Offensive Line

Resources do you expect us to throw at the line? Neal, Mckethan, Ezeudu and JMS in the past 2 drafts. They brought in multiple free agents this year and a new line coach. It's time for some of the younger guys to step up.

none of them have, it literally effects the entire offense

There were plenty of second rounders that would have been major upgrades

Dallas always seems to get this right

In comment 16504396 Don from CT said:

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none of them have, it literally effects the entire offense There were plenty of second rounders that would have been major upgrades Dallas always seems to get this right

I'm hoping it was a coaching issue. I can't imagine them being all being this bad. Odds have to be against it. I also think having a weapon in the the passing game might slow the defense down a little.

In comment 16504387 Giantsbigblue said:

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Resources do you expect us to throw at the line? Neal, Mckethan, Ezeudu and JMS in the past 2 drafts. They brought in multiple free agents this year and a new line coach. It's time for some of the younger guys to step up.

Well, as many as it takes. It's what has fucked this offense since 2012. That said I agree it's time for coaching and who they have to step up.

That the strategy has become to sign moderately priced veterans that they know can play at OL, and use the draft for other positions they do a better job of in the draft. This is a good strategy when you repeatedly draft OL who can't play.

In comment 16504414 Fifty Six said:

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That the strategy has become to sign moderately priced veterans that they know can play at OL, and use the draft for other positions they do a better job of in the draft. This is a good strategy when you repeatedly draft OL who can't play.

Good point

Don can go be a fan of the Cowboys because they always get it right.

not me

In comment 16504463 mpinmaine said:

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Don can go be a fan of the Cowboys because they always get it right. not me

You tell him! How dare he bring up the very thing that has derailed our offense for the past decade plus!

Will it matter if the answers came from draft or FA? Drafted players need to develop. They have four draftees who may or may not workout but are too young to give up on just yet. They have a new Oline coach who will get his hands on them. In FA they brought in an interior Oline abd an OT with starting experience, and I think two more who project as depth. They paid two UDFAs on the Oline. I can’t say they fixed the line, but they didn’t ignore it. Every draft pick was a need and we needed more than Oline. I would have loved an Oline in draft. But the way the picks fall has a say in that, and we only had 6.

A difference this year?

Or are you saying the Giants shouldn't have addressed WR or Safety?

have fixed our offensive line woes. Check out the thread from when we signed Glowinski:


Giants sign Mark Glowinski


Everyone loved it. I suspect this off season's additions won't fare much better than our previous ones.

to the fan that thinks the line can't be fixed with FAs.

I remember at the time they were characterized as another team's cast offs.

Safety.

I would have liked Sumataia at that point, but sounds like Belton and Owen’s weren’t viable options.

and now FA, as well as UDFA it appears.

I think the plan is to give this new OL coach, who's supposed to be good, a large group to choose 8 or 9 guys from.

Should be an open competition. Would like to see Neal try RG just for purposes of comparison.

That said consider:

1) The Giants have a 1st,2nd, 3rd and 5th rd pick in yr 2 or 3 on the roster this regime drafted.
2) For whatever reason, none of those players have developed
3) a bust rate of 50 percent is about average
4) New OL coach

While I agree that an OL would help, I also think there is a backlog of OL needing coaching attention. Consider that the roster had a lot of needs, they couldn't fix everything in the draft. They also knew going in they couldn't fix everything in the draft, and even with that they traded for Burns.

Burns is proven, Nabers looks like a difference Maker. Where as Barkley was on the decline. I think the team improved because the difference making players improved. And I think the OL has contingency built into it, and should moderately improve.

to fix what Bobby Johnson basically ruined. Not one OL draftee or FA developed under him. Even vets took a step backward under him.

Don as far as Cowboys getting it right - Evan Neal was the #1 OT in the 2022 draft on their board and the #2 player on their entire draft board. I am hoping the Cowboys got it right.

