says the issue is the Giants probably won't want to mortgage next year's draft too.
Now that is silly. If they like him, want him and think he is a franchise QB, then the price is the price. If indifferent, then ok, then don't mortgage the future.
and Minn really wants Maye, then this is easy. Trade with AZ, take JJM, Minn goes up to 5, to take Maye, and AZ get MHJ at 6 rather than at 4. The price for the move up should be maybe a 3 and next year's 2.
and Minn really wants Maye, then this is easy. Trade with AZ, take JJM, Minn goes up to 5, to take Maye, and AZ get MHJ at 6 rather than at 4. The price for the move up should be maybe a 3 and next year's 2.
What do you have the Patriots doing in this scenario?
and will be good with pretty much most of the possible outcomes. But, I will say up front, I don't like the idea of trading up for McCarthy. I guess if they love him and it is looking like he could be gone, then so be it. I would rather take my chances and see who is left at 6. If all 4 QBs are gone, I'd take Odunze. If Maye or McCarthy are there, I'd be behind whomever they love, and if only one is there, you take him and go WR in round 2.
it all comes down to Schoen and Daboll's conviction on Maye or McCarthy.
If they love one of them, I'm pretty sure the Giants have enough draft capital to move up and outbid teams like Min and Denv.
Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
I’m also fine with trade up next yrs draft pick.
2005 Giants had only 4 picks after Manning trade and got 3 decent players, Webster, Tuck, Jacobs.
I believe if for some reason the Giants didn't trade up, Daboll and Schoen decided those 2 weren't worth it and I'm fine with that. It's their careers, so I doubt they'll take this opportunity lightly.
is arguing what Dave did on his podcast with me. If you mortgage both drafts for one player on a bad team an no way to improve the roster, the QB won't matter.
They have nothing on their roster and have come out and said the shop is open. Now maybe they do love Daniels and will take if he is there, but it’s looking more and more like they believe they need the picks more than any one player. And with this many teams hot and heavy for QBs, someone will deal into the spot. MN can offer more picks, but almost guaranteed NE could deal to 6 and deal back again from there if they wanted. I suspect it was intentional there that Joe Schoen leaked that multiple teams had called.
I think they prefer Maye and he would be the target at 3. Question for me is, if MN outbids them to get to 3, then what? Do they like JJM enough to deal to 4? They have some leverage in getting to the 4 spot if they did.
and Minn really wants Maye, then this is easy. Trade with AZ, take JJM, Minn goes up to 5, to take Maye, and AZ get MHJ at 6 rather than at 4. The price for the move up should be maybe a 3 and next year's 2.
So top 6 goes Williams, Daniel, ????? (Patriots skipping on picking a QB?????), Giants at 4 with JJM, Minn Maye, and Az MHJ.
Heard it from another GM who heard it from another GM
The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
Eric I’m saying it tongue in cheek. What I wrote every single person who thinks they have knowledge of what the Giants want. And it’s always something different. Then go back just a few years ago under Reese or DG and every single person who had inside info all has the exact same thing.
All I’m saying is Joe Schoen is doing a much better job at hiding who they truly covet.
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
there is a difference between having positions you want to upgrade and losing starters.
LAC lost their top 2 WRs who were making a lot of money because they were 2 of the most productive WRs in the NFL. both teams need a WR but that is very different than returning all the same guys as last year entering their years 2/3/4/5. they also lost ekeler who has been just as important for them as barkley, and only replaced him with cheaper/backup types.
right now the NYG have lost and not replaced 1 CB and 1 S.
maybe 1 DL depending on how big of a difference you think there is between phillips and robinson, but this is also in part how they play their alignments. if ojulari, burns, and thibs all start 1 of them may be hand in dirt.
maybe 1 TE if waller departs but bellinger was previously a starter so he's the more likely replacement.
everyone in the nfl enters the draft with more needs than top picks, especially the teams that had losing records.
and picking at 6 right now.
But also 2003 Giants were 4-12 team and pick was at 4.
It’s all about conviction. Yeah we might not be good enough this yr but next yr the team can turn around with good QB, just see Texans.
Also there’s no guarantee Giants will be picking top 10 at next yr draft.
Just like this yr, Giants can win some low hanging fruit team and be 7-10 or 8-9 and be outside too 10 and then what. You still need to package future picks to trade up anyway. It’s a bad cycle.
We are at 6 and if Schoen doesn’t want another top 6 pick next yr, he should make a move to start new era.
