I was wrong. I thought this was a QB draft. I haven't been invested in a draft like this since 2004. It made sense to me that Schoen & Daboll would take the opportunity to draft a lottery QB this year. But, Schoen always has talked about sticking to his process. That's exactly what he did.
There are some posters I need to credit who I've challenged in the lead up.
christian - you were spot on. Schoen didn't change course so quickly after the Jones contract last year.
bw - Yes, I now completely agree with you that Jones is Schoen's guy. I'm tired of the Mara narrative. I don't believe Mara was vetoing any QB pick.
Ryan - great call with McCarthy. You felt it was smoke since day 1.
So, where does this leave the team? Schoen said last night he's happy to have a cost controlled WR for 5 years with Nabers talent. It's as simple as that.
I think Schoen did try to get Maye. I believe he offered a 2025 first as well. But, ultimately he told us the following:
-He likes Jones/Lock more than Penix.
-He likes Jones/Lock more than McCarthy.
-He likes Jones/Lock more than Nix.
Of the 15 first round grades, I assume the only 3 which had first round grades at QB were Williams, Daniels & Maye.
The Jones contract was always consequential. It was a significant contract. This wasn't a cheap deal and the 2 year out still has a $22M dead cap charge. When Schoen said he trusted his process, there was no reason to not believe him. This is where I was wrong. The contract was significant enough and the prior medical issues not concerning enough to change course so soon.
I do think Lock has a chance to start. Schneider had no reason to lie - the Seahawks wanted him back. So, I expect a QB competition, but Lock will have to clearly outperform Jones with Jones clearly struggling. I wouldn't bank on it, but I think Lock will have his chance.
I no longer think Schoen is in any trouble to lose his job. I think he's got ownership buy in and taking a slower and more methodical approach. I respect guys like Sy, JonC and The_Mike a great deal, all of which see the value in a WR1 here. I don't think Schoen is getting fired any time soon.
Where to go at QB from here? I've got no idea. It will be fascinating to see if Jones gets restructured. If he doesn't, I do think that is telling. Unlike some on BBI, I don't think the QB position "takes care of itself" - it's going to be a big challenge. Increasingly, I think the next QB will be a veteran starter. After the Penix pick, I could see Kirk Cousins in 2025. Dak Prescott. Someone like that.
Lastly, the positive I can come up with - the Knicks build. Leon Rose often got criticized for being too patient and not doing enough. Well, now I think this is going to be a longer build and Schoen will be patient. It's clear he wanted Maye but he's not going to force anything else and stick to the board. Will that patience ultimately pay off? We'll see. But, Schoen has a process it seems.
"Man we really wanted to move on from Daniel but the Patriots just asked for way too much"
I mean c'mon, you can't be that naive
+1
Not gonna lie, things were getting bananas around here leading up to this draft. The conjecture, conspiracy theories, and ultimatums thrown around here every day were exhausting.
People who i figure were good posters jumped to so many conclusions vehemently it made this place not enjoyable.
Now that round 1 is over, it's good to take a step back. I think you nailed 1 thing about Schoen...the guy is ALL about the process. Period. This is a staff that takes calculated risks, but always believing in the process that gets them to those conclusions.
Eventually process is going to lead to wins...hopefully sooner than later.
Buckle up; I think Schoen has until the 2026 offseason to make this work.
Whether you agree with it or not, it really is this simple.
Unless you think the attempted trade up for Maye was a PR stunt, they know they have a QB problem. (BTW, such a PR stunt only hurts the psyche of Jones so I really doubt that was the play).
They had 15 players graded as first round talents. The only three QBs who they had graded were Williams, Daniels, and Maye.
Yep. The 'we should have reached to over draft a QB' crowd isn't happy today. Oh well.
I think he has a plan, its just a crappy one (in today's NFL)
He's going about things like this is a 4-5 year process.
These days, if you can't turn things around in 2 years, you suck at your job.
Quickest way forward is to get the QB position right.
Apparently, John (who has ZERO qualifications), doesn't understand that.
I believe Schoen knows Mara's preferences and leanings, but I don't believe Mara nixed any trade Schoen wanted to make. I think Schoen is very comfortable with Jones being the plan at QB until he isn't.
Where I differ is about Lock. There is no QB competition. They did not pay Jones what they did and pass on QB to give Jones' job away. If he is physically able to play he is the starter on this team and Lock is his backup. There is no competition unless Jones is a complete wreck in camp.
-He likes Jones/Lock more than McCarthy.
-He likes Jones/Lock more than Nix."
What it tells you is the Giants feel the team is better with Jones/Lock and Nabors for 2024 than any of your three options without Nabors. I think the #6 pick was more a commentary on Nabors than it was on those three QB's. I still think the Giants believe QB needs to be addressed but likely now not this year and Nabors proved too high potential to pass up for any of those QBs (that they may like more than Jones/Lock).
and [this is speculation] the cost to move up and get a QB they wanted was more than they were willing to pay
agreed - i dont know why so much time gets wasted on narratives. they arent writing a movie script, they are spending a tremendous amount of time evaluating and ranking players. it seems clear from yesterday this was how they had it ranked and they stuck to it.
Buckle up; I think Schoen has until the 2026 offseason to make this work.
If that's the case, I'd expect a Jones restructure. If not, he'll have to earn 2025 imo. It's clear though many on BBI were more concerned about Jones than Schoen.
They liked JJM, just not more than Nabers
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With him out of reach they were all in on Nabers. BPA.
Whether you agree with it or not, it really is this simple.
Unless you think the attempted trade up for Maye was a PR stunt, they know they have a QB problem. (BTW, such a PR stunt only hurts the psyche of Jones so I really doubt that was the play).
They had 15 players graded as first round talents. The only three QBs who they had graded were Williams, Daniels, and Maye.
I don't think they see themselves as having a QB problem. I think they saw an opportunity to get an elite QB prospect to replace their "good enough to win with" QB.
I take Schoen at his word that they are ok with the QB room they have in 2024.
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Seems more and more likely to me barring an absolute meltdown in 2024. I don't see them handing out huge dollars for Dak after already handing out huge dollars for Jones and presumably eating a 22 million dead cap hit. If they do bring it a rookie in 25', I still think they go into the season with Jones as starter initially to play out his contract.
Buckle up; I think Schoen has until the 2026 offseason to make this work.
If that's the case, I'd expect a Jones restructure. If not, he'll have to earn 2025 imo. It's clear though many on BBI were more concerned about Jones than Schoen.
I think they could potentially hold off on the restructure since his cap hit isn't as bad in 2025. I bet they would be thrilled to restructure him if he played above-average in 24 though.
It's why I think the veteran QB makes sense. But, Schoen isn't going to be on any hot seat imo. He's here for the next 5 plus years at minimum imo.
Mara is a guy who likes stability in the front office. Unless he falls flat on his face and embarrasses the franchise, I don't see Schoen going anywhere anytime soon. Daboll is different.
Let me change "happy" to "content."
I think they saw an opportunity to get better at QB with Maye. I don't think they have as big a problem there as many fans do.
"Man we really wanted to move on from Daniel but the Patriots just asked for way too much"
I mean c'mon, you can't be that naive
I dont believe they tried to get Maye. It was smoke. All it takes is for NE to say "yeah, well, we've had some talks with the Giants and Vikings for all kinds of rumors to fly and get everyone to turn on espn and keep it on. This is how the media works in America. Nobody heard shit.
I fully believe they pushed hard for Maye. But, 6 QBs taken in the top 12 and NYG wasn't one of them. What does that tell you?
I guess we'll never know, but would JJ have been the pick if the Chargers took Nabers? I doubt it.
One poster said they should have just taken a quarterback regardless. Teams don't draft a QB in the first round unless they really believe in him. McCarthy was there at #6, so that tell you how they feel about him. Pretty clear they wanted Maye.
