Ex GM Mike Lombardi is at it again...The Giants appear to be satisfied with moving ahead with what they have in-house and that, says former NFL executive Michael Lombardi, is ruining the franchise.
"And remember, John Mara, the president of the team — he’s the reason why Daniel Jones is making all that money — he loves Daniel Jones. He drafted Daniel Jones as the sixth pick overall. Nothing would make them more happy than Daniel Jones being successful. They’re almost willing it to happen. It won’t, but they’re hoping it will.”
Lombardi says the Giants’ ‘love’ for players is bringing them down. They are forgetting that the logo on the side of the helmet is more important than the names on the back of the jerseys.
“They have the worst record in the last 10 years in the NFC East. It’s a shame, because the Giants should be a stellar franchise in the league. But, because they fall in love with their players, they love their players, they make bad decisions.”
Lombardi on Giants - (
New Window )
The best thing about Lombardi is people mistake him for someone else.
Because he's been proven right time after time after time.
His writing is atrocious. Every article of his I read, sounds like a third grader rambling. He doesn't make any points, or back them up with facts. He rambles and takes shots.
He likes using hearsay as his evidence and he takes things out of context continually.
The definition of a hack!
The best thing about Lombardi is people mistake him for someone else.
We should call him the frebreeze analyst because his takes are so fresh. Hahahaha
Cannot keep changing the top professionals thus allowing the 2018 infection to evolve and spread.
My take is they are still very much open to replacing Jones, but didn't feel strongly enough about that group of QBs to pull the trigger. I still would not be surprised, depending on how this season turns out, to see Jones cut after the season.
But sometimes even those kinds of people have good points to make.
That approach screwed both Eli and the Giants.
My take is they are still very much open to replacing Jones, but didn't feel strongly enough about that group of QBs to pull the trigger. I still would not be surprised, depending on how this season turns out, to see Jones cut after the season.
What's false about it? Nix, Penix and JJM all offer higher ceiling than Jones. We're not winning anything with Jones, so why are we entering year 6 with him at the helm? It's grossly incompetent.
I really would love to know why Mara loves him so much. So confounding.
I really would love to know why Mara loves him so much. So confounding.
If anything Eli looks better now given the shit that's happened since he left, 2 SB wins with all this garbage around him. Pretty incredible isn't it?
Right, he’s on the Eagles because Mara didn’t want him traded during the season because he “owed it” to Barkley to be able to decide where he wanted to play.
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Not here.
Right, he’s on the Eagles because Mara didn’t want him traded during the season because he “owed it” to Barkley to be able to decide where he wanted to play.
I honestly can’t believe John said that publicly. He’s a buffoon.
No, we don't. We have no say in what Schoen does. Schoen does not care what Lombardi says or which BBIer approves of what Lombardi says.
Sorry to break it to you.
And they openly demand it
"If they fall in love with a quarterback and believe that it's worth pick No. 6 -- or moving up -- I certainly would support that," Mara said Monday about this year Draft and a QB
On Jones
“I loved him on film. I absolutely loved him. I loved everything about him. And then I went to the Senior Bowl and I watched him that week,” Gettleman said of Jones, who won the Senior Bowl MVP Award. “I made up my mind that I was staying for the game and, frankly, he walked out there and I saw a professional quarterback after the three series that I watched, I saw a professional quarterback. I was in full bloom love.”
And most of those on here were and do demand they can only draft a QB if there is a “conviction” or “fall in love”
That is exactly what is demanded and happening
When you get to the point where you have to explain to people that saying they are in "love" with a guy they literally tried to buy his replacement with multiple first round picks is nonsensical. And the fact that so many applaud the notion just shows what we've regressed to. So sad.
Hey, go shout out some nonsensical shit. If it aligns with my feelings emotionally, I'll endorse it.
Happy Eli retired a Giant. I am upset Reese ruined the back end of his career.
The same folks lauding ML on this post are the same ones that "are done with Daniel Jones." You have the right to feel however you want, but this is a giant ech chamber.
Siding with carnival barkers like Lombardi is not the way.
Happy Eli retired a Giant. I am upset Reese ruined the back end of his career.
Well, Mara did declare Jones the "franchise QB" after the Vikings win. Do you tag a franchise QB?
My take is they are still very much open to replacing Jones, but didn't feel strongly enough about that group of QBs to pull the trigger. I still would not be surprised, depending on how this season turns out, to see Jones cut after the season.
That’s fair, but signing a QB who hasn’t thrown for more than 15 TD’s in 5 years to a $40M AAV contract is indicative of them loving Jones.
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Not taking a QB is not necessarily indicative of them loving Jones. It is more about them not loving McCarthy, Nix or Penix enough to take at 6 and not wanting to give up too much for May or McCarthy.
My take is they are still very much open to replacing Jones, but didn't feel strongly enough about that group of QBs to pull the trigger. I still would not be surprised, depending on how this season turns out, to see Jones cut after the season.
What's false about it? Nix, Penix and JJM all offer higher ceiling than Jones. We're not winning anything with Jones, so why are we entering year 6 with him at the helm? It's grossly incompetent.
Just moronic.
Instead of copying the school handbook or an essay on the mating habits of fruit flies, we see this rehashing of the Giants' QB situation and the draft.
Wish they would give it a rest.
If true, Schoen gets a pass, no?
I like Lombardi, I find him entertaining. However, it's funny that everything that happened in Oakland or Cleveland he's not responsible for, but everything that happened in NE he was involved with. 😂
That's what happened and everyone saw it play out. Everything else is histrionics. Intellectually dull, lame, and tiring.
The Giants simply don’t have enough guys in the building who know what they’re doing. It’s as simple as that.
There’s no vision, no grand plan. They kicked the key football guy out (Coughlin) and have been reeling ever since. That’s why TC wouldn’t shake Mara’s hand. He knew.
