Before the draft someone (sorry to not give credit to the poster, I don’t remember who) started a thread asking what we wanted to see out of this draft, my answer was evidence there is a long term strategy.
From what I saw here, there is. It may not be optimal for some, but we hired Schoen and either have to trust him or find a new team. I won’t root for another team so I’m going with the former.
My thoughts on the long term strategy:
Starting off with QB. While we didn’t acquire one in this draft, I think enough has been reported where we can comfortably say The Giants tried to trade up and draft Drake Maye. They would not have done this if they viewed Daniel Jones as the franchise QB or long term starter. Like it or not, right now Daniel is an expensive bridge QB. I would expect the same long hard look at QB’s next year that our front office did this year.
I believe they view the 3 seasons (and 2 drafts) left on Daniel’s contract as their timeframe to find another QB. I don’t think they’ll force a pick next year either unless things go even more awry than this season.
Moving on, for the offensive side of the ball we signed 5 OL in FA and drafted 0, in some way I view this as the organization conceding that they don’t evaluate college OL well. I wonder out loud if the scouting teams will be changed around to accommodate this, maybe bringing in a OL specialist. I’m thinking the plan is to play the vets while the young players we have develop.
On skill positions, Schoen wants to build a team with an even balance of fast and quick players. Nabers, Hyatt and even Theo Johnson can get vertical and stretch the field. If a QB has any time at all we have some hard guys to defend deep. This should complement and open things up for players like Robinson and our 5th RD pick Tracy who is fun to watch in space.
The strategy with defense is clear, rush the passer. So far Schoen’s biggest investments have been pass rushers, using his highest draft pick on Thibodeaux and making his biggest splash in FA (via trade) by acquiring Brian Burns. Clearly getting to the QB is priority, we have 3 guys that can do it, I’d still like another that can step up.
In the secondary he clearly values intellegence over athleticism in the middle of the field, guys like Okereke and Nubin fit this bill. I still can’t figure out what he looks for in a corner as the players we’ve drafted have been all over the map physically and athletically.
Regarding timing, I think winning in 2022 was the worst thing for this franchise. We started a rebuild and delayed it a year because we saw ourselves as further ahead than we were. While I saw one of the beats refer to Schoen’s draft as very “win now” I fully disagree. The Nabers pick may have been a need, but we may not have the chance at a blue chip WR like that for years. When I look at a lot of our other picks, they matched needs, but we had needs everywhere expect LT and Nose guard…
Either way, I don’t think this thing is going to turn around fast. They’re going to play Jones whether we like it or not, but the end is coming. Mara has no more excuses if he fails this year. We’ve added 5 OL and WR that’s far better than one he’s played with in his entire career. At the very least Schoen has taken away a lot of the excuses.
I will disagree with the OL assessment. I believe that they still believe in JMS, Ezeudu and Neal. I think they are hoping that Carmen Bricillo can figure out what is wrong with them and what went on before.
The FA OL were brought in to give Bricillo time to get to teaching those guys. If it turns out there is nothing there, then they address it next year. If Bricillo can sort out these guys out, then they will not to go crazy in the draft. Runyan and Eluemunor can play.
But I agree, that the 1st year screwed up the original plan or perhaps skewed thr thought process.
we all know they've spent 4 picks on the OL, including a first and 2x day 2's. in addition to thomas they just signed runyan and elumeanor.
people spend way to much time contemplating QB and not enough on the rest of the roster. the OL and D need to start showing improvement. it is year 3.
if they cant make progress on those things this year after 3 drafts and tons of money spent, how confident are we they should be the ones doing more of both going forward?
I agree with Eric above, the picks need to hit and they need to be competitive.
They're 15-18-1 (1-1 playoffs) two years in. They should be competing for a playoff spot this year.
This year he'll have Nabers / fully recovered Wan'dale / 2nd year Hyatt / Slayton (dangerous #4).
Maybe even a good OL if Schmitz and Neal get their shit together, and Bricillo actually is good.
I don't want to get greedy and look for a reasonable OL AND skill players. Is that possible?
There's even a chance Daboll takes over the offense/play calling. That might help too.
Maybe Jones will shock us all and actually play well with good circumstances? They've been trying to get him some help for 5 years, they just haven't. Everything they've tried - from Golladay, Toney, Rudolph, Parris Campbell and Waller - flopped, all on its own.
If you're served a shit sandwich for 5 years, you've still never had a good meal.
I think we as Giant fans are so used to having seasons over by Halloween that we expect it.
My best guess, Schoen is implying patience and multiple players away until they're swimming in the deep end of the pool in the NFC. To me, this is the NFC title game/super bowl.
But, a wild card appearance? That should be the expectation now based on his moves and I think he'd agree. The 7 seed is typically around 8-9 wins. I think that's where they are.
I wanted QB addressed as well, but I don't think the Giants are as bad as people make them out to be. I think Daboll could navigate a similar year to 2022.
It’s just playing things out until you’re replaced.
I think he knows that he will need an elite QB to win championships but until he has an avenue to get one he is gonna build the team around an open QB spot.
If nothing else the team may look better to a vet QB that wants to move somewhere next year.
Play out that timeline, even an optimistic version. Usually with a QB, he's mediocre in year 1, solid in year 2, and he's got it in year 3. Obviously everyone is different, but that's a pretty normal timetable.
So we're saying it's probably 28 or 29 before we're really competing? And that's if the next QB is good.
I wonder how many people in the building who don't have Mara blood will be around by then.
I think not drafting an OL is part concession but part impatience - as in we need this fixed ASAP and don’t have time for more OJT. The whole O imploded last year when the OL did. They know they need more points and Nabors is a key piece, but so it getting at least average line play. For good or ill, Saquon is not here to make a guy miss in the backfield (or to try and bounce one instead of driving up in there). So it’s got to start up front and they were not rewinding that disaster with just a rookie or two. OHara has talked about how OL are not coming out as prepared now, and take more time to learn. It’s not time we can afford given we have EN and JMS in learning mode already.
Also, I think part of the reason CB is all over is we just changed DCs and what they look for may have altered. Wink wants big press guys who are on and island. SB uses more zone.
Play out that timeline, even an optimistic version. Usually with a QB, he's mediocre in year 1, solid in year 2, and he's got it in year 3. Obviously everyone is different, but that's a pretty normal timetable.
So we're saying it's probably 28 or 29 before we're really competing? And that's if the next QB is good.
I wonder how many people in the building who don't have Mara blood will be around by then.
Spot on. I said in another thread I don’t see how reasonable minds can think the Giants will be competing for a division before 2027. Unfortunately I think both Schoen and Daboll becomes casualties of that time frame. Jones is a coach killer. I don’t see how any highly sought after coach comes to this organization with Jones under center if it comes to Daboll being fired.
fuck Schoen and fuck anyone who tells me to find a new team. i will bitch and moan until they get their shit together or i’m dead, whichever comes first.
right now we are the laughingstock of the league, regardless of whether Schoen has a long term strategy. if you don’t see that, you’re part of the problem, Bitey. you being level headed doesn’t make Schoen any smarter. it just gives Mara more cover to allow Schoen to continue fucking up.
people spend way to much time contemplating QB and not enough on the rest of the roster. the OL and D need to start showing improvement. it is year 3.
The problem with this is that it just opens things up to always add an excuse. Don't get the QB until you get the OL etc.
It's probably indirectly crippling the Giants from moving on with Jones too.
So we get these - as SY puts it - MAYBEs-- and year-over-year we are going to keep having to hear the excuses that they can't take a QB.
The thing sis - we're The Giants - we're supposed to be a physical football team.
Play out that timeline, even an optimistic version. Usually with a QB, he's mediocre in year 1, solid in year 2, and he's got it in year 3. Obviously everyone is different, but that's a pretty normal timetable.
So we're saying it's probably 28 or 29 before we're really competing? And that's if the next QB is good.
I wonder how many people in the building who don't have Mara blood will be around by then.
Exactly. A poor year and the fans are going to be ready to storm MetLife and Louis XVI all of BD, JS, and Mara. This season has the real possibility of being very ugly and costing lots of people their jobs.
Did we really start a rebuild? Schoen was hamstrung in year one by the cap vise Gettleman left behind. It was tread water and the draft. And a successful season. Which we tried to build upon...and failed. Improvement didn't get delayed because Schoen said, 'yeah, we're good enough'. It delayed because efforts to improve didn't bear fruit.
The worst thing about winning is that it lead to a bad decision on the QB. One we're stuck with, and have basically made him a lame duck starter.
I don't buy the notion of rebuild. There's constantly trying to improve. Gettleman hamstrung Schoen in year one, but Schoen has steadily made this team his own.
He preached patience when he got here. After an unexpectedly good year he decided we were closer than he expected and hit the gas pedal and signed a poor QB to a lucrative deal based on what would be an off year for most NFL QBs. After 2023 blew up from the opening drive, he decided we were going back to patience per his last meeting with the media.
We did the same confused dance with Barkley - offer him a long term deal,and when he turns it down stop talking to him and tag him. Then in a lost season we hold on to him through the trade deadline, and then let him walk for nothing. Was there a plan there with Barkley, or just changing his mind based on the last data point?
I don’t see a “strategy” necessarily in the draft other than trying to pick good players, which is basically everyone’s strategy. He tried to fix the Oline through the draft the past two years, and free agency this year. He is open to getting a QB and had a plan, and when that plan didn’t work, we went back to patience.
Is there a plan to get a QB in 2025, or is it what we did in 2024 which is to identify a single prospect, and if not attainable, figure it out in 2026?
