This isn't a novel or even necessary point. It's been said too many times.
There are people here that want a QB at all costs in round 1, some are indifferent to whom, others are specifically assured they know who is better.
Sammy Watkins was the best WR available in 2014, and first taken. Mike Evans, Odell Beckham, and Brandin Cooks were far better in the end. Nobody knows precisely why, but where a player goes is a criminally underrated aspect to this game.
At the end of the day, the draft is structured randomness. Just go with it and have fun.
draft and say see all the QB busts and then say don't force a QB pick..
So was Fields a forced pick? Was he not seen as going in RD 1? Was Lance a forced pick? Mac Jones? Jones was being pegged to the 49ers at 3 for a long time until he wasn't.
The assertion about FORCED means you know which QB's are going to succeed or at the very least you know how MOST of the NFL teams rank the QB prospects..
Forcing a pick is when someone who isn't a 1st rd talent (even for that specific year) is suddenly drafted in the first rd.
All of the top 4 QB's have been pegged as 1st rd picks, just it varies on when in the 1st people "think" they will go..
completely twist peoples words to fit their agenda. Nobody is suggesting that the Giants "force a 1st round QB." They like these QB's and think that they can be franchise QB's. Now if the Giants don't like the remaining QB available then they should take the best WR available but I don't want to hear you complaining a year from now when they still don't have a starting QB and the 2025 draft lacks any quality options at QB.
I didn't say not to be interested, but taking one just because you need one and wasting draft capital to move up, if one falls to the Giants at 6 they love, than great
is going to be some kind of guarantee of success. But which of this year's QBs other than Williams and possibly Daniels is looking like a sure thing? For every "expert" touting JJM or Maye there are others who are cautioning to stay away. If there were not a half dozen holes on this roster, I get taking a QB and sitting him for a year. But to give up a high draft pick at 6 or to trade up and give up even more just to take a chance on JJM or Maye with the numerous other holes on the roster seems right out of the Gettleman handbook. Trade down a little get an extra second and grab Penix if you want a QB and then pick up a WR and a CB in the second round.
is going to be some kind of guarantee of success. But which of this year's QBs other than Williams and possibly Daniels is looking like a sure thing? For every "expert" touting JJM or Maye there are others who are cautioning to stay away. If there were not a half dozen holes on this roster, I get taking a QB and sitting him for a year. But to give up a high draft pick at 6 or to trade up and give up even more just to take a chance on JJM or Maye with the numerous other holes on the roster seems right out of the Gettleman handbook. Trade down a little get an extra second and grab Penix if you want a QB and then pick up a WR and a CB in the second round.
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
They have to address the position. If they go elsewhere at 6, at minimum they need to draft a lower tier QB. Take a chance on Rattler, someone like that.
They can't go into the season with Jones-Lock-DeVito.
An unemployed person wants a job and pounds the pavement, applying everywhere. No one calls back.
BBI QB at any cost crowd: you're a lazy bum!
The analogy is that the unemployed person holds out until he lands his idea management job. Don't work in a burger joint to keep your lights on...keep waiting until you get offered exactly what you are looking for.
Always take the best player. It cuts down on your misses. Don’t draft for need unless you are real close to being a superbowl contender.
So if the best player is a LT, you take him! Do he and Andrew Thomas just start rotating snaps this year? Or do you throw him over at RT and hope he does better than the last best player available we did that with?
An unemployed person wants a job and pounds the pavement, applying everywhere. No one calls back.
BBI QB at any cost crowd: you're a lazy bum!
The analogy is that the unemployed person holds out until he lands his idea management job. Don't work in a burger joint to keep your lights on...keep waiting until you get offered exactly what you are looking for.
The point is that the Giants may try to trade up and the Vikings may have the more enticing offer.
If Maye or McCarthy are available at 5 and we don't come away with a QB, ill be as upset as anyone.
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
QB hell, post Simms, post Eli...know it well.
Kerry Collins era wasn’t QB hell either. We’ve got quite the dilemma though at #6, in terms of getting a QB.
Maybe we need to use next year's #1 to move up for QB5 or QB6? Maybe we need to take QB6 or QB7 in round 3 or 4?
We need to get someone in the building that Daboll can make into a competent QB who can help this team. If he can't ever find one of those outside the Top 5 in the draft - and our GM can't find a guy with upside beyond the Top 5 - we may have to start concluding we don't have the right guys running the show.
I didn't say not to be interested, but taking one just because you need one and wasting draft capital to move up, if one falls to the Giants at 6 they love, than great
0 people are advocating for that. And if there were, do you think Schoen is just saying “fuck it, we need a QB just take whoever is left”? But lets say he did do that, why is it a wasted pick, can’t that player be good or is its only the downside we are entertaining?
This seems like a made up argument.
RE: If the Vikings have a better offer and get QB#4
Maybe we need to use next year's #1 to move up for QB5 or QB6? Maybe we need to take QB6 or QB7 in round 3 or 4?
We need to get someone in the building that Daboll can make into a competent QB who can help this team. If he can't ever find one of those outside the Top 5 in the draft - and our GM can't find a guy with upside beyond the Top 5 - we may have to start concluding we don't have the right guys running the show.
Clarification - I meant move up from 2nd round back into first for QB5 or QB6. Not suggesting spending two firsts this year.
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
QB hell, post Simms, post Eli...know it well.
Kerry Collins era wasn’t QB hell either. We’ve got quite the dilemma though at #6, in terms of getting a QB.
Was gonna mention Collins, other than those 3, hell
The status quo is, however, a guarantee of continued failure.
Again, if you think it looks bad now how do you think it's going to look a year from now if we do nothing?
No one is suggesting drafting a complete zero at #6. This is a deep quarterback class with multiple talented and accomplished prospects. It is likely (not impossible, but likely) that next year's class won't be as fertile. And then Schoen is going to be confronted with three options:
1. Continue with Jones as the franchise QB
2. Get in the Dak/Goff sweepstakes (the Dak option looked very unpopular in the thread on that topic)
3. Take his chances in the draft with it being even more obvious the Giants want a QB, and perhaps with fewer options
This is a shitty situation. But this is what you get when you don't draft quarterbacks.
This is a shitty situation. But this is what you get when you don't draft quarterbacks.
And Schoen didn't get handed this poor situation. His inaccurate assessment of Jones and what he was after 2022 put the team in this spot. This is a disaster of his own making.
I didn't say not to be interested, but taking one just because you need one and wasting draft capital to move up, if one falls to the Giants at 6 they love, than great
0 people are advocating for that. And if there were, do you think Schoen is just saying “fuck it, we need a QB just take whoever is left”? But lets say he did do that, why is it a wasted pick, can’t that player be good or is its only the downside we are entertaining?
This seems like a made up argument.
Plenty of BBIers are advocating for that, as far as I know, Schoen doesn't have a BBI account, perhaps Eric can confirm?
The status quo is, however, a guarantee of continued failure.
Again, if you think it looks bad now how do you think it's going to look a year from now if we do nothing?
No one is suggesting drafting a complete zero at #6. This is a deep quarterback class with multiple talented and accomplished prospects. It is likely (not impossible, but likely) that next year's class won't be as fertile. And then Schoen is going to be confronted with three options:
1. Continue with Jones as the franchise QB
2. Get in the Dak/Goff sweepstakes (the Dak option looked very unpopular in the thread on that topic)
3. Take his chances in the draft with it being even more obvious the Giants want a QB, and perhaps with fewer options
This is a shitty situation. But this is what you get when you don't draft quarterbacks.
they simply want a QB that doesn’t mean any QB. You are conflating the two. But again, let’s say that’s true and tons of people just want a new QB and don’t care who it is, is your counter point really just telling us QBs can bust?