That’s true and I think a good point. The problem is that it appears that Mara has not learned his lesson about letting the professionals do their jobs. I would almost bet that not only did the Jones contract itself come about as a result of Mara’s meddling. But, that injury clause he has, which has the potential to make a bad situation worse, also came down from Mara.
If true, Schoen gets a pass, no?
I think Daboll is most likely to be fired. Mara seems pretty consistent that the on-the-field results fall to the coach, even if management stacks the deck against them.
Remember, Shurmur got fired because Mara expected more wins. The coach is expected to win, with the hand management gives them.
--Mara declares Jones "a franchise QB" after the Vikings playoff win. He says he was bound to get something right in drafting Eli's successor.
--Mara calls Jones shortly before the franchise tag deadline about the contract in hopes to get Jones to sign.
Why should Schoen then force a QB pick at 6 for McCarthy/Penix/Nix where 95% of BBI did not think any of those guys were worth it at 6. Over drafting a QB out of desperation? Sound familiar?
Oh yeah, Jones predated Schoen and the owner loves him. But yeah, let's blame Schoen. These jobs aren't equal and what he inherited certainly wasn't equal. Adam Peters is a great comp, a far easier walk in situation.
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In comment 16505503 Blue21 said:
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Not here.
Right, he’s on the Eagles because Mara didn’t want him traded during the season because he “owed it” to Barkley to be able to decide where he wanted to play.
I honestly can’t believe John said that publicly. He’s a buffoon.
Men like Mara want you to know who's the boss.
That’s what being a good GM is. The hot seat, gotta have a difference maker there.
If Schoen didn’t want DJ and couldn’t or wouldn’t lead the organization in what he thought a better direction, the job may be too big for his britches. It’s on him either way.
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Lombardi crosses path with the truth unwittingly from time to time. This happens to be one of them.
If true, Schoen gets a pass, no?
I think Daboll is most likely to be fired. Mara seems pretty consistent that the on-the-field results fall to the coach, even if management stacks the deck against them.
Remember, Shurmur got fired because Mara expected more wins. The coach is expected to win, with the hand management gives them.
I agree. But, blaming the Jones contract on Schoen really is starting to feel disingenuous. The owner had a clear preference.
Bravo again christian, the move was to pick up the option. You saw this from a mile away. Blame Schoen for that.
The reality is that you need to find a balance between patience and sunk cost to find success. Mara needs to realize that this isn't 1972 where these guys are selling bread loaves in the offseason. He doesn't owe them any loyalty. Maybe Saquon going to Philly will be the nut punch he needs to realize that. I hope so.
We will know in the next couple of seasons whether their decision making has made the team a playoff contender. If no appreciable improvement is made the Giants will continue to be a terrible franchise and new management will take over. I hope Schoen is getting it right because more losing football is unacceptable.
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In comment 16505564 Sean said:
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Lombardi crosses path with the truth unwittingly from time to time. This happens to be one of them.
If true, Schoen gets a pass, no?
I think Daboll is most likely to be fired. Mara seems pretty consistent that the on-the-field results fall to the coach, even if management stacks the deck against them.
Remember, Shurmur got fired because Mara expected more wins. The coach is expected to win, with the hand management gives them.
I agree. But, blaming the Jones contract on Schoen really is starting to feel disingenuous. The owner had a clear preference.
Bravo again christian, the move was to pick up the option. You saw this from a mile away. Blame Schoen for that.
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why?
Because he's been proven right time after time after time.
Like when he said that the Panthers were much farther along than the Giants after the Giants beat them two seasons ago?
I agree. But, blaming the Jones contract on Schoen really is starting to feel disingenuous. The owner had a clear preference.
Bravo again christian, the move was to pick up the option. You saw this from a mile away. Blame Schoen for that.
In the before times, I think Mara felt like the leaders were him, Dave, and his brother Chris. And the coach worked at their pleasure.
That dynamic has to be a little different with Daboll and Schoen because of their history.
So hopefully Schoen has the balls to say to Mara, hey look fucker, you're the one who made this bed for Daboll.
This stuff ain't going away until he plays up to par, or is gone.
The interest in Maye feels like that list you have with your wife where she can get busy with George Clooney. Yeah sure, what wife doesn't want Clooney. I'm not losing any sleep over that shaking out.
When she puts the oncologist across the street on the list, then I get nervous.
I don't know...I don't think simply "saying it" will get it done. Maybe we should all try holding our collective breaths until it gets addressed. That just might work. Some of us could try stamping our feet, too.
This stuff ain't going away until he plays up to par, or is gone.
Doesn't that align with what you wanted though? No on McCarthy/Penix/Nix at six and if I recall you didn't want to address QB later either with just six picks? My apologies if I'm incorrect.
Mark my words, Nabers and a 2nd-year from Hyatt will make Jones look like a competent QB when they take 7 yard slants for big gains.
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In comment 16505512 Matt M. said:
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Not taking a QB is not necessarily indicative of them loving Jones. It is more about them not loving McCarthy, Nix or Penix enough to take at 6 and not wanting to give up too much for May or McCarthy.
My take is they are still very much open to replacing Jones, but didn't feel strongly enough about that group of QBs to pull the trigger. I still would not be surprised, depending on how this season turns out, to see Jones cut after the season.
What's false about it? Nix, Penix and JJM all offer higher ceiling than Jones. We're not winning anything with Jones, so why are we entering year 6 with him at the helm? It's grossly incompetent.
I agree all 3 should be better than Jones. But, I can also see the Giants not thinking by a wide enough margin or that any are a can't miss enough to spend a #6 pick or trade up. I don't necessarily agree, as I would probably have selected McCarthy there. But, not taking him doesn't have to mean they love Jones. I haven't seen or heard anything the last month that really indicates they in love with Jones, so much as resigned to knowing he's there for this season. Beyond that is up in the air.