10 years of BBI complaining about terrible OL play. The whole offense is ruined by terrible OL play. It's all the OL.

They've drafted:
Justin Pugh
Eric Herman
Weston Richburg
Erik Flowers
Bobby Hart
Adam Bisnowaty
will Hernandez
George Asafo-Adiei
Shane Lemieux
Matt Peart
Andrew Thomas
Evan Neal
Josh Ezeudu
Marcus McKethan
JMM

They've signed/traded for:
John Jerry
JD Walton
Geoff Schwartz
Marshall Newhouse
Brett Jones
Jon Halapio
Spencer Pulley
Nate Solder
Kevin Zeitler
Mike Remmers
Cam Fleming
Matt Skura
Billy Price
Mark Glowinski
Ben Bredeson
Jon Feliciano
Tyre Phillips

I didn't even get into the one off's like Chad Wheeler and Nick Gates and the like.

OL line coaches have included:
Pat Flaherty
Mike Solari
Hall Hunter
Marc Colombo
Dave DeGuglielmo
Rob Sale
Bobby Johnson

It COULD be all their faults. But when a situation is this bad for this long and showing little signs of improvement - I'm looking for constants. I here are three situations in my eyes at this point:

Either the Giants front office is completely inept when it comes to scouting collegiate OL talent to draft AND identifying good OL players within the NFL to sign.

OR

The last ten seasons of New York Giants offense football have been captained by two QBs that are incapable of escaping any kind of pressure in the pocket (see Eli Manning in the later stages of his career basically playing 2 hand touch when pressured in the pocket) AND a QB that simply can not identify pressure packages from opposing defenses, call out proper protections, and just CAN not manipulate a pocket to save his career (see Daniel Jones).

OR

worse case scenario - BOTH.

In comment 16504387 Giantsbigblue said:

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Resources do you expect us to throw at the line? Neal, Mckethan, Ezeudu and JMS in the past 2 drafts. They brought in multiple free agents this year and a new line coach. It's time for some of the younger guys to step up.

Your question has been asked by several BBIers beginning with the owner of this site. But if the draft choices don’t pan out, then this question is besides the point. The Giants need to keep drafting offensive linemen until they get it right.

With regards to o line.

Simply terrible

However they get it done, it doesn't matter. They have young drafted players on the roster and veterans who will compete. That's what they're going in with.

The Neal pick is what's screwing up the calculus here. A top 10 pick that's not just living up to the status, but is a liability. It seems like a long shot, but I don't blame them for giving him one more shot at it with the new Oline coach. But this is kind of a last chance for him. Even if he salvaged something at Guard, that would be a big win at this point. I'm not optimistic, but really, not much more to say until we get into camp/preseason.

In comment 16504948 UberAlias said:

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However they get it done, it doesn't matter. They have young drafted players on the roster and veterans who will compete. That's what they're going in with. The Neal pick is what's screwing up the calculus here. A top 10 pick that's not just living up to the status, but is a liability. It seems like a long shot, but I don't blame them for giving him one more shot at it with the new Oline coach. But this is kind of a last chance for him. Even if he salvaged something at Guard, that would be a big win at this point. I'm not optimistic, but really, not much more to say until we get into camp/preseason.

Very well said, especially your dead-on comment: “The Neal pick is what’s screwing up the calculus here.”

You can say that again!

In comment 16504955 M.S. said:

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In comment 16504948 UberAlias said: Quote: However they get it done, it doesn't matter. They have young drafted players on the roster and veterans who will compete. That's what they're going in with. The Neal pick is what's screwing up the calculus here. A top 10 pick that's not just living up to the status, but is a liability. It seems like a long shot, but I don't blame them for giving him one more shot at it with the new Oline coach. But this is kind of a last chance for him. Even if he salvaged something at Guard, that would be a big win at this point. I'm not optimistic, but really, not much more to say until we get into camp/preseason. Very well said, especially your dead-on comment: “The Neal pick is what’s screwing up the calculus here.” You can say that again!