Some fans are horrified of it. What's so bad about this?
Draft a QB, give him until end of 2025 and if it doesn't work out, start new in 2026. Jones is completely off the books & you can align the next QB with a new regime. If the QB hits, even better.
It's such an archaic way of thinking to give the QB 5 years and wait to hit. The NFL is different than when Simms & Eli were playing.
If some of you were running the Niners you'd still be waiting for Trey Lance to hit. Guess what? They're fine and they missed badly on him.
there’s no relegation, literally no penalty from a fans perspective. Only real downside is the FO/coaching staff getting fired but that’s the deal they signed making 7 figure salaries or more to coach a game. Keep trying until we find something that works.
view is still that we should take any of the "big four" QBs (presumably only Maye or JJM) that fall to us at #6, or perhaps with a small trade up. But most massive move ups for QBs fail, and I think there are too many questions about Maye or JJM to give up a huge amount of draft capital for either.
I would take Nix or Penix at #47, but don't think either will last that long, and don't want to trade up for them.
I would be fine taking Rattler at the bottom of the second after a trade down or the top of the third. He reminds me of Baker Mayfield. But I think the Giants want a taller QB, and I'm not sure he would fit in New York, so I would be surprised if they took him.
they simply want a QB that doesn’t mean any QB. You are conflating the two. But again, let’s say that’s true and tons of people just want a new QB and don’t care who it is, is your counter point really just telling us QBs can bust?
Well, that's what I've been reading the last few weeks...all I'm saying is outside of the top 2, no body excites me except Penix...trading up for a Maye or JJM is a disaster waiting to happen
We may be looking at Lock versus DeVito for the starting job.
Welcome to QB hell for at least one more year.
The term QB hell exists for reason. It's real.
What does a solution look like?
This problem is fairly simple: the Giants don't have a quarterback. It is on them to find a solution with the materials provided. Waiting for the next Eli Manning is crazy.
What's the saying? Amateurs deal in tactics, masters deal in logistics. Of the Giants are willing to wait years for their Goldilocks QB, they are amateurs.
you don’t like the options (completely fair) so that means the pick is forced (unreasonable). Should have just put that in your OP.
True, I don't. With so many holes trading up to take a QB just to get one the pundits like will require assets needed to build around him (hence forced), recipe for failure in my opinion. If one falls to us at 6 the front office is enamored with is fine...
Nope. If they draft Nix at 6, great. If they trade down to a point where they know they can get one of them, great. If they have information that they can draft either at 47, great.
Alternatively if they trade up for one of the other guys, great. If trading up means throwing in a player currently on the roster or a future draft pick, great.
They've had three years. They shouldn't have left it this long.
If they are not in a position to draft an quarterbacks that they truly believe in this year, then they should pass on a quarterback. If next year is a weak quarterback class, there's nothing wrong with waiting until 2026 to draft your guy. Those two years will be gone before you know it.
If they are not in a position to draft an quarterbacks that they truly believe in this year, then they should pass on a quarterback. If next year is a weak quarterback class, there's nothing wrong with waiting until 2026 to draft your guy. Those two years will be gone before you know it.
If they are not in a position to draft an quarterbacks that they truly believe in this year, then they should pass on a quarterback. If next year is a weak quarterback class, there's nothing wrong with waiting until 2026 to draft your guy. Those two years will be gone before you know it.
What does "a quarterback they truly believe in" look like?
Does this approach apply to other positions as well? What if a draft provides zero players they truly believe in? Do they bypass that draft entirely?
Do the Giants not have a responsibility to try to work with and adapt to the materials that are actually available to them?
If they are not in a position to draft an quarterbacks that they truly believe in this year, then they should pass on a quarterback. If next year is a weak quarterback class, there's nothing wrong with waiting until 2026 to draft your guy. Those two years will be gone before you know it.
At 6, sure. But the whole draft? I don’t agree and think that’s malpractice. There’s no reason to not take a qb at 47 or 70 or use both to trade up a bit. I don’t buy that they won’t like every QB available to them near where they are picking next.
If they are not in a position to draft an quarterbacks that they truly believe in this year, then they should pass on a quarterback. If next year is a weak quarterback class, there's nothing wrong with waiting until 2026 to draft your guy. Those two years will be gone before you know it.
What does "a quarterback they truly believe in" look like?
Does this approach apply to other positions as well? What if a draft provides zero players they truly believe in? Do they bypass that draft entirely?
Do the Giants not have a responsibility to try to work with and adapt to the materials that are actually available to them?
It means they do not project him to be a high level starter in the NFL. If pick 6 comes along and the best grade they have on any of the remaining QBs is a 3rd round grade would you still want to pick him? First round picks are huge assets, you don't use them on players you don't think will be any good.
And the scope and scale of the 2023 fuckup is truly coming into focus for all of us. If we weren't paying Jones maybe we could have been in on Kirk Cousins, for example.
The 2023 fuckup was colossal, and shapes the whole time period.
if not for another QB in 2023? Schoen deviated from the plan he came in the door with because he saw a guy throw 15TD passes? Or did he deviate because he was told to deviate?
Both of those suggest we hired the wrong guy. Now it seems we just have to let Giants Football run its course to Mara throws a chair and fires everyone and we start again with more people Bill Belichik suggests would be awesome hires...or BB himself!
It is tiring watching this team not only have no success, but having no plan for success.
Schoen shortened his own window by giving Jones that contract. In my view he has got to find a way to fix that or see if ESPN will hire him.
2022... they did not extend the 5th year option, paving the way for Jones' departure. They brought Tyrod Taylor in for the bridge.
2023... this was the fuck up. I'm still not convinced ownership didn't weigh in here, but Schoen has to take responsibility for it.
2024... all signs point to them admitting to the mistake.
If you tell me those things didn't happen, then we just see things differently.
This is the full story on QB. While I’m not thrilled with the Jones re-signing, I have to give Schoen credit for at least making it a deal they can get out of after two years vs. 3-5.
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
💯
He just did, that’s why Saquon is gone. It’s also why Saquon wasn’t signed to a long term deal last year. I’m not sold on the Mara meddling theory, I think Schoen and Daboll thought Jones was developing, didn’t think they could land anyone in last years draft, and signed Jones to a deal that they could escape in two years if he shit the bed.
he was broken in 2020/2021 too, thats why they declined the 5yo.
im not saying he will be unbroken but it's not inconceivable. he appears to be running sprints with team already, i was skeptical he'd be healthy for camp but if he is i think it's possible if not likely he beats out a rookie + lock.
i know there's the injury guarantee risk, but id personally have no issue risking $12m if he wins the job and plays well enough that they can trade him instead of cutting him. if he plays like he did in 2022 he can probably bring back a day 2 pick (that they may be down from moving up for maye or jjm). but im also of the belief that it is helpful for rookie qbs to not be forced in day 1.
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
💯
He just did, that’s why Saquon is gone. It’s also why Saquon wasn’t signed to a long term deal last year. I’m not sold on the Mara meddling theory, I think Schoen and Daboll thought Jones was developing, didn’t think they could land anyone in last years draft, and signed Jones to a deal that they could escape in two years if he shit the bed.
I think you are correct, which in my mind makes Schoen's mistake worse than simply not being able to talk his boss off the ledge.