Some others complain that it should have been Odunze, so they're feeling underwhelmed about the choice being Nabers.
Odunze? Nabers? They're both freaking great, it doesn't largely matter which of the two the Giants took, either would have been great, but you've decided to be underwhelmed. All I can say is go watch Belichick's analysis of Nabers. He's all over him.
Another complains that this is OBJ MkII. That's a reason for complaint? Okay, go get your head seen to. OBJ in his prime was an elite wide receiver.
Also, a point only a few have made: having Nabers now immediately makes Hyatt, Robinson and maybe Slayton better. It will open up the field for them.
Finally, I full acknowledge I may be wide of the mark here, but no one seems to consider that maybe Daboll can improve Drew Lock. Lock has a cannon for an arm, is erratic, but Lock throwing downfield to Nabers might be better than Jones doing so.
Anyway, on to day two. Really, some of you come across as committed to a glass half empty view of the Giants, regardless of what Schoen does. The draft has already effectively netted us Nabers and Burns. Not a bad haul so far.
^This.
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In comment 16490645 JonC said:
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With him out of reach they were all in on Nabers. BPA.
Whether you agree with it or not, it really is this simple.
Unless you think the attempted trade up for Maye was a PR stunt, they know they have a QB problem. (BTW, such a PR stunt only hurts the psyche of Jones so I really doubt that was the play).
They had 15 players graded as first round talents. The only three QBs who they had graded were Williams, Daniels, and Maye.
I don't think they see themselves as having a QB problem. I think they saw an opportunity to get an elite QB prospect to replace their "good enough to win with" QB.
I take Schoen at his word that they are ok with the QB room they have in 2024.
Couldn’t have said it better
As far as Schoen and "the process" I agree he has been given all assurances to take his time. However, the New York market will dictate, not Mara. Mara had no plans to let go of Judge until he did. And it might not be Schoen specifically, perhaps Daboll will find himself on the hot seat soon enough. Their messaging regarding QB throughout this process has been mixed and unclear.
Penix, McCarthy and Nix didn't go late round 1. They went 8, 10 and 12. It was obvious throughout this process they would. WRs to me are a dime a dozen and if you have a great one on a bad team (i.e. a team without a QB) you're still nowhere. This draft specifically has a lot of good day 2 upgrades at WR we could have dipped into.
Lastly, you brought up how I have mentioned Hooker in the past and my answer is, yes, I'd explore him as an option if the price was right. We are nowhere at the QB position. Our blue chip WR we just picked made headlines for pretty much saying so himself.
It tells me they likely had at least 2, maybe 3, QBs they were willing to move away from Jones for, but not 6.
We have a QB, you just don't like him.
can be we haven’t seen yet for a myriad of reasons.
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I personally don't think that teams happy with their QB situation try to trade up to #3 to take one.
I fully believe they pushed hard for Maye. But, 6 QBs taken in the top 12 and NYG wasn't one of them. What does that tell you?
I guess we'll never know, but would JJ have been the pick if the Chargers took Nabers? I doubt it.
Because McCarthy was clearly a smoke screen. They didn't have a 1st round grade on him.
Does that make them right? Of course not.
If Nabers was gone, the more interesting question is would they have traded down?
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We still have no QB.
We have a QB, you just don't like him.
Again, we don’t have a QB.
Acid, I would take the Mara axed the deal with a large grain of salt. Someone on a message board who I don't know told me someone at a party who he doesn't know claims to know someone inside the Giants org who gave him inside information about a trade that never actually happened. And that guy is now claiming that it would have happened but only didn't because of Mara. There's no way this can't be true, right?
You don't scout the entire QB class like the Giants did (have them visit, take them out to dinner, take full contingents to Pro Days) if you are "content" with your quarterback either.
Schoen said earlier that visiting/scouting heavily can also take guys off your board/move them down.
The only way the Giants don't address the QB position next offseason is if Jones has some sort of breakout season with no injuries.
This isn’t completely true. The team that was trying to trade up for JJM got him anyway, and traded up a spot to do so. The only QB needy team that passed on him for a non QB was the Giants.
Lots of misinformation out there. For all we know the Patriots could have been using us to drive up the price for another team
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wanted Maye. According to Stars and Stripes Schoen was willing to pay NE's asking price of multiple #1's, but Mara said it was too much. When that happened, Schoen decided that: Jones/Lock/Nabers > McCarthy, Nix, or Penix. That is a reasonable conclusion. Remember also that they apparently had an offer to trade down which they refused. That's how much they like Nabers.
Acid, I would take the Mara axed the deal with a large grain of salt. Someone on a message board who I don't know told me someone at a party who he doesn't know claims to know someone inside the Giants org who gave him inside information about a trade that never actually happened. And that guy is now claiming that it would have happened but only didn't because of Mara. There's no way this can't be true, right?
Yeah, it's very JtGiants-esque without the meltdown
You don't scout the entire QB class like the Giants did (have them visit, take them out to dinner, take full contingents to Pro Days) if you are "content" with your quarterback either.
Schoen said earlier that visiting/scouting heavily can also take guys off your board/move them down.
The only way the Giants don't address the QB position next offseason is if Jones has some sort of breakout season with no injuries.
Eric, I see your point but that’s part of the frustration. They recognize the problem and yet didn’t feel compelled enough to actually do something about it. To me, Nabers is a luxury pick. They could have leveraged a trade down and maybe still not have the QB but have some additional assets this year or next to show for it. I find it hard to believe the only solution they saw was to trade up for Drake Maye to a team that I personally never believed for one second would move off that pick. Their newly hired head coach basically said as much at his intro press conference.
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That is crystal clear. All these QB needy teams and there was not near the fireworks to get them as people thought, except --oh yeah, Maye. The guy the Giants wanted.
This isn’t completely true. The team that was trying to trade up for JJM got him anyway, and traded up a spot to do so. The only QB needy team that passed on him for a non QB was the Giants.
Yeah, they got him. They desperately tried to trade up for Maye, so that tells you something. They are a QB desperate team with 2 first round picks as ammunition sitting right along side two other QB desperate teams yet don't make a move to get ahead of us or out ahead of the other needy teams behind them until the pick right in front of them. That is a far cry from the trade up to #4 we were sold. Sound like they were at last ok to miss out if it came to that. There wan't the hot and heavy movement for JJ.
Lots of misinformation out there. For all we know the Patriots could have been using us to drive up the price for another team
Widely reported by legitimate sports reporters.
In their view, Nix, McCarthy, and Penix are far less likely to be impact players. That remains to be seen.
It's really that simple.
Just taking a position does not mean it is fixed. (Remember my list of pet peeves?)
It is not simply Jones versus the other QB's either imv. They picked the best player on their board.
There is a reason you here GM's always saying they took the BPA. Over time, that strategy works well if you execute.
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In comment 16490693 UberAlias said:
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That is crystal clear. All these QB needy teams and there was not near the fireworks to get them as people thought, except --oh yeah, Maye. The guy the Giants wanted.
This isn’t completely true. The team that was trying to trade up for JJM got him anyway, and traded up a spot to do so. The only QB needy team that passed on him for a non QB was the Giants.
Yeah, they got him. They desperately tried to trade up for Maye, so that tells you something. They are a QB desperate team with 2 first round picks as ammunition sitting right along side two other QB desperate teams yet don't make a move to get ahead of us or out ahead of the other needy teams behind them until the pick right in front of them. That is a far cry from the trade up to #4 we were sold. Sound like they were at last ok to miss out if it came to that. There wan't the hot and heavy movement for JJ.
Why would Minnesota make a move ahead of us if they only had to get to 10 to get JJM? You also have zero idea if they tried to get to 5 or 7 and were rebuffed. It’s clear 3 and 4 weren’t getting traded. What QB needy team was behind the Giants?
The Falcons just paid a QB, and obviously preffered Penix.
