The Giants have had so many miserable seasons recently where it's easy to assume the next regime is right around the corner. Schoen is entering year three as is Poles in Chicago and Adofo-Mensah in Minnesota. Ziegler has already been fired in Las Vegas.
Here are the records for Chicago and Minnesota through two seasons:
--Bears: 10-24 (first overall pick in 2023 and traded down which led to Caleb Williams)
--Vikings: 20-14 (0-1 in the playoffs)
--Giants: 15-18-1 (1-1 in the playoffs)
Two names that are often brought up here to replace Daboll in the last two years:
--Belichick: 12-22
--Vrabel: 13-21
I'm not trying to compare Daboll to Belichick, but I do think we need to stop talking in terms of always blowing out a regime and starting over. I'm not sure yet if Daboll is a good coach, I'm not sure if he's a bad coach. I think he's good, but it's still too soon to know.
Schoen hasn't had an easy job. He walked into a far tougher situation and he owns the Jones contract. I don't think it's a fireable offense though. GMs often swing and miss at QB, even the best do. NYG tends to hold onto mistakes longer, but I wonder if that is less Schoen and more of an organizational philosophy.
If NYG owned the first pick in the draft like Poles did in 2023, Jones isn't here right now.
This was the first real opportunity Schoen passed on QB and we'll see what follows. But, Schoen is very securely in his seat imo.
A 4-13 season and all bets are off obviously, but as Joey said in another thread - a lot of talent has been brought into this front office. I don't think Mara signs off on that just to blow it up three years later. Brandon Brown is viewed very positively around the NFL as well and likely will get a GM job here.
I wanted QB at six, but I'm also going to assume this isn't the incompetence of Gettleman and his regime carrying over. We'll see. Either way, I think Schoen and Daboll are here for awhile (especially Schoen).
6 or less wins, fans booing the team off the field, and Eric's daughter making more clownshow photos and they will be
6 or less wins, fans booing the team off the field, and Eric's daughter making more clownshow photos and they will be
Yes. This is the key. Do they embarrass themselves? Schoen doesn't strike me as someone who will embarrass the franchise though.
Daboll is a hot head, so I'd guess he's at more risk.
Another stinker this year, and they are......
having said that, I don't think there's a doubt that we are in for another "stinker"....
at THAT point, they WILL be on the hot seat.
Not that it's right for them to be on the hot seat if there is another stinker. All elements down to the scouts have been changed, some 3 and 4 times over. That kind of failure points to a "losing culture" and has little to do with the personnel running the team.
But they have to be competitive this season and make playoffs at least once in next two years. I don’t think they get kept if say they go 7-10 this year and even 8-9 next year. Some fans will try and make excuses but when you shop for the groceries over multiple seasons and resign prior GM picks, you lose excuses and context, absent anomalous events which do not impact other teams just as well (ie, injury excuses).
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
I don't know that we know that. Schoen definitely chose Jones. Daboll? Who knows.
If you think the OL will be intact, they shouldn't look as bad early on but we need to see it first. I am going on the belief that even if the Giants go 7-10 or so, they won't look so out of sorts and to me that would be barely enough to stay the course, but I looking for closer to 8-10 wins. Yes I am probably crazy. I can't go into the season so negative and I do see a roster with elite talent in more places than what we saw in 22. I see a better roster on paper even sans Barkley but again, need to see it. I aint betting on shit I can tell you that.
And if they're so smart why is their year 3 outlook so bleak?
I wouldn't be as confident in that had they drafted McCarthy. I'm not trying to re-open that debate, but only that, had they drafted him, knowing that Maye was their target, that move could be seen as a reach in order to try and save their jobs by resetting the clock. We'll never know.
I wouldn't be as confident in that had they drafted McCarthy. I'm not trying to re-open that debate, but only that, had they drafted him, knowing that Maye was their target, that move could be seen as a reach in order to try and save their jobs by resetting the clock. We'll never know.
That said, a Judgian clown show changes thing, but I suspect they're smart enough to avoid that.
I honestly don’t know what he’d do if we have a predictably poor season this fall. I do think the Giants are delusional or oblivious to how ugly this season could become early with this QB room. But it is what it is.
Let the season play out. If the Giants finish last in the division are they really safe? That would be a step backwards. If they are picking top 6 again are they safe? Who knows. What we know is Mara wanted Brian Flores and Schoen likely convinced him to pivot to Daboll..It worked out big when we won a playoff game…but even with that Mara stated his infamous “Bono to Bozo” comment. Then a disastrous year with infighting and our GM having to listen in on the headset to see if the coaches were behaving.
Now there is renewed expectations with Jones supposedly healthy and new weapons and improved line. If it goes south again…anything can happen.
Like knows like and a true loser knows one when he sees one.
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
Even so, most GMs get another swing.
The epitome of "instant gratification".
Here's a tidbit boys and girls. If Uncle John is serious about having stability and building a sustainable winning culture, then these guys AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE, regardless of the record over the next 2 years.
If John listens to impatient fans and blows things up again this soon, then this organization will NEVER win again. Book it!
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
Even so, most GMs get another swing.
In my opinion they've taken their swing. They've given us a couple reasons not to trust them to enough to give them another swing.
Hey, you're the guy cheerleading for the QB who's never accomplished much of anything at any level, going back to high school.
