This isn't meant to be a negative thread. I watch Nabers and his talent jumps at you. Daboll said yesterday that the team needs generators, he's certainly one of them. There is no doubt that this team needs blue chip talent and Nabers is that.
The Giants drafted Beckham a decade ago and he was also a generator. He was the offense in 2016 coupled with a strong defense. However, Beckham's record with NYG from 2014-2018:
--31-49 (0-1 in the playoffs)
In 2018, the Giants drafted Barkley who was also considered blue chip talent and just got a contract from a well run team. Barkley's record here from 2018-2023:
--34-64-1 (1-1 in the playoffs)
Both players dealt with injuries. To be fair, Beckham missed most of 2017 and Barkley missed just about the entire 2020 season.
Ultimately, the team did nothing with Beckham & Barkley despite the talent.
I know teams shouldn't base their decisions based on prior regimes. I hope things are different here for Nabers. I don't want him getting frustrated when he's not getting targets as we started to see with Beckham in 2018.
I'm sure most will say the OL play will ultimately determine how well this goes. What do you think? Can this be different?
The Giants legitimately could have won with Beckham if they had a more complete team.
They were nowhere close to winning with Barkley.
Football has never been a single player game.
Entire WR room must improve....as one player can be covered, 3 player will be harder....4 players even harder.
QB must throw it.....must have trust and time.
OL must block for more than 3 seconds
Defense must keep the opposing offensive off the field.
Football has never been a single player game.
Entire WR room must improve....as one player can be covered, 3 player will be harder....4 players even harder.
QB must throw it.....must have trust and time.
OL must block for more than 3 seconds
Defense must keep the opposing offensive off the field.
George, I'm sure you're happy that the Giants still have their draft picks next year,
Blaming the exceptional players for the team’s bad records doesn’t make any sense. It should be easy to find other culprits. Injuries, low overall team talent, and coaching all immediately come to mind.
I don’t ever hear similar complaints about other great players contributing to our poor records. If we were able to draft Alt, would you have created an OP of ‘How does Alt not turn into another AT’?
In the case of drafting Odell Beckham and Saquon Barkley, the narrative was the Giants need at the LOS. In Beckham's case, it was Aaron Donald who went 1 pick later and Zack Martin who went 4 picks later. In Barkley's case, it was Quenton Nelson who went 4 picks later.
In any event, to answer your question: "How does Nabers not turn into another Beckham or Barkley?"
Maybe the answer is: Because history does not always repeat itself!
Blaming the exceptional players for the team’s bad records doesn’t make any sense. It should be easy to find other culprits. Injuries, low overall team talent, and coaching all immediately come to mind.
I don’t ever hear similar complaints about other great players contributing to our poor records. If we were able to draft Alt, would you have created an OP of ‘How does Alt not turn into another AT’?
How was a blaming them? My entire point was despite their talent, it didn't move the needle in wins.
So to your point, how we get ensure Nabers doesn't turn into another wasted high end offensive player like OBJ and SB? By building a well-rounded team. Under JS and Dabs:
In 2022, we drafted 11 players, 6 were def players
In 2023, we drafted 7 players, 4 were def players
In 2024, we drafted 6 players, 3 were def players
Out of 24 total picks, 13 were on the defensive side of the ball. Now are they all guaranteed to be all-pro players? No, that would be unrealistic. But from stars to role players to bench warmers, you cannot say that the front office hasn't tried to be balanced in their team building. The more they build the team the right way, it'll increase their chances of success and ultimately not wasting a talent like Nabers.
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as was SB for his one healthy year. We should all be hoping Nabors plays somewhere close to a prime OBJ and rookie SB. And most importantly. as you mentioned, stays healthy.
Blaming the exceptional players for the team’s bad records doesn’t make any sense. It should be easy to find other culprits. Injuries, low overall team talent, and coaching all immediately come to mind.
I don’t ever hear similar complaints about other great players contributing to our poor records. If we were able to draft Alt, would you have created an OP of ‘How does Alt not turn into another AT’?
How was a blaming them? My entire point was despite their talent, it didn't move the needle in wins.
I stand by the culprits:
Health. Hopefully Wellman helps in that regard, we can’t always be the outlier.
Talent. This one I still struggle with. Optimistically, our dline is locked in for a while and is one player away from being great and our secondary just got a boost. If our oline comes together we may be ok there and our wrs should be good. We could be quality qb-play away from turning the corner.
Coaching. I’m hoping this is the difference from the dark years. We retained good coaches and seem to have found good replacements for the ones who are justifiably not here.
