Under Pat Shurmur, Jones had a very productive rookie season. He threw for 24 TDs in just 12 starts and averaged 232.8 passing yards per game.
In 2019, it's not like he had a stellar offensive line with Solder, Hernandez, Halapio, Zeitler and Remmers. That offensive line allowed Jones to get sacked 38 times, a little over 3 sacks per Jones 12 starts.
Also in 2019, Jones flashed with some stellar games. Comeback win against the Bucs (364 total yards and 4 TDs), close losses against the Lions (335 yards and 4 TDs) and Jets (328 yards and 4 TDs). Then he had perhaps his best game in a win at Washington in week 16 where Jones had 364 yards and 5 TDs.
We all know what happened during the Joe Judge years. Multiple injuries and an inept offense for most of 2020 and 2021 seasons.
Finally, we then saw some more flashes with Brian Daboll in second half of the 2022 season. After a massive team record contract, Jones failed miserably in 2023. Again with multiple injuries and not to mention an even worst Offensive Line that allowed Jones to get sacked 30 times in just 6 starts.
With Daniel Jones entering his 6th season, I'm still 50/50 on what direction I want to see the Giants take in the NFL Draft tomorrow. Part of me thinks of all the games Jones flashed his ability and hopefully the O-Line improvements made in Free Agency. Maybe Jones can live up to his potential, especially if the Giants are able to add a true #1 WR in the draft.
Then the other part of me considers all the injuries Jones has suffered, twice with his neck. Plus with all the pressures and sacks he's taken, he's looked shell shocked at times. That's when I think Giants would be better off with a new QB without all that baggage of injuries, massive contract to live up to and poor overall play despite a lack of O-Line and flashes of his potential from time to time.
Either way they go, I can't wait to see what the Giants decide to do tomorrow!
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In comment 16483304 GuzzaBlue said:
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and offensive line play. Both have been rough seas since he's come into the league. A bad offensive line can destroy a career. From a IQ development perspective and just simply lost confidence in timing, having time to read the field and general ability to get in rhythm. If nothing gets better over time, how do you expect the QB to develop?
Also, other than Barkley, what weapons has he had. I'm not saying he's an All-Pro, but you can't tell me Brock Purdy would have been a top 15 QB in the same circumstances.
This is where my head is at still. I don't think his ceiling is more than a middle of the road starter but the rhetoric at this point is just dumb. "Look at how Taylor and Devito were better!!" lol
I mean Taylor and DeVito were statistically better so that’s not really incorrect. Jones looked the worst I have seen him in any season early last year. He looked lost out there.
Again, this has been reiterated ad-nauseum. Anyone with eyes could see that the team was under-prepared for the season, with some really poor roster decisions (especially on the OL). The best player on offense is lost in the 1st series of the 1st game, they put Ezeudu (EZEUDU!!) at LT. Jones gets basically the living shit kicked out of him that game and the subsequent games until he eventually gets seriously injured (twice). I mean come on man. I get it, everyone wants to blame the QB, but holy shit already. I'll reiterate he's likely a middle tier ceiling NFL QB, but again the rhetoric at this point is just stupid. At this point move on from the guy so at least we have a new guy for the BBI QB whisperers to rant about on every thread... lol
With the 2020 strike season, it's likely Shurmur even would've won the division that year if he hadn't been fired. There's a lot of who knows here, but I don't necessarily think it was fool's gold at the time.
Here you go.
That's a fair assessment. Not killing him, not anointing him. People are posting that Jones is the guy for 10-15 years...
And concerning Jones's performance against the Redskins, haven't you learned yet what games are real and which are bullshit? We went through this in '18 with people going nuts over offensive production against dead teams in the second half of the season.
This game against Philly was a real game, against real coaches (Schwartz's defense once again owning the Giants), against a real team that was playing for high stakes. That's what the season opener is going to look like next year...not the Redskins with an interim coaching staff.
I've said it in a bunch of threads...I like Jones, but the problems with his game are real: ball security and pocket presence. And I'm not sure they can ever get coached away...they weren't with Eli in 16 years.
I take umbrage with people calling this a great rookie season for Jones. It wasn't by any stretch. A 6.6 YPA, all the turnovers, and a 3-9 record as a starter don't scream "franchise QB" to me. Sorry.
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But I guess Jones didn't face any bad defenses in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023.