It could be both here. I'm sure he wanted Maye, but the cost was too prohibitive for him to gamble the team's future on it.
I wouldn’t be as worried about a QB if I thought we would only win 5 games this upcoming season. I think it will be more like 7-8. I think this team is better than last year and will have an easier schedule
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though. They clearly were in on trying to get Maye. Anything after that is up for debate but they wanted Maye. I suspect the interest in JJM was to try and cover their blatant interest in Maye..
It could be both here. I'm sure he wanted Maye, but the cost was too prohibitive for him to gamble the team's future on it.
If they traded a kings ransom for Maye, they would not have been able to build around him unless they hit on a skill player in the 3 rd this year or 2nd next
Maybe Penix straddles the categories, but his situation is complicated by injuries. I never felt NYGs solution to moving off an injury prone DJ was to draft an injury prone Penix.
In their view, Nix, McCarthy, and Penix are far less likely to be impact players. That remains to be seen.
It's really that simple.
Just taking a position does not mean it is fixed. (Remember my list of pet peeves?)
It just all depends how you define “impact”. I have no doubt Nabers will be excellent, I really don’t. Ultimately though, is an excellent wide receiver going to move the needle for a guy like Daniel Jones who was never that good to begin with and is completely shot now. Remember, Waller was supposed to help, Hyatt was supposed to help.
-Maye has a monster rookie season- Stroud like.
- Penix/ JJM/ Nix all flash major potential and play very well.
- Jones struggles badly and Nabers doesn't have a major impact.
- Neal struggles/ loses his job and KT is just okay.
- Giants win 6 games or less
You feel good about giving Schoen another offseason? I do not.
People can say whatever they want, I think they face major pressure this year to win with Jones.
A great draft shaping up for NYG future.
Supremely talented WR in Nabers. Check.
Remaining needs: CB, S, OL, DE/DT, RB, LB, TE*
15 picks to wait for our next starting CB and at least 5 are out there worth drafting.
We'll get our S here or still in FA. No worries.
We'll get an OL and probably an RB that might surprise late.
Edge is also deep and you need depth here. Hopefully we can find a contributor to spell Burns and Thibs as Oju doesn't suit up enough. Take best available DE or DT at slot Joe says.
Not a great LB draft but need serious depth here.
*Will Waller's divorce help put his mind back on football? If not, we'll have to pick one up here though it's unlikely to find one that can be a plus player. Always a nice piece of bling but not a many Kelces out there lol.
QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL. Ours seems improved(?) To have a top WR can put you over the top. We're not there yet, don't get me wrong. Keep building, Joe.
I'm giving Jones another season. If he's neck-injured again I'm out but if he could make the throws in 2022 he can do it now and we have a much better WR and OL rooms. OL improvement will hopefully remove some of the run plays for him as well. He's good at it but they can be career killers. Right now his legs make him valuable but mostly he has no choice because of the OL. If a talent like Barkley couldn't run behind our OL how can you expect any QB to sit in the pocket?
This is a draft. To take the leap from college starter to professional starter is huge. So many don't realize that. More than half of these college stars in rounds 1-7 will flame out within 3 years. Very few sure things out there.
-Maye has a monster rookie season- Stroud like.
- Penix/ JJM/ Nix all flash major potential and play very well.
- Jones struggles badly and Nabers doesn't have a major impact.
- Neal struggles/ loses his job and KT is just okay.
- Giants win 6 games or less
You feel good about giving Schoen another offseason? I do not.
People can say whatever they want, I think they face major pressure this year to win with Jones.
I absolutely think six wins or less with Jones struggling should send him packing. Can't use the roster excuse in year 3.
I'm happy they didn't reach for a QB that they didn't have highly rated.
this is the interesting question to ponder, if lac took nabers what was the pick? alt, odunze, or maybe jjm?
id guess odunze but im not entirely confident in that.
QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
-Maye has a monster rookie season- Stroud like.
- Penix/ JJM/ Nix all flash major potential and play very well.
- Jones struggles badly and Nabers doesn't have a major impact.
- Neal struggles/ loses his job and KT is just okay.
- Giants win 6 games or less
You feel good about giving Schoen another offseason? I do not.
People can say whatever they want, I think they face major pressure this year to win with Jones.
Schoen knew that when he drafted. What if the only QB's who look like anything this year are Williams and Daniels? What if Nabers looks like a stud but Jones does not and all of the other QB options that we had a shot at look no better than Kenny Pickett or Malik Willis?
-Maye has a monster rookie season- Stroud like.
- Penix/ JJM/ Nix all flash major potential and play very well.
- Jones struggles badly and Nabers doesn't have a major impact.
- Neal struggles/ loses his job and KT is just okay.
- Giants win 6 games or less
You feel good about giving Schoen another offseason? I do not.
People can say whatever they want, I think they face major pressure this year to win with Jones.
Only thing that would salvage it for me is if they bench a struggling, but healthy Jones.
Will they face pressure from Mara? TBD. As long as Daniel doesn't completely flop and we are on the "in the hunt" graphic in December, that might be enough
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
And, yes, I'm fine with them not reaching on a QB they didn't like, but they better be right in their assessment.
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In comment 16490835 GiantHead said:
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones doesn’t have one of the top LTs in the game?
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In comment 16490835 GiantHead said:
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones has one of the top Left tackles in the sport. He has also never sniffed what Stroud accomplished his rookie season.
Jones has zero excuses left. None.
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In comment 16490835 GiantHead said:
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
Tom Brady had Dante Scarneccia coaching his Oline and they were pretty damn good. Mahomes has some damn good linemen too
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Don't know how anyone for certain knows if we would have taken Maye if we traded up or if we were even that serious of players?
Lots of misinformation out there. For all we know the Patriots could have been using us to drive up the price for another team
Widely reported by legitimate sports reporters.
With no named sources, no specifics. Just reporters playing on people's emotions to boost ratings. None of the teams told these reporters what they were doing. None.
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In comment 16490850 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16490835 GiantHead said:
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones doesn’t have one of the top LTs in the game?
Thomas has not played a full season since his rookie year including missing 4 games in 2021 and 7 games in 2023. Tunsil has played in 4 Pro Bowls since joining Houston and played in 14 games last year (17 the year before but Stroud was not on the team then). If you ask almost every team they would take Tunsil over Thomas.
Maybe next year the next Charlie Conerly will be on the board when we pick.
One slight modification — Joe Schoen likes:
Jones/Lock/ Malik Nabers more than Penix.
Jones/Lock/ Malik Nabers more than McCarthy.
Jones/Lock/ Malik Nabers more than Nix.
The Giants are open to upgrading the QB position if they feel an upgrade is available.
The Giants are open to upgrading the QB position if they feel an upgrade is available.
Correct.
The only way the Giants don't address the QB position next offseason is if Jones has some sort of breakout season with no injuries.
I don't think I can believe that any longer.
There is another way the Giants don't address the QB position next offseasons, and that's if it unfolds just as this off-season has: there are one or two QBs in the class the Giants identify as elite, and they don't wind up in a position to draft either of them. They would then regard the other QBs as not having more potential than Jones.
The Giants are open to upgrading the QB position if they feel an upgrade is available.
The problem is too many on BBI have gone off the proverbial cliff in thinking that practically ANY QB in this draft is better or an upgrade than the alternative. It’s completely emotional now.
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The only way the Giants don't address the QB position next offseason is if Jones has some sort of breakout season with no injuries.
I don't think I can believe that any longer.
There is another way the Giants don't address the QB position next offseasons, and that's if it unfolds just as this off-season has: there are one or two QBs in the class the Giants identify as elite, and they don't wind up in a position to draft either of them. They would then regard the other QBs as not having more potential than Jones.
Exactly. And what you described is by far the most likely scenario. And that is one of the multitude of reasons why last night is so depressing
Maybe next year the next Charlie Conerly will be on the board when we pick.
