Flotts cover skills but we can't count out McCloud.
I like McCloud more than the other options and wouldn’t be surprised if he starts.
Flott’s #2 for me but he’s so inconsistent and the tackling on a team without good edge-setters is an issue. But at his age there is still real upside.
Good point on his age. He wont turn 23 until the end of pre-season.
Regarding Robinson, keep in mind that he was not a Joe Schoen pick.
the Giants (and Sy'56) really are not happy with the slot corner position. It is interesting in the post-draft presser, Schoen immediately said Phillips was a slot CB, but then slightly backtracked by saying he had "inside/outside flexibility"). They want an upgrade over Flott and Holmes as slot corner. Flott can still be depth inside and compete outside. Holmes is probably more insurance, but I would not write him off because Bowen may like his physicality.
Keep in mind that our defensive coverages are going to be really different this year. Players who looked good under Wink may not look good now and visa versa.
it appears that he envisions Phillips and Flott as starters, one in the slot and one outside. He seems to believe that both are capable of playing either role.
the Giants (and Sy'56) really are not happy with the slot corner position. It is interesting in the post-draft presser, Schoen immediately said Phillips was a slot CB, but then slightly backtracked by saying he had "inside/outside flexibility"). They want an upgrade over Flott and Holmes as slot corner. Flott can still be depth inside and compete outside. Holmes is probably more insurance, but I would not write him off because Bowen may like his physicality.
Keep in mind that our defensive coverages are going to be really different this year. Players who looked good under Wink may not look good now and visa versa.
Agree with you about them not being happy at slot. But they have a lot of competition now for both inside and outside. Never(for some reason) realized that Flott was tall - always thought he was 5'9". He has the speed and range to be outside CB.
I really do not know Bowen's style of D except that the Titans were solid on D and good against the run.
I have kinda been wondering how that unit will shake out too and I agree with an above poster that a cheap vet might happen too and Witherspoon is a good choice as would Nelson. If you include McCloud who was a bit of a hybrid early in the year las year we took 6. I am including McCloud again and assuming 6 will make it.
Forgetting any FAs for a moment..
Banks
Phillips
McCloud
Flott
Hawkins
Holmes
Would be the most likely 6 imo. A FA likely pushes Holmes off I would guess.
Outside opposite Banks would be McCloud or Flott I think. Or Phillips if he impresses enough early but it seems like slot for him to start.
If he does what he did in Tennessee (unknown because of Vrabel's influence), we will run a ton of nickel and dime. We'll be in two high rather than single high.
He wants to find four guys who can really get after the QB and then play it safer in coverage (this is what most of the NFL does now, hence why Wink was such an outlier). Patrick Graham fits into that mold. He was out of favor here not so much because of his defense a a whole, but his defenses seemed to collapse at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters (remember all of those 2-minute drives?).
A big, big part of this is getting the DBs to tackle better. We can't have corners and safeties in the wrong spot and missing tackles.
That was his original position with the others in competition for the outside.
Exactly.
Robinson is still on this roster. They haven't cut him. He was drafted to be the slot but circumstances forced them to move him outside where he won the starting job in 2022. He could play either spot. One of the big variables here.
They basically have four guys who have played slot...Phillips, Flott, Holmes, Robinson. They also signed Alex Johnson as a UDFA.
this unit should be able to be okay. Add in a little better pass rush if the duo of Burns/Thibs does what they are supposed to do, and the overall D will hold their own versus the pass.
It feels like day 2 wasn't only about positional needs
That was his original position with the others in competition for the outside.
Exactly.
Robinson is still on this roster. They haven't cut him. He was drafted to be the slot but circumstances forced them to move him outside where he won the starting job in 2022. He could play either spot. One of the big variables here.
They basically have four guys who have played slot...Phillips, Flott, Holmes, Robinson. They also signed Alex Johnson as a UDFA.
I bet Robinson could have been activated last season. We didn't need him and it made no sense to free up a roster spot.
Hawkins was as advertised: a project for teams interested in press corners with above-average athletic traits. He may bust or may be the other outside starter. The athletic ability is there.
I expect at least one will be the camp story like Banks was last season.
If he does what he did in Tennessee (unknown because of Vrabel's influence), we will run a ton of nickel and dime. We'll be in two high rather than single high.
