I like the way we are building up our roster, the roster is indeed trending in the right direction. Nevertheless, we have to be realistic about Daniel Jones forced to play against defenses that don't revolve around stopping Saquon. DJ has had this benefit his entire career and the results have been rough without Saquon. Opposing defenses are not going to have to focus on stopping Singletary and Co. In fact, Singletary has always benefited from solid offensive lines and good quarterbacks.
Here is DJ's stats without Saquon in past years:
2023: 3 games, 460 yards passing on 86 attempts 5.3ypa with 0 tds and 3 ints
2022: DJ's best year with 15 passing touchdowns came in a great year for Saquon in which Saquon missed no games.
2021: 6 games, 1042 yards passing on 187 attempts 5.57ypa with 5 tds and 6 ints
2020: 12 games, 2663yds on 407 attempts 6.5ypa, 9 tds 8ints
This is something to consider when imagining how we will do this year, even though our roster is trending in the right direction. We have to be realistic about the numbers. Even in games when Saquon couldn't do anything, the defenses completely revolved around stopping him. That makes it much easier for a QB, and DJ still didn't do very well with Saquon. Nevertheless, the numbers when facing defenses that didn't have to focus on stopping Saquon are very rough.
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In comment 16499300 jestersdead said:
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1) The Giants relied on SB to carry the offense
2) Jones didn't elevate his play when SB was out of the lineup
The numbers say he not only didn't elevate his play, but he struggled mightily. It will all come down to DJ attacking defenses downfield. If he can't, then they can very easily shut down Nabers, Wandale, Hyatt and Singletary. It's not hard to focus on pressuring the QB and stopping everything underneath if the QB doesn't relieve himself of the pressure and open things up with downfield throws. DJ hasn't been able to do this for years, now defenses will be able to focus on pressuring the passer more than ever. So, even with better o line play we could see the same amount of pressure in the pocket on DJ.
Agreed. Im not as optimistic as others are.
Nabers is a great addition to WR but it does very little if the QB cannot get him the ball
He just has to make some throws downfield or it will be really easy for defenses to tee off on him while stopping quick throws. That's what the entire season will come down to.
Our passing game for the last several years has been dreadful, and it doesn't matter if opposing Defenses bring pressure or play coverage. Daniel Jones isn't beating them with his arm/head.
How many defensive players in the past year or so have publicly come out and said how they easily read DJ in the passing game?
That can easily be stopped if opposing defenses just camp down on the short throws in zone. Nabers success will be predicated upon DJ opening things up with downfield throws.
Our passing game for the last several years has been dreadful, and it doesn't matter if opposing Defenses bring pressure or play coverage. Daniel Jones isn't beating them with his arm/head.
How many defensive players in the past year or so have publicly come out and said how they easily read DJ in the passing game?
Shallow zone coverage while overloading the offensive line would stop both the run and short pass game. If DJ can hit throws downfield, then everything opens up including the run game. That's what it all will come down to, DJ has struggled mightily with this since his rookie year. Nabers snd the offensive line really won't matter much if DJ can't attack downfield it will be incredibly simple for defenses to shut down our offense.
2019:
Shepard, Engram, Tate, Bennie Fowler, Slayton, Kaden Smith, Cody Latimer
2020:
Shepard, Engram, Slayton, CJ Board, Tate, K Smith, Austin Mack, Toilolo
2021:
Toney, Shepard, John Ross, Board, Golladay, Kyle Rudolph, K Smith, Myrick, Sills
2022:
James, Bellinger, Wan’Dale Robinson, Toney, Golladay, Cager, Sills, Marcus Johnson, Nick Vannett, Myrarick, Hodgins
2023:
Hyatt, Robinson, Waller, Bellinger, Campbell, Hodgins
Which one of these guys was he holding back and defenses were scared of?
I actually feel bad for Shurmur, Judge and McAdoo
So would I, the results will be the same if DJ can't attack downfield though. I'm not saying he can't do that, but the entire offense will depend on him doing that. Otherwise, it will be extremely easy for defenses to stop us.