It is a better plan than take a QB for the sake of taking a QB even though the scouts think he is a JAG and trade him two years later for a conditional late Day 3 pick like Pickett/Jones/Fields versus getting a player who some consider the best in the draft at an impact position. If I was the owner and you told me you were proposing dealing the 6th pick overall for a conditional late Day 3 pick in 2026 I would fire you before you even finished the phone call.
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In comment 16490769 Giantsbigblue said:
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Don't know how anyone for certain knows if we would have taken Maye if we traded up or if we were even that serious of players?
Lots of misinformation out there. For all we know the Patriots could have been using us to drive up the price for another team
Widely reported by legitimate sports reporters.
With no named sources, no specifics. Just reporters playing on people's emotions to boost ratings. None of the teams told these reporters what they were doing. None.
Did you watch the presser yesterday?
Everyone in the room knew it. And Schoen quickly wanted to move the conversation away from the topic.
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In comment 16490858 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16490850 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16490835 GiantHead said:
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones doesn’t have one of the top LTs in the game?
Thomas has not played a full season since his rookie year including missing 4 games in 2021 and 7 games in 2023. Tunsil has played in 4 Pro Bowls since joining Houston and played in 14 games last year (17 the year before but Stroud was not on the team then). If you ask almost every team they would take Tunsil over Thomas.
How does this explain Jones being a bad QB?
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In comment 16490872 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16490858 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16490850 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16490835 GiantHead said:
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones doesn’t have one of the top LTs in the game?
Thomas has not played a full season since his rookie year including missing 4 games in 2021 and 7 games in 2023. Tunsil has played in 4 Pro Bowls since joining Houston and played in 14 games last year (17 the year before but Stroud was not on the team then). If you ask almost every team they would take Tunsil over Thomas.
How does this explain Jones being a bad QB?
I am not denying that Jones is a bad QB and needs to be replaced. I am disagreeing that Stroud does not have a top OL.
Thomas has not played a full season since his rookie year including missing 4 games in 2021 and 7 games in 2023. Tunsil has played in 4 Pro Bowls since joining Houston and played in 14 games last year (17 the year before but Stroud was not on the team then). If you ask almost every team they would take Tunsil over Thomas.
Is Andrew Thomas not one of the top LTs in the NFL? The only game Thomas missed in 2022 was the final game of the season where they sat everyone so he had played a full season since his rookie year.
No more excuses for Dan.
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trying to see something easy to understand:
The Giants are open to upgrading the QB position if they feel an upgrade is available.
The problem is too many on BBI have gone off the proverbial cliff in thinking that practically ANY QB in this draft is better or an upgrade than the alternative. It’s completely emotional now.
Daniel Jones would have been QB 7 in this draft AND has a big contract. That's not emotional.
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Thomas has not played a full season since his rookie year including missing 4 games in 2021 and 7 games in 2023. Tunsil has played in 4 Pro Bowls since joining Houston and played in 14 games last year (17 the year before but Stroud was not on the team then). If you ask almost every team they would take Tunsil over Thomas.
Is Andrew Thomas not one of the top LTs in the NFL? The only game Thomas missed in 2022 was the final game of the season where they sat everyone so he had played a full season since his rookie year.
No more excuses for Dan.
and what happened when they only played 1 healthy series together in 2023?
jones record with thomas and barkley was dramatically different than without.
I think it is more accurate based on what you are saying to put it this way...
"The Giants are interested in moving on from Daniel Jones when the opportunity presents itself."
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In comment 16490893 mittenedman said:
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trying to see something easy to understand:
The Giants are open to upgrading the QB position if they feel an upgrade is available.
The problem is too many on BBI have gone off the proverbial cliff in thinking that practically ANY QB in this draft is better or an upgrade than the alternative. It’s completely emotional now.
Daniel Jones would have been QB 7 in this draft AND has a big contract. That's not emotional.
Not according to Sy's grades. He had Jones ranked about Penix and tied with Nix.
We know what Jones is, those saying we do not have not been paying attention. He is a guy who will occasionally have a big game against bad defenses. Otherwise, he is below average passer and a borderline starter. His greatest asset is his straight line speed, which is likely limited this coming year. He cannot read a defense. Why do we know this? When DeVito and Taylor actually started throwing the ball downfield we saw that guys like Robinson and Hyatt were not triple covered as some would lead you to believe. The Oline didn't look like a disaster when a career backup and UDFA actually got the ball out of their hands.
I think the Nabers pick was a very strong choice at a premium position. I applaud Schoen for not reaching for JJ if he didn't really have a top 10 grade on him. I also think the infrastructure is not in place because we do not have qb on the roster that will amplify his talents. My guess is this ends similar to OBJ and Barkley.
I think this team is at least three years away from a division title, with a new GM and head coach going all in for a qb in 26. Unfortunately I do like Schoen and Daboll, but this likely becomes a baby with the bathwater situation as Jones is a coach killer.
I think it is more accurate based on what you are saying to put it this way...
"The Giants are interested in moving on from Daniel Jones when the opportunity presents itself."
Word it however you want (and I understand why you are), but it's the same outcome. The Giants want to upgrade any position if the opportunity presents itself.
and what happened when they only played 1 healthy series together in 2023?
jones record with thomas and barkley was dramatically different than without.
Thomas is one of the best LT in the league.
If he plays a full year there are no more excuses for Jones.
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In comment 16490787 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 16490769 Giantsbigblue said:
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Don't know how anyone for certain knows if we would have taken Maye if we traded up or if we were even that serious of players?
Lots of misinformation out there. For all we know the Patriots could have been using us to drive up the price for another team
Widely reported by legitimate sports reporters.
With no named sources, no specifics. Just reporters playing on people's emotions to boost ratings. None of the teams told these reporters what they were doing. None.
Did you watch the presser yesterday?
Everyone in the room knew it. And Schoen quickly wanted to move the conversation away from the topic.
Not buying it. Shoen wanted to talk about the player they drafted. Thats how GMs do it.
The Giants are open to upgrading the QB position if they feel an upgrade is available.
If they didn't think they had an opportunity last night their evaluation skills are even worse than I thought.
Schoen keeps saying you can't shop hungry. They must be taking Ozempic. I don't think they're hungry at all despite being emaciated.
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and what happened when they only played 1 healthy series together in 2023?
jones record with thomas and barkley was dramatically different than without.
Thomas is one of the best LT in the league.
If he plays a full year there are no more excuses for Jones.
there are no excuses for anyone. they need to prepare like thomas may no play a full year. that was in theory one of the upsides to taking neal when they already had thomas.
their jobs are to win, just as they did at the end of the year even down to their 3rd string udfa qb.
it's easier to win with your best players healthy though.
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In comment 16490943 Eric on Li said:
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and what happened when they only played 1 healthy series together in 2023?
jones record with thomas and barkley was dramatically different than without.
Thomas is one of the best LT in the league.
If he plays a full year there are no more excuses for Jones.
there are no excuses for anyone. they need to prepare like thomas may no play a full year. that was in theory one of the upsides to taking neal when they already had thomas.
their jobs are to win, just as they did at the end of the year even down to their 3rd string udfa qb.
it's easier to win with your best players healthy though.
If only everyone thought that way, though. See, the original post.
Got it.
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In comment 16490962 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16490943 Eric on Li said:
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and what happened when they only played 1 healthy series together in 2023?
jones record with thomas and barkley was dramatically different than without.
Thomas is one of the best LT in the league.
If he plays a full year there are no more excuses for Jones.
there are no excuses for anyone. they need to prepare like thomas may no play a full year. that was in theory one of the upsides to taking neal when they already had thomas.
their jobs are to win, just as they did at the end of the year even down to their 3rd string udfa qb.
it's easier to win with your best players healthy though.