Schoen and Daboll turned a feel good 2022 season into a left turn into a dark alley.
he was broken in 2020/2021 too, thats why they declined the 5yo.
im not saying he will be unbroken but it's not inconceivable. he appears to be running sprints with team already, i was skeptical he'd be healthy for camp but if he is i think it's possible if not likely he beats out a rookie + lock.
i know there's the injury guarantee risk, but id personally have no issue risking $12m if he wins the job and plays well enough that they can trade him instead of cutting him. if he plays like he did in 2022 he can probably bring back a day 2 pick (that they may be down from moving up for maye or jjm). but im also of the belief that it is helpful for rookie qbs to not be forced in day 1.
And hopefully that is why we got Lock
Let the (hopefully) rookie sit and learn while DJ is holding a clipboard as not to risk the injury guarantee
Jones succeeded (to the extent he did) in 2022 by primarily being an option for designed runs. Do you think that is wise with his injuries and injury guarantee (and the way the rest of the league caught up to it in 2022)?
This is coming from someone who isn't the biggest Joe fan in the world, but I'm willing to give him a mulligan on the Jones deal. It was, in essence, his first real offseason as the GM, the team was coming off a postseason win for the first since XLVI, & Jones had a solid season-not the All Pro like season that ryan & others make it out to be, but alas-& I bet there was a belief that with more Dabs tutelage/upgrade @ the skill positions (Waller for example before the draft, reupping Darius, drafting Hyatt, etc.) he could take "the" leap. Obviously that sure AF didn't happen & he looked completely lost. I don't want to hear the excuses either about Jones. He sucked. When you're getting paid $40 million & rookie CBs are telling the press after a game that they know you stare down your first option, stop.
&-again, not defending Joe-but I wouldn't be shocked in the least if Mara let his feelings on Jones be known. Hell, all Joe had to do was pick up a newspaper or Google everything John has said about Jones, which is honestly something-Mara's love for DJ-I'd pay solid $ to get a deep dive into. Joe was-at the time-still a green GM & never forget that a lot of these guys are making moves outta self preservation.
Let's be hopeful that Joe knows he fucked up. I think he has. As for Mara, maybe the injuries caused him to see the light. Again, I'm praying that it has.
All this said, this organization is completely fucking lost if Jones sees the field this fall considering that injury clause. Completely lost. I'd cut Jones the second he passes a physical. And if its Lock, DeVito, & whoever, whatever. At least we're not risking a complete disaster in Jones getting injured & then we're on the hook for an additional $23 million in dead cap in '25.
I think you are correct, which in my mind makes Schoen's mistake worse than simply not being able to talk his boss off the ledge.
Schoen and Daboll turned a feel good 2022 season into a left turn into a dark alley.
Mike apologies if this is redundant and something we've gone back and forth on before, but the dark alley is way overstated. they gave jones a 2 year guarantee instead of 1 (which would have been a broadly acceptable consensus even with hindsight).
they got 2 extra option years that would have been below market the way the QB market has gone (and was easily predicted to go).
as i mentioned above if they can somehow get him back to just the 2022 level (an unknown i would not feel comfortable better either way) his remaining 2 years 75m (0 gtd) would i think actually hold decent trade value (day 2 pick).
i would rather maximize draft picks >>> cap space any day of the week. the 2025 base at $30m lower than the 2024 base of 35.5m always looked like a year set up to possibly artificially increase his trade value (pretty sure i made that comment at the time).
We can all agree they need a quarterback in this draft
The only question is, who and when? The value simply must make sense. Reaching for a quarterback is precisely what got us into this mess in the first place. If we don't heed the lessons of history, we are doomed to repeat them. No more middling talents anointed under interminable scholarships for this franchise!
If we can't get one of the top three guys, then we are shut out at six. Either take a WR or trade back. But half the league has serviceable quarterbacks that were not selected in the top ten. Penix sliding is a blessing - find a way to get him late first round or early second round. He could be the next Russell Wilson or Jalen Hurts. Or select a Rattler or a Pratt - either could be the next Dak Prescott or Kirk Cousins or Brock Purdy. Or select a Joe Milton. He could be the next Warren Moon or Kurt Warner.
I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
Jones succeeded (to the extent he did) in 2022 by primarily being an option for designed runs. Do you think that is wise with his injuries and injury guarantee (and the way the rest of the league caught up to it in 2022)?
3 of his 6 games were without barkley, all 6 may as well have been without thomas since he was only healthy for 1 drive. im more worried about whether or not he can break the bad habits he developed than that it was the league catching up.
the health risk is what you need to weigh, but for $12m of risk id rather go for a pick. scared money doesnt make money and i think their cap is healthy enough that the harder thing to do is get extra picks than find money where needed.
like i said i am almost always prioritizing draft picks >>>> cap space.
I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
both sides can go hyperbolic if they want, i would say if jones ends up showing that he's best qb on the roster on the practice field it's pure gutlessness to play a worse player and the rest of the roster will see right through it. at that point if he's healthy they should just cut him.
it's not impossible that they cut Jones btw if he gets beat out (or before). once he is healthy after june 1st there is nothing stopping them from cutting him (other than if they still like him enough to want to keep him around).
I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
If we end up getting a QB on day one, the next logical move would be to cut Jones asap - announced as a post-June cut - and go into camp with rookie, Lock and Cutlets.
Keeping Jones on would be beyond superfluous and a distraction.
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
Schoen declined the option and got a favorable out clause in the new deal to prevent longer term damage. It wasn’t clean but it could have been a lot worse. You can argue he did a good job convincing Mara off a bigger commitment. Or he thought Jones would keep improving, who knows.
Either way I’m done with Jones and I think Schoen has a plan but if we finish day 2 without a QB selection I will be out on him and that to me would signify he wasn’t the right hire.
Always take the best player. It cuts down on your misses. Don’t draft for need unless you are real close to being a superbowl contender.
So if the best player is a LT, you take him! Do he and Andrew Thomas just start rotating snaps this year? Or do you throw him over at RT and hope he does better than the last best player available we did that with?
No. But if the Giants pick comes up at #6 and their choices are Odunze who they rate 8.5/10, nobody else is above 7, and McCarthy is 6.5/10, they should go with Odunze.
A lot of people on this board think they should go with McCarthy anyway in this situation, because we MUST get a QB.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room if that's how it shakes out. Maybe they do better with a legitimate offensive line in front of them throwing to Odunze. Lock's a different face and maybe he's better than Jones even if he's not the final answer. Who knows.
The only question is, who and when? The value simply must make sense. Reaching for a quarterback is precisely what got us into this mess in the first place. If we don't heed the lessons of history, we are doomed to repeat them. No more middling talents anointed under interminable scholarships for this franchise!
If we can't get one of the top three guys, then we are shut out at six. Either take a WR or trade back. But half the league has serviceable quarterbacks that were not selected in the top ten. Penix sliding is a blessing - find a way to get him late first round or early second round. He could be the next Russell Wilson or Jalen Hurts. Or select a Rattler or a Pratt - either could be the next Dak Prescott or Kirk Cousins or Brock Purdy. Or select a Joe Milton. He could be the next Warren Moon or Kurt Warner.
Be smart Joe Schoen.
I'm not opposed to the idea to keep drafting QBs until you have one. The Giants did just this until they were misled into thinking they had one in Jones.
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Eric in Li why is it 12M risk and not 23M in risk?