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Jones had 24 TD passes with Barkley...
These are his numbers without Barkley.
Barkley missed three games in 2019, Jones had 3 TDs and 6 INTs. One win and two losses. Half his INTs were in those 3 games.
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10 out of 10 times. It’s not even close honestly.
So would I, the results will be the same if DJ can't attack downfield though. I'm not saying he can't do that, but the entire offense will depend on him doing that. Otherwise, it will be extremely easy for defenses to stop us.
I'm a broken record. To couple the point above on complete lack of playmakers at WR, the OL has been horrendous which effected Barkley as much as DJ. How many times against a good front 7 did we watch Barkley get hit as soon as he got the ball, and behind the LoS? Many of his good runs were a herculean effort avoiding 1st and 2nd tacklers that were on top of him as soon as he got the ball. I'm disgusted to see what Barkley looks like on that Philly offense (if they continue to have strong blocking without Kelce)
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In comment 16499232 JCassmen said:
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Jones had 24 TD passes with Barkley...
These are his numbers without Barkley.
Barkley missed three games in 2019, Jones had 3 TDs and 6 INTs. One win and two losses. Half his INTs were in those 3 games.
Good point.
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Saquon is there or not. Simply because putting the onus on the NYG passing game to convert third downs or come back from second half deficits is a very simple winning strategy for the opposition. I would imagine Defensive Coordinators like simple winning strategies.
Our passing game for the last several years has been dreadful, and it doesn't matter if opposing Defenses bring pressure or play coverage. Daniel Jones isn't beating them with his arm/head.
How many defensive players in the past year or so have publicly come out and said how they easily read DJ in the passing game?
Shallow zone coverage while overloading the offensive line would stop both the run and short pass game. If DJ can hit throws downfield, then everything opens up including the run game. That's what it all will come down to, DJ has struggled mightily with this since his rookie year. Nabers snd the offensive line really won't matter much if DJ can't attack downfield it will be incredibly simple for defenses to shut down our offense.
Any type of Defense works against DJ and this Offensive Line, including just simple Base. Just look at the first half scoring from our Offense in the last several years...has to be at the very bottom of the league.
Yeah, Defenses were really worried about Saquon. Ha Ha.
That's a good point. Saquon will be amazing when he's healthy with a solid offensive line and a passing game that makes throws downfield. They won't run him to death like we did either, which should help a lot with injuries and production.
Bingo. Isaiah Hodgins was their best receiver. Now he's #5 or 6 on the depth chart.
2019:
Shepard, Engram, Tate, Bennie Fowler, Slayton, Kaden Smith, Cody Latimer
2020:
Shepard, Engram, Slayton, CJ Board, Tate, K Smith, Austin Mack, Toilolo
2021:
Toney, Shepard, John Ross, Board, Golladay, Kyle Rudolph, K Smith, Myrick, Sills
2022:
James, Bellinger, Wan’Dale Robinson, Toney, Golladay, Cager, Sills, Marcus Johnson, Nick Vannett, Myrarick, Hodgins
2023:
Hyatt, Robinson, Waller, Bellinger, Campbell, Hodgins
Which one of these guys was he holding back and defenses were scared of?
Wow that is gross to look at on paper
All of them
I don’t expect much from Jones but I do believe there’s room for improvement. Since he’s now on the team and will be our starting QB if healthy, might as well get used to talking about how they can make him better.
For another, no single player on our roster is replacing Barkley, nor should that be the goal. However, 2 or 3 guys may approximate Barkley's production, especially if our passing game is improved.
Over reliance on Barkley against defense stacked to stop him may be a good thing to get away from.