Now, I would have been accepting of the fact, that the Giants took several steps back.....in the hopes of Maye becoming a top 5 NFL QB...and if that does happen and NE has another run like with Tom Brady....that would suck....again TBD.
It would really suck if the Vikings, Atlanta, Denver get to Super Bowls.....as we could have drafted anyone of them....without mortgaging next year.
Hell, I still bemoan that the Giants "old Green Bay coach" wanted Mahomes and nothing was done about it,...granted 20/20 hindsight.
I am not opposed to improving the QB position especially if it reset the QB cap impact!
But, To be honest my opinion is not that important...neither is yours,
I believe the 5 players selected have improved the roster..filled holes....and I hope improves players around them,
yes, having a full arsenal of picks next year is important...especially if the team sucks.
I would hate to be Carolina....watching the Bears draft their future "Mahomes" with Carolinas pick.
Washington I think got better....the Eagles just keep reloading..and already have 10 picks next year...very frustrating!
I hope the Cowboys have fallen back a bit....
Do the Giants have QBs on their roster that can win playoff games?.....you can't say no....unless, you have amnesia and Of course, they have to play better.
The Giants are getting better....that Defense is close. The WR room took a massive step forward. Can this new OL coach fix something that has been broken for 10+ years?
I think I want the same thing as yo..Super Bowl Championships!
Have a defense that gets the ball back
Yes, 95% of us wanted a QB. Yes, 95% of us want an All Pro at every OL position.
WR is a premium position - they got one of the best in the draft. It helps whomever is QB. Nabers, Slayton, Hyatt, Robinson is a pretty decent group - very, very fast. Perhaps Theo Johnson gives them a weapon in the middle. Won't need to hope Hodgins can get open this year.
THE thing that will help Nabers the most is if Bricillo can correct the OLine. Things like keeping the QB standing vs running for his life or on his back in 2.0 seconds.
Yes, they need a QB - all but 5 of us know that. Couldn't get one this year that they wanted.
They are one of 53.
The issue with this is that not all QBs are plug and play in all situations. Take Purdy for example. Does he have the same success if he went to NO instead, or is he a function of the right guy in the right system?
McCarthy could go kill it in MIN, but that doesn't mean he would have been the right guy here.
Football has never been a single player game.
Entire WR room must improve....as one player can be covered, 3 player will be harder....4 players even harder.
QB must throw it.....must have trust and time.
OL must block for more than 3 seconds
Defense must keep the opposing offensive off the field.
All the evidence so far would indicate the opposite is true.
The 2024 Giants are built very much the way those teams were built. We have one guy on the field you have to defend. If you can’t, we can beat you. If you can, then we probably lose.
You can either try to build a team with multiple weapons and supplement with a QB who is simply a ball distributor, or you can try to get a QB who can turn ordinary players into weapons (like Eli did for a few years).
I don’t know what Schoen’s strategy is for this offense. We are right back to having a single weapon with a bunch of other guys. Robinson and Hyatt are nice players, but no defensive coordinator is spending time trying to figure out how to shut them down. Devin Singeltary is not a question that needs an answer. And none of these guys will become that with a below average QB.
The 2024 Giants are built very much the way those teams were built. We have one guy on the field you have to defend. If you can’t, we can beat you. If you can, then we probably lose.
You can either try to build a team with multiple weapons and supplement with a QB who is simply a ball distributor, or you can try to get a QB who can turn ordinary players into weapons (like Eli did for a few years).
I don’t know what Schoen’s strategy is for this offense. We are right back to having a single weapon with a bunch of other guys. Robinson and Hyatt are nice players, but no defensive coordinator is spending time trying to figure out how to shut them down. Devin Singeltary is not a question that needs an answer. And none of these guys will become that with a below average QB.
While I am not sure of the RB position, I think you are not correct with the WRs. Nabers certainly is the real deal, but discounting Robinson, Slayton and Hyatt is being dismissive. I will grant that Hyatt needs to improve, but Robinson was pretty explosive out of the slot and if Slayton is the #3 or #4 WR, that is a pretty good player to be the #3 WR and possible #4.
Hyatt is the guy that needs to step up.
Hell, I still bemoan that the Giants "old Green Bay coach" wanted Mahomes and nothing was done about it,...granted 20/20 hindsight.
I would hate to be Carolina....watching the Bears draft their future "Mahomes" with Carolinas pick.
How would Mahomes have done behind the Giants' offensive line over the past 6 or 7 years? They may have had a small handful more wins, but the record would still be miles under .500 and Mahomes would likely be "chronically-injured" as Dimes has been; just as with Dimes, the pitchforks would be out to dump him and draft a better QB.