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
But if Jones is on the roster week 1 he will almost certainly play this year, and that is compounding the mistake Schoen made with the Jones contract.
Mistakes are made all the time. Doubling down on them is what losing organizations do. Schoen needs to start fixing his mistake and not compound it by playing Jones in 2024.
Eric in Li why is it 12M risk and not 23M in risk?
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
The A graded contract that hasn’t stopped giving yet.
RE: I do think a post 6/1 cut is a real possibility
i thought they'd have a chunk of time with him on PUP to see what they have with everyone else on roster and then be able to make a decision. really no reason to make a decision on him before he's healthy either way bc they cant cut him before he's healthy.
seeing him running sprints with the team already it looks like he may actually be ready at the start of camp, which would be pretty remarkable. im sure they will ease him into camp and i agree if a rookie shows up ready to rock it may end up best for both sides to part with enough time for him to find a different spot.
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Come to Central Park to our free concert in May it's Stella Blues Band and all proceeds go to Riverkeeper
Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
You did say the only thing the Giants have done (sans a potential QB pick on Thurs) is pay Jones.
But they did trade for Lock.
As a reclamation project, you could do a lot worse. Could Daboll/Kafka turn Lock into something legit? Admittedly unlikely, but not impossible...he has tools to work with.
Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
that Terps would have spent a top 10 pick on Willis and somehow have people believe that moving off of him as a bust would be a good outcome.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
So anyone who makes a mistake should be dismissed? I'm pretty sure that would mean your posts should be ignored. And yea... getting Willis would have been a better outcome than giving Jones $100M and getting the very worst QB play in the league.. I think you should stick to talking about football rather than airing out personal grievances.
Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
No victory lap in the player here. It's just...I did nail the pick. I mean come on.
As for Lock, he's just a replacement for Taylor, right? There's no long term vision there. At least I don't think so.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
I agree. I don't think Schoen is scared of the injury guarantee. They'll play the QB they believe in the most.
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
I don't get why this isn't a consensus: Jones shouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause. He shouldn't. He's not even that good & then throw the possibility of him getting injured-which happens a lot-& that injury clause...it's sheer stupidity to even risk it.
Not everybody agrees with the group here.
It would be a tough spot for a rookie quarterback.
Playing behind a line that gave up 85 sacks that has been reinforced by some free agents. The best expectations for it would be mediocre, and that's a stretch. To be clear, the line gave up 30 sacks in Jones' six games, an average of five per game, and 55 sacks in the other eleven games, an average of five per game.
And the rookie would also have to deal with no discernable running game at this time.
If you asked the rookie a few games into his career, he would probably prefer an offensive lineman to give him time to throw and open holes for running backs.
Why would you sit your rookie QB for at least close to half of his rookie season?
- we have a new oline coach who needs to implement changes
- second year center who needs to show improvement from last year
- not sure who our starting LG,RG,RT are going to be the most successful combination
- So it would make the most sense to give the oline time to iron out as much as possible before throwing the rookie QB to the wolves, because you can ruin a QB.
Why "force" a QB in the 1st round?
- By using the word "force" you are putting your own feelings on what you think about the QBs which is may not align with the teams thoughts on a particular QB
- A good GM would analyze the current QB class and also next years class, what players are you think are to be free agents, and your current QBs...need to weigh all options
- Its not forced if your assessment shows that getting a QB in this draft class is the best option.
Would I trade a 2025 first round pick for my next QB?
- Yes, but I am working off the assumption of my first point. If I completed my assessments and there is a particular QB that I consider to be THAT guy and the only thing that stands in my way is 2025 pick, then I would pull the trigger.
- If my read my options as:
- Lose 1st round pick to get my guy of the future
- Pick a QB that is not the guy
- Pay DJ 40 million dollars in 2025 with potential of him not playing at all because he got hurt in 2024 again
- Paying another veteran QB a good chunk of change with no upside
What about DJ?
- Do you feel comfortable paying DJ over 40 Million dollars in 2025?
I was a DJ supporter for good amount of time but situations and opinions can be changed. Last year I saw a QB you seemed gun shy and unwilling to throw the ball in challenging locations and lacked the ability to throw with anticipation in his 5th season. His current contract was dealt on the premise that he would take the next steps in his progression and there is no proof he has or is going to do this. On top of that He also has 2 neck injuries and coming off a torn ACL, and he is QB that is dependent on his mobility as a threat to be successful. So my answer right now is "NO" I do not feel comfortable paying him 40 mil.
- Should DJ be the QB in 2024?
Yes, if he waives his injury clause. I am already paying him for 2024 and I do not want my rookie QB getting destroyed , so until I feel comfortable with the protection I am not putting my rookie at risk of getting happy feet, bad habits, and unable to develop proper progressions and reads.
- Why would DJ waive his injury clause?
I will put myself in DJ's shoes for this one:
- Giants have drafted a new QB and they are moving on from me
- If they cut me this year I am looking for job, what job am I looking for? Probably somewhere where I think I will have a chance to play to show I am back from my injuries and I can be competent NFL starter. I will not be given an injury clause in my new contract with a new team.
- If I waive my clause what are the advantages? I get to play football Day1 if I am healthy enough to play. I already know the offense and I get half a season to show the rest of the NFL teams how good I am, I could have potential to be traded (not likely due to contact) or when I get released I could have multiple suitors and get the best contact and situation possible.
- If I do not waive my clause? The Giants do not play me at all because they dont want the risk of paying me over 40mil if I get hurt. So then the year is over and I hit the market, I have not played in over a year and have shown no proof of my abilities coming of an ACL injury with an already injury riddled history. I didn't even get into what these teams think of my playing ability.
I don't think anyone wants to FORCE a 1st rd QB. Most just recognize we need one & this is supposedly a great draft for them.
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
If all of that is true, who the GM is really makes little difference. Mara does own the team. He also has terrible football instincts. It makes little sense to hire a guy to assemble a team and then tell him who you want on it. But would anyone be surprised if that is what was happening?
I don't think anyone wants to FORCE a 1st rd QB. Most just recognize we need one & this is supposedly a great draft for them.
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
I think there are many posters saying "QB or bust" so I think they do want to force the pick.
There are people here that want a QB at all costs in round 1, some are indifferent to whom, others are specifically assured they know who is better.
Sammy Watkins was the best WR available in 2014, and first taken. Mike Evans, Odell Beckham, and Brandin Cooks were far better in the end. Nobody knows precisely why, but where a player goes is a criminally underrated aspect to this game.
At the end of the day, the draft is structured randomness. Just go with it and have fun.
Whatever, this will be Schoen's decision, not BBI's, and not my decision.
This is truth. If one falls to us at 6 the Giants like, fine. I just don't feel it with most of the QBs. Penix is the only one who intrigues me...
Whatever, this will be Schoen's decision, not BBI's, and not my decision.
Agree
That's the conundrum...
So was Fields a forced pick? Was he not seen as going in RD 1? Was Lance a forced pick? Mac Jones? Jones was being pegged to the 49ers at 3 for a long time until he wasn't.
The assertion about FORCED means you know which QB's are going to succeed or at the very least you know how MOST of the NFL teams rank the QB prospects..
Forcing a pick is when someone who isn't a 1st rd talent (even for that specific year) is suddenly drafted in the first rd.
All of the top 4 QB's have been pegged as 1st rd picks, just it varies on when in the 1st people "think" they will go..