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He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
I don't know that we know that. Schoen definitely chose Jones. Daboll? Who knows.
Greg - I have to believe Schoen gave a lot of input by Daboll in riding with Jones and giving the new contract. There is no evidence even circumstantial to suggest otherwise, so we go with the contract decision as clear evidence even if it was short term hedge for few years, it’s an investment that if no dividends portends a reset for all.
They can’t help themselves.
Legends in their own minds,
If only the Giants would have done what I wanted years ago and yesterday we would not be in this mess.
“I KNOW i am right, that means the bad men intent on ruining the Giants must be stupid or are being forced to do stupid things by a manipulative owner intent on self destruction”
Excuse me if I find this exceptionally entertaining.
2--- If Daboll loses the locker-room or the team is atrocious especially if supposed QB Whisperer has been all-in on Jones while other QB’s that were passed at least 1 was good in which he didn't want, then why would you have confidence in him then? Then why wouldn’t you fire him?
3--- Why would Schoen be securely in his seat if any of the 3 QB’s he passed hit while he signed Jones to the contract and if Joens and the Giants continue to suck? Before this offseason how has his draft picks and FA pickup been? Did he fix the OL? It’s been worse under his watch, hasn’t it? SO with all the possibilities explained come true then why wouldn’t you fire him?
4--- And who says The giants have a lot of talent brought in? Other non-bias Giants Fans? Two players for sure- but everyone else is questionable to a degree. Let’s not treat our 2nd rd Safety pick like he’s Ronnie Lott. Or the OL as The Redskin Hogs. SY has made a comment that we have a bunch of Maybes” on the OL. And if the Maybes aren’t “good” won’t the Giants Offense probably suck with another year of a failed OL and failed QB while one of the 3 QBs you passed is doing very well? It's another year waste, isn't it?
And just because the OL goes from "Historically bad" to “The Maybes” which turn out to be “not good” then is that supposed to be a feather in JS’s cap because dpesite being bad they improved from Historically bad under his watch?? I can see if he drafted – it takes time– but he picked up FA’s and at least Neal JS should be accountable for that pick too. If the FA's don't produce, then why wouldn’t you fire him if they suck?
We'll find out if, like last year, they're sitting at 2-8 again on November 12.
Does anyone think Daboll comes back if the team goes 2-15 this year, absent the team being decimated by injuries?
I think short of shooting someone named Mara, Schoen can survive anything that happens this year. I think he has done exactly what his boss wanted, so just firing Daboll will let Mara walk the line between "heads will roll" and "I hate firing people."
They can’t help themselves.
Legends in their own minds,
If only the Giants would have done what I wanted years ago and yesterday we would not be in this mess.
“I KNOW i am right, that means the bad men intent on ruining the Giants must be stupid or are being forced to do stupid things by a manipulative owner intent on self destruction”
Excuse me if I find this exceptionally entertaining.
You know what I find entertaining? The way people like you get much angrier about other people observing that Daniel Jones is a dogshit quarterback and that the team has lost a ton of games with him than they are about losing all those games.
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
It’s not a narrative!!! It’s a fact!!! This regime turned down his 5th year option and then gave him a rich contract a year later.
You can analyze this history and confluence of events that contributed but facts are facts.
Trading 3-4 picks to move up in a draft? Trading picks and signing a highly coveted edge? That is more a big swing.
Obsessed by one fucking contract. And it's a contract that is literally average for his position on a relative scale. And it came at a time when no real other option was available. You make it sound so easy. Fire everyone. Start over. Good luck.
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
No one seriously suggested letting Jones walk but the only other option wasnt a 4/160 deal with an injury clause
The Giants could have tagged Jones at 1/32 and have had a starting job open for Cousins or Wilson or Fields etc as a result with alot more money in FA available
Nothing to do with Jones. You don't go into a draft obsessed over the incumbent.
Again, why didn't the draft the #1 corner on their board>? Do they love Flott? Why not take Alt? Do they love NEal?
You draft talent. They likely loved 3 fucking QBs but you insist they should love 5. WTF.
The epitome of "instant gratification".
Here's a tidbit boys and girls. If Uncle John is serious about having stability and building a sustainable winning culture, then these guys AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE, regardless of the record over the next 2 years.
If John listens to impatient fans and blows things up again this soon, then this organization will NEVER win again. Book it!
Our hyperbole Champion, ladies and gentlemen!
You understand the difference between "not in the Superbowl every year" and "3rd worst team in the NFL over the last decade," right?
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Like knows like and a true loser knows one when he sees one.
Hey, you're the guy cheerleading for the QB who's never accomplished much of anything at any level, going back to high school.
I’m not cheerleading anybody and like most, I had a QB I wanted in the draft too … but the derision on Jones is over the top and not necessary.
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This and we need to stop making excuses for Schoen. People have short memories. When Gettleman took over he was in the same situation with the cap. Gettleman fixed it in one year and was giving out front loaded contracts because the cap was in such great shape. Schoen also had 2 top 7 picks his first year. He had a top 6 pick this year. This current roster is his and what he chose. Stop with the excuses already.
It is the weirdest thing I have ever seen as a Giants fan. & I’m hard pressed to think of a close second.
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In comment 16503499 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
It’s not a narrative!!! It’s a fact!!! This regime turned down his 5th year option and then gave him a rich contract a year later.