There may be a strategy and of course it will not be disclosed publicly. I don’t see this team building an identity or building around some core belief. It seems like Schoen goes back to the drawing board each time facts move.
we all know they've spent 4 picks on the OL, including a first and 2x day 2's. in addition to thomas they just signed runyan and elumeanor.
people spend way to much time contemplating QB and not enough on the rest of the roster. the OL and D need to start showing improvement. it is year 3.
if they cant make progress on those things this year after 3 drafts and tons of money spent, how confident are we they should be the ones doing more of both going forward?
I have a saying I use at work a lot: “A bad plan executed well will out-perform a good plan executed poorly.”.
Hitting on draft picks is executing and you’re correct, if they don’t it doesn’t matter how good the plan is.
Very clearly we still need to make changes to our scouting structure and talent evaluation org. We’ll see how this draft class performs and if anyone from their past 2 improves.
He preached patience when he got here. After an unexpectedly good year he decided we were closer than he expected and hit the gas pedal and signed a poor QB to a lucrative deal based on what would be an off year for most NFL QBs. After 2023 blew up from the opening drive, he decided we were going back to patience per his last meeting with the media.
We did the same confused dance with Barkley - offer him a long term deal,and when he turns it down stop talking to him and tag him. Then in a lost season we hold on to him through the trade deadline, and then let him walk for nothing. Was there a plan there with Barkley, or just changing his mind based on the last data point?
I don’t see a “strategy” necessarily in the draft other than trying to pick good players, which is basically everyone’s strategy. He tried to fix the Oline through the draft the past two years, and free agency this year. He is open to getting a QB and had a plan, and when that plan didn’t work, we went back to patience.
Is there a plan to get a QB in 2025, or is it what we did in 2024 which is to identify a single prospect, and if not attainable, figure it out in 2026?
There may be a strategy and of course it will not be disclosed publicly. I don’t see this team building an identity or building around some core belief. It seems like Schoen goes back to the drawing board each time facts move.
The nice thing is, we'll know shortly after 2024. If Jones were to be cut, it'll be well before the draft.
He signed one free agent offensive lineman and one defensive free agent who are supposed to slide right in and own their position. They didn't go far enough, I think, when one more pass rusher, at DT if possible, would have lifted the defense up into the top half of the league.
The offensive line I'm sick to death with. Enough money and draft choices to add one more player ranked as elite and we stop singing the OL blues.
The poor play of the O-line just doesn't seem justified when you look at all the money and draft choices invested in it. The players during the Coughlin years, with one or two exceptions, were not expensive and not high draft picks. Dave Diehl, a 5th round pick who made one Pro Bowl, I think, was good enough to hold down left tackle all through the playoffs for both years. Against the Cowboys and Packers and Niners and New England.
Something besides poor ability must have held them back. One thing that jumps out of the stats is that in the 2007 season all five players, Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie played in all 16 games.
fuck Schoen and fuck anyone who tells me to find a new team. i will bitch and moan until they get their shit together or i’m dead, whichever comes first.
right now we are the laughingstock of the league, regardless of whether Schoen has a long term strategy. if you don’t see that, you’re part of the problem, Bitey. you being level headed doesn’t make Schoen any smarter. it just gives Mara more cover to allow Schoen to continue fucking up.
You asked for it - fuck off. You are not the only one with family that has been Giants fans for generations.
People like you SHOULD find a new team. The rest of us that are partly sane are tired of whiny ass bitchers and their pseudo-tough guy rants.
Nobody thinks Schoen has been near perfect. There is a learning curve and there needs to be patience. He got squashed last year. Big mistakes in thinking they could get into the chase after 2022. Daboll came out and did not have the team ready for the season. Yeah, they got their heads handed to them. Think that will happen in that manner again?
Do you think that changing the staff now will do anything except set them back farther? I am pretty happy with Schoen. I think he does have a plan. It was sidetracked by early success(people should now realize that Daboll's job in 2022 was close to a miracle.)
I know and accept that they will not be good next year. I agree that Jones is not the answer and if Bricillo doesn't fix that line, it will be ugly early and often. To paraphrase Lt Spiers in Band Of brothers to Albert Blithe - the only way to get through the season is to accept that they will suck and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will stop thinking next year is salvageable...
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they've drafted 10 defensive players including 2 firsts, and they just traded a high 2nd for Burns (#11). all of those players are still here, along with okereke, dex, ojulari, etc.
we all know they've spent 4 picks on the OL, including a first and 2x day 2's. in addition to thomas they just signed runyan and elumeanor.
people spend way to much time contemplating QB and not enough on the rest of the roster. the OL and D need to start showing improvement. it is year 3.
if they cant make progress on those things this year after 3 drafts and tons of money spent, how confident are we they should be the ones doing more of both going forward?
I have a saying I use at work a lot: “A bad plan executed well will out-perform a good plan executed poorly.”.
Hitting on draft picks is executing and you’re correct, if they don’t it doesn’t matter how good the plan is.
Very clearly we still need to make changes to our scouting structure and talent evaluation org. We’ll see how this draft class performs and if anyone from their past 2 improves.
on the positive side all 18 picks they made are still here so there's time. it's just put up or shut up time for a lot of the 2022 guys. neal, ezeudu, flott, belton, bellinger, etc. spots are there if 1 or 2 of them step up like wandale/thibs (and more room for wandale/thibs to be even better). only year 2 but jms, hyatt in the same boat.
that's where i see this as a big year. how well is this regime developing guys?
I think no OL in this draft had more to do with the way the draft played out, plus the necessity to address more needs than OL.
I agree that Daniel is a crazy expensive bridge QB. He's not as bad as people make him out to be, he may well have some good success this year, if the OL, WR, RB and overall offense is improved. So I also see a strategy of building the team and taking the right QB when the right opportunity presents. Clearly DJ is not good enough to build around no matter how good he might play this coming season.
Each of the OL signings is different.
Runyan is viewed as a starting guard because our guards were awful last year.
Eluemunor ideally is best at guard (again guards sucked) but he's insurance for Neal. (They haven't given up on Neal but they are hedging their bets).
Schlottman is pure back-up/insurance for JMS.
Stinnie and Nelson are capable back-ups who actually have started in this league. They are guys you can bring in and the OL won't fall apart.
So different guys for different purposes.
I know and accept that they will not be good next year. I agree that Jones is not the answer and if Bricillo doesn't fix that line, it will be ugly early and often. To paraphrase Lt Spiers in Band Of brothers to Albert Blithe - the only way to get through the season is to accept that they will suck and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will stop thinking next year is salvageable...
They've been here three years. They're paying Jones like he's one of the best players in the league.
There should absolutely be expectations to make a push at an appearance in the conference championship game in 2024. This is the execution of their plan. This is their team aligned for a push.
This was the plan.
Jones will be recovering, physically and mentally. Can he adust and succeed without his wheels at 100%? That's the biggest question.
The league caught on to stack/slot looks that were the staple of the offense the second half of 2022. Jones will have to sit back in the pocket and make reads and throws at every level.
If there’s a plan it’s not apparent from the execution. I don’t see much of cohesive roster building strategy through their actions.
They’ve paid lip service to the QB position and the trenches. Nothing was done at the QB position. They drafted nothing along the OL/DL in the draft. They opted for FA stop gaps instead of looking for OL in a deep OL draft class. I like the Burns trade and the DL looks close to being dominant. It would’ve been nice to at least see this unit get over the hump in the off-season. Instead there’s still questions next to Dex and there’s depth concerns.
If they were truly playing the long game then they should’ve made sacrifices to reinforce the core areas of the team. If the QB you want isn’t there, ok, fine. Then make sure the OL/DL are set. Address that instead of playing wack a mole with roster holes and picking a Safety and corner depth.
Collectively this off-season looks like “what can we do to win the most games in ‘24.” Not let’s set this team up for a run in ‘25 and beyond. The added challenge with the QB position is if Schoen/Daboll do what they’re supposed to do, it’s going to be harder and harder to draft their guy because they’re going to be winning too many games to be in a position to.
Big holes in the reasoning.
We know they did not draft a QB in the entire draft and they passed on 3, other teams thought worthy of the first round.
That is a fact.
They know the status of Jones recovery.
They have the absolute best, most detailed scouting on Daniel JOnes.
Based what they actually did, I think I don’t think it fair to conclude they believe Jones is a “franchise QB”(they might)
However it is EXTREMELY reasonably to suggest they don’t think he sucks.
Also, pretty sure he can read defenses, based on their actions in the draft just sayin’
Luv you guys :)
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I know and accept that they will not be good next year. I agree that Jones is not the answer and if Bricillo doesn't fix that line, it will be ugly early and often. To paraphrase Lt Spiers in Band Of brothers to Albert Blithe - the only way to get through the season is to accept that they will suck and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will stop thinking next year is salvageable...
They've been here three years. They're paying Jones like he's one of the best players in the league.
There should absolutely be expectations to make a push at an appearance in the conference championship game in 2024. This is the execution of their plan. This is their team aligned for a push.
This was the plan.
Well no, you are wrong. They are paying Jones as the average QB in the league on a 2nd contract. Yeah it is wrong, on top of the fact QBs get far too much of the cap. What they are paying Jones has little to do with how this team will play. We both know he is not the answer. We both know this team has more holes than a Swiss Cheese factory. Is the roster better than 2022? Yes it is. Is it good enough to compete with the big boys - I guarantee you that will be up to Carmen Bricillo.
I stand by my statement about Spiers in Band of Brothers. You will sleep much better once you understand that this team will suck this year. Just accept it.
You didn't get your QB - neither did the rest of us. They didn't feel what was there for them at #6 was worth the juice. They didn't get a DT in the 2nd round either. Didn't get the RB they wanted either. 95% of us wanted a new QB to be an upgrade. That player wasn't there at #6 and the Patriots were full of shit saying they were open for business.
So if you want to believe that this team will be pushing for the conference champ game - good for you. I would like that too. Guess what, it ain't happening.