He wants to find four guys who can really get after the QB and then play it safer in coverage (this is what most of the NFL does now, hence why Wink was such an outlier). Patrick Graham fits into that mold. He was out of favor here not so much because of his defense a a whole, but his defenses seemed to collapse at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters (remember all of those 2-minute drives?).
A big, big part of this is getting the DBs to tackle better. We can't have corners and safeties in the wrong spot and missing tackles.
Thanks Eric. Yes, there is a question on how much of that D was Vrabel's - I suspect a lot. But Bowen may well have picked up a lot of it and will likely add a wrinkle of his own.
I think they have a lot of good players on the D side of the ball. Burns will be huge oppo Thibs(or is it the other way around?)
On the line I liked what I saw of Riley and since this defense will be different, perhaps they will get more out of Nacho, Riley and Davidson. Don't know what to expect from Jordon Phillips.
RE: It feels like day 2 wasn't only about positional needs
Tennessee reporters have said Jim Schwartz had a big influence on the defense when he was a consultant with the wide-9. If he keeps that, I suspect Burns, KT, Azeez, and Simmons are going to love that. Their initial burst is going to be a problem for a lot of tackles from a wide-9 (wide 9 is exactly what is sounds like... the outside rushers are lined up even further outside of the tackle).
Tennessee reporters have said Jim Schwartz had a big influence on the defense when he was a consultant with the wide-9. If he keeps that, I suspect Burns, KT, Azeez, and Simmons are going to love that. Their initial burst is going to be a problem for a lot of tackles from a wide-9 (wide 9 is exactly what is sounds like... the outside rushers are lined up even further outside of the tackle).
First time I saw wide 9 I think was the Eagles. It may make Simmons deadly.
Well Schwartz would be a very god guy to learn from (and that is an understatement!)
Of mccloud, hawkins, flott or a FA outside. Phillips, flott or holmes in the slot. I really hated darnay in wink’s defense but if we play more zone with Bowen he may have a slight resurgence.
Duggan said today that Ahkello Witherspoon could be a FA corner in the Giants's price range.
he got credit for mentoring LAR's young DB room last year.
this DB room is very young, especially at CB. Ahkello has mostly played for winning teams (SF, PIT, LAR). played almost every snap last year. Ahkello Witherspoon's First Season In LA, Future In Medicine, Musical Talents & More | Rams Revealed - ( New Window )
And Gilmore, Howard and Nelson...
Seems clear that any would be an upgrade, but how much of one and and what cost. Not just the money but the message it sends. St some point you have to stick with what you have.
The Titans defense was not a pressure defense.
They played a lot of zone coverage.
They would switch up coverages to attempt to confuse the QB.
They played the middle of the field exceptionally well limiting crossing patterns, seams, and passes between the hashes.
There were a couple of concerns that I noticed.
Their corners were not sticky. They played off coverage where I believe that they gave away too much cushion.
While they were good against the run it came at a price they were not good against the short passing games, especially in the flats.
The Titans were not a blitz-heavy team and they relied on stunts and overloads to free up rushers. This appeared to be a hit-or-miss proposition. When pressure came it generally came from the A-B gaps. The edge rushers were used for containment.
This does not seem to fit the Giants' skill sets.
I hope the Giants' version of this defense is more aggressive than what we saw at Tennessee.
There is a lot of young competition, between Flott, Hawkins, and Phillips. I
I actually think McCloud is the best player of them all today. He’s always been solid whenever his name is called. There’s a reason they were willing to pay the $3M tender for him.
Flott has had every chance to step up, but hasn’t yet. I know he’s young, obviously had the movement skills and ball skills, but there are so many mental errors. They clearly do not trust him yet. But year 3 - maybe he takes a leap.
Then Hawkins, as Eric pointed out he was great in camp and won a starting job as a 6th round rookie, but has been written off by the fan base …has elite size for the position, very good movement skills, but struggled in the regular season. Especially with tackling. I think it’s a bit unfair to give up on him so soon as he was a 6th rounder forced into action right out of the gate..CB is a tough position to play as a rookie. He’s absolutely the dark horse and has the most potential.