While I don't know what will happen with Neal, it's just wrong to ignore that he was showing improvement his first year before he got hurt, that he played several games early last year with an injured ankle because the rest of the line was out. And when that healed he was again showing improvement before he broke his ankle against the Raiders.

One of the ignored problems with the Giants having invested more draft picks in the last 5 or 6 year in the O line than any other team (and likely more FAs too) is that it means they don't use those resources on other positions. So you can trace the lack of talent across the entire roster to the offensive line issue.

Imagine if over the last six or seven years the Giants could have found a quality two-way tight end with one of those picks or signings, and a starting CB, and a young DL who could play three downs next to Dex and pressure the QB. And a top flight receiver.

Bounce, bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce...pat , pat....try to run , get sacked....

The problem isn't what he does when he has no time. The problem is what he does when he does have time. And that is nothing .

excuse from spending more resources trying to succeed. That is especially so when it is 1) besides QBs the most important unit on the field 2) we have not had a good one in over a decade and we are losing credibility as a franchise. Even our feckless owner said he can't understand how this has been so bad for so long

In comment 16504396 Don from CT said:

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none of them have, it literally effects the entire offense There were plenty of second rounders that would have been major upgrades Dallas always seems to get this right

Here's what you might be forgetting (or ignoring): there's only so many reps to go around.

The Giants are clearly betting on improved OL coaching making a significant difference, and they've signed a number of veteran stopgaps as insurance in case that bet on Bricillo ends up being less of a payoff than they're anticipating.

Meanwhile, the Giants have already allocated more draft resources to the OL than any other team in the league. It hasn't returned the expected dividends, true, but they still do have to address the rest of the roster along the way as well. Would a rd6 OL developmental project that gets a few dozen meaningful snaps between now and Labor Day really have made you feel that much better? And how would that project be any different than the mid/late round guys that Schoen already has on the roster from the previous drafts?

In comment 16505057 averagejoe said:

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Bounce, bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce...pat , pat....try to run , get sacked.... The problem isn't what he does when he has no time. The problem is what he does when he does have time. And that is nothing .

And that's just on DJ's screen passes!

;>)

In comment 16504548 jcp56 said:

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to the fan that thinks the line can't be fixed with FAs. I remember at the time they were characterized as another team's cast offs.

I'm not sure Seubert could ever be classified as another team's castoff since he signed with the Giants as a UDFA and played his entire career with us.

In comment 16504387 Giantsbigblue said:

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Resources do you expect us to throw at the line? Neal, Mckethan, Ezeudu and JMS in the past 2 drafts. They brought in multiple free agents this year and a new line coach. It's time for some of the younger guys to step up.

So who are you confident that can step up?

In comment 16505121 Section227 said:

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In comment 16504387 Giantsbigblue said: Quote: Resources do you expect us to throw at the line? Neal, Mckethan, Ezeudu and JMS in the past 2 drafts. They brought in multiple free agents this year and a new line coach. It's time for some of the younger guys to step up. So who are you confident that can step up?

I still have hope for everyone other than McKethan. Ezedu played out of position last year. Neal has missed valuable time due to injury.

In comment 16505075 Jim in Tampa said:

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In comment 16505057 averagejoe said: Quote: Bounce, bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce...pat , pat....try to run , get sacked.... The problem isn't what he does when he has no time. The problem is what he does when he does have time. And that is nothing . And that's just on DJ's screen passes! ;>)

Worst screen pass thrower I have ever seen was Eli. He was atrocious and there is no other word to describe it.

In comment 16505138 Giantsbigblue said:

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In comment 16505121 Section227 said: Quote: In comment 16504387 Giantsbigblue said: Quote: Resources do you expect us to throw at the line? Neal, Mckethan, Ezeudu and JMS in the past 2 drafts. They brought in multiple free agents this year and a new line coach. It's time for some of the younger guys to step up. So who are you confident that can step up? I still have hope for everyone other than McKethan. Ezedu played out of position last year. Neal has missed valuable time due to injury.