What will make me happy this year is a defense that can get off the field on 3rd and long and an offensive line that can actually pick up a stunt consistently and not get the RB tackled right at handoff. I have no illusions.
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that we need to trust Joe Schoen or find a new team. he’s done nothing to earn our trust and my family has been rooting for this team for generations.
fuck Schoen and fuck anyone who tells me to find a new team. i will bitch and moan until they get their shit together or i’m dead, whichever comes first.
right now we are the laughingstock of the league, regardless of whether Schoen has a long term strategy. if you don’t see that, you’re part of the problem, Bitey. you being level headed doesn’t make Schoen any smarter. it just gives Mara more cover to allow Schoen to continue fucking up.
You asked for it - fuck off. You are not the only one with family that has been Giants fans for generations.
People like you SHOULD find a new team. The rest of us that are partly sane are tired of whiny ass bitchers and their pseudo-tough guy rants.
Nobody thinks Schoen has been near perfect. There is a learning curve and there needs to be patience. He got squashed last year. Big mistakes in thinking they could get into the chase after 2022. Daboll came out and did not have the team ready for the season. Yeah, they got their heads handed to them. Think that will happen in that manner again?
Do you think that changing the staff now will do anything except set them back farther? I am pretty happy with Schoen. I think he does have a plan. It was sidetracked by early success(people should now realize that Daboll's job in 2022 was close to a miracle.)
I know and accept that they will not be good next year. I agree that Jones is not the answer and if Bricillo doesn't fix that line, it will be ugly early and often. To paraphrase Lt Spiers in Band Of brothers to Albert Blithe - the only way to get through the season is to accept that they will suck and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will stop thinking next year is salvageable...
Section I agree changing staffs sets them back further. But I don't see how they survive another bad season. That's why I've been so down on how the draft played out: I feel like I just watched the 2024, 25, and 26 seasons all flushed down the drain
8th at time of signing for both and is paid more than double anyone else on our team.
Spin that however you would like but it is true
If there’s a plan it’s not apparent from the execution. I don’t see much of cohesive roster building strategy through their actions.
They’ve paid lip service to the QB position and the trenches. Nothing was done at the QB position. They drafted nothing along the OL/DL in the draft. They opted for FA stop gaps instead of looking for OL in a deep OL draft class. I like the Burns trade and the DL looks close to being dominant. It would’ve been nice to at least see this unit get over the hump in the off-season. Instead there’s still questions next to Dex and there’s depth concerns.
If they were truly playing the long game then they should’ve made sacrifices to reinforce the core areas of the team. If the QB you want isn’t there, ok, fine. Then make sure the OL/DL are set. Address that instead of playing wack a mole with roster holes and picking a Safety and corner depth.
Collectively this off-season looks like “what can we do to win the most games in ‘24.” Not let’s set this team up for a run in ‘25 and beyond. The added challenge with the QB position is if Schoen/Daboll do what they’re supposed to do, it’s going to be harder and harder to draft their guy because they’re going to be winning too many games to be in a position to.
Awesome post!!!!!!!!!!!!
You guys are throwing hissy fits at this point.
You guys are throwing hissy fits at this point.
It's taken a few days, but with the emotion out of it your conclusion was right. They wanted a QB, but they couldn't get into Daniels/Maye range. It's what it is, McCarthy didn't meet the grade at 6.
Jones is a year to year QB.
It wasn't the front that was the problem defending the run. Dexter Lawrence and A'Shawn Robinson were not getting blown off the ball. In fact it they were studs up front.
Run defense takes 11. That includes the cornerbacks (especially the nickel corner) and safeties. That's where we had a ton of issues in run defense. Also edge. Guess what positions got addressed on defense?
But no, "the Giants ignored the trenches!"
What we know is the 2022 offense isn't in the cards.
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I think both are keepers but it seems like they’re held back by the organizational bureaucracy.
If there’s a plan it’s not apparent from the execution. I don’t see much of cohesive roster building strategy through their actions.
They’ve paid lip service to the QB position and the trenches. Nothing was done at the QB position. They drafted nothing along the OL/DL in the draft. They opted for FA stop gaps instead of looking for OL in a deep OL draft class. I like the Burns trade and the DL looks close to being dominant. It would’ve been nice to at least see this unit get over the hump in the off-season. Instead there’s still questions next to Dex and there’s depth concerns.
If they were truly playing the long game then they should’ve made sacrifices to reinforce the core areas of the team. If the QB you want isn’t there, ok, fine. Then make sure the OL/DL are set. Address that instead of playing wack a mole with roster holes and picking a Safety and corner depth.
Collectively this off-season looks like “what can we do to win the most games in ‘24.” Not let’s set this team up for a run in ‘25 and beyond. The added challenge with the QB position is if Schoen/Daboll do what they’re supposed to do, it’s going to be harder and harder to draft their guy because they’re going to be winning too many games to be in a position to.
Awesome post!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree, you have a point.
What did they do? Spend 6 draft picks on their OL and DL. It’s easy to see their plan, their plan is to be physical and dominate up front — and that’s what they’ve been doing for quite some time in the division.
I"ve said that Daboll's career trajectory is aligning closer with Jim Fassel at this point. An offensive minded coach, brought here to try to "unlock" a QB, but will likely need to wait until year 4 to figure it out. In the meantime, they will hope that a young defense which took their lumps early will jell to keep the team competitive and maybe steal enough wins to get into the playoffs.
Fassel was supposed to figure out Dave Brown. He had a QB on the bench in Danny Kanell who wasn't going to light the world on fire. But he relied on a young defense that had a bunch of good young players who lost games for a few years, but it came together in 1997. Strahan, Hamilton, Armstead, Sehorn, Sparks, Harris, etc. Those guys made plays, Brown got hurt, Kanell game managed the team & ran the offense well enough to score just enough points and then suddenly the Giants won the division. After that, he still had a good defense, but they couldn't figure out QB (Brown to Kanell to Graham). It wasn't until they were able to get Collins that Fassel could finally run his offense and the Giants ended up in the Super Bowl.
I see very much the same thing for Daboll. He's got a young defense that might be ready to take the leap under Bowen coming out of the Wink chaos. You've got pieces here: Dexter, Thibs, Burns, Okereke, Banks. Daboll actually might have more weapons on offense than Fassel did, but he's got to make it work with a QB, coming off injury, who has shown he's inconsistent at best as a QB in Jones. I know the Brown and Jones comparison is lazy with the Duke connection, but in these terms it works. Lock/DeVito is essentially Kanell/Graham. Maybe will win a few games here and there, but not the answer.
Daboll needs to find his Collins. His QB who will run his offense and this can all click very quickly. So in the end, I think Schoen's strategy is to continue to build up the roster as they figure out who the QB is, and hopefully they will win enough games to not get themselves fired as they wait to find their QB.
I"ve said that Daboll's career trajectory is aligning closer with Jim Fassel at this point. An offensive minded coach, brought here to try to "unlock" a QB, but will likely need to wait until year 4 to figure it out. In the meantime, they will hope that a young defense which took their lumps early will jell to keep the team competitive and maybe steal enough wins to get into the playoffs.
Fassel was supposed to figure out Dave Brown. He had a QB on the bench in Danny Kanell who wasn't going to light the world on fire. But he relied on a young defense that had a bunch of good young players who lost games for a few years, but it came together in 1997. Strahan, Hamilton, Armstead, Sehorn, Sparks, Harris, etc. Those guys made plays, Brown got hurt, Kanell game managed the team & ran the offense well enough to score just enough points and then suddenly the Giants won the division. After that, he still had a good defense, but they couldn't figure out QB (Brown to Kanell to Graham). It wasn't until they were able to get Collins that Fassel could finally run his offense and the Giants ended up in the Super Bowl.
I see very much the same thing for Daboll. He's got a young defense that might be ready to take the leap under Bowen coming out of the Wink chaos. You've got pieces here: Dexter, Thibs, Burns, Okereke, Banks. Daboll actually might have more weapons on offense than Fassel did, but he's got to make it work with a QB, coming off injury, who has shown he's inconsistent at best as a QB in Jones. I know the Brown and Jones comparison is lazy with the Duke connection, but in these terms it works. Lock/DeVito is essentially Kanell/Graham. Maybe will win a few games here and there, but not the answer.
Daboll needs to find his Collins. His QB who will run his offense and this can all click very quickly. So in the end, I think Schoen's strategy is to continue to build up the roster as they figure out who the QB is, and hopefully they will win enough games to not get themselves fired as they wait to find their QB.
Great post. I made this comparison yesterday.
A big key for Daboll will be to keep the team competitive. He won't last with a 4-13 type season. Fassel's down years were 7-9/8-8 before the wheels came off in 2003.
It wasn't the front that was the problem defending the run. Dexter Lawrence and A'Shawn Robinson were not getting blown off the ball. In fact it they were studs up front.
Run defense takes 11. That includes the cornerbacks (especially the nickel corner) and safeties. That's where we had a ton of issues in run defense. Also edge. Guess what positions got addressed on defense?
But no, "the Giants ignored the trenches!"
Eric let's hope Adoree comes back so he can help with tackling on the outside. Give him a number in the 50's if it helps!
I"ve said that Daboll's career trajectory is aligning closer with Jim Fassel at this point. An offensive minded coach, brought here to try to "unlock" a QB, but will likely need to wait until year 4 to figure it out. In the meantime, they will hope that a young defense which took their lumps early will jell to keep the team competitive and maybe steal enough wins to get into the playoffs.
