Let's play hypothetical here for a minute:
Suppose the upcoming season for us unfolds in a manner akin to the last, with the team languishing near the bottom of the league standings and Daniel Jones either suffering injuries, sucking, or both (I know, how farfetched.). Considering Jones' contract includes provisions that facilitate his release without much financial repercussions, the pertinent question then becomes: Should the leadership duo of Brian Daboll and Joe Schoen be retained to select a new quarterback, theoretically "their guy"?
Last season, despite its disappointing outcome, saw a relatively patient and forgiving fanbase. Many advocated for giving Schoen and Daboll another year and drafting a QB who could redefine the team's fortunes. Efforts were made to secure Drake Maye, but despite our best efforts, the trade did not materialize. While this failed acquisition isn't necessarily Schoen's fault, it underscores the challenges and unpredictabilities of securing top draft talent.
But I digress. We didn't get our franchise QB and will have to punt that decision for another year. Back to the scenario: Daboll, celebrated as a quarterback whisperer and offensive savant, and Schoen have not yet had the opportunity to draft their future franchise quarterback. However, it's also arguable that by extending Jones' contract, they effectively made a significant commitment to him as "their guy," which complicates the narrative should another poor season occur under their leadership.
Looking ahead, if the team does indeed mirror last year's performance, what course of action should be taken? Maintaining the status quo, thus allowing Schoen and Daboll another year and giving them the opportunity to shape the franchise by drafting their quarterback. Alternatively, could a change in head coach, but not GM, be in the cards -— perhaps replacing Daboll with a proven head coach like Mike Vrabel or even Bill Belichick? Or do we show both the door and start anew and give the new GM and HC the ability to draft that QB?
And I don't care how much DJ isn't their guy and they wanted to replace him, if he's qb1 then they're sinking or swimming with him
I want Daboll to select and develop a franchise QB for us. Even in the situation we're in, he still got a playoff win out of Daniel Jones and had Tommy DeVito looking like a possible answer for a game or so span. He's a good coach, he's good with QBs. If this season fails its more on the roster than him.
While I still have faith in Schoen, we need more out of our draft picks, period... If this draft flops, Evan Neal doesn't turn it around and some of the later picks don't develop, we really need to consider changing the guy picking players.
If we just offered Daniel what he's worth - 1 year, $10 M - and proceeded from there we'd be in much better. If he declined, then sign one of the 40 or 50 guys in the league who can give you that level of production. Meanwhile, take some swings in the mid rounds to try to find a Dak, Wilson, Cousins.
And just communicate it - right now we are making small investments in guys with potential who we are going to develop. We will make a larger investment in either draft picks or money if and when we are confident in the player.
I think a lot of the fan bases in NY have more patience than we get credit for. Especially if there is honesty and the actions match the words. The Coddle Daniel approach is only going to make people mad. We can see through all this stuff.
If Jones or Lock look decent however and they get 8 or 9 wins and the tier 2 2024 QBs look underwhelming, then let's see if they grab a QB in 2025. If they don't, repeat the same process in the 2025 season (the QBs they have must look decent while the QBs they passed on must struggle).
I'm confident Belichick would do those things, as I would be if the job went to Vrabel, Tomlin, Harbaugh, these types. I'm not confident in that happening right now with Daboll having to basically turn over the entire coaching staff and the quarterback situation being so mismanaged these three years.
Vegas has the Giants at 6.5 wins and -550 to miss the playoffs. It feels like this is going on the wrong direction. That's not pessimism; it's just observation and deduction.
Belichick would be a steady hand to get things going in the right direction, and focusing on what's going to win games in December and January.
I agree Terps. We’ll see how this season plays out, but another poor finish (especially if we are seeing player tantrums and signs Daboll’s lost the team) would signal it’s time for a change. Belichick would definitely help restore some order to the team.
I'm confident Belichick would do those things, as I would be if the job went to Vrabel, Tomlin, Harbaugh, these types. I'm not confident in that happening right now with Daboll having to basically turn over the entire coaching staff and the quarterback situation being so mismanaged these three years.
Vegas has the Giants at 6.5 wins and -550 to miss the playoffs. It feels like this is going on the wrong direction. That's not pessimism; it's just observation and deduction.
Belichick would be a steady hand to get things going in the right direction, and focusing on what's going to win games in December and January.
how about winning games in September and October?
first we crawl, then we walk.....