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
In terms of depth, we can use help everywhere. But, I no longer consider OL a pressing need for this year, for example. We do not need a starter and maybe not even one of the tope 2 reserves from this draft after FA. It still needs to be improved, but I wouldn't forgo another player of need for an OL right now. RB we are not set, but they are better than being credit for, in my opinion. CB and S they already have their starters and some depth.
By "need" I am saying I don't think they need to spend a day 1 or even day 2 pick on these positions if they like someone better.
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
So you’re comparing our roster to some of the worst in the NFL. That you say we don’t have needs more than they do.
Now show our needs to teams like the Eagles, Cowboys, Packers. Rams, 49ers, Lions… that’s not including the top teams in the AFC. We are closer to having more needs to the bottom of the league than the top. Even the Bears might have less needs after this draft.
do realize even if they draft the QB (or especially because they draft the QB), the Giants will have a losing record this year, right?
Agree. Whether they draft a QB or not, I don't think will have any affect THIS year their record, as it's highly likely the rookie QB will sit and learn and be brought along slowly.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
But you are saying we will be next year and that isn't a given. We were 9-7-1 in 2022 (flawed roster) and 6-11 last year (but with a decimated Oline).. My point is, this team is middle of the pack and a decent draft keeps them middle upper middle end of the pack. So counting on a top 10 pick next year is a poor way of deciding what to do..
You're oddly leaving out the fact that the Giants are in worse shape to start with than arguably 28 other teams.
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
One thing that I feel gets lost in the conversation is, early in his tenure here, it seemed like Daboll and staff really could coach guys up / maximize their talent.
Now it seems like, no one really expects that. Is Daboll a good teacher or not? Last year, it seemed like no, guys weren't improving.
In 2022-2023, this staff had guys playing well and contributing. They eventually got cut and never got signed again, and in theory, they were replaced by more talented guys.
Then the wheels fell off and last year, it seemed like no one improved.
Now that is silly. If they like him, want him and think he is a franchise QB, then the price is the price. If indifferent, then ok, then don't mortgage the future.
then they don't like McCarthy that much. If they really loved him they wouldn't worry about next year's draft.
Peppers doesn't miss.
Some asshats think Giants are not interested in JJM.
Schoen is doing good work so far.
+1
What do you have the Patriots doing in this scenario?
If they love one of them, I'm pretty sure the Giants have enough draft capital to move up and outbid teams like Min and Denv.
Accorsi had a strong conviction on Eli Manning and he swung hard and got it right.
I’m also fine with trade up next yrs draft pick.
2005 Giants had only 4 picks after Manning trade and got 3 decent players, Webster, Tuck, Jacobs.
I believe if for some reason the Giants didn't trade up, Daboll and Schoen decided those 2 weren't worth it and I'm fine with that. It's their careers, so I doubt they'll take this opportunity lightly.
I don't either, but it seems Maye is more their type. Maye is the one I am least optimistic about, but I haven't a clue...
I think they prefer Maye and he would be the target at 3. Question for me is, if MN outbids them to get to 3, then what? Do they like JJM enough to deal to 4? They have some leverage in getting to the 4 spot if they did.
Smoke gets in your Eyes
So top 6 goes Williams, Daniel, ????? (Patriots skipping on picking a QB?????), Giants at 4 with JJM, Minn Maye, and Az MHJ.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Peppers doesn't miss.
Quote:
The Giants really covet Maye.
The Giants are saying they want a QB but really want Nabers.
The Giants are saying they really want a WR but they really want a QB.
The Giants have Odunze rated a lot higher than Nabers.
The Giants really want McCarthy.
The Giants are trading up.
The Giants are trading down.
The Giants are trading for Aiyuk.
I think I got them all…
Every insider, beat writer, asshat, or media member who have spoken to other GMs or know someone in the organization has said something similar.
It would be funny as hell if they’re all wrong and they take Alt or Bowers lol.
The bulk of what you just wrote is what fans are saying.
The operating theory is the Giants want a QB, but may have to settle for a WR. It's pretty simple.
Eric I’m saying it tongue in cheek. What I wrote every single person who thinks they have knowledge of what the Giants want. And it’s always something different. Then go back just a few years ago under Reese or DG and every single person who had inside info all has the exact same thing.
All I’m saying is Joe Schoen is doing a much better job at hiding who they truly covet.
Nothing has changed in months.
It's QB or WR. (with the possibility of a trade down)
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
I think McCarthy will be better than Jones, but this feels to me like replacing Dave Brown with Danny Kannel.
We're picking in the top 10.
Again.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
Quote:
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
Hitting the gummies early?
there is a difference between having positions you want to upgrade and losing starters.