Fassel was supposed to figure out Dave Brown. He had a QB on the bench in Danny Kanell who wasn't going to light the world on fire. But he relied on a young defense that had a bunch of good young players who lost games for a few years, but it came together in 1997. Strahan, Hamilton, Armstead, Sehorn, Sparks, Harris, etc. Those guys made plays, Brown got hurt, Kanell game managed the team & ran the offense well enough to score just enough points and then suddenly the Giants won the division. After that, he still had a good defense, but they couldn't figure out QB (Brown to Kanell to Graham). It wasn't until they were able to get Collins that Fassel could finally run his offense and the Giants ended up in the Super Bowl.
I see very much the same thing for Daboll. He's got a young defense that might be ready to take the leap under Bowen coming out of the Wink chaos. You've got pieces here: Dexter, Thibs, Burns, Okereke, Banks. Daboll actually might have more weapons on offense than Fassel did, but he's got to make it work with a QB, coming off injury, who has shown he's inconsistent at best as a QB in Jones. I know the Brown and Jones comparison is lazy with the Duke connection, but in these terms it works. Lock/DeVito is essentially Kanell/Graham. Maybe will win a few games here and there, but not the answer.
Daboll needs to find his Collins. His QB who will run his offense and this can all click very quickly. So in the end, I think Schoen's strategy is to continue to build up the roster as they figure out who the QB is, and hopefully they will win enough games to not get themselves fired as they wait to find their QB.
I can see this and I’m excited about the defense. I was excited about the defense heading into last year and they look way better now.
Not sure if the bridge QB scenario can happen in today’s NFL. Baker Mayfield is the only example that I can think of where that has worked out recently.
You guys are throwing hissy fits at this point.
correct. there is a plan. in 2022 they executed their plan perfectly and didnt have a ton of injuries, in 2023 their expansion plan blew up in their faces.
2024 is the swing year. either they will execute their plans (which to your point have been clear - better OL, pass rush, receivers) or they wont.
bureaucracy isnt stopping them from getting draft picks and scouting decisions right. they upgraded the technology, replaced the whole staff, have made plenty of picks who have had plenty of time to develop, just revamped strength and conditioning. need to see the returns now.
You guys are throwing hissy fits at this point.
There's a plan. It's just not a good plan.
In that context I always felt that the one great strength Bill Belichik had with the Patriots was the every year he went to camp with something of an open mind, saw what he had to work with that year and built his game plans around that rather than trying to force players to conform to to a pre-determined scheme that worked eleswhere or at a different time with different players.
My biggest questions:
Did Schoen fall into the trap of overrating the roster post 2022?
Did Schoen properly evaluate the talent of the roster but was pushed by ownership to enter "win now mode"?
If he did correctly evaluate the roster, why was he unable to convince ownership of his findings? Or are they incapable of listening to any negative opinion regardless of who delivers it?
fuck Schoen and fuck anyone who tells me to find a new team. i will bitch and moan until they get their shit together or i’m dead, whichever comes first.
right now we are the laughingstock of the league, regardless of whether Schoen has a long term strategy. if you don’t see that, you’re part of the problem, Bitey. you being level headed doesn’t make Schoen any smarter. it just gives Mara more cover to allow Schoen to continue fucking up.
Thank God you're not my boss 🤣
Normally when teams pay their QB, add a potential elite WR, and pay a big time pass rusher; they’re competing for the conference title game like Terps said. That should be the expectation, but the Giants are going to fall very short of that.
This win most absurd comment of the month here and that is saying something...
Perhaps signing 5 O-Lineman in the off-season is a sign they believe they fixed the Oline? Or maybe they thought we had more pressings draft needs? Of maybe they just didn't like any of the late round options.
Regardless, it's not like they said, "damn we suck at drafting olinemen so let's not do that anymore..."
The angst coming from fans right now is completely QB-centric. It's all about Daniel Jones.
Whether you like it or not, they wanted Maye. Couldn't get him. And decided to fix the other areas on the team with their draft picks rather than take McCarthy, Penix, or Nix.
It's that simple. And yet, "they have no plan!"
SMH.
If Neal improves this season, I have a feeling lots of posters will all of a sudden start to change their opinions on Schoen even though Neal is just 1 player.
They tried. It didn't work out. All you can do is adjust and take the best players available to you in the draft. I think Giants tried to do that.
They tried. It didn't work out. All you can do is adjust and take the best players available to you in the draft. I think Giants tried to do that.
NO QB could handle that kind of heat.
The fab 5, have been on the forums day after day, repeating generic criticisms like he can’t read defense until you start to believe it. They have enough spare time in their lives to execute a marketing campaign on BBI to run the guy out of town. Daniel is clearly the obstacle to their happiness. Kinda funny.
Daniel Jones might be toast.
He could also be comeback player of the year.
I know how I am rooting.
What absolutely cannot happen this year is the OL struggles mightily again.
It also helps enable them to keep Jones and justify their decision to extend.
The danger point is if 2024 is somehow successful enough (in their minds) to restructure Jones.
The danger point is if 2024 is somehow successful enough (in their minds) to restructure Jones.
success is the goal, not the danger.
schoen correctly pointed out this year that the QB investigations weren't new - in 2022 they visited malik willis and sam howell, and in 2023 they visited hendon hooker and met with stroud/levis, obviously this year they investigated everyone.
if they have a chance to take a QB they love, they will do it. i dont think success on the field will change that much. moving farther down the draft doesnt hurt their odds of being able to move up nearly as much as whether or not the teams that like the player they'd have to trade with also like the QB (like NE) in which case they wont get the player anyway.
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Or, putting it another way, if Nabers has a Beckham like effect on the offense without the antics, and Nubin and Phillips contribute right away, people will start to say "well now all we need is the QB..."
They tried. It didn't work out. All you can do is adjust and take the best players available to you in the draft. I think Giants tried to do that.
People were calling Tua a bust until Waddle showed up. Daniel Jones is the same human being we all thought he was prior to 2023. I have NFL plus, any of you that do, should go back and watch the all 22 of the first 5 games. I did.
NO QB could handle that kind of heat.
The fab 5, have been on the forums day after day, repeating generic criticisms like he can’t read defense until you start to believe it. They have enough spare time in their lives to execute a marketing campaign on BBI to run the guy out of town. Daniel is clearly the obstacle to their happiness. Kinda funny.
Daniel Jones might be toast.
He could also be comeback player of the year.
I know how I am rooting.
This would be true if it was only people on this forum saying he can’t read defenses.
People with no interest in the Giants say the same thing. The weaknesses in Sy’s draft report show up in year 5.
He’s not a QB you can win with.
draft a QB at 8 who may sit at least 3 years - team with a plan.
Got it....
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"there is no plan" posts are just silly.
You guys are throwing hissy fits at this point.
It's taken a few days, but with the emotion out of it your conclusion was right. They wanted a QB, but they couldn't get into Daniels/Maye range. It's what it is, McCarthy didn't meet the grade at 6.
Jones is a year to year QB.
The problem with Jones being a year to year QB is that there is a strong probability they have to reach at some point for a QB.
Let's say they are basically a perpetual 5-7 win team with Jones at the helm, is anyone going to tolerate the same line of well the QB value didn't align with our slot so we are doing to run out back with Jones until his contract runs out?
You have to reach to get your QB. It's probably the only position out there where it's extremely hard to align the value and your draft position.
The angst coming from fans right now is completely QB-centric. It's all about Daniel Jones.
Whether you like it or not, they wanted Maye. Couldn't get him. And decided to fix the other areas on the team with their draft picks rather than take McCarthy, Penix, or Nix.
It's that simple. And yet, "they have no plan!"
SMH.
This is a pretty gross oversimplification.
JonC said it best. They seem to be trying to straddle this "win now while we rebuild" approach. The poor evaluation of the 2022 season lead Schoen to accelerate the plan to win. 2023 threw cold water on that.
As you posted 1,000 times in the lead up to the draft - "The Giants are done with Daniel Jones." They tried to land Drake Maye and that didn't work. Plan B? TBD.
Having the QB position be a TBD when the Giants have shown little appetite to draft QBs unless they believe they are the next Josh Allen is concerning to many fans who don't see Josh Allens growing on trees and easily attainable.
The ceiling of this team is pretty low without an NFL level QB, and the Giants don't have one and have nobody in the pipeline who can even remotely become that.
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The danger point is if 2024 is somehow successful enough (in their minds) to restructure Jones.
success is the goal, not the danger.
schoen correctly pointed out this year that the QB investigations weren't new - in 2022 they visited malik willis and sam howell, and in 2023 they visited hendon hooker and met with stroud/levis, obviously this year they investigated everyone.
if they have a chance to take a QB they love, they will do it. i dont think success on the field will change that much. moving farther down the draft doesnt hurt their odds of being able to move up nearly as much as whether or not the teams that like the player they'd have to trade with also like the QB (like NE) in which case they wont get the player anyway.
2022 success was not a good thing for NYG leadership. Schoen made poor decisions for 2023 and has admitted them. Given recent NYG history, it suggests the decision making will continue along a similar track, which in my book is not success or moving toward ascension. YMMV.
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In comment 16498889 ryanmkeane said:
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Or, putting it another way, if Nabers has a Beckham like effect on the offense without the antics, and Nubin and Phillips contribute right away, people will start to say "well now all we need is the QB..."
They tried. It didn't work out. All you can do is adjust and take the best players available to you in the draft. I think Giants tried to do that.
People were calling Tua a bust until Waddle showed up. Daniel Jones is the same human being we all thought he was prior to 2023. I have NFL plus, any of you that do, should go back and watch the all 22 of the first 5 games. I did.
NO QB could handle that kind of heat.
The fab 5, have been on the forums day after day, repeating generic criticisms like he can’t read defense until you start to believe it. They have enough spare time in their lives to execute a marketing campaign on BBI to run the guy out of town. Daniel is clearly the obstacle to their happiness. Kinda funny.