You can analyze this history and confluence of events that contributed but facts are facts.
I have a pet peeve with the phrase “facts are facts,” but I’ll save you from that philosophical debate haha.
We can do revisionist history all day, but turning his 5th year option down was absolutely the right move at the time. And I know this is heresy on these boards, but so was the contract.
The assertion, however, that either of these moves meant anything other than that they were simply the best options available at the time, and were Brian Daboll’s full sale belief in DJ being the franchise QB who will bring us to the promised land, is for certain, “like, your opinion, man.”
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade?
Don't care. This shouldn't factor into decision-making about building the best roster.
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In comment 16503499 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
No one seriously suggested letting Jones walk but the only other option wasnt a 4/160 deal with an injury clause
The Giants could have tagged Jones at 1/32 and have had a starting job open for Cousins or Wilson or Fields etc as a result with alot more money in FA available
This ^.
There was absolutely NEVER a reason to give DJ that abominable contract. It was either Franchise Tag or Transition Tag. Schoen now completely owns whatever happens in 2024. My guess is it will likely be one of the worst years in the Super Bowl era for this franchise.
Imagine having Cousins or Wilson right now with Nabers, Hyatt et al and after adding Burns? We would be a playoff team for God's sake! So while Schoen may not be on the "Mara Hot Seat", he is very much on the "fan base hot seat".
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In comment 16503534 colin said:
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In comment 16503499 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
It’s not a narrative!!! It’s a fact!!! This regime turned down his 5th year option and then gave him a rich contract a year later.
You can analyze this history and confluence of events that contributed but facts are facts.
I have a pet peeve with the phrase “facts are facts,” but I’ll save you from that philosophical debate haha.
We can do revisionist history all day, but turning his 5th year option down was absolutely the right move at the time. And I know this is heresy on these boards, but so was the contract.
The assertion, however, that either of these moves meant anything other than that they were simply the best options available at the time, and were Brian Daboll’s full sale belief in DJ being the franchise QB who will bring us to the promised land, is for certain, “like, your opinion, man.”
Your first statement pretty much eliminates the need to even digest anything further then from you.
On the latter - What a load of nonsense. It’s not opinion. If he’s the best option at the time it’s meaningless in the context then that they’ve committed to him. It’s not arbitrary. He’s their guy right now and their fates ride altogether.
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In comment 16503499 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
No one seriously suggested letting Jones walk but the only other option wasnt a 4/160 deal with an injury clause
The Giants could have tagged Jones at 1/32 and have had a starting job open for Cousins or Wilson or Fields etc as a result with alot more money in FA available
I agree, the injury clause is a rough one. But that’s how negotiations work. Saquon wanted a long term deal with guaranteed money. We weren’t giving him what he wanted so their hand was forced to tag him and negotiate with DJ. Unfortunately, I just don’t believe that if he hit the open market, that DJ, at that time and [/b]conceding the flexibility built into that contract[/b], would have gotten or settled for less.
Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
The Giants sucked last year because the QB and OL position groups were RAVAGED by injury, and they were mediocre to begin with. It sucks when we suck. I agree. But the notion that we missed out on this attainable god send of a QB because Daboll and Schoen fell in love with DJ is just nonsense. You play the cards you’re dealt. Does it suck to sit on an 18? For sure, but what’s the other option?
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Do you realize how few quarterbacks get six years of starting with a resume as paltry as Daniel Jones'? It's extremely rare, and for the life of me I can't fathom why this franchise has chosen to weld itself so tightly to a guy who has shown so little throughout his career. It's beyond bizarre and unexplainable.
It is the weirdest thing I have ever seen as a Giants fan. & I’m hard pressed to think of a close second.
It is beyond belief the strangest fan phenomenon I have ever seen. We have fans on this very thread quite content being a pathetic clown show of a team as long as their quarterback gets another chance to prove their six year erroneous thesis is proven correct! It has become the East Rutherford variant of Stockholm Syndrome!
Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
Daniel Jones has more playoff wins than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins? Inaccurate.
And using playoff wins to judge Jones is rich. 1 in 5 seasons is not something to brag over. Daniel Jones is in the Brown/Kanell/Graham class of Giants QBs: terrible.
And hey in 3 years they paid him and drafted zero QBs. Daniel Jones is their guy.
Jones is a 12 with dealer showing 2.
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Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
Daniel Jones has more playoff wins than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins? Inaccurate.
And using playoff wins to judge Jones is rich. 1 in 5 seasons is not something to brag over. Daniel Jones is in the Brown/Kanell/Graham class of Giants QBs: terrible.
And hey in 3 years they paid him and drafted zero QBs. Daniel Jones is their guy.
Facts are facts though according to Colin. Wilson playing in two Super Bowls and winning one apparently is a whispered rumor. And BTW - they still should have signed Wilson at vet minimum anyway... And all Schoen had to do was assure him that he would be the starter! So you are right Terps - DJ is their guy.
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
SB not coming to terms on a contract led to the disaster of signing DJ to that bloated contract and FT Barkley. Can you imagine where we would be right now if JS had agreed to pay SB a few more million and we were able to FT DJ?
Blake Bortles was very close to a trip to the Super Bowl.