Hyatt
With: 5 targets 4 catches 99 yards 0 td
W/O: 35 targets 18 catches 274 yards 0 td
Waller
With: 34 targets 23 catches 219 yards 0 td
W/O: 40 targets 29 catches 340 yards 1 td
Bellinger:
With: 4 targets 4 catches 22 yards 0 td
W/O: 24 targets 21 catches 233 yards 0 td
Robinson:
With: 17 targets 14 catches 79 yards 0 td
W/O: 61 targets 46 catches 446 yards 1 td
Slayton:
With: 24 targets 13 catches 167 yards 0 td
W/O: 55 targets 37 catches 603 yards 4 td
Hodgins isn't here but what the hell
With: 14 targets 10 catches 107 yards 1 td
W/O: 19 targets 11 catches 123 yards 2 td
Barkley has not been the explosive back he was during his rookie season. Still an effective back, yes, but so are many others. He also never was good at short yardage for a guy with tree trunk quads! Figure that one out?! I don’t believe Barkley would make a difference this year.
Different position, sure... but arguably it's more important to have the #1 WR in this era of the NFL.
Therefore, I'm not overly worried about how losing Saquon with affect Jones... long story short, this is probably the best O-line DJ has ever been behind and the best collection of weapons surrounding him...
... it's now or never, regardless of Saquon.
Barkley has not been the explosive back he was during his rookie season. Still an effective back, yes, but so are many others. He also never was good at short yardage for a guy with tree trunk quads! Figure that one out?! I don’t believe Barkley would make a difference this year.
How does Mahomes play without Kelce? Allen without Diggs?
The Giants have never put a competent WR group on the field. They are either hurt or no good.
Where is the thread on how Jones plays when he has a #1 WR? 2019 he had Slayton and Barkley barely gaining 1000 yards. His rookie year projected out to a full season was 4200 yards and 34 TDs and 270 yards rushing with 2 TDs. For reference, in 2018 with a great Barkley, Eli Manning had 4299 yards and 21 TDs, 700 rec yards to Barkley, he also had Odell with 1000 yards.
You can spin numbers any way you want.
How does Mahomes play without Kelce? Allen without Diggs?
The Giants have never put a competent WR group on the field. They are either hurt or no good.
Where is the thread on how Jones plays when he has a #1 WR? 2019 he had Slayton and Barkley barely gaining 1000 yards. His rookie year projected out to a full season was 4200 yards and 34 TDs and 270 yards rushing with 2 TDs. For reference, in 2018 with a great Barkley, Eli Manning had 4299 yards and 21 TDs, 700 rec yards to Barkley, he also had Odell with 1000 yards.
You can spin numbers any way you want.
Im not spinning numbers. I'm imagining how defenses will play us without Saquon, how that will look, how DJ could thrive with what we have now against defenses playing us without Saquon. How do you predict the defenses will strategies? How can DJ thrive? That's what the thread is about. I say they will play shallow zone with pressuring the qb via stunts and twists. DJ will need to hit throws doenfield to open the offense up and that will be the make or break point of the offense and season: can DJ hit throws downfield to counter how defenses will likely play us?
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All of the top QBs have one or multiple weapons. Mostly receivers and TEs. For the majority of Jones career Barkley has been injured even when on the field. 2022 Barkley fell off a cliff about midway through the season. Last season he was trash. The last 7 games of 2022 Barkley averaged 3.9 yards per carry and all of 2023 he averaged 3.9 per carry. He wasn’t a great back for most of Jones career. 9 games in 2022 and that’s it.
How does Mahomes play without Kelce? Allen without Diggs?
The Giants have never put a competent WR group on the field. They are either hurt or no good.
Where is the thread on how Jones plays when he has a #1 WR? 2019 he had Slayton and Barkley barely gaining 1000 yards. His rookie year projected out to a full season was 4200 yards and 34 TDs and 270 yards rushing with 2 TDs. For reference, in 2018 with a great Barkley, Eli Manning had 4299 yards and 21 TDs, 700 rec yards to Barkley, he also had Odell with 1000 yards.
You can spin numbers any way you want.
Im not spinning numbers. I'm imagining how defenses will play us without Saquon, how that will look, how DJ could thrive with what we have now against defenses playing us without Saquon. How do you predict the defenses will strategies? How can DJ thrive? That's what the thread is about. I say they will play shallow zone with pressuring the qb via stunts and twists. DJ will need to hit throws doenfield to open the offense up and that will be the make or break point of the offense and season: can DJ hit throws downfield to counter how defenses will likely play us?