Daniel Jones might be toast.
He could also be comeback player of the year.
I know how I am rooting.
This would be true if it was only people on this forum saying he can’t read defenses.
People with no interest in the Giants say the same thing. The weaknesses in Sy’s draft report show up in year 5.
He’s not a QB you can win with.
That multi billion dollar corporation had a number of opportunities to replace Jones if he could not read a defense. They would know.
You guys lost that argument.
2022 success was not a good thing for NYG leadership. Schoen made poor decisions for 2023 and has admitted them. Given recent NYG history, it suggests the decision making will continue along a similar track, which in my book is not success or moving toward ascension. YMMV.
This begs the question, Was there something that the team could have done to change your conclusion?
Or, does the success of 2022 and the following, 2023 mistakes, simply have to run some sort of course?
In other words, if the argument is about poor decisions post 2023, what IYV should/shouldn't have happened in the 2024 offseason, to this point, in order to change course?
If nobody knows the plays that are called, how do you know Jones can read defenses?
You know who else thinks he can’t read defenses? Opposing players. They’ve mocked him about it in public.
I think that is a very realistic, and even probable scenario, particularly if the Giants' record is around .500 or better in 2024.
2022 success was not a good thing for NYG leadership. Schoen made poor decisions for 2023 and has admitted them. Given recent NYG history, it suggests the decision making will continue along a similar track, which in my book is not success or moving toward ascension. YMMV.
there is a causation correlation thing in here. bad decisions are just bad decisions - guys like darren waller and parris campbell were bad decisions even if the qb is justin herbert. evan neal, bobby johnson, josh ezeudu, glowinski as well.
extending jones may have been one of those bad decisions but even if they wrongfully got more aggressive than they should have, they could have made much better "aggressive" decisions.
again the concept that i think you guys overplay is that their opinion on QBs shifts on daniel jones when i dont think that's true. i think it shifts on their opinion of the alternatives. maye is the first real high end alternative they had a shot at and they tried to take it. i dont think that equation was different in years prior or will change much in future drafts. i think jones performance more impacts what they do in FA than draft.
again the concept that i think you guys overplay is that their opinion on QBs shifts on daniel jones when i dont think that's true. i think it shifts on their opinion of the alternatives. maye is the first real high end alternative they had a shot at and they tried to take it. i dont think that equation was different in years prior or will change much in future drafts. i think jones performance more impacts what they do in FA than draft.
I think you are absolutely correct about this. They are very open to getting another QB. However, I think they are only ready to do that when they can land a Josh Allen type prospect - which not every draft has. When they can't land that guy, I think they are ok staying with Jones until that happens.
2022 success was not a good thing for NYG leadership. Schoen made poor decisions for 2023 and has admitted them. Given recent NYG history, it suggests the decision making will continue along a similar track, which in my book is not success or moving toward ascension. YMMV.
This is where I am. I think this thing went off the rails.
O/U 6.5 wins, and last I saw the under was at -130.
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again the concept that i think you guys overplay is that their opinion on QBs shifts on daniel jones when i dont think that's true. i think it shifts on their opinion of the alternatives. maye is the first real high end alternative they had a shot at and they tried to take it. i dont think that equation was different in years prior or will change much in future drafts. i think jones performance more impacts what they do in FA than draft.
I think you are absolutely correct about this. They are very open to getting another QB. However, I think they are only ready to do that when they can land a Josh Allen type prospect - which not every draft has. When they can't land that guy, I think they are ok staying with Jones until that happens.
100%. the fact that they are the guys who aggressive targeted josh allen - and correctly chose him explicitly over the more mainstream josh rosen is something we should all keep in mind when criticizing whatever we perceive the right decisions to be.
i liked rosen in 2018 more than allen, like almost everyone. i like jjm this year a lot more than most since November. it is easy to reflexively say "just pick a qb" when it's not your job, but think about how their lives (and beane/mcdermott) are all different right now if they chose the other more conventional josh (which would have unanimously gotten A/A+ draft grades)?
draft a QB at 8 who may sit at least 3 years - team with a plan.
Got it....
FLAG! Illegal strawman on the field.
No one here, to my knowledge at least, has admired the Falcons' pick. Maybe someone admired the player they picked, but has anyone said, "Damn, the Falcons sure know what they're doing!"
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not drafting a QB who didnt meet the value - no plan
draft a QB at 8 who may sit at least 3 years - team with a plan.
Got it....
FLAG! Illegal strawman on the field.
No one here, to my knowledge at least, has admired the Falcons' pick. Maybe someone admired the player they picked, but has anyone said, "Damn, the Falcons sure know what they're doing!"
The Terps defender!!!!!
Plan B is quarterback hell. I talked about that 100 times before the draft too.
There seems to be a QB or bust crowd here on BBI.
Whether you agree or not, the Giants did not think that highly of McCarthy, Penix, and Nix. It really is that simple.
So they pivoted ... we can't get "our" QB in this draft but we will build up the team around the position and take another swing in 2025.
We all knew this was a possibility. We all talked about it before the draft.
And had they landed Mayes, we talked about how the lack of picks this year and next year (for the trade up) would sabotage the rest of the roster.
So the options were:
(1) Take the QB who you are not enamored with.
or
(2) Build up the roster on offense and defense, including an offense altering WR in the first round.
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
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The danger point is if 2024 is somehow successful enough (in their minds) to restructure Jones.
success is the goal, not the danger.
schoen correctly pointed out this year that the QB investigations weren't new - in 2022 they visited malik willis and sam howell, and in 2023 they visited hendon hooker and met with stroud/levis, obviously this year they investigated everyone.
moving farther down the draft doesnt hurt their odds of being able to move up nearly as much as whether or not the teams that like the player they'd have to trade with also like the QB (like NE) in which case they wont get the player anyway.
You're wrong. OFC the odds change.
We draft a TE in round 4 and the hope is that the guy can be a stud. A QB in round 4? That guy will 100% suck. Wasted pick.
Ironically, if next year's draft doesn't drop a prospect we love into our laps, we may be in the FA market for a QB who was selected in the 4th round and is much better than our current guy.
Plan B is quarterback hell. I talked about that 100 times before the draft too.
There seems to be a QB or bust crowd here on BBI.
Whether you agree or not, the Giants did not think that highly of McCarthy, Penix, and Nix. It really is that simple.
So they pivoted ... we can't get "our" QB in this draft but we will build up the team around the position and take another swing in 2025.
We all knew this was a possibility. We all talked about it before the draft.
And had they landed Mayes, we talked about how the lack of picks this year and next year (for the trade up) would sabotage the rest of the roster.
So the options were:
(1) Take the QB who you are not enamored with.
or
(2) Build up the roster on offense and defense, including an offense altering WR in the first round.
There's a distinction being made between JS loving Jones and wanting to build around him, and JS being unable to get his QB and thus using Jones as a bridge.
However the result is the same: Jones is QB1 for 2024. IMV the circumstances behind Jones starting this season are irrelevant, if he's bad people are losing their jobs regardless of "how hard they tried to replace him" during the draft
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
And other teams have approcahed your strategy without much success either. Lets take a look at a few teams:
Jacksonville Jaguars:
Trevor Lawrence
Jake Luton
Garden Minshew
Tanner Lee
Brandon Allen
Blake Bortles
All drafted since 2014. None of them having done anything worthwhile or even keeping to your own person opinion.
how about the Jets
Jordan Travis
Zach Wilson
James Morgan
Sam Darnold
Christian Hackenberg
Bryce Petty
Tahj Boyd
All drafted since 2014. Not a really inspiring list, huh?
As Eric and others have pointed out, finding a QB doesnt mean a hill of beans if you surround him with shit. Look at BBI Legend Justin Herbert. Through 4 seasons he has less playoff wins than Daniel Jones. Why are they sticking with him? Its obvious he hasnt raised the play of the players surrounding him, right? Thats the reasoning you and others continuously make.
Your method doesnt work. You keep taking QBs in every draft -your ignoring postiions of need. Teams that have major talent in multi-areas can take a swing at a late round QB. We cnnot. Because the end of the Reese era, through alll of Gettleman's era, and so far through Schoen's era..... we dont have good players, period.
Again, when was the last time the Giants drafted someone in rounds 3 or later and made the pro bowl for the Giants..... gonna take you awhile to find that answer.
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In comment 16498911 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16498889 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Or, putting it another way, if Nabers has a Beckham like effect on the offense without the antics, and Nubin and Phillips contribute right away, people will start to say "well now all we need is the QB..."
They tried. It didn't work out. All you can do is adjust and take the best players available to you in the draft. I think Giants tried to do that.
This would be true if it was only people on this forum saying he can’t read defenses.
People with no interest in the Giants say the same thing. The weaknesses in Sy’s draft report show up in year 5.
He’s not a QB you can win with.
If we ar going to appeal to authority. The only people that know what play was called and what the read was are the New York Football Giants.
That multi billion dollar corporation had a number of opportunities to replace Jones if he could not read a defense. They would know.
You guys lost that argument.
IMO all your comments are so far off base. You sound like Resume Dave Gettleman that the Giants made the decision so it must be right.
And when a poster suggests "successful enough" you misinterpret the comment. The danger is being near .500 because the ultimate goal is to compete to win it all. Jones is not going to be the lead QB to compete for a championship unless there is blind luck with draft picks and FA's that everything else hits.
IMO you are in denial regarding Jones and what the success of the ceiling really is. Jones getting G-Men to near .500 is not success but just like in 2022 the FO may react like it is.
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
it's rich that you think the guys who drafted and developed allen, then actually got decent play out of tommy freaking devito, have a problem evaluating qbs when your own strategy is over draft qbs at all costs even if they end up significantly worse than devito like malik willis did.
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I'd submit the Giants have a major problem with how they evaluate quarterbacks.