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Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
Daniel Jones has more playoff wins than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins? Inaccurate.
And using playoff wins to judge Jones is rich. 1 in 5 seasons is not something to brag over. Daniel Jones is in the Brown/Kanell/Graham class of Giants QBs: terrible.
And hey in 3 years they paid him and drafted zero QBs. Daniel Jones is their guy.
That's my bad, I misspoke x 2. Forgot I was including Russ in there, and I thought Cousins was still without a playoff win. My point was simply that those QB's would be lateral movements.
I cannot stress this enough, I'm not pro-DJ. I don't like him, never have. I was all in on Maye. But again, this "choice" they made was the only one to be made. I don't see how it could have gone differently.
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In comment 16503683 colin said:
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Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
Daniel Jones has more playoff wins than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins? Inaccurate.
And using playoff wins to judge Jones is rich. 1 in 5 seasons is not something to brag over. Daniel Jones is in the Brown/Kanell/Graham class of Giants QBs: terrible.
And hey in 3 years they paid him and drafted zero QBs. Daniel Jones is their guy.
Facts are facts though according to Colin. Wilson playing in two Super Bowls and winning one apparently is a whispered rumor. And BTW - they still should have signed Wilson at vet minimum anyway... And all Schoen had to do was assure him that he would be the starter! So you are right Terps - DJ is their guy.
Do you, in your heart of hearts, believe that I've been a part of a football message board since 2003, and I'm unaware that Russ won Super Bowls? Or is it possible I made a mistake, and was referencing Zach Wilson? It's the same as if I were to chastise you for saying, "Facts are facts," when you clearly meant "aren't." I know what you meant as I'm sure you did with my comment.
Some of you guys are rabid. I'm not even defending Daniel Jones, just the guys who's hands were forced. Daboll's gonna get run out of town, and the same dudes posting on this thread giving me shit, will be the ones saying, "How could we have let him go?!" when he's holding up a Lombardi with someone else.
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In comment 16503705 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16503683 colin said:
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Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
Daniel Jones has more playoff wins than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins? Inaccurate.
And using playoff wins to judge Jones is rich. 1 in 5 seasons is not something to brag over. Daniel Jones is in the Brown/Kanell/Graham class of Giants QBs: terrible.
And hey in 3 years they paid him and drafted zero QBs. Daniel Jones is their guy.
Facts are facts though according to Colin. Wilson playing in two Super Bowls and winning one apparently is a whispered rumor. And BTW - they still should have signed Wilson at vet minimum anyway... And all Schoen had to do was assure him that he would be the starter! So you are right Terps - DJ is their guy.
Do you, in your heart of hearts, believe that I've been a part of a football message board since 2003, and I'm unaware that Russ won Super Bowls? Or is it possible I made a mistake, and was referencing Zach Wilson? It's the same as if I were to chastise you for saying, "Facts are facts," when you clearly meant "aren't." I know what you meant as I'm sure you did with my comment.
Some of you guys are rabid. I'm not even defending Daniel Jones, just the guys who's hands were forced. Daboll's gonna get run out of town, and the same dudes posting on this thread giving me shit, will be the ones saying, "How could we have let him go?!" when he's holding up a Lombardi with someone else.
Colin - their hands weren't forced! Please stop saying that. That is where you lose all credibility on this topic. There was no reason not to franchise tag DJ last year. None. Please stop defending awarding that abominable contract to DJ because of Barkley - that continues to be a ridiculous excuse!
But be that as it may, this team and its fans deserved an immediate pivot from that mistake this year and are not going to get it until next year - at the earliest. All it took was to sign Russell Wilson to a vet minimum and cut DJ when he becomes healthy. Instead, the DJ Era and its gutter performances will continue unabated. And that really is a shame, given all of the progress that Schoen has made in free agency and the draft in other areas this year. It is truly a master class in franchise malpractice.
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? T
IMO exact opposite to what you're suggesting. After the season theyh ad, do you really believe that if they felt they needed to move on that the fan base would have revolted on them? Not a chance.
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In comment 16503534 colin said:
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In comment 16503499 Sammo85 said:
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In comment 16503495 SirLoinOfBeef said:
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to never have a shot with his QB.
He chose Daniel Jones. We need to stop with the excuses. Tablet throwing or not, he chose Jones.
This is a narrative I just don’t understand. Over who? What was the better option he and Schoen dismissed that offseason?
He inherited Jones and Barkley, then won a playoff game with them. They were drafting in the back 3rd of the first round with a talent deficient roster.
Also, can you imagine the outcries from this fanbase if we walked away from DJ and Barkley after the first playoff win in over a decade? Then expended the immense draft capitol it would have taken to move up and get a QB? How ownership would respond to losing the golden boy after he ostensibly proved himself? There was no choice involved. The choice was who was going to sign the deal that would be easier to walk away from: DJ or Barkley.
No one seriously suggested letting Jones walk but the only other option wasnt a 4/160 deal with an injury clause
The Giants could have tagged Jones at 1/32 and have had a starting job open for Cousins or Wilson or Fields etc as a result with alot more money in FA available
I agree, the injury clause is a rough one. But that’s how negotiations work. Saquon wanted a long term deal with guaranteed money. We weren’t giving him what he wanted so their hand was forced to tag him and negotiate with DJ. Unfortunately, I just don’t believe that if he hit the open market, that DJ, at that time and [/b]conceding the flexibility built into that contract[/b], would have gotten or settled for less.
Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
The Giants sucked last year because the QB and OL position groups were RAVAGED by injury, and they were mediocre to begin with. It sucks when we suck. I agree. But the notion that we missed out on this attainable god send of a QB because Daboll and Schoen fell in love with DJ is just nonsense. You play the cards you’re dealt. Does it suck to sit on an 18? For sure, but what’s the other option?
Everything you say is complete revisionist history. You just said going into 2023 that the OL was "mediocre/
It's clearly apparent why you're sticking up for Jones now. How can anyone suggest the OL as being “mediocre?" Then doesn't that tell you the exact opposite as to what the FO is telling us about Jones? That we ruined?
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In comment 16503640 Greg from LI said:
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Do you realize how few quarterbacks get six years of starting with a resume as paltry as Daniel Jones'? It's extremely rare, and for the life of me I can't fathom why this franchise has chosen to weld itself so tightly to a guy who has shown so little throughout his career. It's beyond bizarre and unexplainable.
It is the weirdest thing I have ever seen as a Giants fan. & I’m hard pressed to think of a close second.
It is beyond belief the strangest fan phenomenon I have ever seen. We have fans on this very thread quite content being a pathetic clown show of a team as long as their quarterback gets another chance to prove their six year erroneous thesis is proven correct! It has become the East Rutherford variant of Stockholm Syndrome!
WHen I first came on here around Dave Gettlelman time - I can recall making some psots how the fans on here have been beaten down to accept mediocrity.
What other areas? Is Dexter Lawrence attributed to JS? Themighty Wr crew priro to the #6 pick in which Wandale has been a healthy solid #2?
You've accepted mediocrity. That's the problem.
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Schoen has done well in other areas except QB. What does that ultimately mean to Mara and the timeline?
What other areas? Is Dexter Lawrence attributed to JS? Themighty Wr crew priro to the #6 pick in which Wandale has been a healthy solid #2?
You've accepted mediocrity. That's the problem.
Giantstock, I haven't accepted anything. I've been on this board talking about how important QB is and how it should be the pick at 6. They've neglected it.
But, I don't think he's operating like he's a lame duck GM. I'd argue that taking QB would have been the move if he wanted to add job security. I think he has time.
An Empty stadium and a HOF head coach indicating he'd consider coaching here and would be tying "unfinished business" is something else to consider.
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In comment 16503903 Sean said:
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Schoen has done well in other areas except QB. What does that ultimately mean to Mara and the timeline?
What other areas? Is Dexter Lawrence attributed to JS? Themighty Wr crew priro to the #6 pick in which Wandale has been a healthy solid #2?
You've accepted mediocrity. That's the problem.
Giantstock, I haven't accepted anything. I've been on this board talking about how important QB is and how it should be the pick at 6. They've neglected it.
But, I don't think he's operating like he's a lame duck GM. I'd argue that taking QB would have been the move if he wanted to add job security. I think he has time.
I agree and I think Mara knows he had a hand in the DJ contract and if DJ fails then it's only fair to let Schdabs show what they can too. I'd say they could compete now with good QB play. I don't think DJ will cut it though.
Yes, we are on the same page. I think these two pre-season free agent periods and both the 2023 and 2024 drafts have been pretty darn good. And even some of his bad choices, Neal and Waller for example, were the smart moves at the time that just didn't work out. But the mistake at quarterback is so gargantuan that it dwarfs any of these successes and continues to be a massive dead weight on locker room confidence.
Where we probably differ is on selecting a quarterback at six last week. I would have committed to Russell Wilson at vet minimum and tried like crazy to get Drake Maye. And then cut DJ as soon as he is healthy. At worst, we would then have Wilson and Lock if the draft didn't work out. Which it didn't. I personally would have been fine with Penix there, but I can't find fault with Schoen passing given the Penix injury history. I actually thought for sure that we would be able to get him with a trade up. I remain convinced that JJM and Nix are reaches on the magnitude of DJ so the last thing I would want is a repeat of the galactic mistake of 2019.
But imagine how much better things would look right now with Wilson and Lock in the quarterback room. There would be unanimity on this site that we have a shot at the playoffs this year. Instead, as Terps points out, we are projected to be one of the worst teams in the league. Again.
The issue is Jones fatigue and it's impacting the view of the regime. Letting Barkley go and trading for Burns was a real good move. But, Jones just clouds everything.
The issue is Jones fatigue and it's impacting the view of the regime. Letting Barkley go and trading for Burns was a real good move. But, Jones just clouds everything.
Agreed.
Until they start losing to the seasons bottom feeders, whoever they may be, they are in no real danger.
The issue is Jones fatigue and it's impacting the view of the regime. Letting Barkley go and trading for Burns was a real good move. But, Jones just clouds everything.
The sole reason why I have little to no interest in the Giants this fall.
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In comment 16503903 Sean said:
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Schoen has done well in other areas except QB. What does that ultimately mean to Mara and the timeline?
What other areas? Is Dexter Lawrence attributed to JS? Themighty Wr crew priro to the #6 pick in which Wandale has been a healthy solid #2?
You've accepted mediocrity. That's the problem.