I love a good underdog story but I think the over arching theme among all the DB is the athleticism/speed of the group that has been lacking in year past.
It's going to be one heck of a battle for the starting role and likely won by the CB who does the most work in the film room connecting the mental with the physical.
Tennessee reporters have said Jim Schwartz had a big influence on the defense when he was a consultant with the wide-9. If he keeps that, I suspect Burns, KT, Azeez, and Simmons are going to love that. Their initial burst is going to be a problem for a lot of tackles from a wide-9 (wide 9 is exactly what is sounds like... the outside rushers are lined up even further outside of the tackle).
This also may explain why all of our DT's are bigger guys that can 2-gap.
That are question marks. I think whomever picks up the playbook the best will get the shot. My money is on McCloud to at least start the year at cb2 with someone displacing him later.
Don't count out Andru Phillips based on size or speed
D J Reed on Jets has been very successful, and Phillips has superior size and speed. Someone on the Giants staff really valued some aspect of APs game.
RE: Don't count out Andru Phillips based on size or speed
D J Reed on Jets has been very successful, and Phillips has superior size and speed. Someone on the Giants staff really valued some aspect of APs game.
I'm not considering Phillips as a starter on the outside because he is best suited inside and Flott sucks there and Holmes is too grabby
and shows their game is rising to the level of consistent starter.
I remember a time when 2nd year NYG players, even 2nd year players coming off typical rookie year struggles, came in for year 2 and solidified a position and themselves as NFL starting quality. Can we see that again here just one time....Seems like the only time a 2nd year NYG player kicks ass he was already kicking ass as a rookie.
Player development! Please.
Hawkins was good enough to steal it out of camp as a
If they dont start because our young guys step up, great. But we are way too thin. We are one injury away from the defense turning into a dumpster fire.
I think Flott should move to the outside and stay there. When he came out, his biggest strength was his back pedal and he is not a good tackler, so outside is where he belongs.
Overall I think this scheme will have a lot more zone, and I think Bowen will tread DBs with a agnostic approach and will be rotating players this year into roles that fit their scheme.
Alex Johnson the UDFA that is suppose to sign here is my dark horse to make the 53. His instincts and closing speed are impressive, he seems like the kind of player that will be a Bowen guy. Playing the role of a slot zone corner.
I am also really curious on how Bowen deploys Isiah Simmons.
He's got good coverage skills. Size/tackling less of a liability on the outside. Phillips starts in the slot, or maybe Holmes to start with, replaced later by Phillips.
Banks, McCloud, Hawkins, Phillips, and Flott. Maybe Robinson can return and that would make 6. We will be playing less dime packages with Bowen.
Sorry Disagree, What if Banks or McCloud get hurt, We will be toast. Need another guy who has real NFL experience added to the group.
Also you should know, per an article in the Athletic:
"The Titans used their dime personnel (six defensive backs) on 24.2 percent of their snaps during Bowen’s time as DC, which was the second-highest rate in the league."
Quote:
Flotts cover skills but we can't count out McCloud.
I like McCloud more than the other options and wouldn’t be surprised if he starts.
Flott’s #2 for me but he’s so inconsistent and the tackling on a team without good edge-setters is an issue. But at his age there is still real upside.
Good point on his age. He wont turn 23 until the end of pre-season.
Regarding Robinson, keep in mind that he was not a Joe Schoen pick.
Keep in mind that our defensive coverages are going to be really different this year. Players who looked good under Wink may not look good now and visa versa.
He is, but Bowen expects his CB’s to tackle, not Flott’s strong suit. I know he’ll have growing pains, but I think CB2 is Phillips’ job to lose.
Keep in mind that our defensive coverages are going to be really different this year. Players who looked good under Wink may not look good now and visa versa.
Agree with you about them not being happy at slot. But they have a lot of competition now for both inside and outside. Never(for some reason) realized that Flott was tall - always thought he was 5'9". He has the speed and range to be outside CB.
I really do not know Bowen's style of D except that the Titans were solid on D and good against the run.
Forgetting any FAs for a moment..
Banks
Phillips
McCloud
Flott
Hawkins
Holmes
Would be the most likely 6 imo. A FA likely pushes Holmes off I would guess.