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
it's rich that you think the guys who drafted and developed allen, then actually got decent play out of tommy freaking devito, have a problem evaluating qbs when your own strategy is over draft qbs at all costs even if they end up significantly worse than devito like malik willis did.
It's rich that you think the QB call is theirs.
2. In the two seasons they've played they've been one of the least productive passing offenses in the league
3. In those two seasons Jones hurt his neck (again) and tore his ACL
4. In their three years here they've paid Jones $82M and drafted zero QBs
If that computes for you, you're doing different math than I am.
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And other teams have approcahed your strategy without much success either. Lets take a look at a few teams:
Jacksonville Jaguars:
Trevor Lawrence
Jake Luton
Garden Minshew
Tanner Lee
Brandon Allen
Blake Bortles
All drafted since 2014. None of them having done anything worthwhile or even keeping to your own person opinion.
how about the Jets
Jordan Travis
Zach Wilson
James Morgan
Sam Darnold
Christian Hackenberg
Bryce Petty
Tahj Boyd
All drafted since 2014. Not a really inspiring list, huh?
As Eric and others have pointed out, finding a QB doesnt mean a hill of beans if you surround him with shit. Look at BBI Legend Justin Herbert. Through 4 seasons he has less playoff wins than Daniel Jones. Why are they sticking with him? Its obvious he hasnt raised the play of the players surrounding him, right? Thats the reasoning you and others continuously make.
Your method doesnt work. You keep taking QBs in every draft -your ignoring postiions of need. Teams that have major talent in multi-areas can take a swing at a late round QB. We cnnot. Because the end of the Reese era, through alll of Gettleman's era, and so far through Schoen's era..... we dont have good players, period.
Again, when was the last time the Giants drafted someone in rounds 3 or later and made the pro bowl for the Giants..... gonna take you awhile to find that answer.
Again some of you are grossly misinterpreting what is actually happening just so you can go by the faulty narrative build the team first. What some of you refuse to accept is what you saw as recently as lats year with Stroud. You can't pretend that didn't happen. And the same with Burrow.
And you’re brining up Herbert and using the Jones situation as some sort of comparison - again is so far off base. A huge negative with Jones is he is injury prone. I’ll say again He is injury prone. In addition a strength is his legs which he hurt this past year. While Herbert is among the leaders in top offenses - Dab=n Jones has not.
Your view of only one way to build offers no flexibility. This your narrative and view is so wrong.
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In comment 16499084 Go Terps said:
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I'd submit the Giants have a major problem with how they evaluate quarterbacks.
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
it's rich that you think the guys who drafted and developed allen, then actually got decent play out of tommy freaking devito, have a problem evaluating qbs when your own strategy is over draft qbs at all costs even if they end up significantly worse than devito like malik willis did.
It's rich that you think the QB call is theirs.
Duh how could i forget your companion thesis that the mara's are racist.
At some point im going to have to photoshop Mara in the draft room wearing a pillow sheet while consulting a draft chart with schoen/dabs looking over for approval so they know at which pick they get the andre woodson greenlight.
Again some of you are grossly misinterpreting what is actually happening just so you can go by the faulty narrative build the team first. What some of you refuse to accept is what you saw as recently as lats year with Stroud. You can't pretend that didn't happen. And the same with Burrow.
Your view of only one way to build offers no flexibility. This your narrative and view is so wrong.
Did the Bengals become SB contenders when they got Burrow. Or did they become one by getting Burrow, Drafting Higgins the next round, drafting Chase the following year, adding Hendrickson via free agency.....
Joe Burrow did not solely make them a SB contender.
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Again some of you are grossly misinterpreting what is actually happening just so you can go by the faulty narrative build the team first. What some of you refuse to accept is what you saw as recently as lats year with Stroud. You can't pretend that didn't happen. And the same with Burrow.
Your view of only one way to build offers no flexibility. This your narrative and view is so wrong.
Did the Bengals become SB contenders when they got Burrow. Or did they become one by getting Burrow, Drafting Higgins the next round, drafting Chase the following year, adding Hendrickson via free agency.....
Joe Burrow did not solely make them a SB contender.
You made the following comment --> "You keep taking QBs in every draft -your ignoring postiions of need."
Before Cinci took Burrow - didn't they have other positions of need?"
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
You're overthinking this. You guys mock the DJFC crew but the other extreme is "draft ANY quarterback" crew.
They didn't like McCarthy, Penix, and Nix. That's what this comes down to.
That certainly was an option.
We'll see who is right. McCarthy is in a fantastic situation. There are absolutely no excuses for him.
Equally concerning is the OL. This is a position group that hasn’t been solved for over a decade — across multiple GMs, HCs, and position coaches.
What was the solution this off-season? New OL coach and bargain FA band aid signings. Same playbook that’s been used in the past here multiple times. Then they leaned on that to avoid drafting OL in a deep class (fixed once and for all like Gettleman).
If they manage to get a QB in ‘25 or ‘26, most of these guys currently on the roster will be at or near the end of their respective contracts. So there’s a good chance we’ll be scrambling to fill out the OL depth chart at the same time we’re trying to bring on a new QB.
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I'd submit the Giants have a major problem with how they evaluate quarterbacks.
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
You're overthinking this. You guys mock the DJFC crew but the other extreme is "draft ANY quarterback" crew.
They didn't like McCarthy, Penix, and Nix. That's what this comes down to.
Locking in on one QB = full bloom love. I guess we're not as far removed from Gettleman as we'd hoped.
Again, they probably really liked the first three QBs taken in this draft. They even were willing to give up multiple picks to move up. But they were not high on the next there. Yet, you throw out this "full bloom love" thing like some ridiculous mantra.
You say a lot of really smart things on this site. But it's stuff like this that makes me cringe.
You're overthinking this. You guys mock the DJFC crew but the other extreme is "draft ANY quarterback" crew.
Thats what you get when people want to draft Malik Willis 5th, then force to take another QB next year cause how awful he was, who rumor has it - isnt really what the team is looking for and might be looking for a 3rd QB in 4 years.
Thats a winning plan! I guess..
Equally concerning is the OL. This is a position group that hasn’t been solved for over a decade — across multiple GMs, HCs, and position coaches.
What was the solution this off-season? New OL coach and bargain FA band aid signings. Same playbook that’s been used in the past here multiple times. Then they leaned on that to avoid drafting OL in a deep class (fixed once and for all like Gettleman).
If they manage to get a QB in ‘25 or ‘26, most of these guys currently on the roster will be at or near the end of their respective contracts. So there’s a good chance we’ll be scrambling to fill out the OL depth chart at the same time we’re trying to bring on a new QB.
I can;'t figure out if you're not paying attention, trolling, or just this dense.
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In comment 16499084 Go Terps said:
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I'd submit the Giants have a major problem with how they evaluate quarterbacks.
If they were going to draft Drake Maye thinking he was the next Josh Allen, to me that's akin to drafting Daniel Jones because you think he's the next Eli Manning. Josh Allen is a special player, and his situation coming into the NFL was pretty unusual. If they're trying to recreate him they may be waiting a long time and passing on some good prospects with different profiles.
The reason many of us insisted on a QB has been laid out numerous times. It's an extremely difficult position to get right and can require numerous attempts. The Giants are taking a different approach: draft them rarely and ride the guy you drafted.
If the guy you drafted is poor, that is a self-imposed QB hell. That's where we are.
it's rich that you think the guys who drafted and developed allen, then actually got decent play out of tommy freaking devito, have a problem evaluating qbs when your own strategy is over draft qbs at all costs even if they end up significantly worse than devito like malik willis did.
It's rich that you think the QB call is theirs.
It’s that was no proof other than message board speculation that you portray something as the absolute truth when in reality neither you or I have no idea
Again, they probably really liked the first three QBs taken in this draft. They even were willing to give up multiple picks to move up. But they were not high on the next there. Yet, you throw out this "full bloom love" thing like some ridiculous mantra.
You say a lot of really smart things on this site. But it's stuff like this that makes me cringe.
I'm condemning the methodology. It is not sound. Punting on quarterback until you find the perfect prospect is not sound. It's only going to have them in a worse situation next year.
"We'll just get the quarterback next year" is not a plan.
What happened is the Giants have had a major need to upgrade the quarterback position since the end of the 2016 season, and their only attempt to do so was to overdraft Jones in 2019. It is no coincidence that this has overlapped with the worst decade of Giants football many of us have ever experienced.
Nabers is obviously a very talented player. But what reason is there to believe he'll make any more difference than Beckham, Engram, Barkley, Tate, Toney, Golladay, Waller, or any of the other weapons they brought in over the years?
This is just more of the same: another coat of paint on a car with no engine.
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The weird thing is you seem to be condemning any team that doesn't draft a prospect it doesn't like.
Again, they probably really liked the first three QBs taken in this draft. They even were willing to give up multiple picks to move up. But they were not high on the next there. Yet, you throw out this "full bloom love" thing like some ridiculous mantra.
You say a lot of really smart things on this site. But it's stuff like this that makes me cringe.
I'm condemning the methodology. It is not sound. Punting on quarterback until you find the perfect prospect is not sound. It's only going to have them in a worse situation next year.
"We'll just get the quarterback next year" is not a plan.
Drafting the wrong QB doesn't fix it either. And then you miss out on the true impact player.
You've gone from "the Giants won't move on from Jones" because reality struck when it was obvious they were scouting the QB class heavy and tried to trade up.
Now you are on "well, they won't draft a QB until they like him."
I suppose that is progress.
If they go through their entire evaluation criteria (which, granted, could ultimately prove to fail) and no QB matches up, then they're going to follow the process and pick another position. I don't fault them for passing on QBs 4-6, I would've done the same.