Defenses figured out how to defend him and he never adjusted. Daboll was able to build an offense utilizing his legs, but that wasn’t sustainable. Mitch Trubisky threw 6 TD’s in a game, yet no one is wondering what happened to him. Blake Bortles threw for 35 TD’s his first full year as a starter, and he’s been out of the league for a few years now.
DC’s in this league are pretty smart, they’re going to find ways to stop you. And if you can’t adjust, you won’t be in the league very long.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.
after his first year, the main concern was ball security and knowing when a pay was dead. and Barkley was unavailable a lot.
3 games, all from that rookie year, account for 21% of his passing touchdowns. He's remarkably bad at throwing the ball for yardage and touchdowns.
I was very high on Jones after that rookie year. It wasn't an objectively good season, but there was promise.
WR: Sterling Shepard, Golden Tate, Darius Slayton, Corey Coleman, C.J. Board.
Leading RB was Wayne Gallman w/682 yards
But I guess Jones didn't face any bad defenses in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023.
exactly. it's funny too because the same guys who will point to his stats as why stinks will explain away why any positive stats he's ever accumulated were wrong. in 2022 despite good EPAs/QBRs he wasnt throwing enough TDs and his YPG were too low. But at the same time his tds and YPG in 2019 were all bad defenses.
reality - he has been a middle of the road starter who at times has flashed better than that and at times flashed worse.
Is it even just a little bit possible that the sample last year was very small, that the team as a whole while Jones was playing was constantly behind and had the worst OL in the league (and mediocre receivers), putting Jones in a completely untenable position?
Is it possible that, behind a re-tooled OL, and with a true #1 receiver, he could be a good QB? BBI says no, but do we really know what Daboll thinks?
WR: Sterling Shepard, Darius Slayton, Kenny Golladay, Kadarius Toney, John Ross, C.J. Board, Dante Pettis
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be interesting to find some offseason threads on Jones from early 2020.
Here you go.
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When I said it was a fair read, I was talking about his review of Jones's entire season in his 3 closing thoughts: "He has a ways to go and I think he can be the guy, but I am not labeling him the guy yet."
That's a fair assessment. Not killing him, not anointing him. People are posting that Jones is the guy for 10-15 years...
And concerning Jones's performance against the Redskins, haven't you learned yet what games are real and which are bullshit? We went through this in '18 with people going nuts over offensive production against dead teams in the second half of the season.
This game against Philly was a real game, against real coaches (Schwartz's defense once again owning the Giants), against a real team that was playing for high stakes. That's what the season opener is going to look like next year...not the Redskins with an interim coaching staff.
I've said it in a bunch of threads...I like Jones, but the problems with his game are real: ball security and pocket presence. And I'm not sure they can ever get coached away...they weren't with Eli in 16 years.
I take umbrage with people calling this a great rookie season for Jones. It wasn't by any stretch. A 6.6 YPA, all the turnovers, and a 3-9 record as a starter don't scream "franchise QB" to me. Sorry.
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But the ability to throw TDs also went away.
Interestingly the things that should’ve been hardest to coach away were the things he was able to improve on over the next couple years.
Were they? It came at the cost of putting a governor on the entire offense. Consider what happened after Daboll took over in 2022. Jones threw that boneheaded pick in the season opener in Tennessee, and Daboll visibly lit into him on the sideline. After that he installed what was essentially a remedial passing offense the rest of the year.
When he tried to open it back up again in 2023, Jones's interception percentage was the highest of his career, and his fumbles (4 in 6 games) were back up too.
But the ability to throw TDs also went away.
some of that was intertwined - garrett and judge were so turnover conscious they effectively neutered the offense and jones.
over 2022 daboll started opening it up and we started to see some of the 2019 version once they found the trio of WRs that were producing (hodgins, james, slayton).
everything broke in 2023 but we saw a glimmer of what they had been hoping for against AZ in the 2nd half. problem was the construction was flawed so it didnt work against better teams. that arizona game was the only one in the first month where there wasnt pressure on more than 50% of snaps and jones broke under the pressure.
10 of those TD passes against Washington in 7 games.
His record is 5-1-1 vs Washington
In 8 games against Dallas he is 1-7
in those 8 games he has 4 tds and 5 ints
In 5 games against Philadelphia he is he is 2-3
in those 5 games he has 5 tds and 2 ints
19 of his 62 td passes are against his division rivals. The bulk of his success against Washington.