Outside opposite Banks would be McCloud or Flott I think. Or Phillips if he impresses enough early but it seems like slot for him to start.
He wants to find four guys who can really get after the QB and then play it safer in coverage (this is what most of the NFL does now, hence why Wink was such an outlier). Patrick Graham fits into that mold. He was out of favor here not so much because of his defense a a whole, but his defenses seemed to collapse at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters (remember all of those 2-minute drives?).
A big, big part of this is getting the DBs to tackle better. We can't have corners and safeties in the wrong spot and missing tackles.
Exactly.
Robinson is still on this roster. They haven't cut him. He was drafted to be the slot but circumstances forced them to move him outside where he won the starting job in 2022. He could play either spot. One of the big variables here.
They basically have four guys who have played slot...Phillips, Flott, Holmes, Robinson. They also signed Alex Johnson as a UDFA.
That's where I am right now... however, McCloud seems to really want it too.
We may be a corner short still. However, this could still work itself out on its own with what we have.
Quote:
That was his original position with the others in competition for the outside.
Exactly.
Robinson is still on this roster. They haven't cut him. He was drafted to be the slot but circumstances forced them to move him outside where he won the starting job in 2022. He could play either spot. One of the big variables here.
They basically have four guys who have played slot...Phillips, Flott, Holmes, Robinson. They also signed Alex Johnson as a UDFA.
I bet Robinson could have been activated last season. We didn't need him and it made no sense to free up a roster spot.
Hawkins was as advertised: a project for teams interested in press corners with above-average athletic traits. He may bust or may be the other outside starter. The athletic ability is there.
I expect at least one will be the camp story like Banks was last season.
He wants to find four guys who can really get after the QB and then play it safer in coverage (this is what most of the NFL does now, hence why Wink was such an outlier). Patrick Graham fits into that mold. He was out of favor here not so much because of his defense a a whole, but his defenses seemed to collapse at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters (remember all of those 2-minute drives?).
A big, big part of this is getting the DBs to tackle better. We can't have corners and safeties in the wrong spot and missing tackles.
Thanks Eric. Yes, there is a question on how much of that D was Vrabel's - I suspect a lot. But Bowen may well have picked up a lot of it and will likely add a wrinkle of his own.
I think they have a lot of good players on the D side of the ball. Burns will be huge oppo Thibs(or is it the other way around?)
On the line I liked what I saw of Riley and since this defense will be different, perhaps they will get more out of Nacho, Riley and Davidson. Don't know what to expect from Jordon Phillips.
First time I saw wide 9 I think was the Eagles. It may make Simmons deadly.
Well Schwartz would be a very god guy to learn from (and that is an understatement!)
Quote:
Phillips in the slot.
That's where I am right now... however, McCloud seems to really want it too.
We may be a corner short still. However, this could still work itself out on its own with what we have.
I agree they want Phillips in the slot
I think it's wide open for other outside CB
IMO -
Hawkins has the most complete skill set but has shown the least
Flott has shown the best coverage skills but tackling is an issue and needs to be more consistent
McCloud has shown to be the most consistent but has the most limitations
Gotta be rooting for Phillips as Holmes is always penalty waiting to happen
Andru Phillips CB
Cordale Flott CB
Deonte Banks CB
Tre Hawkins III CB
Gervarrius Owens S
Dane Belton S
Tyler Nubin S
He remains unsigned, would likely be more reasonably priced now, and is a known quantity. Not sure what he would command at this point salary wise.
Good, not great player, but better than all of their starters aside for Banks.
He remains unsigned, would likely be more reasonably priced now, and is a known quantity. Not sure what he would command at this point salary wise.
Good, not great player, but better than all of their starters aside for Banks.
Always was a huge fan of Adoree Jackson but I'm afraid time has taken its toll on him. I'm assuming the Giants do not want him on the roster in 2024.
Quote:
.
Duggan said today that Ahkello Witherspoon could be a FA corner in the Giants's price range.
he got credit for mentoring LAR's young DB room last year.
this DB room is very young, especially at CB. Ahkello has mostly played for winning teams (SF, PIT, LAR). played almost every snap last year.
Ahkello Witherspoon's First Season In LA, Future In Medicine, Musical Talents & More | Rams Revealed - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16502138 Ira said:
Quote:
.