What impact is Nabers going to make with no one to get him the ball?
I get that we're excited about the 'A' draft grades and Sy's 90 score for him. I don't think that's what the draft is about. I think it's about team building. It's about understanding that being an impact player at LSU with Jayden Daniels is different from being an impact player in the NFL with Daniel Jones.
We've become obsessed with winning the draft, with getting the guys Sy scores the highest. Well even Sy said he wished the Giants drafted McCarthy.
This was a "win now", short term vision draft pick. I hope it works out in 2024 but I've seen way too much to believe it will.
If they go through their entire evaluation criteria (which, granted, could ultimately prove to fail) and no QB matches up, then they're going to follow the process and pick another position. I don't fault them for passing on QBs 4-6, I would've done the same.
+1
Lamar Jackson, Brock Purdy, Dak Prescott, Jalen Hurts, Kirk Cousins, Russel Wilson - all relatively successful QB taken late first or much later. For sure, JJ, Penix, and Nix were not ‘perfect’, but I believe (especially with Penix) there is a chance one will excel. You have to take some swings, and we just haven’t.
I’m happy with Nabers, will root for DJ - but fully expect QB to be the team’s achilles heel. Meaning we need to take a swing in ‘25. I’m willing (and resigned) to wait.
The biggest question, to me, is whether Eluemunor will be playing RG, which he says is his position, or RT and Neal gets moved inside. I think RG. Among other things, it is a little late to be first moving Neal inside, especially if it means to the left side, as some speculate.
Jones is not a good QB.
But's he not Zach Wilson or Mac Jones either.
If Jones can throw TD passes to Darius Slayton, he can do so with Malik Nabers.
Your bigger fear should be Malik making Jones look good.
That certainly was an option.
We'll see who is right. McCarthy is in a fantastic situation. There are absolutely no excuses for him.
Yes. I was yelling at the TV "McCarthy"
My wife couldn't understand why I was so dejected when they announced Nabers
Lamar Jackson, Brock Purdy, Dak Prescott, Jalen Hurts, Kirk Cousins, Russel Wilson - all relatively successful QB taken late first or much later. For sure, JJ, Penix, and Nix were not ‘perfect’, but I believe (especially with Penix) there is a chance one will excel. You have to take some swings, and we just haven’t.
I’m happy with Nabers, will root for DJ - but fully expect QB to be the team’s achilles heel. Meaning we need to take a swing in ‘25. I’m willing (and resigned) to wait.
Yeah, agree.
It is very easy to say that Schoen didn't like QB4-QB6 this year but how many years can you continue to go without swinging? Since 2019...that's a joke for a team with one of the worst passing offenses in the league, year in and year out.
On top of the fact that we know the draft and college QB evaluations are an imperfect science, and that they do not typically perform in the NFL in the exact manner they come off the board. And to say nothing of the risk that is inherent anyway in the non-QB impact player that you went with instead of investing in a QB.
Schoen is doing himself no favors by punting on QB until the 2025 draft (or whenever).
That may be true but still walking a illogical path with QB risk. Avoiding drafting any one because they may not be the right one is only increasing the overall risk that Schoen can't turn around the team in time before his clock runs out.
Lock doesn't get Schoen any closer to the right guy in 2025 either.
Jones is not a good QB.
But's he not Zach Wilson or Mac Jones either.
If Jones can throw TD passes to Darius Slayton, he can do so with Malik Nabers.
Your bigger fear should be Malik making Jones look good.
But Jones can't throw touchdown passes to Slayton. I expect the Giants are at or near the bottom of the league in touchdown passes if you totaled up the past five years. I expect them to be at or near the bottom of the league again in 2024.
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it was going to be the "right QB" or Nabers via the draft.
That may be true but still walking a illogical path with QB risk. Avoiding drafting any one because they may not be the right one is only increasing the overall risk that Schoen can't turn around the team in time before his clock runs out.
Lock doesn't get Schoen any closer to the right guy in 2025 either.
Perhaps that greases the wheels to replace Schoen, ultimately.
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In comment 16499526 JonC said:
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it was going to be the "right QB" or Nabers via the draft.
That may be true but still walking a illogical path with QB risk. Avoiding drafting any one because they may not be the right one is only increasing the overall risk that Schoen can't turn around the team in time before his clock runs out.
Lock doesn't get Schoen any closer to the right guy in 2025 either.
Perhaps that greases the wheels to replace Schoen, ultimately.
We can all agree it's prolonging the agony, no doubt.
This is also why I beat the drum to draft Herbert in 2020, as I never liked Jones.
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"What impact is Nabers going to make with no one to get him the ball?"
Jones is not a good QB.
But's he not Zach Wilson or Mac Jones either.
If Jones can throw TD passes to Darius Slayton, he can do so with Malik Nabers.
Your bigger fear should be Malik making Jones look good.
But Jones can't throw touchdown passes to Slayton. I expect the Giants are at or near the bottom of the league in touchdown passes if you totaled up the past five years. I expect them to be at or near the bottom of the league again in 2024.
a 7 is better then a 5.
a 7 is better then a 5.
Or they think while he may be a 7, he will play down to a 5 with the current talent the Giants would have had without Nabers whereas in future years they think they are more likely to get a QB who is at least a 7 versus a WR of Nabers's caliber.
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that they don't view McCarthy as an upgrade over Jones should be setting off alarm bells for anyone watching them evaluate QB's.
a 7 is better then a 5.
Or they think while he may be a 7, he will play down to a 5 with the current talent the Giants would have had without Nabers whereas in future years they think they are more likely to get a QB who is at least a 7 versus a WR of Nabers's caliber.
I can see this point, although JJM seems like one of the QBs more likely to succeed with less than Penix or Nix. Nevertheless, I agree with your point and I think the fact that we still owe DJ 70 million minimum over the next two years was a factor too. We couldn't get the full benefit of the rookie deal, only 1/3-1/2 of it essentially.
Also, pretty sure he can read defenses, based on their actions in the draft just sayin’
Luv you guys :)
I think he can read defenses too, but in the same way my fifth grade son can read Ulysses.
Show him a diagrammed play on a chalkboard and I'm sure he can see elements that would elude all of us. But in real-time can he do it fast enough to take advantage? Doesn't seem like it.
The 7 in this case would also be cheaper and come with a sense of hope instead of despair.
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In comment 16498934 JT039 said:
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not drafting a QB who didnt meet the value - no plan
draft a QB at 8 who may sit at least 3 years - team with a plan.
Got it....
FLAG! Illegal strawman on the field.
No one here, to my knowledge at least, has admired the Falcons' pick. Maybe someone admired the player they picked, but has anyone said, "Damn, the Falcons sure know what they're doing!"
The Terps defender!!!!!
Is this what's bothering you that you say it even response to a post that had nothing to do with Terps? Shit, I'm sorry, when I feel up for defending someone who is very sensitive and makes witless insults I'll keep an eye out for your posts too.
The 7 in this case would also be cheaper and come with a sense of hope instead of despair.
But if they think they will have a shot at a 7 or better QB next year who will have Nabers versus taking the 7 this year and not thinking they will have that WR talent next year which is better in the long term? Coming with a sense of hope does nothing in terms of adding to win total.
Probably no Sanders, maybe no Ward, maybe no Milroe. Beck, Ewers, Dart, Leonard
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And will be debated endlessly on her for quite some time.
Equally concerning is the OL. This is a position group that hasn’t been solved for over a decade — across multiple GMs, HCs, and position coaches.
What was the solution this off-season? New OL coach and bargain FA band aid signings. Same playbook that’s been used in the past here multiple times. Then they leaned on that to avoid drafting OL in a deep class (fixed once and for all like Gettleman).
If they manage to get a QB in ‘25 or ‘26, most of these guys currently on the roster will be at or near the end of their respective contracts. So there’s a good chance we’ll be scrambling to fill out the OL depth chart at the same time we’re trying to bring on a new QB.
I can;'t figure out if you're not paying attention, trolling, or just this dense.
We can go with dense, because I’m not confident what they did this off-season sets the OL up for anything more than potential mediocrity and it sure as hell isn’t setting them up for the long term.
Green Bay and Oakland let our prized FA OL walk in FA for relatively cheap deals and added OL in the draft instead. What does that tell you?
Green Bay and Oakland let our prized FA OL walk in FA for relatively cheap deals and added OL in the draft instead. What does that tell you?
That's been a funny statement since the draft: the Giants are set along the offensive line. I could scarcely believe what I was reading in the thread about the Giants drafting no one in the trenches.
The Giants are set on the OL? OK...
So basically we have another rocket scientist playing the race card
Disgraceful
The time to move off Jones was after 2021.
I thought QB made sense this year since you could give him through 2025 and then reassess. This could align perfectly with a regime change too if it didn't work. The days of a 4 year runway are over. Look at Pickett.
Not to mention, this FO has shown repeatedly that they don't think a 7 is a clear upgrade over a 5 and I strongly suspect, they can't tell the difference between a 7 or a 5.
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Green Bay and Oakland let our prized FA OL walk in FA for relatively cheap deals and added OL in the draft instead. What does that tell you?
That's been a funny statement since the draft: the Giants are set along the offensive line. I could scarcely believe what I was reading in the thread about the Giants drafting no one in the trenches.
The Giants are set on the OL? OK...
Exactly. I know you’re laser focused on the QB position and rightfully so. But the OL has been the bigger problem for this franchise for well over a decade.
Their inability to get it right ruined the back half of Eli’s career and arguably got countless people fired. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Jones, the OL that’s been in place surely didn’t set him up to get the most out of him (whatever that is).
But the retort will be “but but but no one has spent more resources on the OL than the Giants.” Which is what was said 5 years ago, and 10 years ago. Which is a completely worthless and irrelevant talking point when you have a historically bad OL and arguably the worst OL in the league over the last decade.