LAC lost their top 2 WRs who were making a lot of money because they were 2 of the most productive WRs in the NFL. both teams need a WR but that is very different than returning all the same guys as last year entering their years 2/3/4/5. they also lost ekeler who has been just as important for them as barkley, and only replaced him with cheaper/backup types.
right now the NYG have lost and not replaced 1 CB and 1 S.
maybe 1 DL depending on how big of a difference you think there is between phillips and robinson, but this is also in part how they play their alignments. if ojulari, burns, and thibs all start 1 of them may be hand in dirt.
maybe 1 TE if waller departs but bellinger was previously a starter so he's the more likely replacement.
everyone in the nfl enters the draft with more needs than top picks, especially the teams that had losing records.
But also 2003 Giants were 4-12 team and pick was at 4.
It’s all about conviction. Yeah we might not be good enough this yr but next yr the team can turn around with good QB, just see Texans.
Also there’s no guarantee Giants will be picking top 10 at next yr draft.
Just like this yr, Giants can win some low hanging fruit team and be 7-10 or 8-9 and be outside too 10 and then what. You still need to package future picks to trade up anyway. It’s a bad cycle.
We are at 6 and if Schoen doesn’t want another top 6 pick next yr, he should make a move to start new era.
Quote:
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
Quote:
In comment 16475492 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
needs everywhere.... not a good team... even after free agency.
I don't believe this. I think they have a fair share of needs, but not everywhere.
I think FA made a big dent on OL. I don't think it is a finished product, but it should be significantly better than the last several years. OLB/EDGE they have talent. ILB they need depth, but they have a star in Okereke and decent support. They have 3 decent S and decent CBs. They need depth in the secondary, but their cupboard is not barren.
That said, I agree that for this team,. it would not be wise to mortgage next year for a player who may not still have the supporting cast to be great. However, I do think a QB taken that high, should still play at a much higher level than what we have gotten, regardless of the talent. Obviously, with a better supporting cast, the play should be much better. With this group of QBs, the right mix around them should result in a top 10 QB or better in a year or so.
Not everywhere? QB, WR, TE, RB, 3 tech DT, CB, S, and OL. And a few of these positions more than just one. We have a lot more needs than you think, if we are to be a legit perennial playoff team, and or championship caliber team.
By "need" I am saying I don't think they need to spend a day 1 or even day 2 pick on these positions if they like someone better.
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
Quote:
starting DL, starting CB, starting WR, starting QB, possibly a starting RB, possibly a starting TE. Concerns on OL.
It's a flawed argument Eric. Tell what Washington has. How about Minnesota who currently has Sam Darnold at QB, Rb is messy, defense is tjin everywhere. Carolina, New Orleans, Arizona, Atlanra- new coach, FA QB coming off injury, Tampa Bay- is Baker the guy, lots of holes on Oline, LB and secondary, Rams- young talent, old QB with injuries, lost defensive leader...
Point being we aren't a SB team for sure but we are closer to making the playoffs with a good draft and health than we are to top 10 draft pick under same circumstances..
So you’re comparing our roster to some of the worst in the NFL. That you say we don’t have needs more than they do.
Now show our needs to teams like the Eagles, Cowboys, Packers. Rams, 49ers, Lions… that’s not including the top teams in the AFC. We are closer to having more needs to the bottom of the league than the top. Even the Bears might have less needs after this draft.
Of course. Drafting a QB is about starting a rebuild process that has been stuck in neutral.
But I am not sure the fan base understands that the new QB won't impact the W-L record in 2024. He may not even play.
Agree. Whether they draft a QB or not, I don't think will have any affect THIS year their record, as it's highly likely the rookie QB will sit and learn and be brought along slowly.
We're picking in the top 10.
Again.
You are what your record and draft position say you are.
But you are saying we will be next year and that isn't a given. We were 9-7-1 in 2022 (flawed roster) and 6-11 last year (but with a decimated Oline).. My point is, this team is middle of the pack and a decent draft keeps them middle upper middle end of the pack. So counting on a top 10 pick next year is a poor way of deciding what to do..
But it's a strong possibility.
Every year we go through. BBI'ers claiming the roster is better than it is.
One thing that I feel gets lost in the conversation is, early in his tenure here, it seemed like Daboll and staff really could coach guys up / maximize their talent.
Now it seems like, no one really expects that. Is Daboll a good teacher or not? Last year, it seemed like no, guys weren't improving.
In 2022-2023, this staff had guys playing well and contributing. They eventually got cut and never got signed again, and in theory, they were replaced by more talented guys.
Then the wheels fell off and last year, it seemed like no one improved.