Odd number but 56 of his td passes have been in huddle up situations and just 6 in no huddle situations.
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In comment 16483419 Go Terps said:
Interestingly the things that should’ve been hardest to coach away were the things he was able to improve on over the next couple years.
Were they? It came at the cost of putting a governor on the entire offense. Consider what happened after Daboll took over in 2022. Jones threw that boneheaded pick in the season opener in Tennessee, and Daboll visibly lit into him on the sideline. After that he installed what was essentially a remedial passing offense the rest of the year.
When he tried to open it back up again in 2023, Jones's interception percentage was the highest of his career, and his fumbles (4 in 6 games) were back up too.
If you delete teh two Judge years I think you'd give him a pass for last year and think he's a promising player. But you obviously can't. Live and learn, I hope we learned.
The only thing that I know for certain is that Shurmur really wanted him to be the starter over Eli and that he was going to do what he could to put him in a position to succeed, but they could not win enough games. Coaches and schemes matter to player development and I don't know that Giants can afford losing another HC b/c of a mediocre QB.
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In comment 16483419 Go Terps said:
Interestingly the things that should’ve been hardest to coach away were the things he was able to improve on over the next couple years.
Were they? It came at the cost of putting a governor on the entire offense. Consider what happened after Daboll took over in 2022. Jones threw that boneheaded pick in the season opener in Tennessee, and Daboll visibly lit into him on the sideline. After that he installed what was essentially a remedial passing offense the rest of the year.
When he tried to open it back up again in 2023, Jones's interception percentage was the highest of his career, and his fumbles (4 in 6 games) were back up too.
the 2022 offense opened up as they found receivers that were competent. in the first 10 weeks the starters were sills (5), golladay (4), johnson (7). shepard and robinson started a few before they each went on IR.
after they claimed hodgins and inserted slayton/james full time the passing offense opened up, they threw more than they ran, and they scored more points.
that's why they tried to add better receivers in 2023 the problem was the execution. campbell and waller were busts, and obviously the OL exploded.
If you delete teh two Judge years I think you'd give him a pass for last year and think he's a promising player. But you obviously can't. Live and learn, I hope we learned.
a lot of people compared him to tannehill coming out and that's exactly what he was/how he ended up. his time as a nyg is very similar to tannehill's time in Miami. if he can stay healthy i wouldnt be surprised to see him have a better 2nd chapter somewhere where he has a better environment around him and like tannehill he may need to compete to get that shot.
If I had to pull a name out of a hat for that distinction, I'd pick Carr. Across some categories, this is how Carr and Jones compare.
nobody is saying jones didnt still have faults but that football is a team game isnt a narrative, it's reality. herbert is the most talented thrower ive ever seen and over his career his numbers have varied depending on how healthy his receivers and OL were. didnt make him any less talented.
While there was a time I would entertain that we needed better talent, it has become abundantly clear even where we had positive moments they were positive portions and not complete positives. Meaning, many detailed highlights show where we make a play within 7-9 yards that was designed for the ball to go 15-20 or was designed to take a shot elsewhere that Jones passed up on.
This past year the Seattle game cemented it for me. In two teams meeting with identical issues on the Oline Jones stunk up the joint, couldn't produce points and even GAVE points away.. That was it for me..
All the stats now bear fruit and truth, when you remove many reasons it becomes obvious he is what he is an it isn't going to get better.
It's not that complicated. Schoen and Daboll gave him the benefit of the doubt after 2022 where he was statistically unimpressive but managed to get to the playoffs. Now they want to move on. It's mot because he got ruined. He lacks the ability to do the job at a high enough level.
In 2022, I think a big part of why they moved to more pass first was the run game took a big dive which started with Seattle/Detroit games and continued through division play.
He was drafted because he was big and coached by the same man that coached Eli. A complete projection that was not based upon anything that happened on the field.
I think the way this organization approaches the position is deeply flawed. That doesn't mean it can't work out as it did with Eli, but I really struggle with the extent to which these guys look backwards to inform the future (as I suspect they are with Maye).
It's not that complicated. Schoen and Daboll gave him the benefit of the doubt after 2022 where he was statistically unimpressive but managed to get to the playoffs. Now they want to move on. It's mot because he got ruined. He lacks the ability to do the job at a high enough level.