If only everyone thought that way, though. See, the original post.
which post?
Got it.
But it ain’t a cult. Haha.
They're paying Thomas.
They're paying Burns.
Thibodeaux is entering year 3.
Neal is entering year 3 (bust or not).
Robinson is entering year 3.
It's year 3 of the regime. I think Schoen just told us he's not drafting a QB. It's either Jones or the veteran market.
NYG fans should follow the Goff & Prescott negotiations. That's where this is headed if it isn't Jones in 2025 imo.
It doesn't line up to draft a rookie QB and wait for him to develop.
Schoen
They're paying Thomas.
They're paying Burns.
Thibodeaux is entering year 3.
Neal is entering year 3 (bust or not).
Robinson is entering year 3.
It's year 3 of the regime. I think Schoen just told us he's not drafting a QB. It's either Jones or the veteran market.
NYG fans should follow the Goff & Prescott negotiations. That's where this is headed if it isn't Jones in 2025 imo.
It doesn't line up to draft a rookie QB and wait for him to develop.
Schoen
Exactly, this roster will be fully built after this offseason. It may not be ready to compete this season (although I think it's better on paper than people think, the Ringer football people acknowledged this on their show this morning), but If Schoen has hit on enough of his moves, it should be ready by 2025. Please god no more "this was always a five-year rebuild" that seems to continually reset each offseason.
This is it. The expectation should be to eat at the grown ups table with Philly, SF, Dallas in the NFC.
(Spoiler alert, it's not going to happen). In reality we will be like the Saints and Raiders. The Steelers are our upside.
which post?
Daniel Jones also has one of the top LTs in the game and other high picks. The original commenter also said it doesn’t count for Jones because Thomas was hurt, while the entire interior of the Texans line also missed time last year.
They're paying Thomas.
They're paying Burns.
Thibodeaux is entering year 3.
Neal is entering year 3 (bust or not).
Robinson is entering year 3.
It's year 3 of the regime. I think Schoen just told us he's not drafting a QB. It's either Jones or the veteran market.
NYG fans should follow the Goff & Prescott negotiations. That's where this is headed if it isn't Jones in 2025 imo.
It doesn't line up to draft a rookie QB and wait for him to develop.
Schoen
almost every team in the NFL's timeline is the same - compete for the playoffs, even in year 1 if you've inherited a disaster like HOU last year or NYG/JAX in 2022. once you are a consistent playoff team you aim higher towards "contender".
in year 3 if you arent making the playoffs you are looking for your next job.
i dont mean this in an offensive way sean but you have a tendency to see things in a narrative way like the post yesterday that after yesterday it would be "their team". it was already almost entirely their team last year. in 2022 it was less their team and they still won 9 games. nfl rosters are very similar in quality. it is not college. the job is to win.
I trace a lot of my view on Schoen back to that 5th year option situation. That told me he was absolutely in charge of the Jones relationship moving forward. If Mara was leaning as hard as many suggest, I have no doubt Mara forces Schoen to exercise the option.
Instead, Schoen threw down the gauntlet on Team Jones and made 2022 a prove it year. And Jones did enough in 2022 to convince Schoen to offer the $160M deal.
I think last night was purely about Jones's health and the opportunity to buy insurance to cover that.
I posit that Schoen looked at Maye as a younger, healthier version of Jones and was willing to explore adding him. But I don't think it was really about a talent upgrade. When Schoen revealed two weeks ago that he went back to look at Jones's 2022 film to make sure he didn't miss anything, that told me he was very comfortable in bringing back Jones if healthy.
Because I don't care how talented Nabers might be, JMac and Penix are clearly more talented than Jones at the most critical position in sports. But Schoen didn't blink. His message is Jones is more talented than Penix, JMac, and Nix even with ALL of the injuries.
That is a loud an resonating message - to me.
Got it.
Smart teams use reporters to their advantage all the time. It’s what I was trying to say in my original post. It benefited the Patriots to say the Giants are interested in trading up so teams would get in a bidding war and drive up the price.
I always thought it never made sense for the Patriots to trade out of 3 unless they got their socks knocked off. They are more QB needy than us. For them to trade that pick it meant either that they though the QB there wasn't that good or they got way overpaid.
Don't draft a QB at this point; keep building up other positions.
I'll be rooting for Giants wins this Fall with Lock/Jones. I'm not super optimistic, but there is no other choice. Back the team and trust there is a plan in place.
I think it is clear Schoen thought Jones was really good in 2022, and can take them to playoffs again with health and some more weapons. If a really great prospect like Maye or Daniels is there he will go get him, but there are bigger needs on this team than QB.
Some folks are twisting themselves in knots trying to explain how a GM who knows his QB isn't very good keeps putting the team in that same QBs hands.
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which post?
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CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL.
Daniel Jones also has one of the top LTs in the game and other high picks. The original commenter also said it doesn’t count for Jones because Thomas was hurt, while the entire interior of the Texans line also missed time last year.
ok well im not sure why we are comparing to stroud specifically.
just checked thomas' game log in the last 2 years the NYG record with thomas is 14-13-1 (including postseason). even with the disaster that the rest of the OL has been aside from him.
record without him is 2-6 (jones was 1-3 as qb in those games, tyrod was 1-2, webb 0-1).
i think many giants fans have bagged on their better players for not doing more when in reality the problem has been their inability to successfully draft quality depth behind them. barkley's record the last 2 years when healthy was 16-15-1. 0-4 without him.
and no, im not putting .500 up on a pedestal. by year 3 they need to be progressing beyond that. middle of the road offense and middle of the road defense doesn't cut it. but that will happen if and only if they do a better job of adding/developing more quality players. if they keep getting nothing out high picks like neal and continue unable to find competent backup rbs, interior ol, etc they wont progress much even if the qb was stroud.
I think it is clear Schoen thought Jones was really good in 2022, and can take them to playoffs again with health and some more weapons. If a really great prospect like Maye or Daniels is there he will go get him, but there are bigger needs on this team than QB.
Some folks are twisting themselves in knots trying to explain how a GM who knows his QB isn't very good keeps putting the team in that same QBs hands.
Exactly. Schoen has also referenced Jones age many times. He's often referenced him being 25 when he had the win in Minnesota. I don't doubt that Penix & Nix being 24 impacted the evaluation.
I trace a lot of my view on Schoen back to that 5th year option situation. That told me he was absolutely in charge of the Jones relationship moving forward. If Mara was leaning as hard as many suggest, I have no doubt Mara forces Schoen to exercise the option.
Instead, Schoen threw down the gauntlet on Team Jones and made 2022 a prove it year. And Jones did enough in 2022 to convince Schoen to offer the $160M deal.
I think last night was purely about Jones's health and the opportunity to buy insurance to cover that.
I posit that Schoen looked at Maye as a younger, healthier version of Jones and was willing to explore adding him. But I don't think it was really about a talent upgrade. When Schoen revealed two weeks ago that he went back to look at Jones's 2022 film to make sure he didn't miss anything, that told me he was very comfortable in bringing back Jones if healthy.
Because I don't care how talented Nabers might be, JMac and Penix are clearly more talented than Jones at the most critical position in sports. But Schoen didn't blink. His message is Jones is more talented than Penix, JMac, and Nix even with ALL of the injuries.
That is a loud an resonating message - to me.
we are on the same page here.
-He likes Jones/Lock more than McCarthy.
-He likes Jones/Lock more than Nix.
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In comment 16491009 Eric on Li said:
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which post?
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CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL.