Personally I am neither pro- nor anti-Dimes, but I don't think any QB could have had success operating behind an offensive line that's been bottom-three in the league for years, and with generally replacement-level WRs over that time.
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Hell, I still bemoan that the Giants "old Green Bay coach" wanted Mahomes and nothing was done about it,...granted 20/20 hindsight.
I would hate to be Carolina....watching the Bears draft their future "Mahomes" with Carolinas pick.
How would Mahomes have done behind the Giants' offensive line over the past 6 or 7 years? They may have had a small handful more wins, but the record would still be miles under .500 and Mahomes would likely be "chronically-injured" as Dimes has been; just as with Dimes, the pitchforks would be out to dump him and draft a better QB.
Personally I am neither pro- nor anti-Dimes, but I don't think any QB could have had success operating behind an offensive line that's been bottom-three in the league for years, and with generally replacement-level WRs over that time.
Suggesting Mahomes would possibly be marginally better than Jones under the same circumstances shows that you have a very, very strong bias towards making excuses for Jones’ career. There is absolutely nobody around the league or fans of other teams who would agree with that statement. Nobody.
The addition of Nabers puts everyone else into their respective roles.
Nabers becomes our 1, Slayton as our 2, Robinson as our 3 and Hyatt / Hodgins as our 4/5. It changes the whole dynamic of our wide receivers.
Take a look at 2018. They had obj and Barkley. That was it. After obj was traded, it was only Barkley as a legitimate threat.
Prior to Barkley. It was primarily obj. They had cruz until he got hurt. Shepard contributed.
At no time did the giants have legitimate depth to compliment a playmaking wide receiver or running back.
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In comment 16497013 George from PA said:
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Hell, I still bemoan that the Giants "old Green Bay coach" wanted Mahomes and nothing was done about it,...granted 20/20 hindsight.
I would hate to be Carolina....watching the Bears draft their future "Mahomes" with Carolinas pick.
How would Mahomes have done behind the Giants' offensive line over the past 6 or 7 years? They may have had a small handful more wins, but the record would still be miles under .500 and Mahomes would likely be "chronically-injured" as Dimes has been; just as with Dimes, the pitchforks would be out to dump him and draft a better QB.
Personally I am neither pro- nor anti-Dimes, but I don't think any QB could have had success operating behind an offensive line that's been bottom-three in the league for years, and with generally replacement-level WRs over that time.
Suggesting Mahomes would possibly be marginally better than Jones under the same circumstances shows that you have a very, very strong bias towards making excuses for Jones’ career. There is absolutely nobody around the league or fans of other teams who would agree with that statement. Nobody.
Oh.
Unfortunately, I think we’ve improved enough outside of QB to be more middle of the pack going forward. This means picking somewhere in the middle of the first round most years and potentially not being in position to draft the QB of our choosing… which could further push back the QB reset (seems we need to be in full bloom love to pull the trigger).
So, to answer the OP, Nabers’ career will likely resemble Beckham’s until we find a real QB. I think he’ll have an immediate impact but our offense and overall team will be held back from any chance at real success in the short term. Whether that extends into the long term depends on if we upgrade QB.
I have seen that posted by several people, and all it says is that you don’t think QB is a difference making position in the NFL which I don’t understand.
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Would couldn't have done better than "daniel jones" under the same circumstances. It's deliberate lying and you know it.
I have seen that posted by several people, and all it says is that you don’t think QB is a difference making position in the NFL which I don’t understand.
I was just having this argument with someone on this board last night. QB is the most important position in sports and people just can’t accept the fact that Jones ain’t it.
I never said "the QB position doesn't make a difference;" no need for the strawman. What I said was that Mahomes would have won a few more games over the past decade, but nothing that really would have moved the needle appreciably. When you are throwing to Darius Slayton and a WR group comprised of other teams' castoffs and you have the worst offensive line in the league which results in the defense already being in the backfield as soon as the ball is snapped, it's an impossible situation for any QB.
Would I have been happy had the NYG brass deemed J J McCarthy the guy to take the Giants to the next level? Of course I would have. Evidently they decided the best option at this point in time was to select Nabers and stick with Dimes at QB, so I will watch every Sunday and root for them to win.
I never said "the QB position doesn't make a difference;" no need for the strawman. What I said was that Mahomes would have won a few more games over the past decade, but nothing that really would have moved the needle appreciably. When you are throwing to Darius Slayton and a WR group comprised of other teams' castoffs and you have the worst offensive line in the league which results in the defense already being in the backfield as soon as the ball is snapped, it's an impossible situation for any QB.