+1. As Brad Pitt says in Moneyball, "if he's such a good hitter, why doesn't he hit good?"
He was drafted because he was big and coached by the same man that coached Eli. A complete projection that was not based upon anything that happened on the field.
I think the way this organization approaches the position is deeply flawed. That doesn't mean it can't work out as it did with Eli, but I really struggle with the extent to which these guys look backwards to inform the future (as I suspect they are with Maye).
If you want to just go by college stats, there are a lot of flaws with the guy you are hyping the most (Michael Penix Jr.). His numbers under pressure are actually worse than Drake Maye's and he is by far the most turnover prone of the top 6 QB's especially when it comes to the deep ball.
We will have the same level if we run back Daniel Jones and expect different results
Fool’s Gold continuing to do its job.
I said this earlier in the thread.
The conclusion is straightforward: Jones didn't play in an optimal situation, but Jones has flatlined as a passer.
He just never did his part and got better.
No it’s not. If I am Jones I want off the Giants. That would be best for fans, franchise and the player. No need to repeat what has been said here too many times by the same people. I hope we get a new QB and the franchise does a better job building the team.
His big problem now is he went made himself expensive.
The Giants will pay the 6th overall pick 29M over the next 4 years. They will pay Daniel Jones 36M in 2024.
The only difference is he passed more per game than in any other season (10 more attempts per game in 2019 vs 2022).
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He was unproductive - compared to other first round QBs over the last decade his college stats are very poor. His 6.2 college AY/A is brutal.
He was drafted because he was big and coached by the same man that coached Eli. A complete projection that was not based upon anything that happened on the field.
I think the way this organization approaches the position is deeply flawed. That doesn't mean it can't work out as it did with Eli, but I really struggle with the extent to which these guys look backwards to inform the future (as I suspect they are with Maye).
If you want to just go by college stats, there are a lot of flaws with the guy you are hyping the most (Michael Penix Jr.). His numbers under pressure are actually worse than Drake Maye's and he is by far the most turnover prone of the top 6 QB's especially when it comes to the deep ball.
The other irony is jones is exactly what Terps old QB philosophy used to be - a disposable running QB you let go after the rookie contract expires. Before he shifted it to reaching for guys like Malik Willis who had a flimslier resume and was an even bigger projection to the NFL than Jones. other than his cheery demeanor consistency of thought is not GT's thing.
Jones has always been more or less what he is - this is Bob Mcginn's report on him from 2019. There were many a discussion comparing him to Tannehill, and that's exactly what he ended up:
Fool’s Gold continuing to do its job.
Give me a break already. No one defending him in the last few posts thinks he is an upper echelon QB. It is funny though if you think about it, our assessment agrees more with Shane and Davoli to give him the contract than ThomasG, GoTerps, Et al. I'd agree with those guys over you guys literally every single time. On every single aspect of an NFL football franchise. Including their assessment on the QB. lol
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In comment 16483531 JoeSchoens11 said:
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In comment 16483419 Go Terps said:
Interestingly the things that should’ve been hardest to coach away were the things he was able to improve on over the next couple years.
Were they? It came at the cost of putting a governor on the entire offense. Consider what happened after Daboll took over in 2022. Jones threw that boneheaded pick in the season opener in Tennessee, and Daboll visibly lit into him on the sideline. After that he installed what was essentially a remedial passing offense the rest of the year.
When he tried to open it back up again in 2023, Jones's interception percentage was the highest of his career, and his fumbles (4 in 6 games) were back up too.
the 2022 offense opened up as they found receivers that were competent. in the first 10 weeks the starters were sills (5), golladay (4), johnson (7). shepard and robinson started a few before they each went on IR.
after they claimed hodgins and inserted slayton/james full time the passing offense opened up, they threw more than they ran, and they scored more points.
that's why they tried to add better receivers in 2023 the problem was the execution. campbell and waller were busts, and obviously the OL exploded.
But the Giants were 7-2 in their first 9 game (almost totally because of Barkley).
The Giants “opened up the offense” when Barkley got hurt in his 35 carry game, and went 2-5-1.
Oh, and Jones only threw for 200 yards or more 4 times in those 8 games and didn’t win any of them (0-3-1).
But the Giants were 7-2 in their first 9 game (almost totally because of Barkley).
The Giants “opened up the offense” when Barkley got hurt in his 35 carry game, and went 2-5-1.