Daniel Jones also has one of the top LTs in the game and other high picks. The original commenter also said it doesn’t count for Jones because Thomas was hurt, while the entire interior of the Texans line also missed time last year.
ok well im not sure why we are comparing to stroud specifically.
just checked thomas' game log in the last 2 years the NYG record with thomas is 14-13-1 (including postseason). even with the disaster that the rest of the OL has been aside from him.
record without him is 2-6 (jones was 1-3 as qb in those games, tyrod was 1-2, webb 0-1).
i think many giants fans have bagged on their better players for not doing more when in reality the problem has been their inability to successfully draft quality depth behind them. barkley's record the last 2 years when healthy was 16-15-1. 0-4 without him.
and no, im not putting .500 up on a pedestal. by year 3 they need to be progressing beyond that. middle of the road offense and middle of the road defense doesn't cut it. but that will happen if and only if they do a better job of adding/developing more quality players. if they keep getting nothing out high picks like neal and continue unable to find competent backup rbs, interior ol, etc they wont progress much even if the qb was stroud.
The depth isn’t really relevant to there being no more excuses for Jones though. Players get hurt. Thomas may get hurt again, maybe Slayton misses time. The Giants added Nabers and 3 Olineman so far this offseason. There’s no more “he needs x” to succeed.
Put up the numbers worthy of your cap hit.
I trace a lot of my view on Schoen back to that 5th year option situation. That told me he was absolutely in charge of the Jones relationship moving forward. If Mara was leaning as hard as many suggest, I have no doubt Mara forces Schoen to exercise the option.
Instead, Schoen threw down the gauntlet on Team Jones and made 2022 a prove it year. And Jones did enough in 2022 to convince Schoen to offer the $160M deal.
I think last night was purely about Jones's health and the opportunity to buy insurance to cover that.
I posit that Schoen looked at Maye as a younger, healthier version of Jones and was willing to explore adding him. But I don't think it was really about a talent upgrade. When Schoen revealed two weeks ago that he went back to look at Jones's 2022 film to make sure he didn't miss anything, that told me he was very comfortable in bringing back Jones if healthy.
Because I don't care how talented Nabers might be, JMac and Penix are clearly more talented than Jones at the most critical position in sports. But Schoen didn't blink. His message is Jones is more talented than Penix, JMac, and Nix even with ALL of the injuries.
That is a loud an resonating message - to me.
Schoens job is on the line then. I don’t think he automatically gets a second “HC” or “QB” cycle.
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In comment 16490850 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16490835 GiantHead said:
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QB can wait. Sorry Jones haters. Show me an elite QB who didn't have a top OL.
Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Cj Stroud, Tom Brady, Justin Herbert, etc.
CJ Stroud has one of the top LT's in the game in Laremy Tunsil and other high picks on his OL. KC has spent extensively on the OL. Joe Burrow has missed lots of games due to his OL being unable to block. Herbert has won fewer playoff games than Daniel Jones.
Daniel Jones doesn’t have one of the top LTs in the game?
He was hurt when Jones was playing last year. The line was a mess. Be fair.
Schoens job is on the line then. I don’t think he automatically gets a second “HC” or “QB” cycle.
You are preaching to the choir. Totally agree.
Last night was the second big opportunity for Schoen to pivot away from Jones. Instead, he put even more eggs in the basket.
Yep. The only QB in the history of the NFL to have excuses made for him because he didn’t have his freakin RB in some games now no longer has that RB he so desperately relied on to make him look good. Now what?
Nabers versus QB's available and the impact on 2024 season.
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Schoens job is on the line then. I don’t think he automatically gets a second “HC” or “QB” cycle.
You are preaching to the choir. Totally agree.
Last night was the second big opportunity for Schoen to pivot away from Jones. Instead, he put even more eggs in the basket.
I don't disagree that Schoen's job should be on the line, I just don't think it will be.
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if Barkley isn't playing, I have some bad news for you...
Yep. The only QB in the history of the NFL to have excuses made for him because he didn’t have his freakin RB in some games now no longer has that RB he so desperately relied on to make him look good. Now what?
They just drafted their new Barkley last night.
Let's see if they turn him into their new Kadarius Toney...
The depth isn’t really relevant to there being no more excuses for Jones though. Players get hurt. Thomas may get hurt again, maybe Slayton misses time. The Giants added Nabers and 3 Olineman so far this offseason. There’s no more “he needs x” to succeed.
Put up the numbers worthy of your cap hit.
he put up numbers worthy of the contract he got in 2022, he didnt in 2023. if we make 0 excuses for either can we accept that as fact?
in terms of $ jones is going to be somewhere between qb 13-15 by the time the season starts. would you sign for this right now in 2024?
4k passing + rushing yards,
22 passing + rushing tds,
6 ints (lowest int% in nfl)
6th best QBR
7th best EPA
that was his 2022 season in 16 games, just numbers, 0 excuses either way.
I trace a lot of my view on Schoen back to that 5th year option situation. That told me he was absolutely in charge of the Jones relationship moving forward. If Mara was leaning as hard as many suggest, I have no doubt Mara forces Schoen to exercise the option.
Instead, Schoen threw down the gauntlet on Team Jones and made 2022 a prove it year. And Jones did enough in 2022 to convince Schoen to offer the $160M deal.
I think last night was purely about Jones's health and the opportunity to buy insurance to cover that.
I posit that Schoen looked at Maye as a younger, healthier version of Jones and was willing to explore adding him. But I don't think it was really about a talent upgrade. When Schoen revealed two weeks ago that he went back to look at Jones's 2022 film to make sure he didn't miss anything, that told me he was very comfortable in bringing back Jones if healthy.
Because I don't care how talented Nabers might be, JMac and Penix are clearly more talented than Jones at the most critical position in sports. But Schoen didn't blink. His message is Jones is more talented than Penix, JMac, and Nix even with ALL of the injuries.
That is a loud an resonating message - to me.
Schoen’s message is that Jones and Nabers is more valuable moving forward and than JJ, Penix and Nix without Nabers. Can’t just leave Nabers out of the equation altogether.
I don't disagree that Schoen's job should be on the line, I just don't think it will be.
I can buy that, too.
I think we are in unchartered waters here. A lottery QB getting a sixth season with his original team despite never having anywhere near a great season. It's incredible...
Tua and maybe Lawrence get extended?
There’s no reason for him not to be around 3800-4000 passing yards. Even Howell did that last year.
A repeat of 2022 probably has the Giants picking 6th again. They won’t have the smoke and mirrors of the first 6 weeks of 2022 to keep them afloat.
They just drafted their new Barkley last night.
That is a very interesting way of looking at it.
Are you concluding that WRs are now just as commoditized as RBs?
Got it.
Intelligent people ignore what people say and focus on what they do. All teams use the beats this time of year to plant shit. I think the Giants executed exactly what they were attempting to do.
I think Nabers was the number 1 player on their board and they did everything they could to disguise it.
Very happy about that.
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The depth isn’t really relevant to there being no more excuses for Jones though. Players get hurt. Thomas may get hurt again, maybe Slayton misses time. The Giants added Nabers and 3 Olineman so far this offseason. There’s no more “he needs x” to succeed.
Put up the numbers worthy of your cap hit.
he put up numbers worthy of the contract he got in 2022, he didnt in 2023. if we make 0 excuses for either can we accept that as fact?
in terms of $ jones is going to be somewhere between qb 13-15 by the time the season starts. would you sign for this right now in 2024?
4k passing + rushing yards,
22 passing + rushing tds,
6 ints (lowest int% in nfl)
6th best QBR
7th best EPA
that was his 2022 season in 16 games, just numbers, 0 excuses either way.
No that doesn't warrant the 18-20% cap hit. I'm moving on without question even with the 20 million dead cap hit the following year.
You need more from your QB to consistently win and ultimately contend. You can easily find that production elsewhere for a fraction of the cost.
Not a comparison of Allen/Jones but when Diggs was added, JA went from 3100 yards to 4500 yards. Diggs: 127c/1535y/12.1
I am hoping for just over 4k yards and a big improvement with the RB production in the run game with more use of TE's.