If the have any plan that has Neal at T, we are setting up for failure..... We sighned Eluemunor who had a much better season at T than Neal, I think your right on Ezedu, although he has been injured often. McKethan on the other had is terrible. Can't play the run and has terrible technique. For a guy with good measurables he isn't very good. Our FA really need to step up.

In comment 16505151 Section227 said:

Quote:

In comment 16505138 Giantsbigblue said: Quote: In comment 16505121 Section227 said: Quote: In comment 16504387 Giantsbigblue said: Quote: Resources do you expect us to throw at the line? Neal, Mckethan, Ezeudu and JMS in the past 2 drafts. They brought in multiple free agents this year and a new line coach. It's time for some of the younger guys to step up. So who are you confident that can step up? I still have hope for everyone other than McKethan. Ezedu played out of position last year. Neal has missed valuable time due to injury. If the have any plan that has Neal at T, we are setting up for failure..... We sighned Eluemunor who had a much better season at T than Neal, I think your right on Ezedu, although he has been injured often. McKethan on the other had is terrible. Can't play the run and has terrible technique. For a guy with good measurables he isn't very good. Our FA really need to step up.

So to be clear, you feel like two years is an adequate amount of time to judge an underperforming top-ten pick that has had poor coaching and injury issues? And after that two year period, you feel that it would be appropriate to use premium resources again in an attempt to upgrade/replace that underperforming young top-ten pick?

I'm not saying I disagree, just want to make sure I have the parameters correct.

Schoen said they had a lot of needs and maybe the value was better at other positions in the draft.

They should strive to replace someone every season with a better and cheaper player.

Most of the Giants good OL you knew very quickly they would be studs. I was disappointed they did not have a better plan if Neal was going to struggle like his rookie season.

In comment 16504972 k2tampa said:

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In comment 16504955 M.S. said: Quote: In comment 16504948 UberAlias said: Quote: However they get it done, it doesn't matter. They have young drafted players on the roster and veterans who will compete. That's what they're going in with. The Neal pick is what's screwing up the calculus here. A top 10 pick that's not just living up to the status, but is a liability. It seems like a long shot, but I don't blame them for giving him one more shot at it with the new Oline coach. But this is kind of a last chance for him. Even if he salvaged something at Guard, that would be a big win at this point. I'm not optimistic, but really, not much more to say until we get into camp/preseason. Very well said, especially your dead-on comment: “The Neal pick is what’s screwing up the calculus here.” You can say that again! While I don't know what will happen with Neal, it's just wrong to ignore that he was showing improvement his first year before he got hurt, that he played several games early last year with an injured ankle because the rest of the line was out. And when that healed he was again showing improvement before he broke his ankle against the Raiders. One of the ignored problems with the Giants having invested more draft picks in the last 5 or 6 year in the O line than any other team (and likely more FAs too) is that it means they don't use those resources on other positions. So you can trace the lack of talent across the entire roster to the offensive line issue. Imagine if over the last six or seven years the Giants could have found a quality two-way tight end with one of those picks or signings, and a starting CB, and a young DL who could play three downs next to Dex and pressure the QB. And a top flight receiver.

+1 Exactly right, the failed OL resources (FA signings and draft picks) have had a trickle down effect on many other positions on the team, and it’s the main reason why the talent gap has been so wide with the teams in our division (minus the fact we can’t run or pass block).

To me the analysis is simple. If the problem is talent we are hosed. We have spent more assets on talent than almost any team. If we have evaluated that poorly it cannot be fixed except over a multi year time frame. It the problem has been coaching then why would we replace highly drafted prospects with other highly drafted prospects? Let our new coach work with Neal and JMS and see if he can make them at least average. Just league average line play would be substantially better than anything we have seen in more than a decade.