Oh, and Jones only threw for 200 yards or more 4 times in those 8 games and didn’t win any of them (0-3-1).
weird they chose to extend jones over barkley. that was a real sophie's choice for GM mara.
Prescott, I believe, is going into his 9th year, I just saw Jerry Jones say he believes there's room for growth.
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But the Giants were 7-2 in their first 9 game (almost totally because of Barkley).
The Giants “opened up the offense” when Barkley got hurt in his 35 carry game, and went 2-5-1.
Oh, and Jones only threw for 200 yards or more 4 times in those 8 games and didn’t win any of them (0-3-1).
weird they chose to extend jones over barkley. that was a real sophie's choice for GM mara.
I wouldn’t say that is exactly accurate
They tried to extend Saquon, but his (now fired agent) messed that up which is why the DJ negotiations came down to the last minute
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In comment 16483882 sb from NYT Forum said:
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But the Giants were 7-2 in their first 9 game (almost totally because of Barkley).
The Giants “opened up the offense” when Barkley got hurt in his 35 carry game, and went 2-5-1.
Oh, and Jones only threw for 200 yards or more 4 times in those 8 games and didn’t win any of them (0-3-1).
weird they chose to extend jones over barkley. that was a real sophie's choice for GM mara.
I wouldn’t say that is exactly accurate
They tried to extend Saquon, but his (now fired agent) messed that up which is why the DJ negotiations came down to the last minute
not quite. they pushed to extend jones first knowing they preferred to tag barkley. then after getting jones extended a few months later they passed on extending barkley below the amount he ended up getting even though they were already committed to $10m gtd (that they paid him).
they did not prioritize extending barkley at any time after the bye week in nov 2022.
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In comment 16483898 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16483882 sb from NYT Forum said:
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But the Giants were 7-2 in their first 9 game (almost totally because of Barkley).
The Giants “opened up the offense” when Barkley got hurt in his 35 carry game, and went 2-5-1.
Oh, and Jones only threw for 200 yards or more 4 times in those 8 games and didn’t win any of them (0-3-1).
weird they chose to extend jones over barkley. that was a real sophie's choice for GM mara.
I wouldn’t say that is exactly accurate
They tried to extend Saquon, but his (now fired agent) messed that up which is why the DJ negotiations came down to the last minute
not quite. they pushed to extend jones first knowing they preferred to tag barkley. then after getting jones extended a few months later they passed on extending barkley below the amount he ended up getting even though they were already committed to $10m gtd (that they paid him).
they did not prioritize extending barkley at any time after the bye week in nov 2022.
Right
Barkley had the extension non the table first
He passed
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In comment 16483915 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16483898 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16483882 sb from NYT Forum said:
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But the Giants were 7-2 in their first 9 game (almost totally because of Barkley).
The Giants “opened up the offense” when Barkley got hurt in his 35 carry game, and went 2-5-1.
Oh, and Jones only threw for 200 yards or more 4 times in those 8 games and didn’t win any of them (0-3-1).
weird they chose to extend jones over barkley. that was a real sophie's choice for GM mara.
I wouldn’t say that is exactly accurate
They tried to extend Saquon, but his (now fired agent) messed that up which is why the DJ negotiations came down to the last minute
not quite. they pushed to extend jones first knowing they preferred to tag barkley. then after getting jones extended a few months later they passed on extending barkley below the amount he ended up getting even though they were already committed to $10m gtd (that they paid him).
they did not prioritize extending barkley at any time after the bye week in nov 2022.
Right
Barkley had the extension non the table first
He passed
he also had the same extension along with another option on the table from March 2023-July 2023 after Jones signed. their decision to not extend barkley had nothing to do with Jones, just like their decision to be more aggressive extending jones "down to the last minute" had nothing to do with barkley.
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supported giving him that god-awful contract for $160M.
Fool’s Gold continuing to do its job.
Give me a break already. No one defending him in the last few posts thinks he is an upper echelon QB. It is funny though if you think about it, our assessment agrees more with Shane and Davoli to give him the contract than ThomasG, GoTerps, Et al. I'd agree with those guys over you guys literally every single time. On every single aspect of an NFL football franchise. Including their assessment on the QB. lol
Well, that's fine Johnny. Expect on this particular QB assessment, you'd would be agreeing with the wrong guys.