The mere fact that Daniel Jones is still on this team testifies to the Giants' incompetence. Teams move off failed QBs quickly. Why are we wasting time with a limited QB. The answer is the Giants, as an organization, view it as a virtue to be loyal to the face of the franchise, and if it takes extra years to make a change they are fine with it. But they could stumble into a Super Bowl window with a QB they didn't expect to be great. Once you know a QB does not have a Super Bowl window, you must move on. The most valuable resource is time. The Giants squander time like no other organization.
No one here should give to shits what Lombardi thinks.
No one here should give to shits what Lombardi thinks.
The truth hurts, huh David?
Tomorrow, the next post that veers close --outrage!
We get it. I anxiously look forward to the next of these brilliant takes. The Giants are stupid, and sucks, and they're ugly because Daniel Jones is their Quarterback.
The results of that post too will be enlightening. New outrage!
From Wiki:
"As an executive:
UNLV (1981–1984)
Recruiting coordinator
San Francisco 49ers (1984–1987)
Scout
Cleveland Browns (1987–1989)
Scout
Cleveland Browns (1989–1993)
Pro personnel director
Cleveland Browns (1993–1995)
Director of player personnel
Philadelphia Eagles (1998)
Director of pro personnel
Oakland Raiders (1998–2006)
Senior personnel executive
Denver Broncos (2007)
Personnel assistant
Cleveland Browns (2013–2014)
General manager & vice president
New England Patriots (2014–2016)
Assistant to the coaching staff"
http://wikipedia.org
A man of great skills, might be it takes one to know one? He is still a prick:
Inside the Numbers: A Look At The Browns Decade Of Losing - ( New Window )
Unless he has a phenomenal year and stays healthy, Jones is gone after this season. And if does both, then he'll be gone in 2026, when the dead cap hit for cutting him is only $11M IIRC. Jones is now officially at best a "bridge starter" for a year or two, and even that isn't guaranteed, since despite what the Giants are saying right now, he might not be ready to start opening day. And even if he is, Lock might still beat him out.
Unless he has a phenomenal year and stays healthy, Jones is gone after this season. And if does both, then he'll be gone in 2026, when the dead cap hit for cutting him is only $11M IIRC. Jones is now officially at best a "bridge starter" for a year or two, and even that isn't guaranteed, since despite what the Giants are saying right now, he might not be ready to start opening day. And even if he is, Lock might still beat him out.
+1 Agreed
Predraft--2019
Mara meets with Dan Jones and is on record saying "he reminds me of a young Eli"... Mara also states ultimately it is his choice on who the Giants QB is
2019-2021
Dan Jones is drafted, gets the starting job and is never challenged. Giants do not draft a QB in the next 5 years and fail to bring in a competent QB to even compete with him.
The offense is dreadful. Coordinators get fired, coaches get fired and a GM too.. Dan Jones remains throughout it all.
2021 offseason going into 2022
Mara is on record saying "We have done everything possible to screw this kid up"---when has a owner ever come out and said this about a QB who quite frankly has played horribly?
Jan 2023 --after playoff win
Mara is on record saying, it was "Gratifying" to see Dan Jones do well and win a playoff game... Of course it was Gratifying to see your mistake do something good
March 2023-- contract negotiation
It was reported when Joe Schoen was playing hardball with Dan Jones and his agents, Mara and Dan Jones had a phone conversation.. and in the 11th hour a deal was struck. Mara was heavily involved.
So has Lombardi said, Giants have been willing Dan Jones to succeed and be a franchise QB..but you can put lipstick on a pig..
Now he's back on his "Mara loves Jones" kick.
Seems like he's playing both sides of the street.
Reread what you wrote. Dan Jones is exhibit A for bad draft choice. We all knew he was a massive reach at 6th overall, and as time has proven, rightly so.
Sy's QB ratings:
McCarthy 84
Jones 80
Nix 80
Penix 79
Now he's back on his "Mara loves Jones" kick.
Seems like he's playing both sides of the street.
Eric, Lombardi is an attention where. Anything he needs to say or write to drive clicks or ratings.
Sy's QB ratings:
McCarthy 84
Jones 80
Nix 80
Penix 79
This is the issue and what I've realized in the last week. Schoen is supposed to settle for someone and overdraft a QB after Jones was overdrafted and restart the cycle?
If McCarthy was drafted there would have been plenty of people who compared it to Jones. "Typical Mara QB" "not a ton of upside"
A lot of people want it both ways here.
McCarthy is in a fantastic situation... good OL, incredible weapons, QB guru coach. Nix also has a shot to play early given Denver's QB situation. Should be interesting.
McCarthy is in a fantastic situation... good OL, incredible weapons, QB guru coach. Nix also has a shot to play early given Denver's QB situation. Should be interesting.
I’d say the odds are good that at least one hits.
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opinion. I really think he is grasping at straws, the reason the Giants have been dog shit franchise for a decade is the have not had good drafting, that is everything. It's not because of Daniel Jones.
Reread what you wrote. Dan Jones is exhibit A for bad draft choice. We all knew he was a massive reach at 6th overall, and as time has proven, rightly so.
I agree DJ at 6 is a pick that has not worked out great and was a reach pick, but it was only one pick and a pick that doesn't scream to me complete bust. The problem is the whole, our drafts on a whole have been shit. Dex and AT are all we have done right for a decade. That is awful for any franchise to have 2 really good players in the course of 10 years.
It puts him in a more pressure spot next year though.
Me too. I want this to be a fun, gritty team. Maybe it's with Lock.
Now he's back on his "Mara loves Jones" kick.
Seems like he's playing both sides of the street.
I think you have to buy into the ever-changing sentiment of the moment to accept Lombardi's view.
Schoen comes in with plenty of latitude to implement the roster vision he has, although it's noteworthy that in that offseason, Mara did make the "we've done everything possible to screw this kid up" statement that supported DJ.