I didn't say not to be interested, but taking one just because you need one and wasting draft capital to move up, if one falls to the Giants at 6 they love, than great
Two things can be true:
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
Is the plan to be bad enough for long enough that eventually prospect meets value in the top 5 one day?
Two things can be true:
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
I think both are true.
+1
BBI QB at any cost crowd: you're a lazy bum!
Two things can be true:
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
They have to address the position. If they go elsewhere at 6, at minimum they need to draft a lower tier QB. Take a chance on Rattler, someone like that.
They can't go into the season with Jones-Lock-DeVito.
BBI QB at any cost crowd: you're a lazy bum!
The analogy is that the unemployed person holds out until he lands his idea management job. Don't work in a burger joint to keep your lights on...keep waiting until you get offered exactly what you are looking for.
Two things can be true:
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
QB hell, post Simms, post Eli...know it well.
So if the best player is a LT, you take him! Do he and Andrew Thomas just start rotating snaps this year? Or do you throw him over at RT and hope he does better than the last best player available we did that with?
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An unemployed person wants a job and pounds the pavement, applying everywhere. No one calls back.
BBI QB at any cost crowd: you're a lazy bum!
The analogy is that the unemployed person holds out until he lands his idea management job. Don't work in a burger joint to keep your lights on...keep waiting until you get offered exactly what you are looking for.
The point is that the Giants may try to trade up and the Vikings may have the more enticing offer.
If Maye or McCarthy are available at 5 and we don't come away with a QB, ill be as upset as anyone.
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are taking this to extremes.
Two things can be true:
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
QB hell, post Simms, post Eli...know it well.
Kerry Collins era wasn’t QB hell either. We’ve got quite the dilemma though at #6, in terms of getting a QB.
We need to get someone in the building that Daboll can make into a competent QB who can help this team. If he can't ever find one of those outside the Top 5 in the draft - and our GM can't find a guy with upside beyond the Top 5 - we may have to start concluding we don't have the right guys running the show.
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is a poor reason not to be interested in QB at 6.
I didn't say not to be interested, but taking one just because you need one and wasting draft capital to move up, if one falls to the Giants at 6 they love, than great
0 people are advocating for that. And if there were, do you think Schoen is just saying “fuck it, we need a QB just take whoever is left”? But lets say he did do that, why is it a wasted pick, can’t that player be good or is its only the downside we are entertaining?
This seems like a made up argument.
We need to get someone in the building that Daboll can make into a competent QB who can help this team. If he can't ever find one of those outside the Top 5 in the draft - and our GM can't find a guy with upside beyond the Top 5 - we may have to start concluding we don't have the right guys running the show.
Clarification - I meant move up from 2nd round back into first for QB5 or QB6. Not suggesting spending two firsts this year.
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In comment 16480051 Eric from BBI said:
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are taking this to extremes.
Two things can be true:
- Giants are done with Daniel Jones.
- The quarterback(s) the team is most high on are unattainable.
Welcome to QB hell (hopefully it ends on Thursday this year or next year).
QB hell, post Simms, post Eli...know it well.
Kerry Collins era wasn’t QB hell either. We’ve got quite the dilemma though at #6, in terms of getting a QB.
Was gonna mention Collins, other than those 3, hell
Again, if you think it looks bad now how do you think it's going to look a year from now if we do nothing?
No one is suggesting drafting a complete zero at #6. This is a deep quarterback class with multiple talented and accomplished prospects. It is likely (not impossible, but likely) that next year's class won't be as fertile. And then Schoen is going to be confronted with three options:
1. Continue with Jones as the franchise QB
2. Get in the Dak/Goff sweepstakes (the Dak option looked very unpopular in the thread on that topic)
3. Take his chances in the draft with it being even more obvious the Giants want a QB, and perhaps with fewer options
This is a shitty situation. But this is what you get when you don't draft quarterbacks.
This is a shitty situation. But this is what you get when you don't draft quarterbacks.
And Schoen didn't get handed this poor situation. His inaccurate assessment of Jones and what he was after 2022 put the team in this spot. This is a disaster of his own making.
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In comment 16480038 UConn4523 said:
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is a poor reason not to be interested in QB at 6.
I didn't say not to be interested, but taking one just because you need one and wasting draft capital to move up, if one falls to the Giants at 6 they love, than great
0 people are advocating for that. And if there were, do you think Schoen is just saying “fuck it, we need a QB just take whoever is left”? But lets say he did do that, why is it a wasted pick, can’t that player be good or is its only the downside we are entertaining?
This seems like a made up argument.
Plenty of BBIers are advocating for that, as far as I know, Schoen doesn't have a BBI account, perhaps Eric can confirm?
Again, if you think it looks bad now how do you think it's going to look a year from now if we do nothing?
No one is suggesting drafting a complete zero at #6. This is a deep quarterback class with multiple talented and accomplished prospects. It is likely (not impossible, but likely) that next year's class won't be as fertile. And then Schoen is going to be confronted with three options:
1. Continue with Jones as the franchise QB
2. Get in the Dak/Goff sweepstakes (the Dak option looked very unpopular in the thread on that topic)
3. Take his chances in the draft with it being even more obvious the Giants want a QB, and perhaps with fewer options
This is a shitty situation. But this is what you get when you don't draft quarterbacks.
Agree, status quo no bueno
Draft a QB, give him until end of 2025 and if it doesn't work out, start new in 2026. Jones is completely off the books & you can align the next QB with a new regime. If the QB hits, even better.
It's such an archaic way of thinking to give the QB 5 years and wait to hit. The NFL is different than when Simms & Eli were playing.
If some of you were running the Niners you'd still be waiting for Trey Lance to hit. Guess what? They're fine and they missed badly on him.
There may not be a solution to QB in this draft.
We may be looking at Lock versus DeVito for the starting job.
Welcome to QB hell for at least one more year.
The term QB hell exists for reason. It's real.
I would take Nix or Penix at #47, but don't think either will last that long, and don't want to trade up for them.
I would be fine taking Rattler at the bottom of the second after a trade down or the top of the third. He reminds me of Baker Mayfield. But I think the Giants want a taller QB, and I'm not sure he would fit in New York, so I would be surprised if they took him.
Well, that's what I've been reading the last few weeks...all I'm saying is outside of the top 2, no body excites me except Penix...trading up for a Maye or JJM is a disaster waiting to happen
There may not be a solution to QB in this draft.
We may be looking at Lock versus DeVito for the starting job.
Welcome to QB hell for at least one more year.
The term QB hell exists for reason. It's real.
What does a solution look like?
This problem is fairly simple: the Giants don't have a quarterback. It is on them to find a solution with the materials provided. Waiting for the next Eli Manning is crazy.
What's the saying? Amateurs deal in tactics, masters deal in logistics. Of the Giants are willing to wait years for their Goldilocks QB, they are amateurs.
You seem wed to one solution... draft Penix at 6.
Evan Neal has not developed yet. If Neal fails at RT and Schoen picks the wrong QB then Schoen's job should be in question.
True, I don't. With so many holes trading up to take a QB just to get one the pundits like will require assets needed to build around him (hence forced), recipe for failure in my opinion. If one falls to us at 6 the front office is enamored with is fine...
You seem wed to one solution... draft Penix at 6.
Nope. If they draft Nix at 6, great. If they trade down to a point where they know they can get one of them, great. If they have information that they can draft either at 47, great.
Alternatively if they trade up for one of the other guys, great. If trading up means throwing in a player currently on the roster or a future draft pick, great.
They've had three years. They shouldn't have left it this long.