Would I have been happy had the NYG brass deemed J J McCarthy the guy to take the Giants to the next level? Of course I would have. Evidently they decided the best option at this point in time was to select Nabers and stick with Dimes at QB, so I will watch every Sunday and root for them to win.
Are they a terrible offensive line because jones has no feel for pressure and continually misses open receivers or are they just bad? How many off script plays did Maholmes and Allen make as their pocket broke down? There is no such thing as a perfect pocket in the NFL. Outside of Travis Kelce, you could make a strong argument his receivers are no better than the giants.
I know you mean well, however you don't have to read the post.
This is a fan forum that discusses a particular team. Ad nauseam.
.
Both sides are right to a degree.
Mahomes on the Giants probably wouldn't have as much success as he has on KC. But
Still would prefer to take my chances.
the team's record is on the coach + gm who choose all 53 players not any 1 of them.
severely diminished old obj played a big role winning a SB with mcvay off waivers. if daboll is the next mcadoo or shurmur or judge then the team will similarly continue to suck.
if daboll is the next mcvay or shanahan they will win and nabers can be part of that.
The Knicks trade of Porzingas in and of itself didn’t move the needle at all. The Knicks return was virtually meanness. They undersold KP. Most hated the trade. Yet, what the Knicks did after that trade has set them up rather nicely. It’s what the Knicks did after the trade that mattered.
Picking Nabers was an absolute no brainer unless you’re a fucking weirdo with an ax to grind. Best player available and fills a huge need.
It doesn't happen infrequently. As ridiculous as it is, it's a steady line of defense for many Jones supporters.
And did I see another thread comparing Jones to Troy Aikman the other day?
And between people who follow the NFL and people who recognize that Daniel is a backup QB
And between people who follow the NFL and people who recognize that Daniel is a backup QB
Very high. Many of the same people who defend Jones as being really good but having no help say Bryce Young is a bust after one year with potentially an even worst supporting cast. The love they have for Jones is because of the jersey he wears.
You strike me as pretty nasty. Not sure what you've added to the board aside from snarky responses. If you don't enjoy my threads, no need to read them.
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Jones cultists and people who only watch Giants games.
And between people who follow the NFL and people who recognize that Daniel is a backup QB
Very high. Many of the same people who defend Jones as being really good but having no help say Bryce Young is a bust after one year with potentially an even worst supporting cast. The love they have for Jones is because of the jersey he wears.
This is not support for Jones in any way, shape or form. But if you go by that logic, let me explain to you what fans of other teams thought of Eli. I worked with people from all around the country, and while they say he played great in both Super Bowls, he was viewed as mediocre to just above average QB.
He must be found and then sacrificed on Eric's front lawn.
The prayer is Carmen Bracillo is the best OL coach since Pat Flaherty
The dream is Schoen's 5 FA acquisitions on the OL make a positive impact
The wish is Nabers is the next OBJ/J'Marr Chase
And finally the desire is Daniel Jones is well a real QB and the guy that flashed great QB when things go right
All very fair.
In the case of drafting Odell Beckham and Saquon Barkley, the narrative was the Giants need at the LOS. In Beckham's case, it was Aaron Donald who went 1 pick later and Zack Martin who went 4 picks later. In Barkley's case, it was Quenton Nelson who went 4 picks later.
In any event, to answer your question: "How does Nabers not turn into another Beckham or Barkley?"
Maybe the answer is: Because history does not always repeat itself!
It was ALWAYS a lazy take. The Giants currently constructed have two at worst top 5 players at both lines. They are nowhere near a Super Bowl contender. Only player where you can say having a top player at makes you a Super Bowl contender is QB.
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In comment 16497761 Jerry in_DC said:
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Jones cultists and people who only watch Giants games.
And between people who follow the NFL and people who recognize that Daniel is a backup QB
Very high. Many of the same people who defend Jones as being really good but having no help say Bryce Young is a bust after one year with potentially an even worst supporting cast. The love they have for Jones is because of the jersey he wears.
This is not support for Jones in any way, shape or form. But if you go by that logic, let me explain to you what fans of other teams thought of Eli. I worked with people from all around the country, and while they say he played great in both Super Bowls, he was viewed as mediocre to just above average QB.
Much of the time he was absolutely those things. That view isn’t wrong. He is loved here because of the great memories he delivered in the biggest moments, but he was never consistently a top-5 QB.