Duggan said today that Ahkello Witherspoon could be a FA corner in the Giants's price range.
he got credit for mentoring LAR's young DB room last year.
this DB room is very young, especially at CB. Ahkello has mostly played for winning teams (SF, PIT, LAR). played almost every snap last year. Ahkello Witherspoon's First Season In LA, Future In Medicine, Musical Talents & More | Rams Revealed - ( New Window )
And Gilmore, Howard and Nelson...
Seems clear that any would be an upgrade, but how much of one and and what cost. Not just the money but the message it sends. St some point you have to stick with what you have.
nelson and witherspoon could each fit. both played well for playoff teams last year.
both should cost somwhere around what tredavious white and darious williams got choosing LAR > NYG.
They played a lot of zone coverage.
They would switch up coverages to attempt to confuse the QB.
They played the middle of the field exceptionally well limiting crossing patterns, seams, and passes between the hashes.
There were a couple of concerns that I noticed.
Their corners were not sticky. They played off coverage where I believe that they gave away too much cushion.
While they were good against the run it came at a price they were not good against the short passing games, especially in the flats.
The Titans were not a blitz-heavy team and they relied on stunts and overloads to free up rushers. This appeared to be a hit-or-miss proposition. When pressure came it generally came from the A-B gaps. The edge rushers were used for containment.
This does not seem to fit the Giants' skill sets.
I hope the Giants' version of this defense is more aggressive than what we saw at Tennessee.
I do not like bend but do not break defenses.
I actually think McCloud is the best player of them all today. He’s always been solid whenever his name is called. There’s a reason they were willing to pay the $3M tender for him.
Flott has had every chance to step up, but hasn’t yet. I know he’s young, obviously had the movement skills and ball skills, but there are so many mental errors. They clearly do not trust him yet. But year 3 - maybe he takes a leap.
Then Hawkins, as Eric pointed out he was great in camp and won a starting job as a 6th round rookie, but has been written off by the fan base …has elite size for the position, very good movement skills, but struggled in the regular season. Especially with tackling. I think it’s a bit unfair to give up on him so soon as he was a 6th rounder forced into action right out of the gate..CB is a tough position to play as a rookie. He’s absolutely the dark horse and has the most potential.
There are good vet corners just floating around out there. As May becomes June those guys start to twitch and deals can be had.
It's going to be one heck of a battle for the starting role and likely won by the CB who does the most work in the film room connecting the mental with the physical.
Hawkings gets “lost” too often to be reliable. Maybe he takes a jump in year 2.
Either way there are enough camp bodies that one of them will step up.
I'm not considering Phillips as a starter on the outside because he is best suited inside and Flott sucks there and Holmes is too grabby
IMO the pessimism on Hawkins is because we feel duped by the misplaced optimism that he was going to start game 1 and never look back.
I will always think of that optimism as a cautionary tale not to get too excited by reports at camp
I remember a time when 2nd year NYG players, even 2nd year players coming off typical rookie year struggles, came in for year 2 and solidified a position and themselves as NFL starting quality. Can we see that again here just one time....Seems like the only time a 2nd year NYG player kicks ass he was already kicking ass as a rookie.
Player development! Please.
I think Flott should move to the outside and stay there. When he came out, his biggest strength was his back pedal and he is not a good tackler, so outside is where he belongs.
Overall I think this scheme will have a lot more zone, and I think Bowen will tread DBs with a agnostic approach and will be rotating players this year into roles that fit their scheme.
Alex Johnson the UDFA that is suppose to sign here is my dark horse to make the 53. His instincts and closing speed are impressive, he seems like the kind of player that will be a Bowen guy. Playing the role of a slot zone corner.
I am also really curious on how Bowen deploys Isiah Simmons.
He may not hold the position as younger guys like Hawkins or Phillips progress.
Sorry Disagree, What if Banks or McCloud get hurt, We will be toast. Need another guy who has real NFL experience added to the group.
Also you should know, per an article in the Athletic:
"The Titans used their dime personnel (six defensive backs) on 24.2 percent of their snaps during Bowen’s time as DC, which was the second-highest rate in the league."
hit the nail right on its head!
Giants signed cornerback David Long Jr - ( New Window )