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In comment 16499633 Rudy5757 said:
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All of the top QBs have one or multiple weapons. Mostly receivers and TEs. For the majority of Jones career Barkley has been injured even when on the field. 2022 Barkley fell off a cliff about midway through the season. Last season he was trash. The last 7 games of 2022 Barkley averaged 3.9 yards per carry and all of 2023 he averaged 3.9 per carry. He wasn’t a great back for most of Jones career. 9 games in 2022 and that’s it.
How does Mahomes play without Kelce? Allen without Diggs?
The Giants have never put a competent WR group on the field. They are either hurt or no good.
Where is the thread on how Jones plays when he has a #1 WR? 2019 he had Slayton and Barkley barely gaining 1000 yards. His rookie year projected out to a full season was 4200 yards and 34 TDs and 270 yards rushing with 2 TDs. For reference, in 2018 with a great Barkley, Eli Manning had 4299 yards and 21 TDs, 700 rec yards to Barkley, he also had Odell with 1000 yards.
You can spin numbers any way you want.
Im not spinning numbers. I'm imagining how defenses will play us without Saquon, how that will look, how DJ could thrive with what we have now against defenses playing us without Saquon. How do you predict the defenses will strategies? How can DJ thrive? That's what the thread is about. I say they will play shallow zone with pressuring the qb via stunts and twists. DJ will need to hit throws doenfield to open the offense up and that will be the make or break point of the offense and season: can DJ hit throws downfield to counter how defenses will likely play us?
I would also like to see a lot of quick slants and ins. They now have fast and dynamic players who can do damage with the ball in their hands. That counters some pressure.
I agree, but I don't think those will be that effective unless DJ stretches the field. Shallow zones with defenses just focusing on a short field while emphasizing Nabers will be tough without opening things up via downfield throws. It's all on DJ really. I'm excited to see.
I get it that everyone thinks Jones sucks. I personally think he is a middle tier NFL starter that you can win with when he's healthy.
Go back to the game in 2021 under Judge against the Cowboys. For once DJ had a valid weapon in Kadarius Toney who ends up with 100 yards before the half. Giants are in that game, but then Jones goes out with a concussion while trying to be a hero and score on a run.
Aside from terrible OL play again look at the WRs:
Pass Catcher that has started games with Jones Career.
2019:
Shepard, Engram, Tate, Bennie Fowler, Slayton, Kaden Smith, Cody Latimer
2020:
Shepard, Engram, Slayton, CJ Board, Tate, K Smith, Austin Mack, Toilolo
2021:
Toney, Shepard, John Ross, Board, Golladay, Kyle Rudolph, K Smith, Myrick, Sills
2022:
James, Bellinger, Wan’Dale Robinson, Toney, Golladay, Cager, Sills, Marcus Johnson, Nick Vannett, Myrarick, Hodgins
2023:
Hyatt, Robinson, Waller, Bellinger, Campbell, Hodgins
I get it that everyone thinks Jones sucks. I personally think he is a middle tier NFL starter that you can win with when he's healthy.
Go back to the game in 2021 under Judge against the Cowboys. For once DJ had a valid weapon in Kadarius Toney who ends up with 100 yards before the half. Giants are in that game, but then Jones goes out with a concussion while trying to be a hero and score on a run.
Aside from terrible OL play again look at the WRs:
Pass Catcher that has started games with Jones Career.
2019:
Shepard, Engram, Tate, Bennie Fowler, Slayton, Kaden Smith, Cody Latimer
2020:
Shepard, Engram, Slayton, CJ Board, Tate, K Smith, Austin Mack, Toilolo
2021:
Toney, Shepard, John Ross, Board, Golladay, Kyle Rudolph, K Smith, Myrick, Sills
2022:
James, Bellinger, Wan’Dale Robinson, Toney, Golladay, Cager, Sills, Marcus Johnson, Nick Vannett, Myrarick, Hodgins
2023:
Hyatt, Robinson, Waller, Bellinger, Campbell, Hodgins
My fear is that he is a middle tier starter when at his best. This year we will see once and for all.