If the plan is to limit the QBs responsibility and build a great team around him, fine. It's not the best plan, but it does have logic. Don't pay $40 M for that. It's a $10M job. And draft guys in the middle rounds so you can train them. They can do the job for $2 M
- Don't exercise the 5th year option
- Reverse course - sign him to long term contract
- Invest heavily in the Pre Draft capital to research QBs
This plan is all over the place
That unsustainable low TO rate is driving the good all in one metrics that Jones cultists love to point to.
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They just drafted their new Barkley last night.
That is a very interesting way of looking at it.
Are you concluding that WRs are now just as commoditized as RBs?
Not quite, but it's getting there.
And regarding Nabers specifically my prediction is that his impact won't nearly be what the fans make it out to be.
But hey I could be wrong. Maybe they score 27 PPG this year and I look like a dumbass.
I think it is more accurate based on what you are saying to put it this way...
"The Giants are interested in moving on from Daniel Jones when the opportunity presents itself."
"When the absolutely perfect and 100% guaranteed opportunity presents itself" may be more accurate
- Don't exercise the 5th year option
- Reverse course - sign him to long term contract
- Invest heavily in the Pre Draft capital to research QBs
This plan is all over the place
bw nails it imo. Once Schoen signed Jones, the plan was clear. Schoen dared Jones to perform in 2022, and he met Schoen's expectations.
It's time we all believe what Schoen tells us.
Tua and maybe Lawrence get extended?
and goff. rodgers is below him but i think that's artificial bc of the trade, he extended at $50m+ and the contract is still active. russ' dead money is higher. i think dak may be tied with him or below him but his hit is $60m this year.
there's no perfect apples/apples way to do it but i think by the end of this offseason he will be close to the midpoint.
There’s no reason for him not to be around 3800-4000 passing yards. Even Howell did that last year.
A repeat of 2022 probably has the Giants picking 6th again. They won’t have the smoke and mirrors of the first 6 weeks of 2022 to keep them afloat.
why are we comparing him to a non-running qb?
lamar threw for fewer yards/ypg than howell last year too. for his career lamar averages 185 passing yards per game + 61 ypg rushing = 245 total. jones career average is 209 pypg + 32 rypg.
twisting stats doesn't make jones lamar jackson any more than he's sam howell (who threw for slightly more yardage but with 3x as many turnovers 21 ints).
Lamar still threw for 3700 yards last year, which isn’t far off from the 3800-4000 threshold I laid out, and if he played week 17 he would have been in the 3800-4000 range. If you want to compare running QB to “running QB”. The difference is, defenses don’t respect Jones’ running game like they have to do Lamar’s.
From the second half of 2022 on the league has done pretty well to shut down Jones ability to run.
It’s not asking too much for Jones to be in the 3800-4000 range as a passer alone.
and like i said rodgers/wilson sort of factor in somehow since they both signed at $50m+, were active contracts when Jones signed, and remain "alive" contracts now, they just got modified. Denver is eating $85m of dead money for RW the next 2 years which could end up more than jones gets from the nyg.
Why would a repeat of Jones’ 2022 year be acceptable?
Lamar still threw for 3700 yards last year, which isn’t far off from the 3800-4000 threshold I laid out, and if he played week 17 he would have been in the 3800-4000 range. If you want to compare running QB to “running QB”. The difference is, defenses don’t respect Jones’ running game like they have to do Lamar’s.
From the second half of 2022 on the league has done pretty well to shut down Jones ability to run.
It’s not asking too much for Jones to be in the 3800-4000 range as a passer alone.
it's not asking too much and nowhere did i say he cant/shouldnt be expected to do it.
you are choosing an arbitrary single stat and trying to make a hyperbolic comparison to howell as an excuse to say that what he did in 2022 wasn't good enough when in reality the difference isn't that big and if you look at the numbers, as he improved over the season he showed he could pass for the exact yardage you are looking for.
in the second half of 2022 when barkley slumped and they found 3 decent receivers they attempted more passes and jones threw for more yardage than he did early in the season (including per attempt, and including more tds, so not just empty volume).
he averaged 225 ypg in the last 8 games at 7 ay/a which is exactly what you say you are looking for. maybe lets just bring this full circle and agree that's a perfectly fair expectation for him year since he's shown he can do it? no excuses?
I think the issue might be with the word "reasonably". It appears that regarding QB it's full bloom love or bust. I'd place the odds on Jones being the starter on opening day 2025 over 50%, and only that low because of his neck.
You’re completing missing the point, it’s not comparing him to Sam Howell. The only QBs who started 16 or 17 games who didn’t hit 3800 passing yards were Lamar who missed by barely over 100 yards, and Bryce Young.
So again, Jones 2022 numbers wouldn’t be acceptable. If he’s getting starting QB money he should be able to hit the bottom of the starting QB passing yard list, regardless of what he does as a runner.
You’re completing missing the point, it’s not comparing him to Sam Howell. The only QBs who started 16 or 17 games who didn’t hit 3800 passing yards were Lamar who missed by barely over 100 yards, and Bryce Young.
So again, Jones 2022 numbers wouldn’t be acceptable. If he’s getting starting QB money he should be able to hit the bottom of the starting QB passing yard list, regardless of what he does as a runner.
im not missing the point you are, but ill give it one last try.
would you take his 2022 numbers but throwing for 225 ypg instead of 210? 225 ypg = 3825 yards.
i told you in my previous post that's a perfectly reason expectation. +15 ypg passing by itself is statistically almost meaningless, so meaningless it's literally the 3 extra attempts = 2 extra completions they shifted to in the 2nd half of 2022 even when they didnt have nabers/hyatt/robinson that didnt change any observer's opinions of jones by much, but if that's the arbitrary metric hill you want to die on fine with me.
so no excuses, 2022 numbers but with 3800+ passing yards, is that a fair expectation?
Looks like he's tied for 10th. At signing he was tied for 7th in the major categories.
In the interim, some guys have moved out, some in.
If Jones has a solid year in 2024, I'd be shocked if he didn't get a new deal or hold out, and be squarely back in the top 10.
Also, your comment that he sees Jones/Lock>jjm,penix,Nix is missing a crucial piece. He sees Jones/Lock and Nabers as better than Jones/Lock/JJMorPenixorNix.
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he's tied for 12th in aav with stafford and dak. tua, goff, and maybe lawrence extensions still to come this offseason.
Looks like he's tied for 10th. At signing he was tied for 7th in the major categories.
In the interim, some guys have moved out, some in.
If Jones has a solid year in 2024, I'd be shocked if he didn't get a new deal or hold out, and be squarely back in the top 10.
im not a statistician but if there are 3 guys tied for 10th and 12 players total isnt the common ranking of the 3 tied for 10 to be t-12th?
and again 3 more possible extensions to come that will all be higher, and 2 players with artifact contracts still hitting caps that were in total not just a little more but $50m AAV that were at the time of signing jones last year the top 2 QB AAVs.
are cap games more important to the conversation or some common sense? aaron rodgers and russell wilsons contracts that are currently paying them were clearly bigger than jones' correct?
But Daboll is the first coach since Coughlin to get a third year, a poor year might mean getting fired, Jones is getting the balance of the 82M in guarantees, and is the presumptive starter.
Seems like the guy to me.
If Jones hit 3800 passing yards with still only 22 total touchdowns, that likely still wouldn’t be enough to make the Giants successful.
3800 yards
32 total TDs
Turnover rate that’s slightly higher than 2022 given it’ll take more shots downfield, but lower than 2019.
That should be the bare minimum expectation for Jones.
Schoen’s message is that Jones and Nabers is more valuable moving forward and than JJ, Penix and Nix without Nabers. Can’t just leave Nabers out of the equation altogether.
When you have an agenda like bw, you most certainly leave that fact out...