Still, Schoen clearly has enough autonomy to decline DJ's 5th year option with no interference from Mara (or else it wouldn't have happened). That said, there would have been no sentiment to defend picking up DJ's option, coming off his performance in 2020 and 2021, and perhaps more importantly a season-ending neck injury in 2021.
Then 2022 happens. The Giants clearly outperform all expectations, and DJ is at the center of that, with an efficient (if not prolific) campaign in a relatively QB-friendly offense, and the team not only reaches the postseason but wins a playoff game on the road. Here, the sentiment of the moment is much more in favor of DJ, and we see Mara embrace that with his "WE'RE BACK!" declaration. This is followed by the Giants agreeing to a very significant contract with DJ.
Then 2023 happens. And much of the same factors from the 2021-22 offseason are back in play - mediocre performance from DJ, season-ending injury (and another neck injury). There are obvious extenuating circumstances (chief among them, the OL), and some effort made by Mara (and Schoen, to be fair) to defend DJ, but the overwhelming narrative is about the Giants trying to trade up for Drake Maye. The sentiment of the moment, of course, being unfavorable to DJ and the draft scenario giving many fans and pundits reason to pine for a QB.
If you buy the Lombardi version, it relies on Mara only being able to really push for DJ when it's reasonable. It seems that when performance and (probably more importantly) injury questions are too obvious to ignore, Mara's ability to advocate for DJ becomes more difficult, his desire to avoid appearing like a meddling owner too much to overcome, and his passion for DJ recedes (publicly).
This isn't really that different from the way Mara handled the Eli fiasco in 2017. He wants what he wants but he's unwilling to be publicly blamed or disliked for it, so if public sentiment is too strong, Mara bends to it. Otherwise, he wants to remain loyal to his QB1, whichever Cutcliffe disciple that may be.
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Lombardi is the one insisting that the Giants tried to trade up for Maye.
Now he's back on his "Mara loves Jones" kick.
Seems like he's playing both sides of the street.
I think you have to buy into the ever-changing sentiment of the moment to accept Lombardi's view.
Schoen comes in with plenty of latitude to implement the roster vision he has, although it's noteworthy that in that offseason, Mara did make the "we've done everything possible to screw this kid up" statement that supported DJ.
Still, Schoen clearly has enough autonomy to decline DJ's 5th year option with no interference from Mara (or else it wouldn't have happened). That said, there would have been no sentiment to defend picking up DJ's option, coming off his performance in 2020 and 2021, and perhaps more importantly a season-ending neck injury in 2021.
Then 2022 happens. The Giants clearly outperform all expectations, and DJ is at the center of that, with an efficient (if not prolific) campaign in a relatively QB-friendly offense, and the team not only reaches the postseason but wins a playoff game on the road. Here, the sentiment of the moment is much more in favor of DJ, and we see Mara embrace that with his "WE'RE BACK!" declaration. This is followed by the Giants agreeing to a very significant contract with DJ.
Then 2023 happens. And much of the same factors from the 2021-22 offseason are back in play - mediocre performance from DJ, season-ending injury (and another neck injury). There are obvious extenuating circumstances (chief among them, the OL), and some effort made by Mara (and Schoen, to be fair) to defend DJ, but the overwhelming narrative is about the Giants trying to trade up for Drake Maye. The sentiment of the moment, of course, being unfavorable to DJ and the draft scenario giving many fans and pundits reason to pine for a QB.
If you buy the Lombardi version, it relies on Mara only being able to really push for DJ when it's reasonable. It seems that when performance and (probably more importantly) injury questions are too obvious to ignore, Mara's ability to advocate for DJ becomes more difficult, his desire to avoid appearing like a meddling owner too much to overcome, and his passion for DJ recedes (publicly).
This isn't really that different from the way Mara handled the Eli fiasco in 2017. He wants what he wants but he's unwilling to be publicly blamed or disliked for it, so if public sentiment is too strong, Mara bends to it. Otherwise, he wants to remain loyal to his QB1, whichever Cutcliffe disciple that may be.
Good post, makes a lot of sense when you step back and look at the big picture.
Jack Stroud is a troll. He doesn’t say Jones CAN be an elite QB. He insists he already is. And the other day he had the balls to say he’s better than Joe Burrow. This is not the thinking of a sane person. Nobody believes the things he says. He’s a clown troll and we need to start ignoring him. He’s toying with you guys
I agree. He's a troll seeking attention.
The risk now is whether they're treating the position too preciously, and letting great become the enemy of good.
It's a little tough to swallow they're drawing a hard line in front of guys KOC and Payton voted as the future, when their last vote on that honor was Daniel Jones.
Schoen tried everything possible to move up to get Maye. Pats said no. He didn’t like JJM. Penix or Nix. Obviously making thst big an offer for Maye he’s pretty much saying he’s done with Jones. It has nothing to do with love for him. He’s going to be on the team this year regardless. They’re not going to kick the guy while he’s down. What else are they supposed to say about a player on the team? They were literally praising Wink at the press conference and a few hours later he was fired.
Just because they didn’t draft a QB this year has nothing to do with their love of Jones. The constant calls to trade up prove that. I’m 99.99% sure he’ll be off the team next year.
I can’t believe we’re going to have to hear about this every single day until the draft next year. JFC.
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The interest in Maye was great, but the choice to skip QB altogether after Maye was drafted prolongs the relationship and the failures.
This stuff ain't going away until he plays up to par, or is gone.
Doesn't that align with what you wanted though? No on McCarthy/Penix/Nix at six and if I recall you didn't want to address QB later either with just six picks? My apologies if I'm incorrect.
Yes, but for many others, not the case.
McCarthy is in a fantastic situation... good OL, incredible weapons, QB guru coach. Nix also has a shot to play early given Denver's QB situation. Should be interesting.