What are you talking about?
That's been a funny statement since the draft: the Giants are set along the offensive line. I could scarcely believe what I was reading in the thread about the Giants drafting no one in the trenches.
The Giants are set on the OL? OK...
There were 55 OLs drafted across all positions. I believe the Giants were one of two teams in the draft who did not draft an OL. The other was Carolina. But they spent over $150M on Hunt and Lewis to fill their G issues.
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and keep that in mind when evaluating the QB's for next year. Mara has a type and anyone who can't pass that test won't be drafted by the team, regardless of talent.
So basically we have another rocket scientist playing the race card
Disgraceful
Not necessarily a race card. "Type" doesn't mean "race," and if Mara has a type, I would imagine that guys like Aaron Rodgers and Baker Mayfield don't fit.
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That's been a funny statement since the draft: the Giants are set along the offensive line. I could scarcely believe what I was reading in the thread about the Giants drafting no one in the trenches.
The Giants are set on the OL? OK...
There were 55 OLs drafted across all positions. I believe the Giants were one of two teams in the draft who did not draft an OL. The other was Carolina. But they spent over $150M on Hunt and Lewis to fill their G issues.
And the Giants spent $44 million on two OL starters and another $6 million on three veteran back-ups who have started. We'll see which was the smarter strategy.
It isn’t haircut. Mara wants milquetoast.
Care to clarify the racial angle ?
What are you talking about?
Relative to the rest of the market? Yes.
These moves weren’t that different than signing Feliciano and Glowinski a few years ago.
Feliciano was signed to 1-year, $3.25 million deal. Glowinksi was signed to a 3-year, $18 million deal.
There were 55 OLs drafted across all positions. I believe the Giants were one of two teams in the draft who did not draft an OL. The other was Carolina. But they spent over $150M on Hunt and Lewis to fill their G issues.
And the Giants spent $44 million on two OL starters and another $6 million on three veteran back-ups who have started. We'll see which was the smarter strategy.
Right.
I just noticed Washington had a similar investment strategy in free agency. They invested $44M on two starters and another $4.5M on two back-ups. But they drafted an OG in the third round, Brandon Coleman.
Giants #1 in OL Draft Capital Investment the past 5 yrs - ( New Window )
Feliciano was signed to 1-year, $3.25 million deal. Glowinksi was signed to a 3-year, $18 million deal.
Glowinski was 3 for 20 2 years ago. I think it’s a fair assumption that he’d be looking at 3 for 30 if he was hitting the market now vs then.
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In comment 16499991 bw in dc said:
There were 55 OLs drafted across all positions. I believe the Giants were one of two teams in the draft who did not draft an OL. The other was Carolina. But they spent over $150M on Hunt and Lewis to fill their G issues.
And the Giants spent $44 million on two OL starters and another $6 million on three veteran back-ups who have started. We'll see which was the smarter strategy.
Right.
I just noticed Washington had a similar investment strategy in free agency. They invested $44M on two starters and another $4.5M on two back-ups. But they drafted an OG in the third round, Brandon Coleman.
Redskins also cut some OL so they netted fewer OL than the Giants
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3-years, $30 million is a big investment for a guard.
Feliciano was signed to 1-year, $3.25 million deal. Glowinksi was signed to a 3-year, $18 million deal.
Glowinski was 3 for 20 2 years ago. I think it’s a fair assumption that he’d be looking at 3 for 30 if he was hitting the market now vs then.
Just take the loss.
You're dead wrong.
They have spent more draft capital on the position than any other team in the last five years (not opinion, statistical reality).
They have spent big money on the OL in the last 10 years.
It's not the commitment, it's the results.
But it doesn't fit your narrative so you keep saying the sky isn't blue.
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In comment 16500075 Eric from BBI said:
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3-years, $30 million is a big investment for a guard.
Feliciano was signed to 1-year, $3.25 million deal. Glowinksi was signed to a 3-year, $18 million deal.
Glowinski was 3 for 20 2 years ago. I think it’s a fair assumption that he’d be looking at 3 for 30 if he was hitting the market now vs then.
Just take the loss.
You're dead wrong.
They have spent more draft capital on the position than any other team in the last five years (not opinion, statistical reality).
They have spent big money on the OL in the last 10 years.
It's not the commitment, it's the results.
But it doesn't fit your narrative so you keep saying the sky isn't blue.
Why does that matter?
Their OL is dogshit and has been dogshit for over a decade. What picks they’ve used or money they’ve spent in the past is completely irrelevant.
RIGHT NOW they’re coming off a historically bad OL season and their solution is to bargain shop vets and hope to coach up Neal. Zero added in the draft. If the OL sucks yet again, they deserve to be scrutinized for that just as much if not more as the QB decision.
The FO acknowledged the OL is a problem. The owner acknowledged it’s a problem. They’ve actually been more transparent about the shittiness of the OL than the QB position.
Going into Thursday, if I told you we would come out of this draft with no OLs or DLs, would you have believed me?
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Giants had six picks.
Going into Thursday, if I told you we would come out of this draft with no OLs or DLs, would you have believed me?
Yes. I wrote an article on it. I said the Giants had more needs than picks and six wasn't going to cover it. OL was an obvious candidate because of their free agent activity.
All of your posts were "the Giants ignore the trenches."
The good news is we've landed at dense as the answer.
Redskins also cut some OL so they netted fewer OL than the Giants
I get it. It just seems the entire league is always chasing OLs and keeping that pipeline lined with young prospects is a good idea.
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Redskins also cut some OL so they netted fewer OL than the Giants
I get it. It just seems the entire league is always chasing OLs and keeping that pipeline lined with young prospects is a good idea.
Didn’t we draft McKathean, Ezuedu, Neal, and JSS the last two drafts?
How many OL should we have? After signing something like 7 this offseason?
It’s like people ignore facts here.
All of your posts were "the Giants ignore the trenches."
The good news is we've landed at dense as the answer.
If you can’t see the point I’m making then that’s your problem. But carry on, I’ll be looking forward to your empty “but the giants spend so much on the OL” after yet another year of shitty OL play. The same boilerplate retort you’ve been saying for a decade.
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In comment 16500087 Mike in NY said:
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Redskins also cut some OL so they netted fewer OL than the Giants
I get it. It just seems the entire league is always chasing OLs and keeping that pipeline lined with young prospects is a good idea.
Didn’t we draft McKathean, Ezuedu, Neal, and JSS the last two drafts?
How many OL should we have? After signing something like 7 this offseason?
It’s like people ignore facts here.
How many are actually worth a shit? If Schoen signed you tomorrow as OG depth, should we feel better about the OL because he added another body?
You're also not listening.
Bad combination.
FFS, there are other positions of need.
Didn’t we draft McKathean, Ezuedu, Neal, and JSS the last two drafts?
How many OL should we have? After signing something like 7 this offseason?
It’s like people ignore facts here.
While it is true we have drafted a lot and signed a lot, I'm not sure why that would preclude us from shopping for more. Especially with all of the duds we have landed trying to fix the problem for a decade.
I don't recall all of the pre-draft discussions, but many were about finding other OLs in this draft.
When I saw we were one of two teams that didn't draft one, that surprised me. So, I raised it. I would not have imagined wondering why we didn't draft more OL would suddenly be considered taboo around here.
They had six picks.
They had significant needs at QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, CB, S.
They had six picks.
They had significant needs at QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, CB, S.
I cede the point on the six picks.
It's not as incredulous as not drafting a QB, but it is amazing to me that that was the outcome. With our history over the last decade trying to solve that grouping, I still would have thought we would grab one.
They had six picks.
They had significant needs at QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, CB, S.
Eric, to bw’s point, we had offer(s) to trade down and still get what we had graded as a first round talent although maybe not quite as high as Nabers. Brian Thomas Jr. or our choice of defensive players plus other picks might prove better than Nabers alone if we determined that no QB was worth #6 after Maye was drafted. Additionally, in Round 6 while you aren’t getting elite talent, someone like Christian Mahogany or Michael Pratt might have helped more than our actual pick who was the type of player teams sign as UDFA.
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they would have loved to have added offensive linemen. They would have loved to added 5 new players at every position.
They had six picks.
They had significant needs at QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, CB, S.
Eric, to bw’s point, we had offer(s) to trade down and still get what we had graded as a first round talent although maybe not quite as high as Nabers. Brian Thomas Jr. or our choice of defensive players plus other picks might prove better than Nabers alone if we determined that no QB was worth #6 after Maye was drafted. Additionally, in Round 6 while you aren’t getting elite talent, someone like Christian Mahogany or Michael Pratt might have helped more than our actual pick who was the type of player teams sign as UDFA.
Our 6th round pick is supposedly an excellent special teams player and a very good coverage LB. Two areas of need on the team.
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In comment 16500227 Eric from BBI said:
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they would have loved to have added offensive linemen. They would have loved to added 5 new players at every position.
They had six picks.
They had significant needs at QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DL, CB, S.
Eric, to bw’s point, we had offer(s) to trade down and still get what we had graded as a first round talent although maybe not quite as high as Nabers. Brian Thomas Jr. or our choice of defensive players plus other picks might prove better than Nabers alone if we determined that no QB was worth #6 after Maye was drafted. Additionally, in Round 6 while you aren’t getting elite talent, someone like Christian Mahogany or Michael Pratt might have helped more than our actual pick who was the type of player teams sign as UDFA.
Our 6th round pick is supposedly an excellent special teams player and a very good coverage LB. Two areas of need on the team.
I will give you special teams, but in terms of coverage his lack of size and speed make him more of a 2 down run stuffer versus someone you want in space against TE from the scouting reports I saw. That makes him more like Micah McFadden.