Giantstock, I haven't accepted anything. I've been on this board talking about how important QB is and how it should be the pick at 6. They've neglected it.
But, I don't think he's operating like he's a lame duck GM. I'd argue that taking QB would have been the move if he wanted to add job security. I think he has time.
I didn't take your thread how he would look at it but how we woudl look at it if things went wrong. But his perspective - sure. Your thread.
Schoen obviously made a franchise crippling mistake with the donation to tbe Daniel Fund. The guy is a backup QB. It's been obvious for years, including 2022. The offer should have been 1 year $10 million. The franchise tag is preposterous. The idea that the franchise tag was the good option...there aren't even words to describe that. It would be like paying Matt Peart $20 M per year.
I don't think they're really on the hot seat. Mara and his lust for Daniel is the wild card here though. If Daniel is getting embarrassed- booed off the field regularly- then he might blow his top and roll some heads.
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Tim Tebow won a playoff game, too.
Blake Bortles was very close to a trip to the Super Bowl.
If the Giants weren't playing, most or the Jones cult is completely unaware of it.
Again, Schoen and Daboll already did that and proved they get bring in good players and coach.
1.They absolutely have improved the roster from the starters to the backups. It is undeniable.
2.I am CONFIDENT that John Mara has been holding hands with them on the QB decision, and possibly putting his thumb on the scale for Jones. If this is true, then I cannot see how John can fire them over the QB situation.
This idea that the Giants tend to hold onto players longer than they should has merit. Even with Eli. However, is it a coincidence that every GM/coach pairing has this same flaw? OR...is it John who has been the only constant decision maker throughout the years?
Sure, John's the constant and probably a big part of the decision making. That didn't keep him from firing McAdoo, Shurmur, or Judge when the heat came. And it won't protect Daboll either.
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This idea that the Giants tend to hold onto players longer than they should has merit. Even with Eli. However, is it a coincidence that every GM/coach pairing has this same flaw? OR...is it John who has been the only constant decision maker throughout the years?
Sure, John's the constant and probably a big part of the decision making. That didn't keep him from firing McAdoo, Shurmur, or Judge when the heat came. And it won't protect Daboll either.
It won't protect Daboll, but I imagine it would protect Schoen. I'm bullish on Daboll, less so Schoen. But, I think Schoen being 44 and bringing in a lot of well respected people under him buys him a lot of time here.
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In comment 16503716 The Mike said:
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In comment 16503705 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16503683 colin said:
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Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
Daniel Jones has more playoff wins than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins? Inaccurate.
And using playoff wins to judge Jones is rich. 1 in 5 seasons is not something to brag over. Daniel Jones is in the Brown/Kanell/Graham class of Giants QBs: terrible.
And hey in 3 years they paid him and drafted zero QBs. Daniel Jones is their guy.
Facts are facts though according to Colin. Wilson playing in two Super Bowls and winning one apparently is a whispered rumor. And BTW - they still should have signed Wilson at vet minimum anyway... And all Schoen had to do was assure him that he would be the starter! So you are right Terps - DJ is their guy.
Do you, in your heart of hearts, believe that I've been a part of a football message board since 2003, and I'm unaware that Russ won Super Bowls? Or is it possible I made a mistake, and was referencing Zach Wilson? It's the same as if I were to chastise you for saying, "Facts are facts," when you clearly meant "aren't." I know what you meant as I'm sure you did with my comment.
Some of you guys are rabid. I'm not even defending Daniel Jones, just the guys who's hands were forced. Daboll's gonna get run out of town, and the same dudes posting on this thread giving me shit, will be the ones saying, "How could we have let him go?!" when he's holding up a Lombardi with someone else.
Colin - their hands weren't forced! Please stop saying that. That is where you lose all credibility on this topic. There was no reason not to franchise tag DJ last year. None. Please stop defending awarding that abominable contract to DJ because of Barkley - that continues to be a ridiculous excuse!
But be that as it may, this team and its fans deserved an immediate pivot from that mistake this year and are not going to get it until next year - at the earliest. All it took was to sign Russell Wilson to a vet minimum and cut DJ when he becomes healthy. Instead, the DJ Era and its gutter performances will continue unabated. And that really is a shame, given all of the progress that Schoen has made in free agency and the draft in other areas this year. It is truly a master class in franchise malpractice.
Mike - I certainly never claimed to be credible, haha. In all seriousness this has gotten a bit more heated than I operate at, or try to allow myself to operate at, when it comes to this team, and frankly, people on the internet. I’ve been cracking lighthearted jokes this whole time for that reason, but goddamn if some folks just aren’t out for blood. I forget how this place gets around draft time, the offseason seems to bring it out of people.
I made, what I thought to be (and meant to be), a fairly innocuous statement: I just don’t get how someone can glean that Daboll has this undying love for DJ, and that he “chose” him. I’m of the mindset that we hired Dabs to be the HC because of his work with a stellar QB prospect, and it will be up there with Plax shooting himself in ‘08 when we it seemed like we were destined to repeat, as far as “what ifs” go if he gets canned before he gets the chance to work with a stellar QB prospect. The response of “he chose DJ,” just seems emotional and, ultimately, an argument in bad faith.