If McCarthy does well in Minnesota, doesn’t mean he’d do well here. He plays in a dome, has the best wr in the NFL, WR2 is a 2nd year player who’s already stud. Hockenson is anywhere from #2-4TE in the NFL, Jones is. Very good 3 down RB and a solid OL. McCarthy is in the absolute perfect position to be great. If he doesn’t perform, it’s all on him. Penix also has a great cast around him if he plays.
New Englands offense is more comparable to ours. Let’s see how Maye does. And Let’s see how Nix does.
Correct. There is no answer for that other than Schoen controls the roster. And if someone does try to answer that, they are going to hurt themselves getting their brain tied-up and twisted into knots. So, he owns Jones.
And if Mara is the Svengali in this, why did re-signing Jones come down to the final few minutes before Jones could be tagged or declared a free agent in March 2023? Wouldn't Mara have sewn it up hours, days, weeks before that deadline?
Further, why would Mara even let Schoen entertain the thought - if true - of trading up for a QB? Wouldn't Mara put the kibosh on that once he heard the idea?
Look, my distrust of Mara is all over this board for a decade. But what keeps getting discounted in all of this - IMV - is Mara found a GM and HC who are actually very fond of Jones, especially after the playoffs berth and win, and are more than comfortable still moving forward with him.
I also don't discount the possibility that maybe Schoen and Daboll aren't that great at evaluating QBs on their own.
So, help me understand why we keep giving Schoen the benefit of the doubt? Carving out the QB issue, why should I be so impressed with the rest of his roster build?
But he knew he would get clicks.
Jones isn't the guy that should be bearing the bring of the criticism. Every time he fucks up the camera should focus on the Schoen and Mara up in the box.
To paraphrase a BBIer, you are what you spend your money on. And at the time of signing Jones was tied for the 7th highest paid player in the NFL.
It was always going to take something very compelling to move them off Jones. It was never going to be a torn ACL or stinger. A lot of people, some on this thread talked a lot of shit about that, and they were wrong.
It appears the only scenario that would move them off Jones was a top 3, blue chip prospect.
Jones isn't the guy that should be bearing the bring of the criticism. Every time he fucks up the camera should focus on the Schoen and Mara up in the box.
This is who our team is.
Love you Terps... Go Giants!
Then things go live and he falls apart but still the tease of physical talents remain. So coaches and GMs being whom they are, they think they can unlock/fix him, etc...
I refuse to believe he's in any danger of losing his job as starter here until he actually does or something medical happens. He just fits too many checkboxes that Mara loves.
Then things go live and he falls apart but still the tease of physical talents remain. So coaches and GMs being whom they are, they think they can unlock/fix him, etc...
I refuse to believe he's in any danger of losing his job as starter here until he actually does or something medical happens. He just fits too many checkboxes that Mara loves.
What are those check boxes?
Now he's back on his "Mara loves Jones" kick.
Seems like he's playing both sides of the street.
Consistency would necessitate logic. And you can see from all the flag waving, that's not what sells either. When Lombardi becomes the mouth piece for your reasoning... LOL, I don't know what to tell ya.
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In comment 16505598 JonC said:
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The interest in Maye was great, but the choice to skip QB altogether after Maye was drafted prolongs the relationship and the failures.
This stuff ain't going away until he plays up to par, or is gone.
Doesn't that align with what you wanted though? No on McCarthy/Penix/Nix at six and if I recall you didn't want to address QB later either with just six picks? My apologies if I'm incorrect.
Yes, but for many others, not the case.
That’s fine. But for better or worse many on this board look to you as the voice of reason so posting what you did and only mention that what you posted is “others” thoughts when called out is a bit lame. I know you’re frustrated by where this team has been, as we all are. I wanted them to take a QB. But you can’t call them not taking a QB outside of Maye a failure when Thayer did exactly what you said you’d have done pre draft.
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If John Mara is so enamored with Jones why did he allow Schoen to decline the 5th year option?
Correct. There is no answer for that other than Schoen controls the roster. And if someone does try to answer that, they are going to hurt themselves getting their brain tied-up and twisted into knots. So, he owns Jones.
And if Mara is the Svengali in this, why did re-signing Jones come down to the final few minutes before Jones could be tagged or declared a free agent in March 2023? Wouldn't Mara have sewn it up hours, days, weeks before that deadline?
Further, why would Mara even let Schoen entertain the thought - if true - of trading up for a QB? Wouldn't Mara put the kibosh on that once he heard the idea?
Look, my distrust of Mara is all over this board for a decade. But what keeps getting discounted in all of this - IMV - is Mara found a GM and HC who are actually very fond of Jones, especially after the playoffs berth and win, and are more than comfortable still moving forward with him.
I also don't discount the possibility that maybe Schoen and Daboll aren't that great at evaluating QBs on their own.
So, help me understand why we keep giving Schoen the benefit of the doubt? Carving out the QB issue, why should I be so impressed with the rest of his roster build?
Have you forgotten Dan Jones 2021 season? Nobody was exercising his 5th year option after that, especially considering he ended the season with neck surgery.
Sy's QB ratings:
McCarthy 84
Jones 80
Nix 80
Penix 79
Yeah, but the issue I see here is that these are ratings coming out of college. Jones had a decent rating but proved he can't do it, a lot of these guys do. So since we have the data that Jones in the NFL is a backup, why not take McCarthy. Maybe he will work out? These guys always get similar ratings, some work out some don't. Why stick with an 80 who after 6 years you know can't do it, when you can get another 80 who may/may not do it?
Mara loves him. We all wish Mara would've paid him $160M to be his pool boy instead of his QB. But as fans, we are subject to the whims of a weak, insecure, jock sniffing owner. It's sad, but that's where we are. All we can hope for is public pressure and the fans to absolutely lay it on once we get back to 3 and outs all 1st half.
I would have drafted McCarthy at six. However, I definitely see people playing both sides. In the lead up to the draft we had plenty of posters criticizing McCarthy and implying he's nowhere near worth six. Most would laugh at the thought of either Penix or Nix at six. But now, it's "how could NYG pass on them at six?" It just feels playing it both sides. And this from someone who wanted QB.