My fear is that he is a middle tier starter when at his best. This year we will see once and for all.
I don't disagree. My biggest problem with him has always been consistency. Like that second half against AZ last year.
Giants NEED better blocking. Giants need better WR play. It looks like these are better than they were, at least at WR. OL TBD. But of course Jones needs to be better, and much more consistent. I feel like if the OL comes together, this can be the case, and we can absolutely replicate 2022 this year (from a win/loss and playoff perspective), with less Jones scrambling and better passing numbers. But if we want to beat Dallas and Philly, the OL absolutely must MUST be better. They have dominated us at the LoS for too long. It's in everyone's best interest for Jones to do well, if for nothing else other than trade value next year. I don't think Jones is the long term answer, but for crissakes at least let's kepp building and be competitive until they find the next franchise guy.
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My fear is that he is a middle tier starter when at his best. This year we will see once and for all.
I don't disagree. My biggest problem with him has always been consistency. Like that second half against AZ last year.
Giants NEED better blocking. Giants need better WR play. It looks like these are better than they were, at least at WR. OL TBD. But of course Jones needs to be better, and much more consistent. I feel like if the OL comes together, this can be the case, and we can absolutely replicate 2022 this year (from a win/loss and playoff perspective), with less Jones scrambling and better passing numbers. But if we want to beat Dallas and Philly, the OL absolutely must MUST be better. They have dominated us at the LoS for too long. It's in everyone's best interest for Jones to do well, if for nothing else other than trade value next year. I don't think Jones is the long term answer, but for crissakes at least let's kepp building and be competitive until they find the next franchise guy.
I agree with this, but I don't think 2022 will be replicated only because we had a fairly easy schedule that year. This year our schedule is very challenging.
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In comment 16499711 BleedBlue46 said:
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My fear is that he is a middle tier starter when at his best. This year we will see once and for all.
I don't disagree. My biggest problem with him has always been consistency. Like that second half against AZ last year.
Giants NEED better blocking. Giants need better WR play. It looks like these are better than they were, at least at WR. OL TBD. But of course Jones needs to be better, and much more consistent. I feel like if the OL comes together, this can be the case, and we can absolutely replicate 2022 this year (from a win/loss and playoff perspective), with less Jones scrambling and better passing numbers. But if we want to beat Dallas and Philly, the OL absolutely must MUST be better. They have dominated us at the LoS for too long. It's in everyone's best interest for Jones to do well, if for nothing else other than trade value next year. I don't think Jones is the long term answer, but for crissakes at least let's kepp building and be competitive until they find the next franchise guy.
I agree with this, but I don't think 2022 will be replicated only because we had a fairly easy schedule that year. This year our schedule is very challenging.
But we can't really know that yet. On paper based on last year, yes. But injury, luck etc. will knock some teams down and other teams up a few notches. It's different every year.
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In comment 16499727 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 16499711 BleedBlue46 said:
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My fear is that he is a middle tier starter when at his best. This year we will see once and for all.
I don't disagree. My biggest problem with him has always been consistency. Like that second half against AZ last year.
Giants NEED better blocking. Giants need better WR play. It looks like these are better than they were, at least at WR. OL TBD. But of course Jones needs to be better, and much more consistent. I feel like if the OL comes together, this can be the case, and we can absolutely replicate 2022 this year (from a win/loss and playoff perspective), with less Jones scrambling and better passing numbers. But if we want to beat Dallas and Philly, the OL absolutely must MUST be better. They have dominated us at the LoS for too long. It's in everyone's best interest for Jones to do well, if for nothing else other than trade value next year. I don't think Jones is the long term answer, but for crissakes at least let's kepp building and be competitive until they find the next franchise guy.
I agree with this, but I don't think 2022 will be replicated only because we had a fairly easy schedule that year. This year our schedule is very challenging.