Since he's being paid tenth most, maybe a good baseline would be 10th in yards, TDs, etc. I'm including rushing since that is a major component of Jones' game. That would be, based on 2023 numbers:
10th: 4734 yards, 30 TDs (again, combined passing+rushing)
15th: 3918 yards, 25 TDs
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-and-receiving-yards
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/total-touchdowns
Why would a repeat of Jones’ 2022 year be acceptable?
It absolutely would not be acceptable.
Since he's being paid tenth most, maybe a good baseline would be 10th in yards, TDs, etc. I'm including rushing since that is a major component of Jones' game. That would be, based on 2023 numbers:
10th: 4734 yards, 30 TDs (again, combined passing+rushing)
15th: 3918 yards, 25 TDs
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-and-receiving-yards
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/total-touchdowns
Pretty inline with what I’ve been saying. A repeat of 2022 would not be a good outcome for the Giants. He’s supposed to be improving while on the new contract.
Since he's being paid tenth most, maybe a good baseline would be 10th in yards, TDs, etc. I'm including rushing since that is a major component of Jones' game. That would be, based on 2023 numbers:
10th: 4734 yards, 30 TDs (again, combined passing+rushing)
15th: 3918 yards, 25 TDs
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-and-receiving-yards
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/total-touchdowns
this is basic but perfectly reasonable.
his 2022 combined ypg was 245 (*17 games) = 4165
his 2022 combined td per game were 1.375 (*17 games) = 23.375
increase the passing yards +15 per game = 4400
by week 1 there will be 12-15 QBs being paid by teams who signed or traded for them on contracts that were higher AAV.
these are all very basic parameters for assessing his performance if we want to keep it simple and not argue "excuses" either way. for any bad stat that may increase (turnovers) any good stat will have to increase (ypg, tds, whatever).
if every stat goes in the toilet like 2023 that will be not good - and to get us back OT with the thread, apparently schoen/dabs are comfortable enough betting their jobs on that not happening.
and again 3 more possible extensions to come that will all be higher, and 2 players with artifact contracts still hitting caps that were in total not just a little more but $50m AAV that were at the time of signing jones last year the top 2 QB AAVs.
are cap games more important to the conversation or some common sense? aaron rodgers and russell wilsons contracts that are currently paying them were clearly bigger than jones' correct?
In school I was taught the trick 'if you and I tie for the fastest, we tie for first not second.'
If comp order is a proxy for confidence, Jones is comfortably in the confidence zone.
From opening day 2023, he's straddled the top 3rd highest paid starting QBs. He might dip by a slot or two this year. But if he has a good year he'll certainly be back in next year.
What his compensation is not, is a vote of no confidence.
YAY US
5k Yards and lose
NFW
My hope is that I go into each week thinking we can win and the games are competitive.
This describes 2022.
I want to win SBs yes but you usually don't go from shit to SB.
At the end of 2022 Jones was described as an ascending player by many.
They signed him to the contract.
The same people that flipped out about the contract are the same people flipping out today.
It didn't go the way they thought it should.
Apparently they want to try again with some protection.
I am hoping they are right.
I would have taken McCarthy.
They have more information than I.
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My 2 cents on what expectations for Jones should be.
Since he's being paid tenth most, maybe a good baseline would be 10th in yards, TDs, etc. I'm including rushing since that is a major component of Jones' game. That would be, based on 2023 numbers:
10th: 4734 yards, 30 TDs (again, combined passing+rushing)
15th: 3918 yards, 25 TDs
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/rushing-and-receiving-yards
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/total-touchdowns
this is basic but perfectly reasonable.
his 2022 combined ypg was 245 (*17 games) = 4165
his 2022 combined td per game were 1.375 (*17 games) = 23.375
increase the passing yards +15 per game = 4400
by week 1 there will be 12-15 QBs being paid by teams who signed or traded for them on contracts that were higher AAV.
these are all very basic parameters for assessing his performance if we want to keep it simple and not argue "excuses" either way. for any bad stat that may increase (turnovers) any good stat will have to increase (ypg, tds, whatever).
if every stat goes in the toilet like 2023 that will be not good - and to get us back OT with the thread, apparently schoen/dabs are comfortable enough betting their jobs on that not happening.
One other note, QBs playing outdoors in the northeast historically haven't put up the passing numbers to match those playing in domes or warm/nice weather cities. Expectations of passing yards probably need to be adjusted down for a QB playing in the winds of the meadowlands.
If Jones craps out in 24, I would bet the Giants use that soon to be available money from Jones and sign a vet QB. Highly likely some decent or better vet QBs will be available either via FA or trade.
Let's say they go 7-10 this season. Jones has ups and downs but not enough ups to warrant anymore faith, that's a team ripe for a bold move at QB.
The options are slim in the vet market.
With all due respect, there is nothing reasonable about this take other than they tried to move up, were rejected BY THE Pats, and pivoted.
We need to stop aligning so much credibility or credence to a poster's inside take. Especially some new guy who literally joined up this month. Not that this matters. Entertaining any so called scoop is one thing. Building an entire narrative and belief system on it is kind of silly or worse.
If Mara is blocking the GM from making a bold move at QB why the fuck even bother. And I have news for you, Schoen wouldn't bother either. HE likely never even comes here in the first place if he knew the owner would QB cock block him at every turn.
This shit needs to be put to bed.
The options are slim in the vet market.
Yeah, it's really Dak or bust for 2025, because I've heard Goff is about to sign an extension. This leads me to believe that Jones won't have to get far to play himself into being the 2025 starter.
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I don’t think Lawrence will be available for trade. Maybe Goff if the Lions like Hooker?
The options are slim in the vet market.
Yeah, it's really Dak or bust for 2025, because I've heard Goff is about to sign an extension. This leads me to believe that Jones won't have to get far to play himself into being the 2025 starter.
A poor season could also mean he’s the starter in 2025 which is terrifying.
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Schoens job is on the line then. I don’t think he automatically gets a second “HC” or “QB” cycle.
You are preaching to the choir. Totally agree.
Last night was the second big opportunity for Schoen to pivot away from Jones. Instead, he put even more eggs in the basket.
Didn't you imply or flat out say that Mara forces Schoen's hand in regards to Jones and the QB?
I'll answer for you. You did. Numerous times. Which kind of makes this post a bit......inconsistent.
Didn't you imply or flat out say that Mara forces Schoen's hand in regards to Jones and the QB?
I'll answer for you. You did. Numerous times. Which kind of makes this post a bit......inconsistent.
Not for Jones - no. I have consistently said Schoen owns the Jones contract/decision.
Russell Wilson will probably hit the FA market again.
some players deeper into contracts could become available as buy lows (kyler and watson come to mind).
cousins and/or penix could shake free if the other wins the job.
baker, carr, geno could all get cut.
carolina new regime could decide to give up on bryce young.
lawrence could become available if they dont want to extend him. or if pederson gets fired and they bring in a new HC.
the best place to get a QB will always be the draft but more and more we are seeing meaningful starter veteran movement when there used to be none.
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I don’t think Lawrence will be available for trade. Maybe Goff if the Lions like Hooker?
The options are slim in the vet market.
Yeah, it's really Dak or bust for 2025, because I've heard Goff is about to sign an extension. This leads me to believe that Jones won't have to get far to play himself into being the 2025 starter.
I'm not so sure. As I think on this more, I do think there needs to be more nuance in the discussion. There are a few things we know:
1. Lock was told he would be competing just a job when he signed here. Seattle had zero reason to lie, they wanted him back.
2. NYG tried to trade up for Maye.
3. Jones in 2024 would have to stay healthy AND play himself onto a $47M cap hit on 2025.
4. NYG was stuck with Jones in 2024 no matter what financially.
JonC and Rickey both have said Nabers has nothing to do with Jones. We'll see.
I think Schoen and Daboll like Jones for 2024, but him playing on that 2025 cap hit will be a difficult task for Jones imo.