Then in 2023 they likely felt it wasn't much better aside from the top of the class which we weren't anywhere in range. Yes we blew it by not franchising Daniel (who I am tired of rooting for in full transparency).
Then our team did not tank in 2023 to reserve a top spot. That does absolutely suck we lost draft position but it actually proves to me the right people are in the building. Jesus, they freaking developed Tommy Devito to win games after not trusting him to throw a pass.
We tried to trade to 1, then 2, then 3 in 2024 draft. I mean, what are we supposed to do? I respect the conviction of not wasting the draft capital for a QB at 6 when they believed they were likely 2nd round values.
I actually think Schoen has done a great job aside from the Jones/Barkley decision last year. Neal was plain bad luck, and hopefully they move move past that in same other solution this year. I like Daboll too. I don't think this year should be a referendum on them unless it is a disaster. Daniel Jones will be gone before they will.
And why do people act like Daboll and Schoen have a track record of Ozzie newsome and bill walsh? I am still hopeful for them but they have a ton to prove.
If they have another bad year I would be all over Vrabel or Belichick. How could you argue against that?
And why do people act like Daboll and Schoen have a track record of Ozzie newsome and bill walsh? I am still hopeful for them but they have a ton to prove.
If they have another bad year I would be all over Vrabel or Belichick. How could you argue against that?
Jeez - they've been here 2 years - 1 was a dramatic shift in culture with a playoff win predicated on the offense kicking the crap out of Minnesota. 2 was an absolute failure early and yes they blew it with the gamble on Daniel, but they righted the ship and finished strong. I don't see what the haters see despite being sick of rooting for Daniel Jones, who I hope never plays another snap for us.
And why do people act like Daboll and Schoen have a track record of Ozzie newsome and bill walsh? I am still hopeful for them but they have a ton to prove.
If they have another bad year I would be all over Vrabel or Belichick. How could you argue against that?
Big no to Vrabel. And Belichick is too old.
BB has a year to analyze the league, what went wrong at the end for him and come up with adjustments to how he wants to run a team if interested. That is appealing imv.
Cowden can give a lot of insight on Vrabel. Doubt JM will want to get rid of the GM but the Giants FO has a lot of opinions. I think he will prefer a former HC with success.
That they had buyer's remorse 13 months later is a different debate.
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Its not the Giants job to ensure a GM/HC get to draft their QB
Just like its not the Giants job to ensure Daniel Jones gets his weapons and protection in order to evaluate him
The job is to win football games. Nothing more, nothing less
Think of it like baseball. The batter gets 3 strikes. If you fail to swing at 3 strikes. You are out. You are not promised a pitch that you want to swing at.
Schoen/Daboll have failed to swing. They are only team to not draft a QB during their time here. 3 strikes. You are out.
. . . except the Giants haven't had strikes pitched at them. It's not smart to swing at everything thrown your way - sometimes you have to just settle for the walk and hope for something better next at-bat.
They have had 3 years and 25 draft picks. They could have signed Wilson. Traded for Fields. Drafted Purdy in rd 7 . They could have tagged Daniel Jones in 2022 and let him go this and signed Cousins.
There were lots of possibilities
They better not become the next Jones with every year becoming oh we Cant evaluate them until they get their QB while failing to ever get one.
I think Daboll has to have a season where they're winning games in spite of the QB. That's the only thing that would make me confident about him going forward. Asshats said he loved Nabers so go prove he wasn't picked for the next regime.
I want to take everyone back about 16 months. The Giants were the best coached team in the NFL. They overperformed and won a playoff game starting guys off the street and vet min players. This is NOT my opinion - this is fact, and Dab’s was named Coach of the Year. Almost every week, the Giants had a coaching and schematic advantage - something we hadn’t seen since Coughlin. It was a complete 180 in culture from Judge. It was beautiful
Then last year, there is an awful start out of the gate. They end up stringing together wins, finish 6-11 including ending the season on a high note by beating the piss out of Philly. 6 wins is not acceptable, but considering the QB situation and the way they started - I thought Daboll really did well down the stretch.
So, this team has not yet been bad enough to draft a QB, and somehow that is being used against Daboll and Schoen - who I think have done a very good job considering where things were when they stepped in.
And btw, players LOVE Daboll. Read the anonymous surveys. People don’t put enough weight in the fact that every time you change coaches, there is a reset of the roster - and some of the pieces that you invested capital in become devalued. You cannot keep doing this - they need stability and I believe they have that as long as the media/fanbase does not bully Mara into firing what I believe (and the league believes) is a very good head coach - something that they have not had in nearly a decade.