I agree that if anyone should catch shit, it’s Schoen. But even then, based on what the options were in ‘23, I don’t see the better move that was out there, nor do I see any big ticket FAs that we missed out on because of Jones’s contract. So the argument is that you would have let Barkley walk? Or you would have ponied up the 4 year contract with guaranteed money? ‘Cause Barkley was coming off another injury riddled season and I don’t think that was the play, but I also don’t think letting him walk would have been prudent, or tolerated by ownership or the fanbase. If you don’t like the verbiage of “forced his hand,” we can use the South Park verbiage of his choices were a douche and a turd sandwich, he picked the douche.
It was a misstep, yes, but it’s not as dramatic as folks are making it out to seem. I just don’t see it as a “heads must roll” move. Given market value for a QB, with the ability to walk away next year, it’s more team friendly than meets the eye, which I can only assume is the reason for the injury clause. That part is the toughest to swallow, but again, I understand it. Also, the attempted pivot as evidence by them making a full court press for Maye, shows 1 of 2 things: recognition of the mistake - which is growth for this franchise - or that this was making the best out of a bad situation. 3 QB needy teams picking 1, 2, and 3, is unprecedented, and shit luck.
I think Dabolls the goods. He won the coach of the year, experienced a wild rash of injuries and traitorous subversive DC grasping at straws to save his own reputation so he could still leverage a HC job, and had a down year. Shit happens. We couldn’t get the QB in this draft, which is the first real opportunity we’ve had to do it.
There’s two major points where you lose me:
1.) Russel Wilson. If I’m understanding you right, you’re saying the move that I’m referencing, the thing they didn’t do that they should have, is sign Wilson? I don’t think we should fire a coach and GM who are steadily improving the roster because they didn’t pick up a washed, 35 year old Russel Wilson? I find the DeVito shit annoying but even he’s a better option. And it really does bring me back to the original point: we didn’t miss anyone because of the DJ contract. Schoen nor Daboll are so enthralled with DJ that they lost out on a real QB prospect.
2.) “This fanbase deserves…” listen if you want to talk Mara and the past 12 years, I’m game. 2 years in, one of those a playoff berth and a win in the playoffs with a dogshit team outside of Barkley? That’s just a wild, and kind of cringey statement.
You want to talk about setting the franchise back another 5 years? Yea let’s fire the GM and HC over 1 mistake and 2 years. Definitely makes it an attractive landing spot for potential GMs/HCs running through 4 HCs and 3 GMs in a decade.
It sucks that the QB position did not get upgraded, I’m with you. I really believe that Maye would have been generational under Daboll. It sucks knowing we’ve probably seen the best we’re going to see with a Jones-led squad. And it sucks that we have a dead year more or less. I’m not delusional. All I’m saying is that the HC has shown me enough, and I think the GM has too, that I don’t think bailing is the answer.
We pretty much unanimously agree that DG was one of the worst GMs the Giants ever had. That’s not an overnight turnaround. Name me a team that had that meteoric turnaround that sustained it, and I’ll show you the exception to the rule. I just think the answer is staying the course, and building the infrastructure of a successful franchise, because any remnants of that has been caved out, and all this frantic “must have a new QB, any QB” stuff is just gonna land us with the turd sandwich, or worse. I’m gonna tap out after this comment because this is exhausting, and I just don’t have the wherewithal for name calling and personal digs, I came to shoot the shit with other fans. I responded to you, Mike, because you seem to be the least over the top. I think giantstock accused (?) me of being a closeted Daniel Jones fan, hahaha. Y’all are crazy. Go big blue!
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In comment 16503784 colin said:
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In comment 16503716 The Mike said:
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In comment 16503705 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16503683 colin said:
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Bringing up Wilson, (either Zach or Russ - talk about a franchise hamstrung by a contract: see Denver) Fields, and Cousins kind of proves my point. DJ has more playoff wins than any of them, and I can’t stand DJ! But we’re playing with hindsight and making lateral moves? C’mon.
Daniel Jones has more playoff wins than Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins? Inaccurate.
And using playoff wins to judge Jones is rich. 1 in 5 seasons is not something to brag over. Daniel Jones is in the Brown/Kanell/Graham class of Giants QBs: terrible.
And hey in 3 years they paid him and drafted zero QBs. Daniel Jones is their guy.
Facts are facts though according to Colin. Wilson playing in two Super Bowls and winning one apparently is a whispered rumor. And BTW - they still should have signed Wilson at vet minimum anyway... And all Schoen had to do was assure him that he would be the starter! So you are right Terps - DJ is their guy.
Do you, in your heart of hearts, believe that I've been a part of a football message board since 2003, and I'm unaware that Russ won Super Bowls? Or is it possible I made a mistake, and was referencing Zach Wilson? It's the same as if I were to chastise you for saying, "Facts are facts," when you clearly meant "aren't." I know what you meant as I'm sure you did with my comment.
Some of you guys are rabid. I'm not even defending Daniel Jones, just the guys who's hands were forced. Daboll's gonna get run out of town, and the same dudes posting on this thread giving me shit, will be the ones saying, "How could we have let him go?!" when he's holding up a Lombardi with someone else.
Colin - their hands weren't forced! Please stop saying that. That is where you lose all credibility on this topic. There was no reason not to franchise tag DJ last year. None. Please stop defending awarding that abominable contract to DJ because of Barkley - that continues to be a ridiculous excuse!