Newsflash, the whole draft is a crapshoot.
I played golf today, and am playing Tues, Wed and Thursday as well.
Gonna make some big ass fucking burgers for the draft. I hope for one of the top 3 WRs and somehow Penix, as I feel he is gonna be a baller!
Anyway, two martinis are not enough, three are too many!
Maybe they sign a FA like Dak after next season?
What does "a quarterback they truly believe in" look like?
Does this approach apply to other positions as well? What if a draft provides zero players they truly believe in? Do they bypass that draft entirely?
Do the Giants not have a responsibility to try to work with and adapt to the materials that are actually available to them?
At 6, sure. But the whole draft? I don’t agree and think that’s malpractice. There’s no reason to not take a qb at 47 or 70 or use both to trade up a bit. I don’t buy that they won’t like every QB available to them near where they are picking next.
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If they are not in a position to draft an quarterbacks that they truly believe in this year, then they should pass on a quarterback. If next year is a weak quarterback class, there's nothing wrong with waiting until 2026 to draft your guy. Those two years will be gone before you know it.
What does "a quarterback they truly believe in" look like?
Does this approach apply to other positions as well? What if a draft provides zero players they truly believe in? Do they bypass that draft entirely?
Do the Giants not have a responsibility to try to work with and adapt to the materials that are actually available to them?
It means they do not project him to be a high level starter in the NFL. If pick 6 comes along and the best grade they have on any of the remaining QBs is a 3rd round grade would you still want to pick him? First round picks are huge assets, you don't use them on players you don't think will be any good.
We've already discussed why that is disingenuous and you seemed to at least partially agree.
Literally one of the drafts they could have fixed this had no quarterbacks. It was arguably the worst QB draft in NFL history.
We've already discussed why that is disingenuous and you seemed to at least partially agree.
Literally one of the drafts they could have fixed this had no quarterbacks. It was arguably the worst QB draft in NFL history.
Some people say we should draft a QB every year. I think that might be a good idea.
We've already discussed why that is disingenuous and you seemed to at least partially agree.
Literally one of the drafts they could have fixed this had no quarterbacks. It was arguably the worst QB draft in NFL history.
What about free agency? Trades? Did they draft a QB anywhere in the '22 or '23 drafts even as a developmental guy?
If they don't draft a guy Thursday all they've done in three years is pay Jones. That's not disingenuous, it's just the truth.
We've already discussed why that is disingenuous and you seemed to at least partially agree.
Literally one of the drafts they could have fixed this had no quarterbacks. It was arguably the worst QB draft in NFL history.
It’s omitted because it doesn’t fit the narrative
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You keep bringing up the three year thing.
We've already discussed why that is disingenuous and you seemed to at least partially agree.
Literally one of the drafts they could have fixed this had no quarterbacks. It was arguably the worst QB draft in NFL history.
It’s omitted because it doesn’t fit the narrative
Eric when is BBI gonna out these dupes?
2022... they did not extend the 5th year option, paving the way for Jones' departure. They brought Tyrod Taylor in for the bridge.
2023... this was the fuck up. I'm still not convinced ownership didn't weigh in here, but Schoen has to take responsibility for it.
2024... all signs point to them admitting to the mistake.
If you tell me those things didn't happen, then we just see things differently.
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In comment 16480178 Eric from BBI said:
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You keep bringing up the three year thing.
We've already discussed why that is disingenuous and you seemed to at least partially agree.
Literally one of the drafts they could have fixed this had no quarterbacks. It was arguably the worst QB draft in NFL history.
It’s omitted because it doesn’t fit the narrative
Eric when is BBI gonna out these dupes?
Nice spin and utterly false
Even a newbie like me can see you tee FOS
The 2023 fuckup was colossal, and shapes the whole time period.
Both of those suggest we hired the wrong guy. Now it seems we just have to let Giants Football run its course to Mara throws a chair and fires everyone and we start again with more people Bill Belichik suggests would be awesome hires...or BB himself!
It is tiring watching this team not only have no success, but having no plan for success.
Schoen shortened his own window by giving Jones that contract. In my view he has got to find a way to fix that or see if ESPN will hire him.
Fair point
Point taken
There may not be a solution to QB in this draft.
We may be looking at Lock versus DeVito for the starting job.
Welcome to QB hell for at least one more year.
The term QB hell exists for reason. It's real.
You neglect to mention Daniel Jones in all of your posts about who is playing QB. Why is that?
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
[quote] In comment 16480109 Eric from BBI said:
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Sure they can.
There may not be a solution to QB in this draft.
We may be looking at Lock versus DeVito for the starting job.
Welcome to QB hell for at least one more year.
The term QB hell exists for reason. It's real.
You neglect to mention Daniel Jones in all of your posts about who is playing QB. Why is that? [/quote
Because if the Giants were smart, Jones wouldn't even see the field this fall because of that injury clause.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
2022... they did not extend the 5th year option, paving the way for Jones' departure. They brought Tyrod Taylor in for the bridge.
2023... this was the fuck up. I'm still not convinced ownership didn't weigh in here, but Schoen has to take responsibility for it.
2024... all signs point to them admitting to the mistake.
If you tell me those things didn't happen, then we just see things differently.
This is the full story on QB. While I’m not thrilled with the Jones re-signing, I have to give Schoen credit for at least making it a deal they can get out of after two years vs. 3-5.
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
💯
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In comment 16480252 UConn4523 said:
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
💯
He just did, that’s why Saquon is gone. It’s also why Saquon wasn’t signed to a long term deal last year. I’m not sold on the Mara meddling theory, I think Schoen and Daboll thought Jones was developing, didn’t think they could land anyone in last years draft, and signed Jones to a deal that they could escape in two years if he shit the bed.
he was broken in 2020/2021 too, thats why they declined the 5yo.
im not saying he will be unbroken but it's not inconceivable. he appears to be running sprints with team already, i was skeptical he'd be healthy for camp but if he is i think it's possible if not likely he beats out a rookie + lock.
i know there's the injury guarantee risk, but id personally have no issue risking $12m if he wins the job and plays well enough that they can trade him instead of cutting him. if he plays like he did in 2022 he can probably bring back a day 2 pick (that they may be down from moving up for maye or jjm). but im also of the belief that it is helpful for rookie qbs to not be forced in day 1.
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In comment 16480279 Mike from Ohio said:
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In comment 16480252 UConn4523 said:
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
💯
He just did, that’s why Saquon is gone. It’s also why Saquon wasn’t signed to a long term deal last year. I’m not sold on the Mara meddling theory, I think Schoen and Daboll thought Jones was developing, didn’t think they could land anyone in last years draft, and signed Jones to a deal that they could escape in two years if he shit the bed.
I think you are correct, which in my mind makes Schoen's mistake worse than simply not being able to talk his boss off the ledge.
Schoen and Daboll turned a feel good 2022 season into a left turn into a dark alley.
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Because Daniel Jones is broken.
he was broken in 2020/2021 too, thats why they declined the 5yo.
im not saying he will be unbroken but it's not inconceivable. he appears to be running sprints with team already, i was skeptical he'd be healthy for camp but if he is i think it's possible if not likely he beats out a rookie + lock.
i know there's the injury guarantee risk, but id personally have no issue risking $12m if he wins the job and plays well enough that they can trade him instead of cutting him. if he plays like he did in 2022 he can probably bring back a day 2 pick (that they may be down from moving up for maye or jjm). but im also of the belief that it is helpful for rookie qbs to not be forced in day 1.