Judge, McAdoo, Shurmur. Think about those names. Be happy we have Daboll.
If Jones fails, and the team struggles again this season, whose fault is that? If Schoen and Daboll weren't able to see what the majority of Giants fans have seen all along, that Jones ain't it, then why do they deserve to continue to be here?
If Jones fails, and the team struggles again this season, whose fault is that? If Schoen and Daboll weren't able to see what the majority of Giants fans have seen all along, that Jones ain't it, then why do they deserve to continue to be here?
What was your plan last off-season instead of resigning Jones? Curious to hear it. Sure they could’ve franchise tagged and drafted Levis, or maybe signed Baker instead - but those are “hindsight” moves. Not sure the team is much better off with either option anyway..
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isn't "their own QB." When you hand a guy the contract they did, and pass on 3 quarterbacks in the top 12 of the draft, you have made a pretty strong declaration that this is your guy.
If Jones fails, and the team struggles again this season, whose fault is that? If Schoen and Daboll weren't able to see what the majority of Giants fans have seen all along, that Jones ain't it, then why do they deserve to continue to be here?
What was your plan last off-season instead of resigning Jones? Curious to hear it. Sure they could’ve franchise tagged and drafted Levis, or maybe signed Baker instead - but those are “hindsight” moves. Not sure the team is much better off with either option anyway..
The other issue is they had no cap space to sign Jones to franchise and make big moves like Okereke, We gambled Daniel would progress and lost big time. It's not an indictment on Daboll to me that Jones sucks and he can't make him not suck.
If 2024 resembles 2022, they're back. If it's another shitshow, all bets are off. Schoen looks like a really green decision maker, and NYG continues to not scout or self-scout well enough imv.
If we just offered Daniel what he's worth - 1 year, $10 M - and proceeded from there we'd be in much better. If he declined, then sign one of the 40 or 50 guys in the league who can give you that level of production. Meanwhile, take some swings in the mid rounds to try to find a Dak, Wilson, Cousins.
And just communicate it - right now we are making small investments in guys with potential who we are going to develop. We will make a larger investment in either draft picks or money if and when we are confident in the player.
I think a lot of the fan bases in NY have more patience than we get credit for. Especially if there is honesty and the actions match the words. The Coddle Daniel approach is only going to make people mad. We can see through all this stuff.
Whether they're entitled to draft a QB? No.
If 2024 resembles 2022, they're back. If it's another shitshow, all bets are off. Schoen looks like a really green decision maker, and NYG continues to not scout or self-scout well enough imv.
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offensive side of the ball. Don’t think that’s the direction Shoen would go or should go.
^ This and the roster that he built when he left is in shambles. I know he's a legend and all but I'm not convinced he would turn us around.
Left a mess over there and doubled down on a lot of bad decisions.
If 2024 resembles 2022, they're back. If it's another shitshow, all bets are off. Schoen looks like a really green decision maker, and NYG continues to not scout or self-scout well enough imv.
s/b recover from a season like 2023.
If 2024 resembles 2022, they're back. If it's another shitshow, all bets are off. Schoen looks like a really green decision maker, and NYG continues to not scout or self-scout well enough imv.
Daboll and Shoen are definitely going through a learning curve. Last year’s handling of the OL puts that front and center. No confidence in the supposed swing tackle on the roster which was Peart. Played Ezeudu out of position as a LT. Replaced Glowinski with McKethan at RG. The hiring of Bobby Johnson in the 1st place. And constant shuffling of the OL during training camp was ridiculous.
You win or eventually you’re gone.
One good year, one awful one in the books for this duo.
If 2024 is truly awful…one or both may get the boot. I’m talking 5 wins or less awful. In that case I’d bet on a Daboll ouster with Schoen getting another shot with a new coach and QB.
If 2024 is average… 7-9 wins, then I think they get a pass and another crack with a new QB.
If expectations are exceeded…10 wns or more…then they’re golden for a few years and have free rein on QB decisions.
6 wins and I think Mara stays the course, but I wouldn’t be comfortable if I was in their shoes.
Completely the wrong tone… I was shocked. I know these aren’t the days of Parcells and Coughlin where you could much more and push guys. But come on, it’s still football. So with limited OTAs now, even more of a reason to try to get the line to gel and build cohesion ASAP. That was malpractice and truly set the team up for failure.