Lastly, the next QB is getting a lot of time. Probably three years minimum, probably four. So be careful settling for someone just "better than Jones".
Unless he has a phenomenal year and stays healthy, Jones is gone after this season. And if does both, then he'll be gone in 2026, when the dead cap hit for cutting him is only $11M IIRC. Jones is now officially at best a "bridge starter" for a year or two, and even that isn't guaranteed, since despite what the Giants are saying right now, he might not be ready to start opening day. And even if he is, Lock might still beat him out.
So if he has 2 very good seasons you want to cut him????? So regardless to how he performs you want to cut him …. That’s what wild
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Seems to me that one could make the argument that McCarthy, Penix, and Nix fall into that category too.
Sy's QB ratings:
McCarthy 84
Jones 80
Nix 80
Penix 79
Yeah, but the issue I see here is that these are ratings coming out of college. Jones had a decent rating but proved he can't do it, a lot of these guys do. So since we have the data that Jones in the NFL is a backup, why not take McCarthy. Maybe he will work out? These guys always get similar ratings, some work out some don't. Why stick with an 80 who after 6 years you know can't do it, when you can get another 80 who may/may not do it?
I don't know how many times I can say the same thing.
The Giants tried to trade up for Maye. Was that realistic? Probably not given New England's QB situation. But they tried.
They heavily scouted the entire QB class. Three were off the board before the Giants picked. So they could have taken the 4th QB, a guy who is more a projection, or draft the "sure thing" WR who many said would have been the top non-QB in a normal draft. They chose to draft the impact WR.
You can make a case they should have "reached" and taken McCarthy or Penix. You can make the case they should have taken the WR.
Only time will tell which move was correct. But neither would have been crazy.
The worst outcome would have been to blow another top 10 pick.
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In comment 16505657 Eric from BBI said:
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Seems to me that one could make the argument that McCarthy, Penix, and Nix fall into that category too.
Sy's QB ratings:
McCarthy 84
Jones 80
Nix 80
Penix 79
Yeah, but the issue I see here is that these are ratings coming out of college. Jones had a decent rating but proved he can't do it, a lot of these guys do. So since we have the data that Jones in the NFL is a backup, why not take McCarthy. Maybe he will work out? These guys always get similar ratings, some work out some don't. Why stick with an 80 who after 6 years you know can't do it, when you can get another 80 who may/may not do it?
I don't know how many times I can say the same thing.
The Giants tried to trade up for Maye. Was that realistic? Probably not given New England's QB situation. But they tried.
They heavily scouted the entire QB class. Three were off the board before the Giants picked. So they could have taken the 4th QB, a guy who is more a projection, or draft the "sure thing" WR who many said would have been the top non-QB in a normal draft. They chose to draft the impact WR.
You can make a case they should have "reached" and taken McCarthy or Penix. You can make the case they should have taken the WR.
Only time will tell which move was correct. But neither would have been crazy.
The worst outcome would have been to blow another top 10 pick.
thats probably the biggest point, at pick 6, you pick QB 4 or QB 5, first, every pundit says its a reach anyhow, and with an evolving roster, would those guys succeed? Pick 1 2 or 3 are probably expected to overcome these things, but 6 QBs in 12 picks, that would seem like QB needy teams shopping hungry. Time will tell, obviously, but I can't exactly connect Nabers as an endorsement of Jones.
Duggan in his winners/losers piece today said that Jones was the biggest winner of the Giants draft since his replacement wasn't picked.
Wanting to trade up means nothing for 2024. Jones is the presumptive qb1 as long as he's healthy. And if he plays like trash the only people who can own that are Shoen and Daboll. He's entrenched as -their- qb now.
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Giants tried to trade up for Maye, and were apparently willing to offer a nice haul of picks to do so, including our #1 next year, which could easily be a top 10 pick. That by itself proves that Schoen, Daboll, and yes, even Mara, were willing to move on from Jones right now.
Unless he has a phenomenal year and stays healthy, Jones is gone after this season. And if does both, then he'll be gone in 2026, when the dead cap hit for cutting him is only $11M IIRC. Jones is now officially at best a "bridge starter" for a year or two, and even that isn't guaranteed, since despite what the Giants are saying right now, he might not be ready to start opening day. And even if he is, Lock might still beat him out.
So if he has 2 very good seasons you want to cut him????? So regardless to how he performs you want to cut him …. That’s what wild
Jones' salary is $46.5M in 2026. His total cap number is $58.6M. Cutting him saves $47.5M against the cap. He would have to be a top five QB this year and in 2025 to justify keeping him at those numbers, especially given his injury history.
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JonA1979 said:, but I can't exactly connect Nabers as an endorsement of Jones.
Duggan in his winners/losers piece today said that Jones was the biggest winner of the Giants draft since his replacement wasn't picked.
Wanting to trade up means nothing for 2024. Jones is the presumptive qb1 as long as he's healthy. And if he plays like trash the only people who can own that are Shoen and Daboll. He's entrenched as -their- qb now.
I don't think so. I think there will be a short leash on Jones this year.
Have you forgotten Dan Jones 2021 season? Nobody was exercising his 5th year option after that, especially considering he ended the season with neck surgery.
Just for my own edification...
Mara let Schoen have that easy call on the 5th year option. But Mara then took back the reigns and handled the contract in March of 2023.
Do I have that right?
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In comment 16505782
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JonA1979 said:, but I can't exactly connect Nabers as an endorsement of Jones.
Duggan in his winners/losers piece today said that Jones was the biggest winner of the Giants draft since his replacement wasn't picked.
Wanting to trade up means nothing for 2024. Jones is the presumptive qb1 as long as he's healthy. And if he plays like trash the only people who can own that are Shoen and Daboll. He's entrenched as -their- qb now.
I don't think so. I think there will be a short leash on Jones this year.