And hopefully that is why we got Lock
Let the (hopefully) rookie sit and learn while DJ is holding a clipboard as not to risk the injury guarantee
&-again, not defending Joe-but I wouldn't be shocked in the least if Mara let his feelings on Jones be known. Hell, all Joe had to do was pick up a newspaper or Google everything John has said about Jones, which is honestly something-Mara's love for DJ-I'd pay solid $ to get a deep dive into. Joe was-at the time-still a green GM & never forget that a lot of these guys are making moves outta self preservation.
Let's be hopeful that Joe knows he fucked up. I think he has. As for Mara, maybe the injuries caused him to see the light. Again, I'm praying that it has.
All this said, this organization is completely fucking lost if Jones sees the field this fall considering that injury clause. Completely lost. I'd cut Jones the second he passes a physical. And if its Lock, DeVito, & whoever, whatever. At least we're not risking a complete disaster in Jones getting injured & then we're on the hook for an additional $23 million in dead cap in '25.
I think you are correct, which in my mind makes Schoen's mistake worse than simply not being able to talk his boss off the ledge.
Schoen and Daboll turned a feel good 2022 season into a left turn into a dark alley.
Mike apologies if this is redundant and something we've gone back and forth on before, but the dark alley is way overstated. they gave jones a 2 year guarantee instead of 1 (which would have been a broadly acceptable consensus even with hindsight).
they got 2 extra option years that would have been below market the way the QB market has gone (and was easily predicted to go).
as i mentioned above if they can somehow get him back to just the 2022 level (an unknown i would not feel comfortable better either way) his remaining 2 years 75m (0 gtd) would i think actually hold decent trade value (day 2 pick).
i would rather maximize draft picks >>> cap space any day of the week. the 2025 base at $30m lower than the 2024 base of 35.5m always looked like a year set up to possibly artificially increase his trade value (pretty sure i made that comment at the time).
If we can't get one of the top three guys, then we are shut out at six. Either take a WR or trade back. But half the league has serviceable quarterbacks that were not selected in the top ten. Penix sliding is a blessing - find a way to get him late first round or early second round. He could be the next Russell Wilson or Jalen Hurts. Or select a Rattler or a Pratt - either could be the next Dak Prescott or Kirk Cousins or Brock Purdy. Or select a Joe Milton. He could be the next Warren Moon or Kurt Warner.
Be smart Joe Schoen.
3 of his 6 games were without barkley, all 6 may as well have been without thomas since he was only healthy for 1 drive. im more worried about whether or not he can break the bad habits he developed than that it was the league catching up.
the health risk is what you need to weigh, but for $12m of risk id rather go for a pick. scared money doesnt make money and i think their cap is healthy enough that the harder thing to do is get extra picks than find money where needed.
like i said i am almost always prioritizing draft picks >>>> cap space.
both sides can go hyperbolic if they want, i would say if jones ends up showing that he's best qb on the roster on the practice field it's pure gutlessness to play a worse player and the rest of the roster will see right through it. at that point if he's healthy they should just cut him.
it's not impossible that they cut Jones btw if he gets beat out (or before). once he is healthy after june 1st there is nothing stopping them from cutting him (other than if they still like him enough to want to keep him around).
If we end up getting a QB on day one, the next logical move would be to cut Jones asap - announced as a post-June cut - and go into camp with rookie, Lock and Cutlets.
Keeping Jones on would be beyond superfluous and a distraction.
Hey, you're preaching to the converted.
But I think Eric on Li is probably right. If we can't find our new QB-of-the-future, and Jones is cleared, he will very likely be the starter.
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I agree. But seriously even if we don’t get a QB Thursday, I’m cutting him ASAP.
Hey, you're preaching to the converted.
But I think Eric on Li is probably right. If we can't find our new QB-of-the-future, and Jones is cleared, he will very likely be the starter.
& when he probably inevitably gets injured & can't pass a Match '25 physical & we're on the hook for $23 million in dead cap...I'll laugh.
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
Schoen declined the option and got a favorable out clause in the new deal to prevent longer term damage. It wasn’t clean but it could have been a lot worse. You can argue he did a good job convincing Mara off a bigger commitment. Or he thought Jones would keep improving, who knows.
Either way I’m done with Jones and I think Schoen has a plan but if we finish day 2 without a QB selection I will be out on him and that to me would signify he wasn’t the right hire.
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Always take the best player. It cuts down on your misses. Don’t draft for need unless you are real close to being a superbowl contender.
So if the best player is a LT, you take him! Do he and Andrew Thomas just start rotating snaps this year? Or do you throw him over at RT and hope he does better than the last best player available we did that with?
No. But if the Giants pick comes up at #6 and their choices are Odunze who they rate 8.5/10, nobody else is above 7, and McCarthy is 6.5/10, they should go with Odunze.
A lot of people on this board think they should go with McCarthy anyway in this situation, because we MUST get a QB.
For what it's worth, I'm fine with a Jones/Lock/DeVito QB room if that's how it shakes out. Maybe they do better with a legitimate offensive line in front of them throwing to Odunze. Lock's a different face and maybe he's better than Jones even if he's not the final answer. Who knows.
If we can't get one of the top three guys, then we are shut out at six. Either take a WR or trade back. But half the league has serviceable quarterbacks that were not selected in the top ten. Penix sliding is a blessing - find a way to get him late first round or early second round. He could be the next Russell Wilson or Jalen Hurts. Or select a Rattler or a Pratt - either could be the next Dak Prescott or Kirk Cousins or Brock Purdy. Or select a Joe Milton. He could be the next Warren Moon or Kurt Warner.
Be smart Joe Schoen.
I'm not opposed to the idea to keep drafting QBs until you have one. The Giants did just this until they were misled into thinking they had one in Jones.
You might be right. But if that's the case, this organization is even stupider than I thought.
If we take a QB at 6 you’ll never see Jones play another down as a Giant. What do you want to wager?
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He will be the starter...no matter who we take or don't take.
You might be right. But if that's the case, this organization is even stupider than I thought.
Schoen is alot of things...stupid is not one of them
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He will be the starter...no matter who we take or don't take.
If we take a QB at 6 you’ll never see Jones play another down as a Giant. What do you want to wager?
I never met a wager I don't like
How we gonna settle this?
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
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$20
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
Lock
Maye/McCarthy
DeVito
This would be beneficial to Jones as well imo.
Mistakes are made all the time. Doubling down on them is what losing organizations do. Schoen needs to start fixing his mistake and not compound it by playing Jones in 2024.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
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Eric in Li why is it 12M risk and not 23M in risk?
you're right i confused the 12m that vests in 2025 with the injury guarantee.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
The A graded contract that hasn’t stopped giving yet.
Lock
Maye/McCarthy
DeVito
This would be beneficial to Jones as well imo.
i thought they'd have a chunk of time with him on PUP to see what they have with everyone else on roster and then be able to make a decision. really no reason to make a decision on him before he's healthy either way bc they cant cut him before he's healthy.
seeing him running sprints with the team already it looks like he may actually be ready at the start of camp, which would be pretty remarkable. im sure they will ease him into camp and i agree if a rookie shows up ready to rock it may end up best for both sides to part with enough time for him to find a different spot.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
Hey look who it is. Of all the people to call someone else out for being wrong on something...
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In comment 16480407 UConn4523 said:
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$20
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Come to Central Park to our free concert in May it's Stella Blues Band and all proceeds go to Riverkeeper
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
And you’d want Dave Gettleman still here running the show. Your track record is nothing to be bragging about at all.