But be that as it may, this team and its fans deserved an immediate pivot from that mistake this year and are not going to get it until next year - at the earliest. All it took was to sign Russell Wilson to a vet minimum and cut DJ when he becomes healthy. Instead, the DJ Era and its gutter performances will continue unabated. And that really is a shame, given all of the progress that Schoen has made in free agency and the draft in other areas this year. It is truly a master class in franchise malpractice.
Mike - I certainly never claimed to be credible, haha. In all seriousness this has gotten a bit more heated than I operate at, or try to allow myself to operate at, when it comes to this team, and frankly, people on the internet. I’ve been cracking lighthearted jokes this whole time for that reason, but goddamn if some folks just aren’t out for blood. I forget how this place gets around draft time, the offseason seems to bring it out of people.
I made, what I thought to be (and meant to be), a fairly innocuous statement: I just don’t get how someone can glean that Daboll has this undying love for DJ, and that he “chose” him. I’m of the mindset that we hired Dabs to be the HC because of his work with a stellar QB prospect, and it will be up there with Plax shooting himself in ‘08 when we it seemed like we were destined to repeat, as far as “what ifs” go if he gets canned before he gets the chance to work with a stellar QB prospect. The response of “he chose DJ,” just seems emotional and, ultimately, an argument in bad faith.
I agree that if anyone should catch shit, it’s Schoen. But even then, based on what the options were in ‘23, I don’t see the better move that was out there, nor do I see any big ticket FAs that we missed out on because of Jones’s contract. So the argument is that you would have let Barkley walk? Or you would have ponied up the 4 year contract with guaranteed money? ‘Cause Barkley was coming off another injury riddled season and I don’t think that was the play, but I also don’t think letting him walk would have been prudent, or tolerated by ownership or the fanbase. If you don’t like the verbiage of “forced his hand,” we can use the South Park verbiage of his choices were a douche and a turd sandwich, he picked the douche.
It was a misstep, yes, but it’s not as dramatic as folks are making it out to seem. I just don’t see it as a “heads must roll” move. Given market value for a QB, with the ability to walk away next year, it’s more team friendly than meets the eye, which I can only assume is the reason for the injury clause. That part is the toughest to swallow, but again, I understand it. Also, the attempted pivot as evidence by them making a full court press for Maye, shows 1 of 2 things: recognition of the mistake - which is growth for this franchise - or that this was making the best out of a bad situation. 3 QB needy teams picking 1, 2, and 3, is unprecedented, and shit luck.
I think Dabolls the goods. He won the coach of the year, experienced a wild rash of injuries and traitorous subversive DC grasping at straws to save his own reputation so he could still leverage a HC job, and had a down year. Shit happens. We couldn’t get the QB in this draft, which is the first real opportunity we’ve had to do it.
There’s two major points where you lose me:
1.) Russel Wilson. If I’m understanding you right, you’re saying the move that I’m referencing, the thing they didn’t do that they should have, is sign Wilson? I don’t think we should fire a coach and GM who are steadily improving the roster because they didn’t pick up a washed, 35 year old Russel Wilson? I find the DeVito shit annoying but even he’s a better option. And it really does bring me back to the original point: we didn’t miss anyone because of the DJ contract. Schoen nor Daboll are so enthralled with DJ that they lost out on a real QB prospect.
2.) “This fanbase deserves…” listen if you want to talk Mara and the past 12 years, I’m game. 2 years in, one of those a playoff berth and a win in the playoffs with a dogshit team outside of Barkley? That’s just a wild, and kind of cringey statement.
You want to talk about setting the franchise back another 5 years? Yea let’s fire the GM and HC over 1 mistake and 2 years. Definitely makes it an attractive landing spot for potential GMs/HCs running through 4 HCs and 3 GMs in a decade.
It sucks that the QB position did not get upgraded, I’m with you. I really believe that Maye would have been generational under Daboll. It sucks knowing we’ve probably seen the best we’re going to see with a Jones-led squad. And it sucks that we have a dead year more or less. I’m not delusional. All I’m saying is that the HC has shown me enough, and I think the GM has too, that I don’t think bailing is the answer.
We pretty much unanimously agree that DG was one of the worst GMs the Giants ever had. That’s not an overnight turnaround. Name me a team that had that meteoric turnaround that sustained it, and I’ll show you the exception to the rule. I just think the answer is staying the course, and building the infrastructure of a successful franchise, because any remnants of that has been caved out, and all this frantic “must have a new QB, any QB” stuff is just gonna land us with the turd sandwich, or worse. I’m gonna tap out after this comment because this is exhausting, and I just don’t have the wherewithal for name calling and personal digs, I came to shoot the shit with other fans. I responded to you, Mike, because you seem to be the least over the top. I think giantstock accused (?) me of being a closeted Daniel Jones fan, hahaha. Y’all are crazy. Go big blue!
It is exhausting. Schoen has needed to pivot asap from DJ lest he lose the locker room again and put Daboll in jeopardy of being the fall guy. Which would be a grave outcome for this franchise. Wilson was simply a cheap way to do that. And while he may not be vintage Wilson, he ain't washed up either. Wilson with this wide receiver group now would be just fine.
While we may disagree, I do appreciate your commitment as a fan to this team. My beef is with Joe Schoen and John Mara, not with other Giants fans.