I've said this many times. Obviously I don't have any inside knowledge. But we know Daboll desperately wants to develop a vertical passing game. They spent the #6 overall pick on the most explosive player maker in the draft. Lock is not a great QB, but if there is one thing he can do and is totally willing to do, it's throw the ball down field. Daboll is taking over play calling this year for christ sakes, by all expectations. I mean, do the math. Do we honestly believe Daboll is going to call plays while stubbornly sticking with a QB who refuses to do anything but underneath check downs? Come on. We heard what the Seattle GM had to say about Lock's decision to come here. Simple arithmetic here.
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In comment 16505782
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JonA1979 said:, but I can't exactly connect Nabers as an endorsement of Jones.
Duggan in his winners/losers piece today said that Jones was the biggest winner of the Giants draft since his replacement wasn't picked.
Wanting to trade up means nothing for 2024. Jones is the presumptive qb1 as long as he's healthy. And if he plays like trash the only people who can own that are Shoen and Daboll. He's entrenched as -their- qb now.
I don't think so. I think there will be a short leash on Jones this year.
A short leash with the back up being Lock seems like questionable decision making imo
Mara loves him. We all wish Mara would've paid him $160M to be his pool boy instead of his QB. But as fans, we are subject to the whims of a weak, insecure, jock sniffing owner. It's sad, but that's where we are. All we can hope for is public pressure and the fans to absolutely lay it on once we get back to 3 and outs all 1st half.
Agree 100% but sadly I get the feeling majority of our fanbase still supports DJ and believes he will magically turn it around sooner or later. Not to mention most other fanbases would have had the pitchforks out after 3 years.
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Have you forgotten Dan Jones 2021 season? Nobody was exercising his 5th year option after that, especially considering he ended the season with neck surgery.
Just for my own edification...
Mara let Schoen have that easy call on the 5th year option. But Mara then took back the reigns and handled the contract in March of 2023.
Do I have that right?
The Maras don't do it Jerry Jones style. They just tend to put their thumb on the scale.
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Have you forgotten Dan Jones 2021 season? Nobody was exercising his 5th year option after that, especially considering he ended the season with neck surgery.
Just for my own edification...
Mara let Schoen have that easy call on the 5th year option. But Mara then took back the reigns and handled the contract in March of 2023.
Do I have that right?
You seem to really be dismissing how 2022 played out. Even the biggest Jones apologists weren't advocating for the 5th year option to be picked up. That was such an easy decision.
A playoff win for the first time in over a decade? You think Schoen could have walked into Mara's office and say he's going to let Jones walk? After Mara declared Jones the franchise QB and called the Giants being "back".
Come on, this isn't a black and white issue.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman’s help) and said: “Hey I can’t screw up everything, I gotta get something right.”
Asked what he thought of his quarterback, Steve Tisch smiled and said: “The world.”
Just read the fucking quotes. This was a pending FA. But, let's compare Schoen to situations like Ryan Poles and Adam Peters. It's nowhere near the same.
The Maras had their guy. Schoen absolutely gets the chance to draft/trade for another QB.
And bw, considering your very vocal concerns of McCarthy in the draft lead up, surely you understand Schoen passing on him at 6.
Link - ( New Window )
"I've said it all year," coach Brian Daboll told reporters after the game. "He's been good for us. He continues to be good for us. And he played a good game. I think there's a lot of other people that played good games too to help him play a good game. He'll be the first to admit it. As the leader of our football team, I'm proud of him."
If John Mara is so enamored with Jones why did he allow Schoen to decline the 5th year option?
Jay on the Island : 5/3/2024 4:55 pm : link : reply
They are so in love with Daniel Jones that they offered NE two 1st round picks for a chance to draft his replacement.
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Jay on the Island : 5/3/2024 4:56 pm : link : reply
If John Mara is so enamored with Jones why did he allow Schoen to decline the 5th year option?
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Also
Jay on the Island : 5/3/2024 4:55 pm : link : reply
They are so in love with Daniel Jones that they offered NE two 1st round picks for a chance to draft his replacement.
Ultimately, it's both. The NYG organization likes Jones, but picking Nabers doesn't mean they are "all in" on him either.
You've got BBI posters upset they didn't take a QB very few if any had top ten grades on as a proclamation that they are still all in on Jones. Come on.
I just really can't get over the fact that they can't pull the trigger on ANY QB in any draft in any round for years now. Such myopic thinking, especially in a league dominated by that position and the fact that evaluating college prospects is an imperfect science.
I just really can't get over the fact that they can't pull the trigger on ANY QB in any draft in any round for years now. Such myopic thinking, especially in a league dominated by that position and the fact that evaluating college prospects is an imperfect science.
100%
I disagree. I think Jones is perfectly reflective of their flaws. They stretched out Manning way beyond his shelf life, then over drafted a flawed player who turned out to have durability and talent issues.
Lot of players and coaches contributed to the successful 2022 season. Three key players on on O were Thomas, Barkley and....Jones.
All-in isn't the right term, no.
But I do think everyone is making too much out of temp checking with New England.
The Giants are the couple who bought a house they like but don't love, and check Zillow from time-to-time. A really perfect brand new house came on the market down the street, and they made the highest offer they qualified for. But it wasn't enough.
It doesn't mean they're unhappy with their house. Not when there are other brand new houses available that they can afford with cash, and choose not to buy.
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I don't think they are all-in on Jones in the slightest.
All-in isn't the right term, no.
But I do think everyone is making too much out of temp checking with New England.
The Giants are the couple who bought a house they like but don't love, and check Zillow from time-to-time. A really perfect brand new house came on the market down the street, and they made the highest offer they qualified for. But it wasn't enough.
It doesn't mean they're unhappy with their house. Not when there are other brand new houses available that they can afford with cash, and choose not to buy.
Yeah, I think its a few rungs higher than a temp checking or an occasional click on Zillow. Schoen and his team scouted this QB class from Oct 2023 thru April 2024 as hard as (if not harder) than any team in the entire NFL.