I think the plan is to see how the new coaching works and then reevaluate after this year.

I have low expectations for this OL

In comment 16505062 Essex said:

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excuse from spending more resources trying to succeed. That is especially so when it is 1) besides QBs the most important unit on the field 2) we have not had a good one in over a decade and we are losing credibility as a franchise. Even our feckless owner said he can't understand how this has been so bad for so long

Agree 1000%

In comment 16505057 averagejoe said:

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Bounce, bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce....pat, pat...bounce , bounce...pat , pat....try to run , get sacked.... The problem isn't what he does when he has no time. The problem is what he does when he does have time. And that is nothing .

This is wrong... He led the league last year with the shortest amount of time. When he has had time he actually made plays. Must like most QBs when they are given time.

We drafted a top 10 OL in 2022 and a 2nd rounder last year. Not to mention 3 other draft picks in those years. We signed two guys to start this off season along with 3 other OL with starting experience. As of now we are expecting our starting OL of AT (1st rounder 4th overall), Runyon (high priced FA), JMS (2nd rounder), Eluemunor (high priced FA), and Neal (1st rounder 7th overall). How much more should we keep adding, at some point you have to help the rest of the team.

This has been a false criticism of the last 3 GMs. We have addressed the OL significantly every year and swung and missed with almost every player. We have spend considerable draft resources and FA $ on OL and this has been consistently true. I think for a long time our personnel department was awful at evaluating college OL, pro OL, and in house OL. That said, I think the current front office has been implementing some changes and it looks like the new OL coach had some input in the FA signings.

We signed one of his OL, don't forget. What did we sign overall? 5 OL? That made OL in the draft this year less of a need. We very likely added 2 new starting OGs and depth to the point where some of our incumbent OL will be gone. I like the moves they've made and expect this unit to jump from bottom 3 to middle of the pack this year.

The Giants offensive line is chalk full of high resource acquisitions.

LT Thomas - Pick 4, 2nd highest AAV in NFL
LG Runyan - UFA, 9th highest AAV in NFL
C Schmidt - Pick 57
RG Eluemunor - UFA, 13th highest AAV in NFL
RT Neal - Pick 7

And the depth is a much better mix of young draft picks and former veteran starters.

Thing in mind with regards to our recently drafted OL. The OL coach works them out and has a hand in how they are rated and selected. Bobby Johnson is a long time friend of Daboll, and he got canned hard. That tells you how abysmal he was at coaching and scouting. Those picks save Neal are influenced by what he wants, which is clearly crapola. New OL coach brings his own guy over in FA and Runyan can play. If he fixes Neal and JMS, the drought is over.

That Evan Neal is what's messing up the calculus of the lineman the Giants have Drafted recently (this is a really good/accurate answer)

Picking my brain on Neal, what is the right thing to do with him?

I've seen people here get crucified for suggesting he get moved to Right Guard

Is he a true LT, maybe Andrew Thomas moves over to the right? Even though AT was paid as a LT, I really do think he's a better football player then Evan Neal, maybe a switch like this is the reality?

Like most people here, I'm just a diehard fan, the Giants are the Pro's and should be able to answer this question

I will agree with what seems to be the popular sentiment, that Evan Neal is really effing this whole thing up, if he can just become average or slightly above, the whole thing should fall in line (no pun intended) .

If he plays well, I think it can effect the trajectory of this entire team, at least I'm praying. Just really sick and tired of this entire unit as a whole for whats gotta be the past 10 seasons

Whatever the fix is if the team as a whole is going to take the next step

I really see nothing wrong with the defense, the pieces are there

The offense has lots of unknowns (Jalin Hyatt/Running Game/Daniel Jones) etc.

can’t lose him for 2 months, especially in the beginning of the year. He’s their best player. As Thomas goes so goes the giants OL.