anything could happen . . . “ That’s true to a degree but if you want to hold onto this and ignore probabilities, then you might as well kill this site by saying things like The Giants could draft the next Tom Brady after rd 2 because drafting an extremely great QB late- it happened before.”
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the difference between 2022 and 2023 is just weird.
Daboll went from legit Coach of the Year to a guy who made odd decisions in training camp and the regular season. Schoen went from a guy who we all felt good about to a guy who re-signed Daniel Jones to $160 million.
Now we have 11 new coaches, including a new DC and STC...massive changes.
2024 is going to be very interesting. Do we get back on track as an overachieving team? Or are we going to be yelling on game threads about "WTF is Daboll doing?"
I don't think it's that weird. It's an emotional game. They came into the season with expectations. They were moving the ball and all of the sudden they get a penalty and like that --everything imaginable went wrong against them.
I don't think people realize the impact the way that played out had on the team. They were shell shocked and took them a long time to recover. I've thought this for a while, but have held back in brining it up because you can't have a logical conversation anymore with all of the Jones talk or Jones verses TT or DeVito, but the team, not just the QB, was in a massive funk, and it took them a while to get out of it.
At the end of the year the team started to play better and really looked like they did in 2022. We beat Philly and you would think there would be SOME enthusiasm about it, but there is one. Why? Because Philly was a mess at the time.
Well guess what? The Giants early on were in just as much as a state as Philly was. It happens in the league. But nobody seems to see that. The team sucks, the sky is falling, Jones was the worse signing ever and we won't win another game unless some other QB is in there. Is that all really so? 2022 was all a mirage and yet everything (bad stuff only) from 2023 is the reality?
I don't think so.
But impossible to discuss that with anyone.
I generally agree with all your posts—before the last few months. Though we say “get the QB if Giants have the conviction . . “ we agree there but maybe the tone of posts have me yet disagreeing with what you’re saying in a certain manner.
IMO your post is nothing more than excuse making using the word “funk” instead of calling it like it is. In all of sports, that’s the main difference between awful, bad, average, good, and great is flor/ceiling and consistency. The better teams go into less “funks” and their “funks” are of superior quality. I.E. they are more consistent indoing teh right things.
For example, The Bills were in a funk when they played and beat the Giants in a very tight game. The Giant fan might try to rationalize the loss as a game under the belief that The Giants should have won and they aren’t that bad. While The Bill fan will recognize teh game for what it is; that The Bills were “in a funk” and still won. That’s the difference that The Bills can win quite a bit because their floor is pretty high while The Giants floor is taking 40-0 loss, and their celling to win when in a funk is extremely limited.
As Parcells had said to paraphrase “You are what your record says you are.” Rotten teams like The Giants will naturally go into more drastic and frequent funks because their floor is so low that your consistency of quality play will also result in such a low ceiling that you just aren't going to win much.
I still feel that no matter what the team does stay pat, move up or trade down we probably are picking in the top ten next year. I'm obsessing with that thought and it's almost visceral. Now I'm sure we all want the team to be a viable playoff team as soon as possible. I hate to say this but I think we are a ways off before we reach that goal.
Which is why it would be beyond dumb to draft him at 6 overall.
Take the guy who has all pro potential if you can.