They don't diss on their house but Schoen & Co. does want to move to a different neighborhood. It is just incredulous how they refuse to take any swing in any draft in any round though.
There are only so many times their actions indicate they like Jones, before it's unequivocal they like Jones.
There are only so many times their actions indicate they like Jones, before it's unequivocal they like Jones.
Again, no dispute they like Jones. However, they seem overly gun-shy to pulling any trigger on what could be another bad investment.
And in that fashion are limiting their upside, no matter how well they build up the rest of the roster.
There are only so many times their actions indicate they like Jones, before it's unequivocal they like Jones.
Again, no dispute they like Jones. However, they seem overly gun-shy to pulling any trigger on what could be another bad investment.
And in that fashion are limiting their upside, no matter how well they build up the rest of the roster.
I agree. They are paralyzed.
They like Jones, and the only way they'll replace him is with the perfect prospect.
It's classic great as the enemy of good thinking.
I don't think they need to restructure him, because if they need cap room this year, they can get it from Thomas.
Along those lines, make no mistake, if Jones has an acceptable year he's holding out for a new contract.
No chance in hell he goes into 25/26 with zero guaranteed money.
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They're well researched, but when it came to real action, they made what's been described as a perfunctory offer to New England. And with prospects KOC and Payton deemed as their future, the Giants passed.
There are only so many times their actions indicate they like Jones, before it's unequivocal they like Jones.
Again, no dispute they like Jones. However, they seem overly gun-shy to pulling any trigger on what could be another bad investment.
And in that fashion are limiting their upside, no matter how well they build up the rest of the roster.
I agree. They are paralyzed.
They like Jones, and the only way they'll replace him is with the perfect prospect.
It's classic great as the enemy of good thinking.
I wouldn’t call Maye a perfect prospect
Yet….they tried to get him
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John Mara was stopped in the middle of this joyous Giants locker room and marveled at the way his franchise quarterback performed.
“To me, it was the poise,” Mara said. “That building is as loud as can be, and you look at him, and he’s in complete control of the offense. It gave me a lot of confidence that I don’t care how many times they score, we’re gonna score more.”
I asked Mara when it became a finality to him that Daniel Jones would be his Quarterback of the Future.
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“It was a while ago I think … he just keeps getting better and better every week,” Mara said.
Mara laughed when it was suggested that he got the succession plan for Eli right (yes, with former GM Dave Gettleman’s help) and said: “Hey I can’t screw up everything, I gotta get something right.”
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Kid brother Chris Mara: “We got somebody going forward.”
Asked what he thought of his quarterback, Steve Tisch smiled and said: “The world.”
Just read the fucking quotes. This was a pending FA. But, let's compare Schoen to situations like Ryan Poles and Adam Peters. It's nowhere near the same.
The Maras had their guy. Schoen absolutely gets the chance to draft/trade for another QB.
And bw, considering your very vocal concerns of McCarthy in the draft lead up, surely you understand Schoen passing on him at 6. Link - ( New Window )
I really wish the Maras never spoke again to the media. It’s embarrassing.
My thoughts exactly.
Lock is more like the cleaning lady that visits weekly, who you sometimes fantasize about but never do anything with..
Cheating would be drafting a QB high.
Do you how many people get fooled by they the person claiming they are “going to get a divorce but the timing isnt right” and it never happens?
Just read the fucking quotes. This was a pending FA. But, let's compare Schoen to situations like Ryan Poles and Adam Peters. It's nowhere near the same.
The Maras had their guy. Schoen absolutely gets the chance to draft/trade for another QB.
And bw, considering your very vocal concerns of McCarthy in the draft lead up, surely you understand Schoen passing on him at 6. Link - ( New Window )
Let me ask you a hypothetical that's going to require some imagination.
Let's say Jones turns it around and has a breakout season in 2024, statistically and the team qualifies for the playoffs. And he erases any doubts that he's the man for 2025.
Who is getting the credit for sticking with Jones? Mara or Schoen?
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Just read the fucking quotes. This was a pending FA. But, let's compare Schoen to situations like Ryan Poles and Adam Peters. It's nowhere near the same.
The Maras had their guy. Schoen absolutely gets the chance to draft/trade for another QB.
And bw, considering your very vocal concerns of McCarthy in the draft lead up, surely you understand Schoen passing on him at 6. Link - ( New Window )
Let me ask you a hypothetical that's going to require some imagination.
Let's say Jones turns it around and has a breakout season in 2024, statistically and the team qualifies for the playoffs. And he erases any doubts that he's the man for 2025.
Who is getting the credit for sticking with Jones? Mara or Schoen?
daboll. kidding. kind of, but i guess not really?
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Just read the fucking quotes. This was a pending FA. But, let's compare Schoen to situations like Ryan Poles and Adam Peters. It's nowhere near the same.
The Maras had their guy. Schoen absolutely gets the chance to draft/trade for another QB.
And bw, considering your very vocal concerns of McCarthy in the draft lead up, surely you understand Schoen passing on him at 6. Link - ( New Window )
Let me ask you a hypothetical that's going to require some imagination.
Let's say Jones turns it around and has a breakout season in 2024, statistically and the team qualifies for the playoffs. And he erases any doubts that he's the man for 2025.
Who is getting the credit for sticking with Jones? Mara or Schoen?
That would be a pelt in Mara's belt imo where he will say patience came through just like 2007 and 2011.
Schoen is not free of blame. I'm not trying to imply that. My main point is not every GM job is created equal and Schoen inherited a very difficult situation with two top ten picks on the roster who the owner loved.
This franchise was really bad and then 2022 happened with Jones & Barkley playing a significant role.
Is the question really who's getting the credit? Or is it who's taking the credit?
Because the latter will absolutely be Mara regardless of how heavy anyone believes his thumb has been on the scale.