But we can't really know that yet. On paper based on last year, yes. But injury, luck etc. will knock some teams down and other teams up a few notches. It's different every year.
For.sure, there's always a wide range of possibilities and that unpredictable parity is part of the fun. We could really be anywhere from 2-15 to 11-6 I'd say which is anywhere from 4.5 games under our o/u of 6.5 to 4.5 over.
I feel like 2 wins is as likely as 11, hence the wide spread ;)
Like a parabola of win possibilities from 2-11 with the most probable being 6-7 wins.
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but it would mean Jones got hurt again and Lock is also awful. I think last years record is a pretty good starting point, give or take a game. Pretty sure Vegas has us at 6.5 wins right now.
I feel like 2 wins is as likely as 11, hence the wide spread ;)
Ha, I feel the same way. I have no idea what to expect anymore. I certainly wouldn't bet money either way at this point.
Daniel Jones without Saquon = He Stinks more.
2019:
Shepard, Engram, Tate, Bennie Fowler, Slayton, Kaden Smith, Cody Latimer
2020:
Shepard, Engram, Slayton, CJ Board, Tate, K Smith, Austin Mack, Toilolo
2021:
Toney, Shepard, John Ross, Board, Golladay, Kyle Rudolph, K Smith, Myrick, Sills
2022:
James, Bellinger, Wan’Dale Robinson, Toney, Golladay, Cager, Sills, Marcus Johnson, Nick Vannett, Myrarick, Hodgins
2023:
Hyatt, Robinson, Waller, Bellinger, Campbell, Hodgins
Which one of these guys was he holding back and defenses were scared of?
Jones went downhill when the Giants got rid of his favorite practice receiver, Benny Fowler
How does Evan Engram look with a competent WQB throwing him the ball since he escaped Dan Jones.. 2nd most catches by TE in history.
Sure out WRs haven't been a strength but the QB isn't doing them any favors either, I thought it was hilarious that Kenny Gs only TD in 2 seasons was the one game Davis Webb played in lol. Not to mention how are WRs like Wandale and Hyatt looked more explosive when TT and Cutlets played
How does Evan Engram look with a competent WQB throwing him the ball since he escaped Dan Jones.. 2nd most catches by TE in history.
Sure out WRs haven't been a strength but the QB isn't doing them any favors either, I thought it was hilarious that Kenny Gs only TD in 2 seasons was the one game Davis Webb played in lol. Not to mention how are WRs like Wandale and Hyatt looked more explosive when TT and Cutlets played
Do you watch the games? Wan'Dale and Jones have barely played together due to both having injuries and Hyatt didn't light up anything last year.
On to Engram. How many balls hit him in the hands here that he flat out dropped or caused interceptions? He cost us the Philly game with a huge drop. Also look at Engrams YPC
How does Evan Engram look with a competent WQB throwing him the ball since he escaped Dan Jones.. 2nd most catches by TE in history.
Sure out WRs haven't been a strength but the QB isn't doing them any favors either, I thought it was hilarious that Kenny Gs only TD in 2 seasons was the one game Davis Webb played in lol. Not to mention how are WRs like Wandale and Hyatt looked more explosive when TT and Cutlets played
Yes it was the QBs fault that the ball went through or bounced off Engram's hands. JFC.
2 new vet OL starters (and 3 for depth)
Hopeful improvement from JMS and Neal (or replaced)
Malik Nabers....
Other reasons for optimism on the offense -
WR - Hyatt can be much improved and paired with Nabers SPEED.
Slayton is a decent #2 and will have better match-ups
WanDale is healthy and very quick
Hodgins catches everything
TE- Bellinger was better before Waller, and should be improved over last season. Hopefully Theo will contribute early.
RB
A better OL should ensure that the RB position is not a bif drop-off from last season.
Dan Jones without Saquon = He stinks more
Imagine overdrafting and keeping a stiff like Dan Jones as starter for 6 years. No wonder Giants have been a poverty franchise for majority of the last decade.