Now go create some fake quotes to try and win a message board argument.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
But they did trade for Lock.
As a reclamation project, you could do a lot worse. Could Daboll/Kafka turn Lock into something legit? Admittedly unlikely, but not impossible...he has tools to work with.
Agree! You don't give up draft capitol especially with two elite WR prospects falling on your lap! period.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
He's a fucking joke who wants anyone but Jones, even if it is a failure.
So anyone who makes a mistake should be dismissed? I'm pretty sure that would mean your posts should be ignored. And yea... getting Willis would have been a better outcome than giving Jones $100M and getting the very worst QB play in the league.. I think you should stick to talking about football rather than airing out personal grievances.
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Last year I drafted Anthony Richardson for the Colts, and my guy FMIC and another poster (I want to say English Allaister) gave me shit for it. Then who do the Colts pick? Anthony Richardson.
No apology, no flowers, no Edible Arrangement, nothing.
Let's not take a victory lap on AR just yet. That guy needs to learn to protect himself. If he can...sky's the limit. I've posted this before, but a local radio host here in Tampa (and former pro football player) predicted AR would not make it through the season for this very reason. He needs to adjust his play if he's going to be long for this league.
No victory lap in the player here. It's just...I did nail the pick. I mean come on.
As for Lock, he's just a replacement for Taylor, right? There's no long term vision there. At least I don't think so.
Is the plan to be bad enough for long enough that eventually prospect meets value in the top 5 one day?
Yes, you sign a veteran, keep building the team, and keep looking for a QB you love. The NFL doesn't end after 2024.
if they get their qb in draft and he gets outplayed i think there's a real chance they cut him over the summer. if he's what they determine to be their best qb i think they play him and take the risk.
I agree. I don't think Schoen is scared of the injury guarantee. They'll play the QB they believe in the most.
You're assuming who they pick will be Jones.
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If there isn't a guy we love on the clock in 2025, what do you do? Free agency? Wait until 2026? 2027?
Is the plan to be bad enough for long enough that eventually prospect meets value in the top 5 one day?
Yes, you sign a veteran, keep building the team, and keep looking for a QB you love. The NFL doesn't end after 2024.
So you feel like signing Lock was the answer? What is the plan next year since Lock is on a one year deal, sign a different vet?
If you prefer to squander this opportunity what is your plan for QB? Wait and see what happens after this year?
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In comment 16480407 UConn4523 said:
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$20
Week or month post ban
Charity donation
Take your pick
$20 my charity is Riverkeepers
Riverkeeper.org? Ha cool. We used to play the Shad Festival when they had it at Boscobel. Actually Mike Richter MC'ed it one year and so we hung around for a bit. I have to see if I can still find the pics... lol
Done.
Not everybody agrees with the group here.
And the rookie would also have to deal with no discernable running game at this time.
If you asked the rookie a few games into his career, he would probably prefer an offensive lineman to give him time to throw and open holes for running backs.
- we have a new oline coach who needs to implement changes
- second year center who needs to show improvement from last year
- not sure who our starting LG,RG,RT are going to be the most successful combination
- So it would make the most sense to give the oline time to iron out as much as possible before throwing the rookie QB to the wolves, because you can ruin a QB.
Why "force" a QB in the 1st round?
- By using the word "force" you are putting your own feelings on what you think about the QBs which is may not align with the teams thoughts on a particular QB
- A good GM would analyze the current QB class and also next years class, what players are you think are to be free agents, and your current QBs...need to weigh all options
- Its not forced if your assessment shows that getting a QB in this draft class is the best option.
Would I trade a 2025 first round pick for my next QB?
- Yes, but I am working off the assumption of my first point. If I completed my assessments and there is a particular QB that I consider to be THAT guy and the only thing that stands in my way is 2025 pick, then I would pull the trigger.
- If my read my options as:
- Lose 1st round pick to get my guy of the future
- Pick a QB that is not the guy
- Pay DJ 40 million dollars in 2025 with potential of him not playing at all because he got hurt in 2024 again
- Paying another veteran QB a good chunk of change with no upside
What about DJ?
- Do you feel comfortable paying DJ over 40 Million dollars in 2025?
I was a DJ supporter for good amount of time but situations and opinions can be changed. Last year I saw a QB you seemed gun shy and unwilling to throw the ball in challenging locations and lacked the ability to throw with anticipation in his 5th season. His current contract was dealt on the premise that he would take the next steps in his progression and there is no proof he has or is going to do this. On top of that He also has 2 neck injuries and coming off a torn ACL, and he is QB that is dependent on his mobility as a threat to be successful. So my answer right now is "NO" I do not feel comfortable paying him 40 mil.
- Should DJ be the QB in 2024?
Yes, if he waives his injury clause. I am already paying him for 2024 and I do not want my rookie QB getting destroyed , so until I feel comfortable with the protection I am not putting my rookie at risk of getting happy feet, bad habits, and unable to develop proper progressions and reads.
- Why would DJ waive his injury clause?
I will put myself in DJ's shoes for this one:
- Giants have drafted a new QB and they are moving on from me
- If they cut me this year I am looking for job, what job am I looking for? Probably somewhere where I think I will have a chance to play to show I am back from my injuries and I can be competent NFL starter. I will not be given an injury clause in my new contract with a new team.
- If I waive my clause what are the advantages? I get to play football Day1 if I am healthy enough to play. I already know the offense and I get half a season to show the rest of the NFL teams how good I am, I could have potential to be traded (not likely due to contact) or when I get released I could have multiple suitors and get the best contact and situation possible.
- If I do not waive my clause? The Giants do not play me at all because they dont want the risk of paying me over 40mil if I get hurt. So then the year is over and I hit the market, I have not played in over a year and have shown no proof of my abilities coming of an ACL injury with an already injury riddled history. I didn't even get into what these teams think of my playing ability.
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
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In comment 16480252 UConn4523 said:
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why did we hire the wrong guy? Genuinely curious how that works.
Maybe we hired the right guy who talked him out of a longer term deal with more guarantees?
Because then we hired a guy who can't convince his boss why his emotional attachments to players are bad for the team. Effective leaders manage up.
There's a limit to how much a person can "manage up" when the person above you owns the damn thing and can do whatever the hell he wants with it. John Mara was fucking BORN to own the New York Giants. The organization has had his family name on it for nearly a century.
I would argue that Schoen successfully managed up in not picking up the 5th year. If you happen to believe, as I do, that Mara's thumb was heavily on the scale for bringing back Jones and Barkley after 2022, you could argue that Schoen managed that too.
Nobody can say for sure, but maybe Mara would have wanted Jones locked up for 6 years instead of a deal that has a reasonable escape after 2?
If all of that is true, who the GM is really makes little difference. Mara does own the team. He also has terrible football instincts. It makes little sense to hire a guy to assemble a team and then tell him who you want on it. But would anyone be surprised if that is what was happening?
Obviously QBs bust every year, but sometimes you have to take a swing.
Imo, a more important point based on history is, sometimes the best QBs drafted aren't the first or 2nd taken.
There are plenty of examples, but just one recent one is 2018, when the best turned out to be the 3rd and 5th taken.
So, if Schoen and Daboll really like JMM, I would have no problem if they take him as the 4th QB at #6. If they REALLY like him, I would be ok with them trading up to get him.
I think there are many posters saying "QB or bust" so I think they do want to force the pick.