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isn't "their own QB." When you hand a guy the contract they did, and pass on 3 quarterbacks in the top 12 of the draft, you have made a pretty strong declaration that this is your guy.
If Jones fails, and the team struggles again this season, whose fault is that? If Schoen and Daboll weren't able to see what the majority of Giants fans have seen all along, that Jones ain't it, then why do they deserve to continue to be here?
What was your plan last off-season instead of resigning Jones? Curious to hear it. Sure they could’ve franchise tagged and drafted Levis, or maybe signed Baker instead - but those are “hindsight” moves. Not sure the team is much better off with either option anyway..
Franchising Jones was not a hindsight move, it was the smart move at the time.
And the team is much better off if they did that. You wouldn't want the 47 million in cap space this year? Not to mention avoiding a possible 23 or 45 million dead cap next year?
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My rationale for hiring him would be simple: I think this team needs to get back to the fundamentals of blocking, tackling, playing special
teams, managing games properly, and being generally
unpleasant to play against in December and January in the northeast.
I'm confident Belichick would do those things, as I would be if the job went to Vrabel, Tomlin, Harbaugh, these types. I'm not confident in that happening right now with Daboll having to basically turn over the entire coaching staff and the quarterback situation being so mismanaged these three years.
Vegas has the Giants at 6.5 wins and -550 to miss the playoffs. It feels like this is going on the wrong direction. That's not pessimism; it's just observation and deduction.
Belichick would be a steady hand to get things going in the right direction, and focusing on what's going to win games in December and January.
I agree Terps. We’ll see how this season plays out, but another poor finish (especially if we are seeing player tantrums and signs Daboll’s lost the team) would signal it’s time for a change. Belichick would definitely help restore some order to the team.
Wake up, BB is not going to coach the Giants.
How were the QB's they passed on?
I would probably say yes - can them if they suck while any of the QB's they passed on were real good whileJones sucks while the OL still is awful.
I want to take everyone back about 16 months. The Giants were the best coached team in the NFL. They overperformed and won a playoff game starting guys off the street and vet min players. This is NOT my opinion - this is fact, and Dab’s was named Coach of the Year. Almost every week, the Giants had a coaching and schematic advantage - something we hadn’t seen since Coughlin. It was a complete 180 in culture from Judge. It was beautiful
Then last year, there is an awful start out of the gate. They end up stringing together wins, finish 6-11 including ending the season on a high note by beating the piss out of Philly. 6 wins is not acceptable, but considering the QB situation and the way they started - I thought Daboll really did well down the stretch.
So, this team has not yet been bad enough to draft a QB, and somehow that is being used against Daboll and Schoen - who I think have done a very good job considering where things were when they stepped in.
And btw, players LOVE Daboll. Read the anonymous surveys. People don’t put enough weight in the fact that every time you change coaches, there is a reset of the roster - and some of the pieces that you invested capital in become devalued. You cannot keep doing this - they need stability and I believe they have that as long as the media/fanbase does not bully Mara into firing what I believe (and the league believes) is a very good head coach - something that they have not had in nearly a decade.
Judge, McAdoo, Shurmur. Think about those names. Be happy we have Daboll.
I would prefer you stop making excuses if it were to come to pass 2 straight miserable years then it would look like a 3rd is coming.
What you aren't taking into account is if they suck this upcoming year -- if they have no prospoects for a QB - or gonna pay soem obscene amount for a mediocre QB- then you have ot evaluate "where are they going" rather than do what you want to do is to celebrate a 1 year anomaly.
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In comment 16500673 Mike in NJ said:
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isn't "their own QB." When you hand a guy the contract they did, and pass on 3 quarterbacks in the top 12 of the draft, you have made a pretty strong declaration that this is your guy.
If Jones fails, and the team struggles again this season, whose fault is that? If Schoen and Daboll weren't able to see what the majority of Giants fans have seen all along, that Jones ain't it, then why do they deserve to continue to be here?
What was your plan last off-season instead of resigning Jones? Curious to hear it. Sure they could’ve franchise tagged and drafted Levis, or maybe signed Baker instead - but those are “hindsight” moves. Not sure the team is much better off with either option anyway..
Franchising Jones was not a hindsight move, it was the smart move at the time.
And the team is much better off if they did that. You wouldn't want the 47 million in cap space this year? Not to mention avoiding a possible 23 or 45 million dead cap next year?
The optimal move wasn't to franchise Jones. The optimal was to let him test free agency as Tampa did with Mayfield.